TTBs reputation System

[Apech]

Hi,

 

This is a spillover from the other thread on the Reputation System.

 

Its the first poll I've done so I hope it works.

 

It only allowed me three questions - I wanted to distinguish between scoring posts and scoring people but I couldn't - so I think that's another issue.

 

Anyway - here goes.

[Marblehead]

Okay. I voted. Noticed that 6 others had voted before me. Good showing so far.

[Apech]

You can multiple vote the second question by the way.

[Mark Foote]

You can multiple vote the second question by the way.

 

I personally didn't want to answer the second or the third question, but of course I couldn't participate at all unless I did so.

 

As I said on the other threads about the rating system, the question to me is how do we assess whether this feature benefits the discussion, or inhibits the discussion. I don't mind taking part in what I see as a rating experiment, but I wonder how we will know what the result if we don't state clearly in advance what it was intended to achieve?

 

Is this a facebook-kinda social thingee intended to empower those who otherwise would remain voiceless, whose lives are too busy to actually put fingers to keys to express in words what they feel- do our discussions benefit from having a venue for such people to express themselves? I personally see the principal strength of Tao Bums as the willingness of so many people of such diverse backgrounds and opinions to actually put words to the feelings and understandings that are so intimate to us all- and maybe people have to be pushed on the stage in order to perform in this fashion, but if we open the forum to an audience that doesn't take their turn on the stage, I think we will find that it is a whole different forum.

 

1 cent, 'nother cent.

[Apech]

I personally didn't want to answer the second or the third question, but of course I couldn't participate at all unless I did so.

 

 

 

yes - I was the same and I wrote the thing! Ha. But I just thought even if you vote no on number 1 question its still worth asking what you would be willing to use it for if it was still there. if you see what i mean.

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

I haven't read the other thread yet A7, but I voted no to the rating/reputation system....and also no even if someone will hold my hand as I use it(especially no in fact)

 

The only thing I agree with is 'anti-spam'.

 

I'll say it here but I'm sure someone has probably already said this on the other thread: Daoism and 'reputation', and even a form of judgement of 'worth' or 'value' in a person/comment, or whatever, is, IMV, diametrically opposed.

 

How can one become detached when one is concerned about reputation, although that may happen in individuals anyway, in a social sense, there's no reason to reinforce it on a web site that's related to a religion that seeks to 'go beyond' the usual human weakness'.

 

I think the majority of people can see worth or value, it doesn't really need to be pointed out, a simple 'thanks' can suffice, and then everyone moves on and forgets it. But to have the reminder/reputation is a 'building up' and not a 'striping down'. Surely that isn't Daoism.

 

Anyway, I would say this 'cos I got two red clicks.....had I got green ones I'd be all in favour of the system and if I got ten green clicks I'd bear arms against anyone who opposes the green button elite!

 

We could categorize/quantify what 'type' you are by how many clicks, here's my suggestion for how we can work out 'who' you are:

 

 

 

10 green clicks or more = The most popular kid at school/apple for the teacher everyday and hot/handsome...pro ball player or cheerleader.

9 green clicks = sociable and gregarious...and good looking!

8 " " = Your best mate

7 " " = Friendly and a bit clever

6 " " = One of the lads

5 " " = Intelligent and not repulsive to the eye

4 " " = Interesting occasionally

3 " " = Nice, but you can't remember his/her name

2 " " = He gave you one of his sandwiches once(you forced him to)

1 " " = You pressed the green button by mistake!

0 " " = A god at going unnoticed

-1 red click = Bespectacled

-2" " = The rebellious and attractive James dean type(I'm not saying that 'cos I got -2)

-3" " = Still way cool!('cos someones bound to give me another red click)

-4" " = No good at sports, and spotty

-5" " = The fat kid

-6" " = The smelly kid

-7" " = The smelly and fat kid

-8" " = The black sheep of the family

-9" " = Think 'deliverance' and banjos

-10" " = The anti-Christ, better stone him quick!

[fizix]

Taoists of the Way (not "Taoists" of the internet ego-societies) are not concerned with "reputation", it is not the Way of Taoism, and this is a TAOIST FORUM... logic people, it's THAT simple! A taoist does not know what this word reputation means. A reputation system ingrains false values of non-Taoist nature into a Taoist community; what kind of message is that suppose to convey to newcomers who know nothing of Taoism and come here to learn? The first thing they notice is that common perceptual inadequacy deems the worthiness of a post that is most likely to be misunderstood on some level by more than half of the readers in the first place. I would not be surprised that if hypothetically a true Taoist master came on these forums and made true Taoist-natured posts of mysterious/elusive nature he would be neg rep slammed by all the newbies who don't know what is being conveyed, thus perpetuating an illusion of "this information is better than that, don't consider that information, only comprehend and believe this" as a response mechanism to this ridiculous VALUE system; don't you people understand, Taoists do not attach VALUE to anything? The sage sees all the 10,000 things as straw dogs. The sage sees all things as impartial. The sage is NOT sentimental. This system contradicts all inherent principles of Taoism; get rid of it please, it is an unnecessary nuisance.

Edited November 10, 2010 by fizix

[Brian]

...

[liminal_luke]

Personally the reputation system makes me disinclined to post at all. I'm just not interested in being judged like that. Yeah, yeah...I'm too sensitive, I know but there you have it. If someone wants to tell me whether they agree or not with my post in another post or in a private message that would be great but I don't see value in learning that my opinions aren't popular.

[suninmyeyes]

This system could end up being so bullying and silly..

[Apech]

This system could end up being so bullying and silly..

 

Yes there is a strong possibility that it will encourage the wrong sort of behaviours.

 

Big swing to NO I notice.

 

Vote now if you haven't - exercise your democratic rights! TaoBums of the world arise you having nothing to lose but your chains.

[Marblehead]

... but I don't see value in learning that my opinions aren't popular.

 

Belly laughs! Hey, you get used to it - just ask me.

[Marblehead]

... you having nothing to lose but your chains.

 

For a secoind there I thought you said 'but your change'.

[Stigweard]

Thanks all for your comments and suggestions, this discussion proves to highlight the caliber of this forum. I was about to post up a poll so thanks Apech for beating me to the line

 

Just to clarify with emphasis, the reputation system at no point was or will ever be a moderation tool. To be honest I think turning it on was merely a case of, "Hey that's a cool widget we aren't using yet!" -- "CLICK"

 

As usual I see both sides of the discussion.

 

Some interesting comments:

 

• The reputation system and Taoism are diametrically opposed
  
• Taoists of the Way (not "Taoists" of the internet ego-societies) are not concerned with "reputation"
  
• Any type of user rating/ranking system is open for abuse stemming from someone's opinion about the poster, rather than about the quality of the posts themselves.
  
• Personally the reputation system makes me disinclined to post at all.
  
• Doesn't really seem to be part of the "spirit" of this forum
  
• Sux.
  
• I think it is an interesting system. If i see someone who's given a really insightful post i usually give them a positive and feel good when i give positive feedback.
  
• I think we might be misunderstanding the purpose of the reputation function. It is designed so that any member reading a specific post can indicate that that one particular post was of positive or negative value to that individual member. It shouldn't be about judging the value of the member him/herself.
  
• So maybe this rep thing could be useful as a tool for self-investigation?
  
• Using Vaj as an example - he stimulates a lot of debate and livens up the forum but ends up with minus scores what am I supposed to do with this information?
  
• Some unpopular posts might have some great truths to them, but just got voted down because it's not popular.
  
• What it really comes down to for me is: yesterday we as a forum gave Vajrahridaya a -33 reputation. How does it feel (for anyone) to be ostracized from a community, like that?
  
• In the TTC there are guidelines for social behavior. And the government oversees these social behavior guidelines. Same here. There are guidelines for social behavior. The moderators oversee the guidelines.
  
• Moderation here is very liberal here. I am proud of our moderators. (Stig: hehehehe ... I had to throw that one in )
  
• But there are also those who sling about cruel remarks that go well beyond simple and necessary disagreement with such regularity that having a rating system might encourage such callous individuals to refrain from familiar action.
  
• There seems also something to be said for such rabble-rousers, though. I feel like they can be helpful in so far as mixing things up...
  
• If we just make people want to leave, then all that we have left is our own stupidity, with no one to challenge it.
  

 

Personally I don't give a sod whether it's on or off. But let's explore some of the thoughts presented.

 

• The reputation system is "moving away from Tao" and is "diametrically opposed to Taoism"
  

 

Now that's an interesting one. It almost makes me want to launch into a whole discussion of "what is Tao" and how on earth could anything "move away from it".

 

But to be fair the question has to be asked: "Is the Reputation System an unnecessary complication?" and "Does the Reputation System help members become more naturally minded?"

 

If it doesn't provide benefit whilst adding a complication and if it truly does create an obstacle to a free and natural mind then I would definitely say, "Down with it!"

 

I think perhaps the most relevant Taoist wisdom on this is TTC Ch 13:

 

Favor and disgrace are both causes of shock.

When one is favored one is shocked.

When one is disgraced, one is shocked.

That is because people forget the unadorned plainness of universal life.

If they knew this clarity, then what is meant by saying

that favor and disgrace are both causes of shock?

Favor is no higher than disgrace.

 

And also Ch 20:

 

In high truth,

is there any difference between yes and no?

Between good and evil,

is there any absolute distinction?

Must one fear what everyone fears?

Is it still too early for the subtle truth

to dawn on those who are so self-assertive?

 

• Any type of user rating/ranking system is open for abuse
  

 

I am quite confident that the number of people who would abuse the system would be significantly small.

 

To give a comparative example, most businesses are terrified of the idea of giving money-back guarantees because they are deathly afraid customers will "abuse the system" and rip them off. But studies clearly show that only about 2% of people would dishonestly abuse such a system.

 

I think we could expect the same here, so, as far as I am concerned, the consideration of people abusing the system shouldn't be given much priority at all.

 

• Personally the reputation system makes me disinclined to post at all.
  
• If we just make people want to leave, then all that we have left is our own stupidity, with no one to challenge it.
  

 

This is one of my main concerns. Would the reputation system interfere with the quality and quantity of people posting?

 

• There seems also something to be said for such rabble-rousers, though. I feel like they can be helpful in so far as mixing things up...
  

 

And this is valid as well. Some of the most disruptive members have been the stimulation for some of the highest quality contributions and exchanges. If the reputation system overly sanitizes the forum then we would all lose out because of it.

 

• But there are also those who sling about cruel remarks that go well beyond simple and necessary disagreement with such regularity that having a rating system might encourage such callous individuals to refrain from familiar action.
  

 

The implications of this comment, which would be the most likely reason to make me vote for the reputation system, is that there is the possibility that the reputation system would serve as a process for the forum to moderate itself and decrease the need for moderators to have to intercede at all (wouldn't that be nice ).

 

If someone saw their contributions consistently being red-tagged then maybe that would be all the force required for them adjust their contributions to become more productive and beneficial to the forum.

 

Personally I love the idea of the forum being self-determined and self-moderated. At the very least it would save me the trouble of trying remember which damn hat I am wearing when I am posting

 

Well there's my reflections on the matter. I am very much undecided. There is potential for good and there is also the risk of detriment from the reputation system.

 

I think the best course of action is to keep this valuable discussion going and get the votes up to create statistical accuracy and go with the vote.

 

[Brian]

...

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

Keep the rep system, just LIMIT the number of positive and negative votes to THREE apiece each day. There.

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

Keep the rep system, just LIMIT the number of positive and negative votes to THREE apiece each day. There.

 

Can I get extra clicks per day if I accumulate points???

 

Kind of like frequent flyer miles.

[Mal]

Personally, I am amazed at the amount of time and energy that has been consumed by worrying over the reputation system! At first, I thought all the recent talk was more tongue-in-cheek than otherwise but I soon realized that it has become a "big deal" issue to a few fellow Bums. What I want to know is, "why?"

 

At our size, basically everything has the potential to become a "big deal". (So imagine how hard important decisions are )

 

Although it is fun watching, isn't it While neuropsychology was my “thing” group dynamics is a really interesting area of psychology. If you are interested in that sort of thing you may enjoy http://users.rider.edu/~suler/psycyber/psycyber.html

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

I love this system... I just had a red click for my above post and I magically made it disappear by green clicking myself. I then went and gave myself a green click elsewhere. Try it yourself.

 

In a minute I'm gonna' do some positive affirmations in the mirror to round it off nicely....and then have a sandwich.

[Brian]

...

[Aetherous]

At first, I thought all the recent talk was more tongue-in-cheek than otherwise but I soon realized that it has become a "big deal" issue to a few fellow Bums. What I want to know is, "why?"

 

What if, despite his apparent happy life, Vajrahridaya was actually a depressed dude...what if everything was going wrong at this time for him? Then, he comes here and everyone hates on him...

 

Your perspective may be that this forum stuff is just a tiny thing in your life, but maybe not everyone shares that detached healthy view. So it's important to consider that if people are making this into a big deal, it's because it's a big deal to them.

 

It's not a big deal to me in the sense that I care what people think about me here, but it becomes a big deal to me when I consider how big of a deal it could be to someone else.

 

I like watching the Bee Taoist on youtube. He says that the purpose of a Taoist temple is like a gas station...to fill people up when they visit, so that if they were feeling depressed before they came, they leave uplifted. Whether we realize it or not, we are the bearers of these traditions on the internet...this place is like a temple, to learn and disseminate the arts. It'd be a pretty crappy temple if anyone visited and all of the priests and monks wanted to kick him/her out, and make them feel like the most worthless person around.

 

What if Vajrahridaya finally had enough, and the -33 reputation was enough to cause him to commit suicide? You never know! That one potential event is enough for me to make this into a big deal. It can be the worst feeling in the world to be completely outcast by a society.

 

Even if we're all bickering, and being egotistical assholes to one another...the very last thing we should do here is ostracize an individual.

 

Another thing: if you don't care about anything, simply don't comment. Why spend time ridiculing others for taking action and having a purpose in their lives? Is your day that boring, that you feel the need to pass judgment on people who are trying to change their world (this forum included) into a better place?

[suninmyeyes]

I love this system... I just had a red click for my above post and I magically made it disappear by green clicking myself. I then went and gave myself a green click elsewhere. Try it yourself.

 

In a minute I'm gonna' do some positive affirmations in the mirror to round it off nicely....and then have a sandwich.

You are making me laugh .

 

 

..I forgot to mention earliear that I have voted no.

[Brian]

...

[Aetherous]

Are you really that upset?

 

Wanna keep playing "what if"???

 

No. I want to focus on the fact that a person can (and already did) get a very large negative "reputation" here, and then a moderator will snarkily announce "looks like the reputation system is working" and add some sarcastic emoticons, to further drive the point home that the person sucks...

 

We shouldn't have that happening, and we can come up with many what-ifs about what that person could do. But that's not the point. The point is we as a Taoist forum shouldn't have a system in place which can make people feel like crap about themselves. What they do with their feelings is partly our responsibility!

 

For example, kids that are picked on in school shouldn't be told to just suck it up, or work on their feelings...the bullies play a major role in it. The picked on kids shouldn't be thought of as crazy if they engage in self destructive behavior, or fight back against their oppressors...those reactions are understandable. The bullying should simply stop happening, and that would solve many problems.

 

People post here with their best efforts. They put their life into their practice and beliefs. I don't think we should be so quick to shoot that down, even if we disagree.

 

However, a superior and judgmental attitude, I have no problem with shooting down. Consider how you've acted judgmental and uncaring in this topic. Also, consider how your last post served no purpose except to let off steam.

[Aetherous]

To make things clearer for you...

 

LOL! Actually, it really IS rather fun to watch. A character study, of sorts...

 

This kind of attitude is judgmental and uncaring.