why does 'evil' or people who do bad always seem to win or be able to succeed

[jenn992]

this question is....is there any justice on this planet anywhere or any real karma? it seems that evil, those who do bad deeds, or anything that is immoral is allowed to get away with its wrongdoing..no matter what..evil seems to be able to win with no problem...while karmically good is screwed...I dont know how taoism views good/evil but from the basic description of it...why is this the universal law it seems? ive only witnessed, ignorant, clueless stupid people not suffer, get away with anything, evil people get praised....and get away with anything they want...why does the general human base seem to want to hurt good and praise evil..? if something bad happens to a good person..people will defend the abusers from what ive seen except for a few minor situations and especially if the victim really isnt a victim then they get defended...do humans gravitate towards evil or doing injustice....this is what it seems to me...people dont stand up against wrong instead they stand up against what is 'right'...and made a big deal when a deal shouldnt be made...and dont make a deal when it should be...the universal laws seem to fit towards persecution of the best people and praise of the most evil and worst people...it almost seems in order to get any respect from people you have to have some evil in you otherwise people dislike those who are geuinely good and try to take advantage of them...but the worst part is, their being able to get away with anything they want towards whoever they want...and living arrogantly happily..while committing evils...you begin to wonder who or how this planet is run...and why...is there an explanation for this

[Marblehead]

Hi Jenn,

 

I have to disagree with you simply because I am a Taoist, a positivist, and an optimist.

 

Evil does not always win, good does not always lose.

 

Truth is, good and evil are just value judgements we place on things and events.

 

"Good and evil" is one of the dualities of the human brain. That is all. Beyond valuation, things and events just are.

 

Now, I do understand what you are saying and your justification for saying it. But bottom line, we each create, in our mind, all the good and evil in our life.

 

If you prefer good then you must stand up in support of it. If you wish to remove evil from your life you must stand up against it.

 

Better still would be to create a life for yourself where you are beyond good and evil.

 

My best wishes to you.

[jenn992]

Hi and thanks... but evil does occur..i mean persecution, oppression, injustice, etc...however you want to label it...it happens and is a part of this planet and life...its true that evil doesnt 'always' win, and good always lose, but it still seems to me that those who do wrong can do so so easily...and with no problem...and ive witnessed humans only accept it..and in fact many times argue for it...instead of going against it.. I think its a basic moral base of do not hurt others..oor ruin others or do bad to others...etc.. why is it that karma or some universal force does not stop all thi evil or wrongdoing..i know that's a lame thing to ask with the notion that...there is so much bad in this world and people ask--why does God allow this? I can understand why it 'happens'...or how it happens...but wha ti dont understand is that the universal karmic forces...do not seem to favor the punishment towards those who do this wrong...(not tha its really that but that's what it feels like)...it seems as if good luck, success befalls those who do wrong..or they are successful in their bad attempts to hurt others.while those who are hurt or victimized..seem tohave more and more trouble...im wondering if this is a karmic force...or something is going on ...or that's just how the universe works...and if for instance someone is being hurt in this lifetime for something they did in the past..why is it that those are being hurt while they do good...and not while they are 'evil' in other so-called 'past lives' just assuming past lives exist...there just seem to be a lot of immoral people who succeed with no problem and live prosperous lives...or bad people or dishonest people or just flat out 'evil' people and this success stems more arrogance from them...while those who might deserve it and arent arrogant don't get it...it just seems to be really unjust and maybe there is a reasoning for it--in the islamic belief, it says that those who are evil get their blessings in this life, while those who ar good, get the blessings in the afterlife..(though that still isnt a thorough explanation for any of it)...i wonder how other belief systems perceive this...or what it means because, soemtimes it feels as if the universe is supporting all types of wrongdoing or immorality or making it esay for people to do wrong or bad deeds...and allowing them to get away with their destruction of others....ive sometimes witnesed what 'seems' to be 'karma'...rarely...sometimes ive witnessed it happen right after a person does something..but its usually something minor, but major karma as in...people doing wrong to you and getting a repercussion for it..seems sort of rare or you can just say well it was going to happen anyway...how can you know if thta's karma or just circumstance or fate...im just wondering if there are any real laws of karma, or if it does exist, within a lifetime...and if its' just random or actually monitored or occurring through some system...

Edited November 13, 2010 by jenn992

[Marblehead]

Hi Jenn,

 

Okay. We are getting closer to being able to discuss this in a rational and logical manner.

 

However, in order for me to discuss it properly I need to ask you for a temporary (permanent, if possible) consideration: Can you, in this discussion, remove from you mind all thoughts of gods of any form and all concepts of karma?

 

The reason I ask this is because I cannot discuss it if you invoke 'the will of god' (or lack thereof) or some concept of karma or predestined events.

 

There are natural processes in the universe, if you have read many of my posts I refer to these processes Tzujan. Science calls them the 'laws of physics'.

 

Within these processes of Tzujan is the process of 'cause and effect'. Given enough factual data (we will never have all of this) we can explain anything that happens in the Manifest universe.

 

BTW I do understand what you are saying and the questions you are asking but I cannot speak to them if you invoke any supernatural concepts into the discussion. I actually do agree with you regarding the main point you are driving at although I suggest that what you are pointing at is not an absolute and I suggest that we do have the power to effect those things that happen directly in our life.

[Apech]

As a tribute to Marblehead I will not mention the word karma but I would say this ...

 

its obvious from looking at the world that there is no justice dispensed from heaven and that nasty people do nasty things and yet seem to get away with it - can be very successful, rich and seemingly have everything they want, while others who are altruistic by nature, kind and so on get all sorts of shit heaped upon them. That is just how it is.

 

But is also true, mechanistically that if you lie, steal and harm others then there are results from these actions - results which are external (bad done in the world) and internal (mental and emotional disharmony). You have to make a personal choice about what sort of person you want to be. If you are attached to success/failure, power or money, or just getting one over someone else ... then it is very hard to make this choice because you are pre-determining who you will be.

 

If you choose freedom, if you value yourself beyond the pettiness of jealousy and revenge then you can start to work to gain the personal power to change yourself. But to do this you have to accept that the world may still dish out the same bad things. Maybe things will improve but maybe not. This is something to do with self-respect and courage.

 

It is natural to worry about worldly injustice - but really it is best to focus on who you are and accepting responsibility for yourself ... see the world as a testing ground.

[John Zen]

ive only witnessed, ignorant, clueless stupid people not suffer

 

You have not witnessed much!

 

Those that live in ignorance suffer so much more than those that are enlightened. They just don't know it. Ignorant even of their own ignorance. Do not begrudge the numb, who are incapable of feeling pain: for they are themselves incapable of feeling true happiness.

[John Zen]

there is so much bad in this world and people ask--why does God allow this? I can understand why it 'happens'...or how it happens...but wha ti dont understand is that the universal karmic forces...do not seem to favor the punishment towards those who do this wrong...

 

There is no God, except for the Divine Force that exists within all of us. No spiritual father that makes things right for those who are good (If he existed, you wouldn't be having this dilemma, would you?)

 

It is each person's responsibility to create their own life however they choose. There is much suffering (and there always will be) in the world. Good people suffering at the expense of the bad. You can stress about these injustices, and fight your whole life to rid the world of it, but in the end, you will only have taken one drop of water out of the ocean of suffering in the world.

 

You, now, in this moment, to answer the questions you ask, must only realize one thing:

 

You control your own life. Do not allow yourself to suffer at the expense of bad people.

 

You cannot control the suffering of the good at the expense of the bad elsewhere. Nor should you. It is their life to liberate. If you despair about the injustices, then you are just one more victim of the evil. You are one more person suffering at the hands of evil. It is your choice. Be happy for all of the good that exists in your life!

[Mal]

(moved)

 

is anyone else thinking of Non?

[Jetsun]

I don't believe in evil, only unconsciousness

[bindo]

why does 'evil' or people who do bad always seem to win or be able to succeed

 

I share this rant with you jenn. I've seen it over and over again. People will steal, cheat, and lie, treat others poorly, and yet will go on and prosper and even receive praise. I believe, however, at some point, it will catch up with them. Maybe on the soul level. It's the blind leading the blind, or as jetsun said, unconsciousness. Unfortunately, we just have to deal with it. In the meanwhile, it can be really frustrating. I had to leave my job last year because of this kind of thing. I didn't want to be around it any longer.

[themaninthesuit]

Hello well i get what you mean jen. Until I began practicing taoism last december, I have been depressed the last six years or so now and I used to think like you did. But it only appears that good people get the shit end of the stick. Maybe try to change your perception because evil things can only exist if you see things as good. And even though evil people seem to never experience consequences for their actions they do. People that are driven by their desires and wear masks to hide their true selves will never really be happy. I know because that is how I used to be, they may feel happy and that life can not get any better, but there will always be something missing and they will never be content with themselves or their nature.

 

Remember that what happens to you is ordained by nature, but what you do is by your own. All things that happen happen because it is in natures capacity. I have been trying to look at things that happen to me like its something that nature prescribed to me. If it was not meant to push me farther down my path of life then it would not happen in the first place. To those selfish evil people, pay them no mind let them play their part, they are here to make us prove we are what we know we are. And when its their time to learn the truths about the world treat them with humility and compassion.

[themaninthesuit]

Oh sorry I forgot to mention I read a thread you started in the lobby. For you to have gone through so much already you must be a strong person. And since nature has not returned you to the source there are still things you must do here. Keep moving forward to free yourself in the face of depressing circumstances. The beautiful thing about life is you can always learn to live life another day. If we were put here to carry a great weight then the very things we hate are here to build those muscles.

[electric gravity]

People who get their karma for wrong doings immediately are blessed.

 

If you do bad things and you dont get punished watch out it could mean a few (not good) things.....

 

Karma can never act against it self ( karma is not revenge or for personal justice.)

 

Karma is not so simple every entity has its own karma and its own karma cycle ex. your family, your state, the planet, your country, you and so on. And these cycles inter cross and affect each other.

 

Karma could be explained like this- The force that balances energies so things can grow.

 

The study of the actual nature of karma is a very deep subject.

Edited November 13, 2010 by electric gravity

[surfingbudda]

Also i think a buddhist way of looking at it is that if karma doesn't catch up with the evil doer in this life, then the next life they will pay for they're deeds and drop down in the chain of life and maybe instead of a being born a person, they'll be dog, or slug . For example I doubt Hitler came back too high of a life form in his next life. Of course everyone will have different views on this issue.

[electric gravity]

SurfingBudda,

 

There's more to that you continue to accumulate karma after your death because your actions in life is still affecting the living world for ex. like Hitler.

 

but a change of heart in you could change the energy behind your actions that have already been done this might manifest like ex. (hitler) some people might just all of a sudden lose the inspiration to follow in his footsteps.

 

There's the action and the energy behind the action. Without forgivness, mercy, or some type of yin force (like gravity) the energy behind the action might live on forever.

[Non]

It's not always true.. but there is an ancient past we have had where it took violence, ie man against man to survive, through competition.

[Friend]

Edited November 16, 2011 by Friend

[manitou]

I look at karma as being akin to 'for every action there is an equal and opposing reaction'. I don't think it's necessary to view it through eyes of good or evil. There is no good or evil person - we are all one. We all have Mother Theresa and Charles Manson inside us. Being judgmental and labeling the behavior just cuts off our options.

And I guess it also depends on what it means to 'succeed'. Is success measured in getting promoted or becoming wealthy? These things are just devices used by spirit (Tao within us) to distract us so we can ultimately find what's real and true. The things you're calling success may not be real and true at all.

[suninmyeyes]

I look at karma as being akin to 'for every action there is an equal and opposing reaction'. I don't think it's necessary to view it through eyes of good or evil. There is no good or evil person - we are all one. We all have Mother Theresa and Charles Manson inside us. Being judgmental and labeling the behavior just cuts off our options.

And I guess it also depends on what it means to 'succeed'. Is success measured in getting promoted or becoming wealthy? These things are just devices used by spirit (Tao within us) to distract us so we can ultimately find what's real and true. The things you're calling success may not be real and true at all.

Nicely put Manitou.

As Manitou said "there is no good or evil person"..Good and evil are inside of us all.It is just the matter of discovering or learning how to choose the actions/thoughts in order to create more harmonious life.

Or even learning to want to have harmonious ,peaceful life. And that we are actually free and allowed to feel good .

It can be hard as most of us have been shaped most of our lives to feel some sort of self destruction fear ,guilt..Mistaking identity,that sometimes has extremly hard grip and produces almost masochistic pleasure.

[mike1234]

Good loses because it takes into account what is best for ALL parties involved. Evil is out for self.

 

I started a marketing business with the idea that I was going to do value based marketing: Offering people things that they needed, helping them make logical choices. The truth is that people do not need 90% of the products that are available, and they do not use LOGIC to make decisions-- People make emotional decisions. To be successful, I had to get rid of the everyone wins philosophy. I needed to take advantage of emotions, and have people buy things that they don't need. In a world where everyone wins most businesses could not exist. I struggle everyday with making the right decision. I could easily make 100k every month if I was willing to screw people over, and the kicker is that it would be 100% legal! Guilt keeps me from having ANY fun in this world. DAMN compassion, DAMN values, Damn morals... I suppose I have peace of mind.

 

I agree with the OP-- This world is evil, and a truly moral man will have a hard time getting to the top. Someone always gets screwed. Study the history or Marketing and PR--- Learn about the shift from utilitarian marketing to emotive marketing.

Edited November 14, 2010 by mike1234

[leo17]

I look at karma as being akin to 'for every action there is an equal and opposing reaction'. I don't think it's necessary to view it through eyes of good or evil. There is no good or evil person - we are all one. We all have Mother Theresa and Charles Manson inside us. Being judgmental and labeling the behavior just cuts off our options.

And I guess it also depends on what it means to 'succeed'. Is success measured in getting promoted or becoming wealthy? These things are just devices used by spirit (Tao within us) to distract us so we can ultimately find what's real and true. The things you're calling success may not be real and true at all.

I have to agree with manitou on her definition of karma--that for every action there is an equal and opposing reaction. Much of what we are now is based on the choices that we made in the past and sometimes those choices weren't simply a matter of good and evil but maybe the lesser of two evils, or the better of two goods. At any rate we all have the potential to do good and evil but we can choose one or the other based on our understandings of our individual situations.

 

As far as why "bad always seems to win over good", I don't think it that's true. I prefer to believe that there is a balance of power between the two--you can't have one without the other. And where you see someone doing bad and being rewarded for it, there is always someone doing good and being rewarded for it sooner or later.

[C T]

Also i think a buddhist way of looking at it is that if karma doesn't catch up with the evil doer in this life, then the next life they will pay for they're deeds and drop down in the chain of life and maybe instead of a being born a person, they'll be dog, or slug . For example I doubt Hitler came back too high of a life form in his next life. Of course everyone will have different views on this issue.

Hitler the person will never be born again. He is gone forever. What is re-born are the traits that together made up this being named Hitler. For as long as ignorance and cruelty exists somewhere out there, collectively, or somewhere inside a person, individually, some of Hitler's essence, unfortunately, lives on in this way. This is one way of seeing how karma is perpetuated.

 

In an ideal world situation, if one day a big shift happens and all beings 'awaken' to their perfect nature, that is when all traces of Hitler's less-than-noble traits vanish. Alternatively, each individual can learn to overcome their own ignorance now, and gradually wipe the dust off their own eyes. When all the dust is gone, it naturally follows that all mental defilements, which ding dongs between the extremes of good and evil, will be wiped away. Cleared of these mental afflictions, one becomes serenely unaffected by all the peripheral movements happening within or without. No longer swayed by the illusive, impermanent nature of all mental states, one returns to the still point. At this juncture, there will be no struggle. When there is no struggle, one becomes neither victim nor victor, because one no longer depend/need such labels to validate one's existence.

 

There is mention somewhere that karma is cause and effect/action and re-action. Well this is only part of what constitutes Karma - Karma is quite complex, and is much more than simple cause and effect. At the more basic level, thoughts carry the seeds of Karma. In the even subtler levels, intentions too can give rise to Karma. Imagine little single-ringed ripples on a lake... which then enlarges slowly to ever-bigger ripples and so on. Intent works in almost the same fashion - it contains energy which can be compounded to give rise to emotional force, thru to the acting out of these forces. Take the analogy of a pendulum as an example: When the pendulum is completely still, it is full of potential... the moment something lends energy to it, it moves, either to the left or to the right... if it moves left, it will accumulate enough energy in the movement to the left to force it to swing to the right, albeit at a slightly reduced margin. At the end of the swing to the right, it again gathers energy to swing to the other side, again with a slightly reduced margin, until it finally loses all inertia, and rests in the middle again as potential. In some ways, mind is also like this... it exists as potential always, until something stirs it, and mind is born. When there are no stirrings, there is no mind - only potential of mind. The tendency to stir this mind is very strong in most of us, due to the forces of habit. We seem to like to feed the mind with a lot of thoughts due to various factors... imaginations, fears, insecurities, doubts, projections, compensations etc. We indulge in such activities due to basic ignorance of our true nature, which is undefiled.

 

Spiritual practices are very good in that it helps us to reconcile the made-up aspect of our nature with that intrinsically pure nature within us, which, hopefully, will lead to the end of all dualistic and delusional notions of what we are in reality. The practice of meditation, over years of mindful awareness of when discursive thoughts occur, helps greatly to habituate retuning the mind to recognize its own pure nature. In the example of the pendulum given above, we can allude to meditation as a practice that allows us to heighten the sense of when the pendulum starts to move, and thru this awakened awareness, we can choose not to feed the energy of the movement, thereby reducing or negating its power thus hastening its return to the stillness of the center, which is rest, or complete equilibrium.

 

This discussion between some learned Buddhists can help shed some light on the notions of Karma:

http://www.thebuddhadharma.com/issues/2007/spring/forum-karma.html

Edited November 14, 2010 by CowTao

[manitou]

 

I agree with the OP-- This world is evil, and a truly moral man will have a hard time getting to the top. Someone always gets screwed. Study the history or Marketing and PR--- Learn about the shift from utilitarian marketing to emotive marketing.

 

 

I just dont' see how choosing the Someone Always Gets Screwed attitude has any benefit at all to the bottom line in any area of our lives. By choosing to label things by referring to them as 'screwed' does nothing but eliminate our options. If someone hates me, I can choose to hate back in kind, or I can choose to love. If I choose to love I am totally free as I can exercise all my options. The hateful person can only exercise 50% of his options, he is restricted by the effect of the hate on his ego and subsequent behavior.

[Birch]

I liked the post Manitou, and I found this part in particular pretty interesting:

 

"he is restricted by the effect of the hate on his ego and subsequent behavior."

 

Now what if his (or her) behaviour includes restricting me from doing a decent ethical job?

 

What if such behaviour includes cutting the grass from under my feet so I can't do the things that are right?

 

What if I am speaking out against such hate? And his/her behaviour is to discredit me, making it so difficult to bring the latter to public awareness that I might as well never have spoken?

 

Then what should one do? It's not a hypothetical question BTW. I'm all for love and dissing the ego that was formed under ridiculous conditions (mine is a work in progress ;-)).

[strawdog65]

Hello everyone,

 

The question of good and evil will always be based on your own moral basis.

 

I would ask is there evil in nature?

Are the actions of animals considered and judged based on the moral code

of mankind?

 

I humbly submit that even with our large brains and opposable thumbs, that we

are animalistic by nature. Good and Evil are only based on our moral code,

having nothing to do with nature. An action is just an action, our judgement

of that action filtered through our preconception of "learned" good and evil

is what determines our reaction.

It is easy for me to fall back and use terminology like good and evil as well

as the next person. But logically, and intellectually, I know that the existence

of evil in this world is just as contrived as the concept of a God.