Taoism Vs Buddhism

[Marblehead]

Also the lack of humour in Buddhism I have hard Taoists mention a few times before but if you see someone like the Dalai Lama he is full of humour and laughter, for example if you go up to him and you have a beard even if you are a high lama he will pull it like a cheeky school child just for a joke.

 

 

Yep. We need to cultivate our sense of humor. It's great medicine.

[surfingbudda]

Hello Everyone,

 

I just want to add my input to this thread. I actually started this thread some 500 comments ago back when I first found this wonderful forum and had no clue what Taoism was other than it seemed very cool and interesting. Well now many months later, I have come to the conclusion that both Taoism and Buddhism are very amazing paths which I believe ultimately reach the same destination. Kinda like different rivers which end up in the same ocean. Both Taoism and Buddhism are very beautiful philosophies and ways to live life to the fullest. I think the key is to not focus and try to pinpoint insignificant differences and prove which one is better than the other, but to accept both as great guidelines to spirituality. I actually believe that almost every religion out there at its core is not too different from one another, just through the ages they have become watered down and morphed through politics and power to appear separate from one another. I think the true key is that everyone should have their own unique perspective of spirituality and follow whatever resonates with you and feels true to your heart. I have a universal and personal spiritual belief with aspects from many different ways and paths. I think what not to do is to blindly follow something because your told it is right, instead of following something because you feel and know it is right. Alright well just felt like dropping into the thread I created, I haven't actually been following it for a while so I do not know if someone has said things very similar to me, if so than great

 

Best to everyone and their spiritual practices ,

SB

[2netis]

Hello Everyone,

 

I actually believe that almost every religion out there at its core is not too different from one another, just through the ages they have become watered down and morphed through politics and power to appear separate from one another.

 

Truly, truly. Embarrassed to say that my eyes are a bit wet reading this. Thank you so much for this. I agree because the starting point and the "ending" point is found to be the same point. Blockbuster thread in my eyes. Best wishes!

[Marblehead]

Hello Everyone,

 

I just want to add my input to this thread.

 

So it was you who started all this? I had forgotten. Hehehe.

 

Nice post and I basically agree with you.

 

I agree that much of the perceived differences between the two are because of the original questions asked by the founders. Different questions = different answers.

[2netis]

Also the lack of humor in Buddhism I have hard Taoists mention a few times before but if you see someone like the Dalai Lama he is full of humor and laughter, for example if you go up to him and you have a beard even if you are a high lama he will pull it like a cheeky school child just for a joke.

 

Hi again Jet, Appreciate this...I was pretty sure I'd rowed this little boat right up into a dry ravine here ....;-)

 

I had no idea about HHDL's pulling on beards but I've heard him speak a couple of times and there is a twinkle in his eye and voice that is irrepressible - even with all that he has to deal with. A remarkable man for sure.

 

I re-read the BKF thing and it seems that much , maybe all, his exposure to Buddhism is academic. Not quite the best way to recognize the deep link to the Tao, it seems to me. I do know, and suspect that you also sense this, that many many Buddhists struggle with this emptiness idea...as an idea. I did so for some years until finally one day I read - for the 25th time - the Diamond Sutra. I quit looking at the part about "have the thought not based in anything" and for just a moment I heard the whole thing speak to me right through the chair and the sunlight I was sitting in. Uncanny! How could I ever ignore the world As It Is again? It IS the entry...the middle way...which emptiness wants. The whole thing, nothing hidden, nothing missing. Incredible! Absolutely everything!

 

The TTC says:

 

#2 (part)

"Being and nonbeing

arise together:

hard and easy

complete each other

long and short

shape each other

....

The things of this world

exist, they are;

you cant refuse them."

 

And then after that it became so obvious to me how intention, in the moment and certainly no where else, forms the next moment and the next. Actually, I'm quite convinced that this intention, in this very moment , changes karma - Buddhist Causes And Conditions Karma. I've even started writing a novel about exactly this. And....lots of humor in it too!

 

For humor from a Buddhist, here is a Tendai monk - now a Zen something-or-other, in some wry, off color and definitely irreverent humor video clips. This teacher of Buddhism has an amazing depth.

http://www.youtube.com/user/expandcontract#p/u/73/usFL7YstLnY

 

Best wishes and thanks for ringing in.

[C T]

Awesome !

One of the best posts I've ever read here on TaoBums.

 

 

Touche!

 

I kept coming back to read and re-read this post. Reflected like a true sage... your kindness, humility, forbearance, insight and pleasant disposition shone thru in this post. There is much to be learnt from your wisdom.

Edited March 17, 2011 by CowTao

[Mark Saltveit]

Yep. We need to cultivate our sense of humor. It's great medicine.

 

> Dalai Lama

Tibetans I've met (in Tibet) all had great senses of humor. Hard to know how much is religion, since I didn't meet any non-religious Tibetans. Could be national or cultural too.

 

Speaking as a Daoist standup comedian, I got baffled responses from Buddhist magazines -- Shambala Sun and Tricycle to be precise -- when I submitted a piece of short humor ("American Zen Sayings"). In fact, if anyone has suggestions for a place to get it published, I would appreciate it. It's funnier than most of the stuff you get if you google "Buddhist Humor," certainly. Thanks!

 

I think it's safe to say the the DDJ and especially Zhuang Zi are the funniest books of religious philosophy around. (Possibly excepting Osho, who I have not read, but has a rep. I visited Rashneeshpuram back in the day though and it was definitely not fun or funny. I do prize the picture of my teenage self at the corner of Tao and Nirvana streets, though.)

[Marblehead]

... and especially Zhuang Zi ...

 

Yeah, I think he would have been a wonderful person to talk with.

[Birch]

A Daoist stand-up comic :-)

Post 'em here!

 

I need a good laugh:-)

[2netis]

]These 2 books[/url] may well interest you.

 

Thank you both - CowTao too - for your kind words. Nice to meet you. You know of course that one just gets out of the way of the words of our teachers so they might shine through! In any case I'm glad something here clicked for you. I'm honored to be here among so much skill and wisdom.

 

The links you give to the HwaYen info is really great. You are reading my mind. I've been looking into the Flower Garland for some time now and not too much is available on it. This info is really welcome at this time! My fave book so far is the Garma Chang version: THE BUDDHIST TEACHING OF TOTALITY.

 

Feel free to pm me if you want to share more!

 

Sincere best wishes

[2netis]

Touche!

 

 

You are way too kind and its an honor to just be here! Best wishes to all.

[Mark Saltveit]

A Daoist stand-up comic :-)

Post 'em here!

 

I need a good laugh:-)

 

Well, my act isn't about Dao per se, it more informs my approach to this discipline. Comedy is part of my practice, you might say.

I perform for mostly regular, small town Western US people, you have to connect. Tzu jan references aren't going to fly,

 

The only joke I do about it is mention Daoism, then say "I'm really into it. I've actually become a Daoist missionary - which means I stay home and mind my own goddamned business."

 

Mark

[Marblehead]

The only joke I do about it is mention Daoism, then say "I'm really into it. I've actually become a Daoist missionary - which means I stay home and mind my own goddamned business."

 

Mark

 

 

Cute. Hehehe.

[Maddie]

Hey Drew. Ok sometimes the wheels turn a little slow, but it dawned on me that you had said a week or two ago something about most of the major religions being patriarchal but Taoism being older and matriarchal. Would you mind elaborating on that?

[voidisyinyang]

Hey Drew. Ok sometimes the wheels turn a little slow, but it dawned on me that you had said a week or two ago something about most of the major religions being patriarchal but Taoism being older and matriarchal. Would you mind elaborating on that?

 

 

Yeah so the oldest philosophy of India is Samkhya and it's based on the "three gunas" and Taoism has the same thing - the "yang" energy is like raja and the Emptiness is like sattva and yin is like tamas of Samkhya.

 

So we think of tamas as a negative thing but as alchemy teaches -- it starts and ends with "lead" or jing energy - and so the denser emotional physical energy becomes the means to focus to create stronger yang energy as prana and then to go into deeper Emptiness as shen energy.

 

I mean it is a "three in one unity" -- so anyway..... to say it's really "four" gets into nondualism....

 

But so if you consider the oldest philosphy of India - even China - you get into the secret Afro-dravidian cultures from the original cultures out of Africa that spread around the coasts of the world back around 70,000 BCE.....

 

Anyway so these older cultures -- the language is tonal like Tamil language in India - the trance dance training is given stronger focus -- like the origin of Taoism is considered to be from matrifocal shamans - females - doing trance dancing.

 

So also yang is the Perfect Fifth music interval and yin is the perfect fourth and so this is also found in Pythagorean philosophy - but people just look this over. Actually all human cultures have this 1-4-5 music intervals. Only in the West were these tunings then "compromised" into a materialistic philosophy that is the secret origin for Western mathematics, science, etc.

 

Anyway so the original human culture - the Bushmen of Africa going back to 100,000 BCE -- that is a matrifocal culture. The oldest ritual is the menstruation inititation trance dance and it's found in the two oldest tribes with slightly different languages - so that means the music trance dance ritual is the common denominator of human origins from 100,000 BCE.

 

How was it matrifocal -- it has to do with language originating out of lunar synchronization with menstruation and this being the jing Earth-Lunar energy but as psychic energy it connects with the pre-natal vitality as spirit energy - and this is a cosmic energy of other higher holographic dimensions..... A sort of psychic consciousness of the Earth-- Moon relation that governs life on Earth through the information stored in water which is what we are made up mainly. So the Emptiness is reflected materially through the female energy.

 

Yeah so in the original human cultures the females controlled land relations as the rights to water, etc. But the main principle was that "N/om" should not be hoarded - the energy should be shared. The females sang all night to transmit their jing energy aka N/om energy into the males and then the males trance danced all night to transform the N/om energy into !Xia the trance laser holographic energy. But that energy is used to feed back and transform and heal physical matter again - and so goes back into N/om energy again.

 

All the higher alchemical powers were achieved by the Bushmen but that was not really the focus of the culture - instead it was on the healing energy and this was directed by the females, as I mentioned - so the females would throw water onto the males to keep the males back into their body to heal the females. So I would say Taoism also has this practical focus - it is more focused on the body being healed - on longevity - and also on Feng Shui - to heal the land - to even heal the weather -- and in that sense - the training is tied to animal wisdom just as the original hunter gatherer cultures considered animals to be spirit guides.....

 

And also in the Tao Te Ching the Emptiness is described as the spirit of the valley which is female and that yin is more powerful since -- like water - it can dissolve other things -- it flows and takes the shape needed, etc.

 

Qigong is considered to be 5,000 years old from these older matrifocal rituals of trance dancing.

 

The monotheistic religions are built upon this older more lunar matrifocal healing energy - but so the focus shifted to not just a Solar emphasis but just excluding the female energy also and trying to hide it - and so the ritual priests became more left brain focused - using right hand technology. So the ritual geometry was used actually more for materialistic means and actually based on a separation of the whole mind from the power of the lower body which is what is needed to activate the whole mind - that is the "harmony of heaven and Earth" - so the ritual priests are based on "separation of heaven and earth" which then cuts off the love energy that is the harmonization process.....

 

In the trance healing "God" watches the process and guides it - or the Emptiness -- but it's actually also the Cosmic Mother - I call it "female formless awareness." The patriarchial religions try to claim that it is genderless but that is based on left-brain logic which is symmetric and so goes against the inherent complementary opposites of reality as defined by this "three in one" unity. It can not be contained visually - and so it is through an older verbal, listening process that is an infinite process. And so the "source" of the yin energy is the formless Emptiness but it is also female as the Cosmic Mother energy - so a deeper love into the "womb-tomb" - beyond death and birth. Or like Kali as the Cosmic Mother - is really Kala as time that goes in reverse from creation to destruction and back to creation again by reversing the direction of space. So it is like the frequency of time itself is able to change the direction of physical space - and this works through the light spirit energy which is hidden inside the physical female jing energy - prenatal vitality is the spirit light energy.

 

So this listening process as meditation is resonating with this female formless awareness which then builds up the energy again -- and the more we do it then the more harmonized our energy is and so the faster that time is reversed - space collapses more quickly into the Cosmic Mother Emptiness which is a realm of pure light as the mind energy - the yang energy -- then reverses or changes physical reality back into yin.

 

So there are always mystical movements -- reform movements -- Buddhism is a mystical reform movement - it is not inherently patriarchal but it can easily fall back into the patriachal culture because the root -- the rotten root of patriarchy does not get cut out -- it does not get fully exposed. But that is the same with all the later reform movements -- as patriarchy continues - and the destruction escalates and intensifies.

 

The ancient matrifocal origins of humanity as steeped in the Dream Time as a permanent eternal vision realm has the basic message that humans are NOT in control - no human is in control -- no matter how "godly" - only the Universe or the Emptiness or the Cosmic Mother is in control - secretly playing with physical reality but never really bothered by it - all the suffering and pain are just "growing pains" - learning tools that then enable greater love to be experienced - and this process actually happens outside of spacetime itself.

 

And so people should take care of ecology because they don't have a choice! Because we accept this greater control but there is a specific harmonization process through this yin-yang-Emptiness dynamic that has been passed on to us by the ancient shamanic traditions from trance dance and yoga and Tai Chi, etc. So Buddhism builds on that tradition but should be part into the same perspective as Christianity and Islam and Judaism and Krishna, etc. -- the Solar Gods.

 

My book goes into this more but it's not very clear and so not very readable and besides literacy goes against this real shamanic consciousness.

[Maddie]

Yeah so the oldest philosophy of India is Samkhya and it's based on the "three gunas" and Taoism has the same thing - the "yang" energy is like raja and the Emptiness is like sattva and yin is like tamas of Samkhya.

 

So we think of tamas as a negative thing but as alchemy teaches -- it starts and ends with "lead" or jing energy - and so the denser emotional physical energy becomes the means to focus to create stronger yang energy as prana and then to go into deeper Emptiness as shen energy.

 

I mean it is a "three in one unity" -- so anyway..... to say it's really "four" gets into nondualism....

 

But so if you consider the oldest philosphy of India - even China - you get into the secret Afro-dravidian cultures from the original cultures out of Africa that spread around the coasts of the world back around 70,000 BCE.....

 

Anyway so these older cultures -- the language is tonal like Tamil language in India - the trance dance training is given stronger focus -- like the origin of Taoism is considered to be from matrifocal shamans - females - doing trance dancing.

 

So also yang is the Perfect Fifth music interval and yin is the perfect fourth and so this is also found in Pythagorean philosophy - but people just look this over. Actually all human cultures have this 1-4-5 music intervals. Only in the West were these tunings then "compromised" into a materialistic philosophy that is the secret origin for Western mathematics, science, etc.

 

Anyway so the original human culture - the Bushmen of Africa going back to 100,000 BCE -- that is a matrifocal culture. The oldest ritual is the menstruation inititation trance dance and it's found in the two oldest tribes with slightly different languages - so that means the music trance dance ritual is the common denominator of human origins from 100,000 BCE.

 

How was it matrifocal -- it has to do with language originating out of lunar synchronization with menstruation and this being the jing Earth-Lunar energy but as psychic energy it connects with the pre-natal vitality as spirit energy - and this is a cosmic energy of other higher holographic dimensions..... A sort of psychic consciousness of the Earth-- Moon relation that governs life on Earth through the information stored in water which is what we are made up mainly. So the Emptiness is reflected materially through the female energy.

 

Yeah so in the original human cultures the females controlled land relations as the rights to water, etc. But the main principle was that "N/om" should not be hoarded - the energy should be shared. The females sang all night to transmit their jing energy aka N/om energy into the males and then the males trance danced all night to transform the N/om energy into !Xia the trance laser holographic energy. But that energy is used to feed back and transform and heal physical matter again - and so goes back into N/om energy again.

 

All the higher alchemical powers were achieved by the Bushmen but that was not really the focus of the culture - instead it was on the healing energy and this was directed by the females, as I mentioned - so the females would throw water onto the males to keep the males back into their body to heal the females. So I would say Taoism also has this practical focus - it is more focused on the body being healed - on longevity - and also on Feng Shui - to heal the land - to even heal the weather -- and in that sense - the training is tied to animal wisdom just as the original hunter gatherer cultures considered animals to be spirit guides.....

 

And also in the Tao Te Ching the Emptiness is described as the spirit of the valley which is female and that yin is more powerful since -- like water - it can dissolve other things -- it flows and takes the shape needed, etc.

 

Qigong is considered to be 5,000 years old from these older matrifocal rituals of trance dancing.

 

The monotheistic religions are built upon this older more lunar matrifocal healing energy - but so the focus shifted to not just a Solar emphasis but just excluding the female energy also and trying to hide it - and so the ritual priests became more left brain focused - using right hand technology. So the ritual geometry was used actually more for materialistic means and actually based on a separation of the whole mind from the power of the lower body which is what is needed to activate the whole mind - that is the "harmony of heaven and Earth" - so the ritual priests are based on "separation of heaven and earth" which then cuts off the love energy that is the harmonization process.....

 

In the trance healing "God" watches the process and guides it - or the Emptiness -- but it's actually also the Cosmic Mother - I call it "female formless awareness." The patriarchial religions try to claim that it is genderless but that is based on left-brain logic which is symmetric and so goes against the inherent complementary opposites of reality as defined by this "three in one" unity. It can not be contained visually - and so it is through an older verbal, listening process that is an infinite process. And so the "source" of the yin energy is the formless Emptiness but it is also female as the Cosmic Mother energy - so a deeper love into the "womb-tomb" - beyond death and birth. Or like Kali as the Cosmic Mother - is really Kala as time that goes in reverse from creation to destruction and back to creation again by reversing the direction of space. So it is like the frequency of time itself is able to change the direction of physical space - and this works through the light spirit energy which is hidden inside the physical female jing energy - prenatal vitality is the spirit light energy.

 

So this listening process as meditation is resonating with this female formless awareness which then builds up the energy again -- and the more we do it then the more harmonized our energy is and so the faster that time is reversed - space collapses more quickly into the Cosmic Mother Emptiness which is a realm of pure light as the mind energy - the yang energy -- then reverses or changes physical reality back into yin.

 

So there are always mystical movements -- reform movements -- Buddhism is a mystical reform movement - it is not inherently patriarchal but it can easily fall back into the patriachal culture because the root -- the rotten root of patriarchy does not get cut out -- it does not get fully exposed. But that is the same with all the later reform movements -- as patriarchy continues - and the destruction escalates and intensifies.

 

The ancient matrifocal origins of humanity as steeped in the Dream Time as a permanent eternal vision realm has the basic message that humans are NOT in control - no human is in control -- no matter how "godly" - only the Universe or the Emptiness or the Cosmic Mother is in control - secretly playing with physical reality but never really bothered by it - all the suffering and pain are just "growing pains" - learning tools that then enable greater love to be experienced - and this process actually happens outside of spacetime itself.

 

And so people should take care of ecology because they don't have a choice! Because we accept this greater control but there is a specific harmonization process through this yin-yang-Emptiness dynamic that has been passed on to us by the ancient shamanic traditions from trance dance and yoga and Tai Chi, etc. So Buddhism builds on that tradition but should be part into the same perspective as Christianity and Islam and Judaism and Krishna, etc. -- the Solar Gods.

 

My book goes into this more but it's not very clear and so not very readable and besides literacy goes against this real shamanic consciousness.

Thanks for the explanation. So I understand more or less about the matriarchal roots of Taoism. Though I'm a little less clear about the Solar / patriarchal component of Buddhism? I don't understand its connection with the monotheistic religions.

[voidisyinyang]

Thanks for the explanation. So I understand more or less about the matriarchal roots of Taoism. Though I'm a little less clear about the Solar / patriarchal component of Buddhism? I don't understand its connection with the monotheistic religions.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnpmssN7NiQ

 

this lady has a good book called Suns of God which also includes Buddhism.....

 

http://www.truthbeknown.com/sunsofgod.htm

 

http://www.truthbeknown.com/lifeofbuddha.htm

 

So she notes the Brahma Purana listed "Buddha" which as Surya also means the Sun.....

 

that's page 188 -- you can read and search her book at the bottom of the last link....

 

 

At Buddha Gaya, the sun god Suyra is depicted in a chariot with four horses.....

 

 

Anyway so the logic of Buddhism is "neti, neti" logic -- which is the basis in the West as "proof by contradiction."

 

So the earliest form of the Pythagorean Theorem is from around 3000 BCE in India, as math professor Abraham Seidenberg demonstrated - it was from ritual solar priests used for sacrifice altars -- the circular lunar female goddess altars had to be made the same size as the male solar size rectilinear altars. So then the same "centering of the circle" ritual sacrifice math was used for chariot wheel technology.

 

And so we can see that Buddhism was an attempt to reform the imperial excesses of the Solar chariot imperialism -- around 1200 BCE in India then iron became more valuable than silver which was the female lunar goddess sacrifice money. Iron though could be used for weapons and so the lunar silver female value went down even more.

 

And so in Buddhist logic there is no recognition of the "complementary opposites" which is the secret of the Taoist alchemical resonance - the basis for the small universe exercise that is derided by Bodri and Nan for example -- complementary opposites as the yin and yang resonance is the secret for why the full lotus is so effective as Wang, Liping reveals and also the Pythagorean tetrad is based on the same equilateral triangle principle secret - it is not an irrational geometry like in the West but a transcendental resonance of complementary opposites. Of course tai chi is the same -- the secret is harmonizing and oscillating the yin and yang dynamics of the body-mind.

 

So something as simple as "moving of yin and yang" utilizes these principles but the logic is not symmetric logic which is the basis for the Brahmin-derived religions including the reform attempt by Buddhism -- the symmetric logic is based on an attempt to "contain" infinity using geometric technology - and so ultimately the religious practices are part of an imperial extension. That is how it is "monotheistic." Just as in today the Thai Buddhist monks go out to convert the tribal villages in an attempt to "civilize" them so they adhere to a monotheistic corporate-state system -- and the same is true in Burma and Sri Lanka, Japan, etc. It is actually the mathematical logic that is the secret for monotheistic religions and why Western science arose out of the monasteries using Neo-Platonic philosophy.

 

So obviously Buddhism as a reform religion recognizes the lunar principle as with Theravedin monks meditating all night during the full moon -- and similarly Islam also recognizes the lunar principle also. The question is to what extent is the female energy suppressed so that the solar male energy can be maximized -- for example even the Dalai Lama admits that Tibetan was an oppressive feudalistic society and the women there were not given as high status -- and the same under Confucionist policies of China and obviously in India this is true. So Buddhism -- it tries to make things better - but in the modern world now the citizens run the monasteries and this is part of the Westernization of Buddhism as the modern anti-colonial trend -- but the citizens are not meditation masters and so Buddhism has become assimilated into a Westernized system because in its origins Buddhism is in line with Western philosophy based on the proof by contradiction or "neti, neti" logic.

 

People will of course "argue" about the neti, neti logic of Buddhism -- and how similar that is to nondualist philosophy of advaita vedanta -- actually advaita vedanta uses logical inference which is not the same as "neti, neti." But the question indicates that if Buddhism uses "neti, neti" then like other Hindu philosophies using "neti, neti" logic Buddhism must secretly believe in a Soul - as in Sun or Sol. This whole argument is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of nondualist philosophy which is based on the secret invisible "sun" behind the sun. For example an ancient debate between Buddhists and Brahmins was about the solar eclipse - was the ring of light around the moon covering the sun - did that indicate Sunyata or Emptiness or did it indicate "one" as in Wholeness -- or an impersonal soul as Brahman. Well this debate really covers up the crucial role of the female moon energy as resonating the female formless awareness - that which can not be seen and therefore the ring of light does not demonstrate it - rather the moon indicates what can be logically inferred.

 

Anyway the exact meaning of complementary opposite resonance as nonwestern logic and how it is ignored in Buddhism and most Indian philosophy - except for the three gunas --- this is a subtle understanding. I have not really seen this elsewhere because the understanding is actually based on music theory. So anyway I have written on this -- on music theory and the Tai Chi symbol http://fulllotusqigong.blogspot.com/2012/11/non-commutative-resonance-quantum.html but it gets into mathematical logic and philosophy of science, also.....

Edited May 7, 2013 by pythagoreanfulllotus

[RongzomFan]

http://www.truthbeknown.com/sunsofgod.htm

 

http://www.truthbeknown.com/lifeofbuddha.htm

 

 

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Simple_Jack]

Anyway so the logic of Buddhism is "neti, neti" logic -- which is the basis in the West as "proof by contradiction."...

 

 

...so Buddhism has become assimilated into a Westernized system because in its origins Buddhism is in line with Western philosophy based on the proof by contradiction or "neti, neti" logic....

 

People will of course "argue" about the neti, neti logic of Buddhism -- and how similar that is to nondualist philosophy of advaita vedanta -- actually advaita vedanta uses logical inference which is not the same as "neti, neti." But the question indicates that if Buddhism uses "neti, neti" then like other Hindu philosophies using "neti, neti" logic Buddhism must secretly believe in a Soul - as in Sun or Sol. This whole argument is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of nondualist philosophy which is based on the secret invisible "sun" behind the sun....

 

"Neti, neti", is the domain of Advaita Vedanta. Buddhist meditation is predicated off of the refutation of the four extremes (existent, non-existent, both existent and non-existent, neither existent nor non-existent) http://www.academia.edu/1972635/Gorampa_Sonam_Senge_on_the_Refutation_of_the_Four_Extremes.

 

 

"The actual mode of meditation in rang stong and gzhan stong are not different at all. The difference lay primarily in how they conceptualize the view in post-meditation....

 

The basis in gzhan stong is still emptiness, albeit is an emptiness qualified by the presence of ultimate buddha qualities, where samsaric phenomena are considered extraneous. Why? Because these ultimate qualities are only held to appear to exist in post-equipoise, but their appearance of existence disappear when in equipoise.

 

The equipoise in both rang stong and gzhan stong is characterized as an equipoise free from extremes. In the case of commoners, this freedom from extremes is arrived through analysis that negate the four extremes in turn. This is necessary even in gshan stong because attachment to the luminosity described by the PP sutras will result in an extreme view, just as grasping to emptiness results in an extreme view.

 

As I said, the most salient difference between R and S is in their post-equipoise formulation. In terms of how adherents of the so called R and S views actually meditate, there is no ultimate difference.

 

The pitfall of both approaches is the same -- failure to eradicate all extremes results in the former grasping to non-existence as emptiness, and the latter grasping to existence as emptiness.

 

The purpose of Madhyamaka analysis is not to come to some imagined "correct" generic image of the ultimate, but rather to exhaust the mind's capacity to reify phenomena according to any extreme so that one's experience of conventional truth upon reaching the path of seeing in post-equipoise is that all phenomena are seen to be illusions, dreams and so on i.e. unreal and yet apparent due to the force of traces.

 

.....It is exactly emptiness precisely in the fashion that I described it, even in Dolbuwa's [Dolpopa's] presentation.

 

~Lopon Malcolm"

 

Where do you get your ideas from?

 

And so in Buddhist logic there is no recognition of the "complementary opposites" which is the secret of the Taoist alchemical resonance - the basis for the small universe exercise that is derided by Bodri and Nan for example...

 

In his "Tao & Longevity", Nan Huaijin derides much of the historical development of the alchemical sects:

 

"...Visualization and transcendental thinking methods involve neither the transmutation of ch'i method that prevailed in the Chin, South, and North dynasties, nor the concentration on the cavity (such as concentration on Tan Tien) cultivation method that prevailed during the Ming and Ch'ing dynasties. They do not involve the Taoist cultivation method of transmutation of ching into ch'i, transmutation of ch'i into shen, and transmutation of shen into Void. Each of these Taoist methods has its own pattern and function. It is unfortunate that those who learn Taoism have confused the different traditions. Some students thought that all they had to do was find a good master who would teach them a hidden secret, and they could become an immortal instantly. They therefore ignored the study of the principles of the Taoist methods. Taoist methods were not organized into a science of immortality with principles, rules, systematic sequences, and methods. As a consequence, these practices lend to calamity rather than to the achievement of immortality"

 

~ Ch. 6, pg.23 Tao & Longevity: Mind-Body Transformation translated by Wen Kuan Chu, Ph.D

[Wu Ming Jen]

For a balanced view one can look into the Complete Reality School of taoism a blend of what is similar and why buddhism fused with taoism and took root in china. Taoist is a classical system where men and women are equal, the only form on the planet where the sexes are both equal. Do not confuse confucius with taoist his intention was awesome as scholar and to bring the wealth of taoist thought to the people. confucius school was used and corrupted by the chinese government for social order.

 

Hindu started the mess of two worlds higher and lower Buddha discovered hindu system was all crap. Hindu is the bases of western religion it is not an eastern understanding. Buddha is enlightened human chinese could relate to that even though it is a foreign external thing to china. Hello chinese buddhism fused with taoist understanding. Taoist predate buddhism arriving in 512 AD by thousands of years and well into pre history for that matter.

 

The Chinese were in awe of this formal system of buddhism as in all written down and latter mimicked it. Buddhism lasted in its homeland India for sixty years. Buddhism spread out over an amazing amount of area in its peak.

[Simple_Jack]

Buddhism lasted in its homeland India for sixty years. Buddhism spread out over an amazing amount of area in its peak.

 

Buddhism died out in India after the Muslim invasions of the 13th century...

[RongzomFan]

Buddhism lasted in its homeland India for sixty years. Buddhism spread out over an amazing amount of area in its peak.

 

What the fuck are you talking about? Buddhism was the major religion of India for hundreds of years.

[voidisyinyang]

"Neti, neti", is the domain of Advaita Vedanta.

 

 

Another widespread misunderstanding arose from the Hindu belief that the Self could be discovered by mentally

rejecting all the objects of thought and perception as not-Self. Traditionally this is called the neti-neti approach (not

this, not this). The practitioner of this system verbally rejects all the objects that the ‘I’ identifies with - ‘I am not the

mind’, ‘I am not the body’, etc. - in the expectation that the real ‘I’ will eventually be experienced in its pure

uncontaminated form.

Hinduism calls this practice ‘self-enquiry’ and, because of the identity of names, it was often confused with Sri

Ramana’s method. Sri Ramana’s attitude to this traditional system of self- analysis was wholly negative and he

discouraged his own followers from practising it by telling them that it was an intellectual activity which could not

take them beyond the mind. In his standard reply to questions about the effectiveness of this practice he would say

that the ‘I’-thought is sustained by such acts of discrimination and that the ‘I’ which eliminates the body and the mind

as ‘not I’ can never eliminate itself.

The followers of the ‘I am Brahman’ and ‘neti-neti’ schools share a common belief that the Self can be discovered by

the mind, either through affirmation or negation. This belief that the mind can, by its own activities, reach the Self is

the root of most of the misconceptions about the practice of self-enquiry.

 

http://selfdefinition.org/ramana/Ramana%20Maharshi%20-%20Be%20As%20You%20Are--The%20Teachings%20of%20Sri%20Ramana%20Maharshi--Godman.pdf

[Wu Ming Jen]

As accepted by the government, the official religion, The Official religion has changed in China many times. India is Hindu and Hindu/buddhist there is a fusion or confusion there as well.

[RongzomFan]

As an Indian raised Hindu, I can assure you that you have no idea what you are talking about.