Emptiness and Thought Observation

[Birdoftruth]

Hey guys I've been doing thought observation as my meditation and have a question. There are moments when I am sitting and in my meditation I literally have no thoughts and I would like to know what I am suppose to observe if I have no thoughts at that moment. And I have been wondering if I have no thoughts because I am focussing to hard on nothing when I have no thoughts.

 

Thanks

 

By the way Thought observation has proven to be the best meditation for me and has yielded me far better results then my stint with Vipassana

[Jetsun]

Someone from this website recommended me a meditation book by Daniel Ingram which I think could help, I was more into reading more primary texts before but this book is good imo. It talks about Vipassana a bit but it will give you advice one where to go whatever stage you are at, especially by analysing your experience of no thought to see whether it it is characterised by "the three conditions" of suffering, no self and impermanence.

 

You can get it free from his website http://www.interactivebuddha.com/mctb.shtml

[leo17]

The meditative state is the area between sleep and being awake so you don't focus on anything when you've reached the meditative state. You also lose track of time. But you can focus on something to get yourself to the meditative state.

 

Or at least that has been my experience, that is also what John Chang has noted.

[Taomeow]

Hey guys I've been doing thought observation as my meditation and have a question. There are moments when I am sitting and in my meditation I literally have no thoughts and I would like to know what I am suppose to observe if I have no thoughts at that moment. And I have been wondering if I have no thoughts because I am focussing to hard on nothing when I have no thoughts.

 

Thanks

 

By the way Thought observation has proven to be the best meditation for me and has yielded me far better results then my stint with Vipassana

 

I've seen a description of the "correct" way one is sitting observing one's thoughts in meditation likened to the way a cat is sitting watching a mouse hole -- your awareness being the cat and the thoughts the mice. If the mice know about the cat, how many mice will dare emerge from the hole?..

 

I believe it's a good meditation. If you observe "nothing" when you observe your thoughts, it means you are in charge, rather than thrown this way and that way by thoughts scurrying around. What do you want to accomplish when you're in charge? What's the goal of your meditation?

 

I view meditation as a "tool," not a destination (what shamans call a "horse" to get you somewhere). Where do you want to go? Getting your thoughts to disappear is step one, and "watching" them serves only this purpose and no other. What's the next step? To notice what, or who, emerges when your thoughts disappear. Have you noticed?

[Marblehead]

All I will say is that in my opinion no-thought during meditation is good. I will leave the rest for more practiced meditators to speak to.

[de_paradise]

Hey guys I've been doing thought observation as my meditation and have a question. There are moments when I am sitting and in my meditation I literally have no thoughts and I would like to know what I am suppose to observe if I have no thoughts at that moment. And I have been wondering if I have no thoughts because I am focussing to hard on nothing when I have no thoughts.

 

Thanks

 

By the way Thought observation has proven to be the best meditation for me and has yielded me far better results then my stint with Vipassana

 

 

Funny I was just wanting to post something on this topic, just now as I was meditating.

 

The short answer to your question is to have no thoughts but attempt to relax your mind more.

 

Ok. Everyone knows the Buddha's instruction to just notice the thoughts, or allow them to rise and disappear without clinging.

 

Normally a meditator reaches a thoughtless state if he is quite focused on one thing, but the problem with that is the mind is clamping down on that thing or on that nothingness projection (its not true emptyness, just some kind of mental aproxiamation) and its simply too tense. Im not saying that your problem is this, but that the way forward is to gently relax your mind still more, somewhat like you were drifting off to sleep.

 

As you know, when you drift off to sleep, a whole new kind of thoughts start to pop up, not of the conscious variety, such as what you are going to make for dinner, but some kind of weird out-of-context type of thought that have zip to do with what your current situation is. These kind of thoughts are called vritti, and if you start thinking of how a plumber is talking to his customer, and customer answering back. Or, for example, someone you know is explaining something about their life, and perhaps there is an answer from the created context, or the context switches but its still nothing to do with your current situation of you as a meditator. This is how the body puts the conscious mind to sleep, and what you want to do is to utilize this natural function to help you go into a better meditational state. So you keep relaxing, but also have an awareness of the present situation, those strange out of context thoughts pop up, but you are not sucked into sleep, instead what happens is the qi body gets progressively energized. Its almost like switching gears, from qi2 to qi2 to qi3, etc. If a vritti thought pops up, your mind, because its so relaxed and near the subconscious level, you may even fall into the context a little, but when you realize whats happening and switch back to silent empty observation: BOOM! your body goes from q1 to qi2, or from qi3 to qi4 depending on how deep you already are. The longer you meditate on a long term basis, the body can create more and more "gears" which are progressively more effective.

[Birdoftruth]

Funny I was just wanting to post something on this topic, just now as I was meditating.

 

The short answer to your question is to have no thoughts but attempt to relax your mind more.

 

Ok. Everyone knows the Buddha's instruction to just notice the thoughts, or allow them to rise and disappear without clinging.

 

Normally a meditator reaches a thoughtless state if he is quite focused on one thing, but the problem with that is the mind is clamping down on that thing or on that nothingness projection (its not true emptyness, just some kind of mental aproxiamation) and its simply too tense. Im not saying that your problem is this, but that the way forward is to gently relax your mind still more, somewhat like you were drifting off to sleep.

 

As you know, when you drift off to sleep, a whole new kind of thoughts start to pop up, not of the conscious variety, such as what you are going to make for dinner, but some kind of weird out-of-context type of thought that have zip to do with what your current situation is. These kind of thoughts are called vritti, and if you start thinking of how a plumber is talking to his customer, and customer answering back. Or, for example, someone you know is explaining something about their life, and perhaps there is an answer from the created context, or the context switches but its still nothing to do with your current situation of you as a meditator. This is how the body puts the conscious mind to sleep, and what you want to do is to utilize this natural function to help you go into a better meditational state. So you keep relaxing, but also have an awareness of the present situation, those strange out of context thoughts pop up, but you are not sucked into sleep, instead what happens is the qi body gets progressively energized. Its almost like switching gears, from qi2 to qi2 to qi3, etc. If a vritti thought pops up, your mind, because its so relaxed and near the subconscious level, you may even fall into the context a little, but when you realize whats happening and switch back to silent empty observation: BOOM! your body goes from q1 to qi2, or from qi3 to qi4 depending on how deep you already are. The longer you meditate on a long term basis, the body can create more and more "gears" which are progressively more effective.

 

Awesome post. Thanks. I think my problem is definitely that my mind is too tense I will try to just let my mind ease and just watch the thoughts but bring it back to easiness

 

"Where do you want to go? Getting your thoughts to disappear is step one, and "watching" them serves only this purpose and no other. What's the next step? To notice what, or who, emerges when your thoughts disappear. Have you noticed?"

 

I want the thoughts to go away but I also want them to appear so I can figure out my method for thinking, my hidden thoughts, and why I think the way I do in accordance to external stimuli.

[Sloppy Zhang]

I don't know if you've seen this before, but "Initiation Into Hermetics" puts the exercise you are doing in the step I mental category.

 

It's certainly useful in the way that Bardon's method works, and the later ways in which he deals with subconscious, habits of conscious, etc etc.

 

For me, personally, that's not the way I liked to go about doing things, and for me, I came across the things that taomeow and de_paradise have already brought up.

 

It was pretty easy for me to get focused, and for a while, I reaped great benefit from it- I noticed that I could work long hours and be completely focused on just doing my work (whereas before my mind would wander and I'd procrastinate). I realized that I could fall asleep in about two seconds after lying down because I was completely focused on sleep (whereas before it took me about an hour to fall asleep). Yet I still noticed, from other practices I had done which got me into the habit of observing these things, that I was still pretty tense.

 

And as taomeow already put it, it's like a cat watching mice- if the cat is around, the mice aren't going to come out. But in my opinion, even if you have a cat, you still have the mice! As much as I like a cute little mouse, if I want to get one out of my house, I'll lay a mouse trap. The REAL test is when you leave a bunch of traps around and no mice show up!

Edited November 10, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[leo17]

Awesome post. Thanks. I think my problem is definitely that my mind is too tense I will try to just let my mind ease and just watch the thoughts but bring it back to easiness

 

"Where do you want to go? Getting your thoughts to disappear is step one, and "watching" them serves only this purpose and no other. What's the next step? To notice what, or who, emerges when your thoughts disappear. Have you noticed?"

I want the thoughts to go away but I also want them to appear so I can figure out my method for thinking, my hidden thoughts, and why I think the way I do in accordance to external stimuli.

That's just it. DON'T think about it. Let it happen naturally.

[LBDaoist]

I want the thoughts to go away but I also want them to appear so I can figure out my method for thinking, my hidden thoughts, and why I think the way I do in accordance to external stimuli.

 

Because you want the thoughts to go away they will linger. The mind produces thoughts. No matter what you do, the mind will continue to produce thoughts. The best we can hope for is to become aware of the thoughts and then let them go.

 

I have found it helpful to become aware of the senses... sound, smell, touch, etc. It seems to me that when I am fully focused on a sense, there is not enough awareness left over to think. Of course maintaining full awareness of a sense is difficult, and often thoughts arise about whatever the sense is aware of.

[Vajrahridaya]

 

By the way Thought observation has proven to be the best meditation for me and has yielded me far better results then my stint with Vipassana

 

Yes, that's called Samatha. Your practicing Sati or mindfullness. I like anapana samatha or watching the breath.

[xabir2005]

Yes, that's called Samatha. Your practicing Sati or mindfullness. I like anapana samatha or watching the breath.

I would put it differently. Sati and samatha are different. Anapanasati does not equal anapana samatha, even though in Vajrayana there is little emphasis on the use of anapanasati as an object for developing insights (and therefore it is mostly practiced as a shamatha technique).

 

Also, I would say mindfulness/sati is actually more important in Vipassana than Samatha, since it is mindfulness of the nakedness of reality and its nature/characteristics.

 

Anapanasati can be practiced in both ways - as a samatha method or a vipassana method. As a vipassana method it can yield penetrating insights that lead to liberation.

Excerpt from http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Other/Anapana/anapana.html

 

Insight Meditators Must Know Realities

 

However in vipassana meditation every object of meditation must be absolute reality, ultimate reality, paramattha. In vipassana meditation no concept can be the object of meditation. Concept cannot be the object of vipassana meditation because vipassana meditators need to realise the specific characteristics and general characteristics of mental and physical phenomena, which are absolute realities. So the object must be either mental or physical processes which are ultimate realities. If concept is the object of vipassana meditation, vipassana meditators cannot realise any characteristics of mental and physical processes because you cannot find any real characteristics in concepts. Concepts are created by the mind.

 

Say your name is Pannananda. Even though you might have died, if I memorise your name as Pannananda, the name is there in my mind (though the actual Pannananda has gone). Why? Because my mind memorises it, and makes it exist. This shows that a name is just a concept because it is created, memorised or made to exist by the mind. So concepts are not realities. They are things made up by the mind, so they do not have any characteristics to realise.

 

If the red circle is the object of meditation, we see the form of the circle in our mind and concentrate on it. Gradually our mind becomes more and more concentrated on the red circle that we see in our mind. When the mind is totally absorbed in that circle, then we say we have attained jhana. However, that red circle is not reality, because the mind makes the object; so it is just a concept. It hasn’t any characteristics to realise. Even though you concentrate your mind on it for a hundred years continuously, you cannot realise any characteristics; because it is not an absolute reality, it is a mind-made thing — just a concept.

 

Respiration Meditation

 

Then as to respiration meditation (anapanasati), in the Visuddhimagga it is mentioned as samatha meditation, concentration meditation. In the Mahasatipatthana Sutta it is mentioned as vipassana meditation. Then how can we distinguish it between the vipassana aspect of respiration and the samatha aspect of respiration? If we are mindful of the absolute reality of respiration, that will be vipassana meditation. If we are mindful of the concept regarding respiration, then it will be samatha meditation.

 

So the Visuddhimagga mentions the method of concentrating on the touching sensation whenever you breathe in and breathe out. When you concentrate your mind on the coming in and going out of the breath, then it is samatha meditation because you have to concentrate on the coming in and going out, not on the wind or air. When it is coming in you note ‘in’; when it is going out you note, ‘out’. ‘In, out, in, out’. Your mind is not on the breathing air but on the ‘coming-in’ and the ‘going-out’. ‘Coming-in’ and ‘going-out’ are not ultimate realities.

 

Say you come into the room through the door and go out of the room through the door. We may ask, “What is this coming in and going out?” it is neither you, nor a person. It is just ‘coming-in’ and ‘going-out.’ It is just concept. In the same way, when you concentrate on the coming in and going out of the breath, it is just a concept. Since concept is the object of meditation, it is samatha meditation. You cannot realise any specific characteristics or general characteristics of ‘coming-in’ and ‘going-out’ because they are not realities, just concepts, so that’s samatha meditation.

 

However, if you focus your mind on the point where the breath touches whenever it comes in or goes out, it touches the nostrils. When you observe this touching sensation and are mindful of it, then it is (ultimate) reality. That touching point is composed of the four primary material elements: pathavi; dhatu, hard or soft; apo dhatu, liquidity or cohesion; tejo dhatu, hot or cold; vayo dhatu, movement or vibration. These four elements are there whenever you focus your mind on the touching sensation. So the object is absolute reality. What can we call it — samatha or vipassana meditation? It is vipassana.

 

That is what the Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw wrote about the distinction between the samatha and vipassana aspects of respiration meditation. I appreciate it very much. So then we can say respiration meditation is vipassana meditation in accordance with the Mahasatipatthana Sutta. We can also say that respiration meditation is samatha in accordance with the Visuddhimagga. It is very subtle and profound to differentiate between these two aspects of respiration meditation, but I think those who have practised meditation very well can differentiate between these two aspects

Edited November 12, 2010 by xabir2005

[xabir2005]

Hey guys I've been doing thought observation as my meditation and have a question. There are moments when I am sitting and in my meditation I literally have no thoughts and I would like to know what I am suppose to observe if I have no thoughts at that moment. And I have been wondering if I have no thoughts because I am focussing to hard on nothing when I have no thoughts.

 

Thanks

 

By the way Thought observation has proven to be the best meditation for me and has yielded me far better results then my stint with Vipassana

Personally, I practiced doing self-inquiry, asking 'Who am I' - asking this in a thoughtless state led me to the I AM realization, which is an important insight, a certainty of Being arises. Self-inquiry is the direct path to self-realization. I have written my experiences and you can find instructions on how to practice self-inquiry in my journal at http://www.box.net/shared/3verpiao63

 

However, there are further realizations. As I wrote in my own journal, how I progressed from I AM to the various aspects of I AM, then non dual, and anatta.

 

I consider myself very early in the path (practiced self inquiry for the previous two years, realized I AM then progressed to non dual and anatta all within this year) and still have much to improve on in terms of the clarity of insight and stabilization.

 

You can also refer to Thusness/PasserBy's Seven Stages of Enlightenment, who I personally consider my teacher and who is much more experienced than me.

 

 

p.s. just realized Taomeow said '"Where do you want to go? Getting your thoughts to disappear is step one, and "watching" them serves only this purpose and no other. What's the next step? To notice what, or who, emerges when your thoughts disappear. Have you noticed?"'

 

Yes, this is it, the practice of self-inquiry - what remains when all conceptual thoughts subside? What is it? Who am I?

Edited November 12, 2010 by xabir2005

[dwai]

Hey guys I've been doing thought observation as my meditation and have a question. There are moments when I am sitting and in my meditation I literally have no thoughts and I would like to know what I am suppose to observe if I have no thoughts at that moment. And I have been wondering if I have no thoughts because I am focussing to hard on nothing when I have no thoughts.

 

Thanks

 

By the way Thought observation has proven to be the best meditation for me and has yielded me far better results then my stint with Vipassana

 

be in that space between thoughts and slowly it will expand. That is the goal of any meditation...to expand and stabilize in the state of no-thoughts. That's when the true nature of Consciousness will reveal itself....there are things that you will just know (profound intuition).

[3bob]

Personally, I practiced doing self-inquiry, asking 'Who am I' - asking this in a thoughtless state led me to the I AM realization, which is an important insight, a certainty of Being arises. Self-inquiry is the direct path to self-realization. I have written my experiences and you can find instructions on how to practice self-inquiry in my journal at http://www.box.net/shared/3verpiao63

 

However, there are further realizations. As I wrote in my own journal, how I progressed from I AM to the various aspects of I AM, then non dual, and anatta.

 

I consider myself very early in the path (practiced self inquiry for the previous two years, realized I AM then progressed to non dual and anatta all within this year) and still have much to improve on in terms of the clarity of insight and stabilization.

 

You can also refer to Thusness/PasserBy's Seven Stages of Enlightenment, who I personally consider my teacher and who is much more experienced than me.

 

 

p.s. just realized Taomeow said '"Where do you want to go? Getting your thoughts to disappear is step one, and "watching" them serves only this purpose and no other. What's the next step? To notice what, or who, emerges when your thoughts disappear. Have you noticed?"'

 

Yes, this is it, the practice of self-inquiry - what remains when all conceptual thoughts subside? What is it? Who am I?

 

Imo you do a fine job of representation of your path and of yourself Xabir.

 

And VJ. if you happen to be reading this I suggest you try shutting up before you get started. Why, because 90% of the time you come across as an obsessive, know it all Holy Roller. (and seldom does it matter to you what anyone else has to share or how they feel as long as you can spout on and on about dependent origination as if you were teaching and correcting us on such, which obviously feeds into our super-size me ego trip!

 

Om

Edited November 13, 2010 by 3bob

[Marblehead]

Imo you do a fine job of representation of your path and of yourself Xabir.

Om

 

I agree. Even though we are on different paths the journey is the same.

[Niklas]

Hey guys I've been doing thought observation as my meditation and have a question. There are moments when I am sitting and in my meditation I literally have no thoughts and I would like to know what I am suppose to observe if I have no thoughts at that moment. And I have been wondering if I have no thoughts because I am focussing to hard on nothing when I have no thoughts.

 

Thanks

 

By the way Thought observation has proven to be the best meditation for me and has yielded me far better results then my stint with Vipassana

 

 

If you know that you have no thoughts, you are wrong, because when you don't have any thoughts you don't know that you don't have any. It's like when you are practicing a sport that needs concentration to win, you won't know that you are concentrated when you actually are. So forget about the fact that you need to concentrate (for example when you are meditating on a sound), just be the sound. When your mind is completely relaxed on that sound, you'll start to have like strange "dream thoughts", that's when you'll be at the edge falling asleep. Don't fall completely into these "dream thoughts" (or you'll fall asleep), but stay aware.

[forestofclarity]

From Swami Dayananda:

What is meditation? Am I meditating when I remove all thoughts? Suppose I try to remove all thoughts. Then what happens when a thought comes? Silence is gone. I am going to be in for trouble, because the arrival of a thought becomes a problem. Can I have a mind that will never think? Would I ever ask God, “Oh, God, give me a mind which will never think!” Why should He give me a mind at all, then? The mind is meant to think.

 

Thinking doesn’t create problems. It is a blessing to be given a mind. To make thought into a nightmare is the silliest thing a person can do. If you think the absence of thought is meditation or seeing funny visions is meditation, I would say that is maditation. Seeing funny visions is not meditation, removing thoughts is not meditation. If I seek to remove all thoughts I only become frustrated and condemn myself as worthless because I can’t do it. In trying to be “spiritual”, I become so frustrated with myself that I become an impossible person to be with. I can’t stand anything going on, because it all creates thoughts in me.

 

Silence in Spite of Thoughts

Edited November 13, 2010 by forestofemptiness

[Niklas]

From Swami Dayananda:

 

 

Silence in Spite of Thoughts

 

Then what is meditation? The pleasure of being?

[xabir2005]

We can get an initial glimpse of Presence, which is important, by inquiring 'who am I', 'what is it', in the gap between two thoughts. From my experience... after the initial glimpse of Pure Presence... the realization of Being... the tendency is to rest in the background space. Awareness is seen as the background space, silence, in which thoughts manifest and subside from/within.

 

Now, I no longer see a background silence and foreground experience... only this arising experience, without an experiencer. Be it silence or noise... just that is Presence. There is only foreground Presence in differing conditions, including the initial formless Presence/Beingness realized through self-inquiry, yet there is no ultimate identity - no background - even formless Beingness is a foreground experience like everything else.

 

Presence is no longer just the gap between two thoughts, but also the thought between two gaps. No longer a tendency to sink back to a source, a background.

Edited November 13, 2010 by xabir2005