Worlds Most Powerful Kung Fu Master

[TheTaoBum]

"Master Cheuk Fung has over fifty years of experience in martial arts, meditation and healing." LOL!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Vdzj9qjlO4

Edited November 10, 2010 by TheTaoBum

[Sloppy Zhang]

If you knew anything about real internal martial arts, you'd know that touching a master like that is like getting tazed each time!

 

These people get off easy, since they are already open to the energy, he doesn't have to exert for them to feel it. But if it was against a determined attacker, he'd have to pump them full of so much electricity that they'd probably die before they felt it.

 

which is why this intense master will never be in the UFC or any other "sport", because his skills are just too deadly, no one would comprehend it, and UFC would never make any money.

 

[/sarcasm]

 

*ahem* Of the little yiquan stuff I've actually seen, most of it is pretty grounded in reality- I've seen yiquan guys training against boxing jabs, working with heavy bags, and generally addressing things that occur quite frequently in modern fighting, but that you don't see a lot of in traditional martial arts.

 

Big emphasis, from what little I know, on standing practice, in other words, the fundamentals, basics of the basics, which is good. A lot of people get caught up in techniques and forms that when push comes to shove, they don't have the ability to actually DO any of it to someone who isn't their student.

 

Don't know what this video was trying to show. Qi development perhaps? Probably not anything that was supposed to be taken as "you can do this to someone who grabs you", probably more like, "look at what happens when you've practiced for a long time and someone sensitive touches you."

 

Still, as always, I advocate a more scientific approach to investigating these phenomena and abilities of teachers/masters. Because unless there's some hard studies done about these guys, they just make for some.... uh.... entertaining? videos.

Edited November 10, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[TheTaoBum]

If you knew anything about real internal martial arts, you'd know that touching a master like that is like getting tazed each time!

 

These people get off easy, since they are already open to the energy, he doesn't have to exert for them to feel it. But if it was against a determined attacker, he'd have to pump them full of so much electricity that they'd probably die before they felt it.

 

which is why this intense master will never be in the UFC or any other "sport", because his skills are just too deadly, no one would comprehend it, and UFC would never make any money.

 

[/sarcasm]

 

*ahem* Of the little yiquan stuff I've actually seen, most of it is pretty grounded in reality- I've seen yiquan guys training against boxing jabs, working with heavy bags, and generally addressing things that occur quite frequently in modern fighting, but that you don't see a lot of in traditional martial arts.

 

Big emphasis, from what little I know, on standing practice, in other words, the fundamentals, basics of the basics, which is good. A lot of people get caught up in techniques and forms that when push comes to shove, they don't have the ability to actually DO any of it to someone who isn't their student.

 

Don't know what this video was trying to show. Qi development perhaps? Probably not anything that was supposed to be taken as "you can do this to someone who grabs you", probably more like, "look at what happens when you've practiced for a long time and someone sensitive touches you."

 

Still, as always, I advocate a more scientific approach to investigating these phenomena and abilities of teachers/masters. Because unless there's some hard studies done about these guys, they just make for some.... uh.... entertaining? videos.

 

Oh do they make some entertaining videos hehe. I just dont know how people can act this way and not feel ashamed. Anybody watching this from 100 miles away can see its so fake. Why would they even bother is my question ?

[Sloppy Zhang]

Oh do they make some entertaining videos hehe. I just dont know how people can act this way and not feel ashamed. Anybody watching this from 100 miles away can see its so fake. Why would they even bother is my question ?

 

I dunno. I'm sure it's quite complicated and varies from case to case.

[thelerner]

We'd play around with this kind of thing during ki Class in Aikido. My instructor was pretty good at bouncing people off him. With a little instruction and some practice its not hard to do under controlled situations.

 

The 'secret' is in timing. There is a fraction of a second when applies in a push where you can 'catch them' with a subtle motion that takes up slack as they push. The motion is very small and if your timing is right the force they use bounces back against them.

 

The better you are the more instinctive it is. Its a tool that looks impressive but is not necessarily the most useful technique in a fight. It can be used against a fist, but the timing is so exquisite its a hell of a lot easier to just step back.

 

Michael (nidan)

[Mal]

The 'secret' is in timing. There is a fraction of a second when applies in a push where you can 'catch them' with a subtle motion that takes up slack as they push. The motion is very small and if your timing is right the force they use bounces back against them.

 

We have a similar thing (I think, not having touched hands with Aikido) called Jar Lig (apologies to any who speak Cantonese) where you borrow the in coming energy, and then give it back at the right time.

 

I dunno. I'm sure it's quite complicated and varies from case to case.

 

Exactly, one of the people in that video posted at TTB a few times.

[Sloppy Zhang]

We'd play around with this kind of thing during ki Class in Aikido. My instructor was pretty good at bouncing people off him. With a little instruction and some practice its not hard to do under controlled situations.

 

The 'secret' is in timing. There is a fraction of a second when applies in a push where you can 'catch them' with a subtle motion that takes up slack as they push. The motion is very small and if your timing is right the force they use bounces back against them.

 

The better you are the more instinctive it is. Its a tool that looks impressive but is not necessarily the most useful technique in a fight. It can be used against a fist, but the timing is so exquisite its a hell of a lot easier to just step back.

 

Michael (nidan)

 

Sounds interesting. What do you mean by "takes up slack as they push"? Are you following their force until they are extended, then pushing back, or pushing back into whatever slack they have? Or something else?

 

Exactly, one of the people in that video posted at TTB a few times.

 

Interesting.

 

I don't want to say that people who make these videos are deliberately trying to misrepresent themselves or their skills (though it may be the case in some situations for some people). Some people generally believe in the things they are doing. That said, not a lot of people are willing to go through the rigorous testing needed to be done before they know for sure whether whatever they are practicing is, well, is able to do what they think it can do. And for a lot of people, they'll never need a system that can do that.

 

So it can get complicated and depends.

[TheTaoBum]

Hi Lerner & Mal Thanks for weighing in on this topic. Your input is much appreciated guys, Thankyou.

 

I think its almost impossible for a laymen such as myself to actually grasp what is really happening in those videos. But i know your not all crazy, so something must be going on.

 

Regards.

[Mal]

I think its almost impossible for a laymen such as myself to actually grasp what is really happening in those videos.

 

Heck I can't tell it's not "fake" either, perhaps others can "see" that much detail. I still need to feel it myself in person.

[thelerner]

Sounds interesting. What do you mean by "takes up slack as they push"? Are you following their force until they are extended, then pushing back, or pushing back into whatever slack they have? Or something else?

No, its not taking in, then sending back. Its not receiving the energy in the first place; bouncing it back at the point of contact. A fun exercise was to 'pop' people back who were shoving you at the shoulders. The classic prefight move where the aggressor starts by pushing you back. With proper timing they push hard at you with both hands and are sent backwards as if jerked, like in the video. It takes some training, but I had students in my kids class who could get it.

 

This might give you a feeling for it. Make a fist w/ one hand and punch into your other (open) hand a few times. You hit it, and it (the hands) moves backward. There's a point at contact, a fraction of a second as skin touches skin, where if you flick the open hand forward (open the fingers, feels like pop, not a push) it bounces the punch backwards. Thats the feeling and timing you want.

 

If someone grabs your arm and uses it to push you, there is moment where they move the skin back. Its very small maybe half an inch, thats also the timing where you'd 'pop' them backwards. In Ki Aikido the person who takes up slack first has a large advantage. Its not just the skin, after slack is taken up, there's a tiny bit of slack in each joint that is ever so slightly taken up.

 

Its fun to play around with, but its not necessarily a sign of particular mastery. My Aikido instructor would do many demonstrations of having multiple people push against him etcetera, but he'd always let us in on how it was done. For example in the classic sitting and having multiple people press against you, say 6 or 7 pushing. The truth is one is not too bad, 2 is harder, 3 harder still but after that it gets easier. They can't apply there force with coordination. That little trick of taking up slack as the first one begins to push makes the trick almost effortless. There force is dissipated.

 

 

I think the video is real, the people were popped back by a small movement just as they made contact. The timing is exquisite.

 

 

Michael

[TheTaoBum]

No, its not taking in, then sending back. Its not receiving the energy in the first place; bouncing it back at the point of contact. A fun exercise was to 'pop' people back who were shoving you at the shoulders. The classic prefight move where the aggressor starts by pushing you back. With proper timing they push hard at you with both hands and are sent backwards as if jerked, like in the video. It takes some training, but I had students in my kids class who could get it.

 

This might give you a feeling for it. Make a fist w/ one hand and punch into your other (open) hand a few times. You hit it, and it (the hands) moves backward. There's a point at contact, a fraction of a second as skin touches skin, where if you flick the open hand forward (open the fingers, feels like pop, not a push) it bounces the punch backwards. Thats the feeling and timing you want.

 

If someone grabs your arm and uses it to push you, there is moment where they move the skin back. Its very small maybe half an inch, thats also the timing where you'd 'pop' them backwards. In Ki Aikido the person who takes up slack first has a large advantage. Its not just the skin, after slack is taken up, there's a tiny bit of slack in each joint that is ever so slightly taken up.

 

Its fun to play around with, but its not necessarily a sign of particular mastery. My Aikido instructor would do many demonstrations of having multiple people push against him etcetera, but he'd always let us in on how it was done. For example in the classic sitting and having multiple people press against you, say 6 or 7 pushing. The truth is one is not too bad, 2 is harder, 3 harder still but after that it gets easier. They can't apply there force with coordination. That little trick of taking up slack as the first one begins to push makes the trick almost effortless. There force is dissipated.

 

 

I think the video is real, the people were popped back by a small movement just as they made contact. The timing is exquisite.

 

 

Michael

 

Ok I think i know what you are talking about lerner. However to do as you say then the person must be locked or substantial as they say, only then can one issue force (as in push hands for example)

 

But these people in the video are not locked or substantial in any way whatsoever. i still dont see how they are repelled,uprooted,and thrown to the ground.

 

Thanks.

[Sloppy Zhang]

No, its not taking in, then sending back. Its not receiving the energy in the first place; bouncing it back at the point of contact. A fun exercise was to 'pop' people back who were shoving you at the shoulders. The classic prefight move where the aggressor starts by pushing you back. With proper timing they push hard at you with both hands and are sent backwards as if jerked, like in the video. It takes some training, but I had students in my kids class who could get it.

 

This might give you a feeling for it. Make a fist w/ one hand and punch into your other (open) hand a few times. You hit it, and it (the hands) moves backward. There's a point at contact, a fraction of a second as skin touches skin, where if you flick the open hand forward (open the fingers, feels like pop, not a push) it bounces the punch backwards. Thats the feeling and timing you want.

 

If someone grabs your arm and uses it to push you, there is moment where they move the skin back. Its very small maybe half an inch, thats also the timing where you'd 'pop' them backwards. In Ki Aikido the person who takes up slack first has a large advantage. Its not just the skin, after slack is taken up, there's a tiny bit of slack in each joint that is ever so slightly taken up.

 

Its fun to play around with, but its not necessarily a sign of particular mastery. My Aikido instructor would do many demonstrations of having multiple people push against him etcetera, but he'd always let us in on how it was done. For example in the classic sitting and having multiple people press against you, say 6 or 7 pushing. The truth is one is not too bad, 2 is harder, 3 harder still but after that it gets easier. They can't apply there force with coordination. That little trick of taking up slack as the first one begins to push makes the trick almost effortless. There force is dissipated.

 

 

I think the video is real, the people were popped back by a small movement just as they made contact. The timing is exquisite.

 

 

Michael

 

Thanks for the explanation!

[thelerner]

Ok I think i know what you are talking about lerner. However to do as you say then the person must be locked or substantial as they say, only then can one issue force (as in push hands for example)

 

But these people in the video are not locked or substantial in any way whatsoever. i still dont see how they are repelled,uprooted,and thrown to the ground.

 

Thanks.

 

For throws you need to be connected (or as you say locked). The technique of taking up slack on a person is used constantly. The bounce is different. The other person's energy is disburse or sent back instantly. Try my example of punching your hand. With proper timing the hitting fist bounces off the receiving hand. Once you have a feeling for that timing, with practice you can have someone punch your open hand and bounce them back (beware it can hurt their wrist, & the movement/feeling is popping the hand open, the fingers spread out and hands moves minimally forward-you're not pushing back, you're popping, mentally there is a quiet kiai of PAHHH).

 

I want to add this though. In my years of doing and watching randori and sparring I haven't seen people use this technique outside of demonstrations, where quite frankly you know when and what is coming at you. The timing has to be very precise. That's why its easy to do it to your own punch, harder to do with anothers punch (or push)when you have an idea of roughly when its coming, as in a demonstration, but very high level to do in real combat.

 

What I've been taught is you don't block, you don't bounce, you get out of the way.

 

Michael

[Stigweard]

What I've been taught is you don't block, you don't bounce, you get out of the way.

And you pressure test the hell out of your style so you don't drift off into fairy land

 

[TheTaoBum]

Yes, theres alot of BS out there regarding push hands,jings,etc. This one here had me in stitches.

[thelerner]

And you pressure test the hell out of your style so you don't drift off into fairy land

 

 

I'd have to say we drifted into fairy land all the time, and its a pleasant place. Developing Mind Body coordination was top on the list and self defense secondary. That being said you weren't expected to be a push over or to compete in the MMA. Its good to cross train w/ other dojos and have other martial artists visitors. I'm lucky my instructor was good friends with an amateur boxer so we'd work more on jabs and the like then some others.

 

The important thing is know when you're in fairyland, and all martial arts traipse into that territory. From linear old style karate to take it to the ground, others opponents be damned BJJ. What you see in demos is usually the silly stuff. Take board breaking, it impresses the crowd but has little combat value. The way a person sits and how they focus there attention, that impresses me.

 

Real life isn't the movies. Someone here had a clip of Penn and Tellers show B.S. on martial arts and much of its mocking rang true, whether its traditional or kill'em all 'realistic'. Still there is much gain out in most martial arts. My friends in 'harder' martial arts like kick boxing and amateur boxing got the crap beaten out them in class all the time. But we all got into better shape and honed skills and general awareness.

 

Aikido had and has very important lessons for me and was just what I needed at that point in my life. The amazing Ki-ai master may well lead a really good spiritual life and probably should be happy with that and not take into the ring

 

Michael

[Sloppy Zhang]

Here's a video that I came across a while ago:

 

 

And it's kinda the stuff I'm talking about. You see a lot of people doing the traditional training methods (heavy emphasis on standing), but you also see them working with modern training equipment (heavy bags, boxing gloves), and then (at the end) you see them sparring against resisting opponents.

 

So, yeah, I'm all for traditional arts. Just don't get so absorbed in what is "tradition" and what is "not tradition" that you forget to actually make sure that what you're doing WORKS.

[Sloppy Zhang]

For throws you need to be connected (or as you say locked). The technique of taking up slack on a person is used constantly. The bounce is different. The other person's energy is disburse or sent back instantly. Try my example of punching your hand. With proper timing the hitting fist bounces off the receiving hand. Once you have a feeling for that timing, with practice you can have someone punch your open hand and bounce them back (beware it can hurt their wrist, & the movement/feeling is popping the hand open, the fingers spread out and hands moves minimally forward-you're not pushing back, you're popping, mentally there is a quiet kiai of PAHHH).

 

I want to add this though. In my years of doing and watching randori and sparring I haven't seen people use this technique outside of demonstrations, where quite frankly you know when and what is coming at you. The timing has to be very precise. That's why its easy to do it to your own punch, harder to do with anothers punch (or push)when you have an idea of roughly when its coming, as in a demonstration, but very high level to do in real combat.

 

What I've been taught is you don't block, you don't bounce, you get out of the way.

 

Michael

 

Skip ahead to about 1:19, is this what you're talking about:

 

[Martial Development]

I'd have to say we drifted into fairy land all the time, and its a pleasant place. Developing Mind Body coordination was top on the list and self defense secondary. That being said you weren't expected to be a push over or to compete in the MMA. Its good to cross train w/ other dojos and have other martial artists visitors. I'm lucky my instructor was good friends with an amateur boxer so we'd work more on jabs and the like then some others.

 

The important thing is know when you're in fairyland, and all martial arts traipse into that territory.

 

Surely I can't be the only one who found legitimate spiritual training to be unforgivingly brutal?

 

The fake stuff is fake. It doesn't have a redeeming quality, or need one. Spirituality and combat are not two ends of a spectrum, I would say they are closer to one end of the same spectrum. What exactly is spirituality without death?

 

Real life isn't the movies. Someone here had a clip of Penn and Tellers show B.S. on martial arts and much of its mocking rang true, whether its traditional or kill'em all 'realistic'. Still there is much gain out in most martial arts. My friends in 'harder' martial arts like kick boxing and amateur boxing got the crap beaten out them in class all the time. But we all got into better shape and honed skills and general awareness.

 

Penn and Teller on martial arts

 

Hardcore kickboxers in bad shape, and with little skill or awareness? I think you will find those results to be atypical.

 

The benefits of an exoteric martial art are...obvious. Indisputable.

 

If you can sell it, then it must be real. Merchantability is a kind of reality. There is a problem when that becomes the only reality...but if you list the styles of martial arts afflicted by that disease, boxing must be near the bottom of the list.

 

The amazing Ki-ai master may well lead a really good spiritual life and probably should be happy with that and not take into the ring

 

OK, he wasn't a great fighter, obviously. But his wisdom quotient was zero too. So if I were him, I'd ask my guru for a refund. Loudly, with kiai power.

[Martial Development]

*ahem* Of the little yiquan stuff I've actually seen, most of it is pretty grounded in reality- I've seen yiquan guys training against boxing jabs, working with heavy bags, and generally addressing things that occur quite frequently in modern fighting, but that you don't see a lot of in traditional martial arts.

 

Modern fighting?

Traditional martial arts?

What are these things?

The more I hear about them, the less I know.

Believe me, I'd like to know a lot more.

[Martial Development]

Here's a video that I came across a while ago:

 

 

And it's kinda the stuff I'm talking about. You see a lot of people doing the traditional training methods (heavy emphasis on standing), but you also see them working with modern training equipment (heavy bags, boxing gloves), and then (at the end) you see them sparring against resisting opponents.

 

So, yeah, I'm all for traditional arts. Just don't get so absorbed in what is "tradition" and what is "not tradition" that you forget to actually make sure that what you're doing WORKS.

 

There is nothing more traditional than beating a solid object with your fists. Nothing.

 

Standing around is not traditional martial arts--it can't be more than 2500-3000 years old, and besides, fighting with that stuff is an off-label use.

 

Was Musashi a traditional martial artist, or a modern fighter? Who should we ask? His "resisting opponents"? How about Genghis Khan?

 

Oh well. Just ignore my recent comments. I've been drinking green tea all day.

[minkus]

In he's book the tao of yichuan, Jan Diepersloot describes this as a game of sensing awareness.

 

Both the teacher and the student agree in this game to be played.

 

The attacker projects he's intention to a place and the student reads and reacts according to the intention.

 

This is subtle awareness training.

 

The attacker will probably not be able to use this in a real fight though training awareness and intention will surely help train overal fightskill.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Modern fighting?

Traditional martial arts?

What are these things?

The more I hear about them, the less I know.

Believe me, I'd like to know a lot more.

 

There is nothing more traditional than beating a solid object with your fists. Nothing.

 

Standing around is not traditional martial arts--it can't be more than 2500-3000 years old, and besides, fighting with that stuff is an off-label use.

 

Was Musashi a traditional martial artist, or a modern fighter? Who should we ask? His "resisting opponents"? How about Genghis Khan?

 

Oh well. Just ignore my recent comments. I've been drinking green tea all day.

 

I'm saying "traditional" and "modern" arts in terms of dates and the types of techniques you'd most likely see in a random encounter off the street, or in an amateur or professional fight.

 

Many arts that are in practice today have been in existence for hundreds, if not thousands, of years.

 

Some training philosophies of historical arts have the same philosophy that modern combatives taught in the military have. So to that extent, you can say they are the same.

 

But I'm loosely categorizing them in terms of their time periods. You can say "2,000 years old isn't really old by any stretch", and that's fair in the grand scheme of things. But that drifts into a semantical argument. I'm not trying to come up with a cut and dried labeling system of martial arts, because depending on what you want to look at, you can arrange them any which way.

 

My point is that people get mired in how their teachers trained, how their teacher's teachers trained, and so on and so forth. So they see people using heavy bags and boxing gloves and say, "that's not how we train, instead we wrap our hands in bandages and hit wooden dummies." Yeah, you can say, "well both involve hitting shit!" but not everyone does that. And seeing as how not everyone has access to wooden dummies, a lot of people just don't practice that part. Then that aspect of training gets lost, so now you've got a group of people who aren't even training their art in a proper or effective way- you've got people who train to hit stuff who've never even hit anything before!

 

[/rant]

 

Point is, don't get hung up on my off the cuff classifications

[Mal]

In he's book the tao of yichuan, Jan Diepersloot describes this as a game of sensing awareness.

 

Both the teacher and the student agree in this game to be played.

 

The attacker projects he's intention to a place and the student reads and reacts according to the intention.

 

This is subtle awareness training.

 

The attacker will probably not be able to use this in a real fight though training awareness and intention will surely help train overal fightskill.

 

Santi also taught me to apply our intention from KAP to achieve that effect in my martial arts. It's not that hard to do and can be used as a trick to confuse an opponent.

[Edward M]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyDkfd3BrTc

 

posting this clip because i want to make the point that genuine good martial artists can aslo have ego trips as well.... which brings me to a question, can you really tread both the martial and the spritual path at the same time? these daoist martial artists who cultivate all seem to lovehurting others physically. maybe it is healthy to be complete or aknowledge you like to hurt people, or on the other hand maybe the two paths just dont go together and you have to renounce violence completely.

 

peace

Ed

 

ps could someone post this vieo properley i dont know how to!