Breathing Practice?

[surfingbudda]

What kind of breath practices do people do here. I really would like to improve my breath, however I do not know how to go about doing it. It seems like qigong styles, there are countless techniques around the world for improving breath, however I do not know what and how to go about it. Bruce frantzis seems to have a very detailed method, however do you think it would be necessary to have a breath workshop to truly learn any kind of breath practice. Also this guy Master Lu with his five element breathing program claims his simple program can get a person from using 1/6 of their lungs to 100% My link. Also there is embryonic breathing, pranayama, ect. To me BKF's method seems the most thorough and although I have never tried his qigong, he seems to really no what he is talking about. Has anyone ever tried BKF"s method, and how did they learn it, through his tape, or a workshop? Or has anyone had any good success in any other style of breathing?

Also I've read that one should not mix styles of qigong, because each style works the chi differently and mixing can have harmful effects on chi. Will the same concept apply to breathing practices? I am about to start practicing Dayan Wild goose qigong, so should i just look into whatever method of breathing they proscribe or would it be ok to do that and learn BKF's breath technique on the side. Any thoughts or comments would gladly appreciated, thank you

[sirius]

hey surfing buddha!

 

i`m experimenting with bkf`s taoist breathing for about two years. i tried to "learn" it from one of his books. i never went to a workshop or got any instruction from a teacher. i tried to find out everything about it all by myself - although i know that this is not the best way to learn. in the beginning i was really surprised about the strong effects of this method (combined with a regular practice of zanh zhuang chi kung). when i added bkf`s taoist meditation to my daily exercises i had so much energy in me that i almost exploded. it blew up my ego very much - so i stopped with the taoist meditation.

 

at the moment i practice the taoist breathing every morning for about twenty minutes. then i gather the energy in my dantien. after that i do about one hour of zanh zhuang chi kung (standing like a tree). this gives me enough energy to cope with all the challenges of daily life (work, family, children and so on). as far as i`m concerned i can say that the combination of this breathing method with standing chi kung is great!

 

greetings from germany

 

sirius

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

May I suggest doing a search for topics of 'breathing'? There's an awful lot of very good threads on many aspects of breathing to satisfy some of your curiosity.

[surfingbudda]

Hi serius

Which BKF book are you using to learn the breathing and the taoist meditation?

[NeiChuan]

 

 

Yang Jwing Ming's Embryonic Breathing is very good, but I mainly read that for his great detailed analysis and translated texts.

 

 

Yeah I agree. Jwing's books are immensely theoretical, but immersed with foundation info all around it.

 

Great reads

Edited November 15, 2010 by NeiChuan

[Pietro]

Hi surfingbudda,

 

I practiced BKF's breathing techniques strictly from his Opening the Energy Gates book and got great results. Eventually, I bought the audio CDs but found the timing of his instructions did not suit my breath practice development. If BKF's practices speak to you, I highly encourage purchasing his books and following his instructions, making sure to incorporate no more than 70% effort. It is easy to strain the diaphragm.

 

Yang Jwing Ming's Embryonic Breathing is very good, but I mainly read that for his great detailed analysis and translated texts.

 

Good luck.

 

I agree, the CD instructions are great (the best), but the timing is all wrong.

 

Eventually we all started working with a set of sounds, that gives a bell every n seconds. The complete set starts from 3 seconds, and we have it to about 30 seconds. And we have a different file for each 1/10th of a second. So we have 10 files between 3 seconds and 4 seconds, and so on. The files are made in such a way that if you hear them in a loop you do not feel when a file has ended and the next started. And with 3 breaths at each speed. So the 10 seconds breath file lasts (10*2)*3=1 minute.

 

So now I practice starting with whatever speed I feel confortable with and I slowly let it slow down.

using the fact that the ipod plays the files in name order, so 3.3 comes before 3.4

This permits my nervous system to slowly calm down.

 

 

I don't think the files are available anywhere, nor can I give them to you because I was given them to me as a personal favor, and the person that made them was considering selling them. But I am sure you can organise a similar system.

 

Pietro

[sirius]

hey surfing buddha,

 

some other tao bums have already answered your questions - maybe better than i could have done it. the most important thing for me is not to force the breathing. and to breathe into your back - like bruce frantzis describes it in the book "opening the energy gates". good luck!

[sirius]

the book about taoist maditation is "the water method of taoist meditation" by bruce frantzis.

 

by the way, normally i try to learn things from a teacher, like chi kung for example. the "do it yourself path" is difficult and sometimes dangerous.

[Pietro]

the "do it yourself path" is difficult and sometimes dangerous.

thumbs up.

you forgot longer ;-)

[VCraigP]

I agree, the CD instructions are great (the best), but the timing is all wrong.

 

Eventually we all started working with a set of sounds, that gives a bell every n seconds. The complete set starts from 3 seconds, and we have it to about 30 seconds. And we have a different file for each 1/10th of a second. So we have 10 files between 3 seconds and 4 seconds, and so on. The files are made in such a way that if you hear them in a loop you do not feel when a file has ended and the next started. And with 3 breaths at each speed. So the 10 seconds breath file lasts (10*2)*3=1 minute.

 

So now I practice starting with whatever speed I feel confortable with and I slowly let it slow down.

using the fact that the ipod plays the files in name order, so 3.3 comes before 3.4

This permits my nervous system to slowly calm down.

 

 

I don't think the files are available anywhere, nor can I give them to you because I was given them to me as a personal favor, and the person that made them was considering selling them. But I am sure you can organise a similar system.

 

Pietro

 

Sheesh Pietro.

 

What did Taoist trainee's do before they invented the ipod?

 

Seems a perfect system for the immensely precise academic that you are.

 

Craig

[thelerner]

 

What did Taoist trainee's do before they invented the ipod?

 

 

Craig

 

Takes out Ipod Touch. There's an app for that . I use an app call Breathing from Evil Clays Studio. Its nice because you can set the breathing time up in all 4 dimensions. In/ InHold/ Out/ EmptinessHold. It adjusts by the half second. A nice feature is that you can play any of your music and/or playlists and it will speak inhale, hold, exhale, hold, on top of the music. You can also set the session length.

 

I've been playing with it, lately using a 28 second breath pattern 11 in, 11 out w/ a few seconds of mostly Inhold. Its a pattern that feel comfortable, I'd like to start stretching it out, then start working w/ some 7-7-7 patterns and up for Tummo exercises.

 

I'll also use a Silent Ground Yogic Breathing album that has rising and lowering tones for setting it up in repeat mode. The rising and lowering sounds are more relaxing then a voice. The CD has even 'even' breaths from 8-8 going up past 44-44 in 2 second increments. It also has In Hold Out patterns like 8-10-10, 8-12-12, up to 14(in)-56(hold!)-28(out)! Breathing that deep you are practically hibernating.

[Pietro]

Sheesh Pietro.

 

What did Taoist trainee's do before they invented the ipod?

 

Seems a perfect system for the immensely precise academic that you are.

 

Craig

 

Hi Craig,

I do sometimes worry, if someone were to silently sneak on me while I was practicing with the iPod and turn it off, would I die waiting for the next breath ;-).

The question is not merely academic. Yesterday I was running a playlist and it was set to random order. I only realized it after :-). But I kept wondering why time was speeding up and then slowing down. :-D. Thinking I must be really going through a breakthrough lol

Edited November 15, 2010 by Pietro

[joeblast]

I also found the timing of BK's taoist breathing CDs to be...not optimal for me. I listened to them and noted concepts, which I would suggest before even practicing along with them. If you're using them as a starting point then the timing would probably be fine, but if you're already able to do ~30 second breaths before picking up those CDs then you'll likely find the timing all wrong

 

I'll reiterate, imho the YMAA embryonic breathing is a suitable addition to the bookcase of anyone who meditates - quite likely that you will find *that* much in there, even if you've already been meditating a long time. The ancient translations are gold.

[Guest sykkelpump]

well why dont make this easy and just do anapanasati or mantra meditation and all this happens naturally and effortless

[thelerner]

well why dont make this easy and just do anapanasati or mantra meditation and all this happens naturally and effortless

 

Too easy; a man needs his gadgets.

[surfingbudda]

Well i reread through the BKF's breathing method and have slowly began training my breath. Even just starting its pretty powerful. Maybe even a bit too powerful, after doing it on my bed for a bit, when i got back up i got dizzy and my whole vision filled with stars; even through i felt no pain during the practice, can one overdose on energy? I will just move even slower through the process to allow my body to adjust to taking in more energy than its used to. Is this just some thing that takes time to push through while your body adapts? Also BKF doesn't talk about it, but is it necessary to do grounding exercises along with it? If so, whats a good grounding method everyone here uses?

Also I have just started doing basic qigong exercises from Dr. Bingkun Hu's video "flexability through qigong" and he doesnt have any particular closing or grounding exericise, however he does do a sort of mini closing and focusing on the dantian after each exercise. Is this enough, or should qigong always have a powerful closing and grounding after everything is done?

[Pietro]

well why dont make this easy and just do anapanasati or mantra meditation and all this happens naturally and effortless

 

 

Taoist breathing, as taught by Bruce Frantzis, is different from other forms of breathing. For example in yogic breathing there is a pause between the in-breath and the out-breath. In taoist breathing there is no pause whatsoever. This then helps with the meditative practice for various technical reasons. So by setting up the breath in this way you are setting up the stage to be more successful at taoist meditation downstream. It might be different if you were to do another form of meditation (like kundalini). Which is why you need to be a bit aware when you mix together elements from different traditions, or when you learn from someone who does not know the fullness of a tradition. In both cases you might discover extraneous elements that might not play nicely with other elements you have.

Suppose you are going by sea, you want the sail, and the vessel. But although you can pretty much use any sail on any vessel, some combination work better than other. Some actions (like going at an angle, upwind) are only possible with some combinations of sails and vessel. And so on.

 

Of course if you just observe the breathing, this will deepen, but it does not always reach the fullness of having a full body breathing. That's a "maybe". Also it might take much longer. Whereas if you know what to look for, the time to reach the same stage might be much much shorter. Also if you are aware of what stages you should go through, you can monitor that everything happens in the correct way. You might have energy stuck somewhere and not be aware of it. Do you know what a blind spot is? It is a part of our vision where we do not see, but because we do not see it, we are also not aware that there is a problem. It is natural, and I think necessary, as it reflects the point in the eye bulb where the nerve is, so you cannot perceive. But we have those blind spots in our energetic system too. Dead spots, places where we don't feel. Usually problems we don't even perceive as problems. As you correctly implied with your observation, often just bringing your awareness in your body can help you find, and reawaken and revitalize those places. But it is not always so. Which is why self awareness does not always fully work. Not for everybody.

 

You mention the word effortlessly. I want to thank you for that. It is indeed important in this breathing practice that breath is done without strain. If on the one side you try to relax your nervous system, and on the other you make action that result in tensing it up, you are obviously going to reach much less, at the end of the day. But between doing things strenuously, putting a small effort, and only observing there are differences. In the water method practices are always done following the 70% rule. Which means you do not do more than 70% of what you would be able to do, both in the in-breath and in the out-breath. This means that once you cut off 30% of your breathing range in one direction, and 30% on the other, you are only moving in the middle 40%. It is really quite effortlessly. If it is not that effortlessly you would not be able to integrate this breathing with your life.

 

And finally there is the topic of health. Full body breathing is also good because it provides a massage to the internal organs of the body. In particular by breathing on the back of the heart but not on the front of the chest you are giving a massage to the heart. As heart attack are the number one cause of death in the west, you might imagine that doing something that might prevent them is a big deal. Just letting the body deepen its breathing by observing it will not generally result in a breathing pattern that affects so specifically the internal organs in general and the heart in particular.

 

I hope to have answered your question,

Pietro

[Franklin]

anatomy of breathing is one of the best books i have read on the subject of breathing

 

http://www.amazon.com/Anatomy-Breathing-Blandine-Calais-Germain/dp/0939616556/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1289910346&sr=8-1

 

 

well worth checking out

 

talks about he anatomy of breathing

and also has many practical exercises

 

 

franklin

[Guest sykkelpump]

Taoist breathing, as taught by Bruce Frantzis, is different from other forms of breathing. For example in yogic breathing there is a pause between the in-breath and the out-breath. In taoist breathing there is no pause whatsoever. This then helps with the meditative practice for various technical reasons. So by setting up the breath in this way you are setting up the stage to be more successful at taoist meditation downstream. It might be different if you were to do another form of meditation (like kundalini). Which is why you need to be a bit aware when you mix together elements from different traditions, or when you learn from someone who does not know the fullness of a tradition. In both cases you might discover extraneous elements that might not play nicely with other elements you have.

Suppose you are going by sea, you want the sail, and the vessel. But although you can pretty much use any sail on any vessel, some combination work better than other. Some actions (like going at an angle, upwind) are only possible with some combinations of sails and vessel. And so on.

 

Of course if you just observe the breathing, this will deepen, but it does not always reach the fullness of having a full body breathing. That's a "maybe". Also it might take much longer. Whereas if you know what to look for, the time to reach the same stage might be much much shorter. Also if you are aware of what stages you should go through, you can monitor that everything happens in the correct way. You might have energy stuck somewhere and not be aware of it. Do you know what a blind spot is? It is a part of our vision where we do not see, but because we do not see it, we are also not aware that there is a problem. It is natural, and I think necessary, as it reflects the point in the eye bulb where the nerve is, so you cannot perceive. But we have those blind spots in our energetic system too. Dead spots, places where we don't feel. Usually problems we don't even perceive as problems. As you correctly implied with your observation, often just bringing your awareness in your body can help you find, and reawaken and revitalize those places. But it is not always so. Which is why self awareness does not always fully work. Not for everybody.

 

You mention the word effortlessly. I want to thank you for that. It is indeed important in this breathing practice that breath is done without strain. If on the one side you try to relax your nervous system, and on the other you make action that result in tensing it up, you are obviously going to reach much less, at the end of the day. But between doing things strenuously, putting a small effort, and only observing there are differences. In the water method practices are always done following the 70% rule. Which means you do not do more than 70% of what you would be able to do, both in the in-breath and in the out-breath. This means that once you cut off 30% of your breathing range in one direction, and 30% on the other, you are only moving in the middle 40%. It is really quite effortlessly. If it is not that effortlessly you would not be able to integrate this breathing with your life.

 

And finally there is the topic of health. Full body breathing is also good because it provides a massage to the internal organs of the body. In particular by breathing on the back of the heart but not on the front of the chest you are giving a massage to the heart. As heart attack are the number one cause of death in the west, you might imagine that doing something that might prevent them is a big deal. Just letting the body deepen its breathing by observing it will not generally result in a breathing pattern that affects so specifically the internal organs in general and the heart in particular.

 

I hope to have answered your question,

Pietro

 

Good post,Pietro

I have his breathing cds,but I find meditation MUCH moore effective and easier.I also find it quicker.I also have done full body breathing.But I learned it in another way,fom gary clymans tidal wave chi kung.

Also full body breathing can happen naturally from meditation.

But people are diffrent so I would like to hear what other meditators who have tried this breathing methods thinks about it.

I myself find it useless.

[Mal]

[surfingbudda]

so BKF says turtle breathing is supposed to be a 5 minute breath. Does this mean that inhale and exhale are 2:30 minute intervals with a combined length of 5 minutes, or each inhale and exhale both 5 minutes long?

[joeblast]

total length of breath. a minute is quite sublime, five is still incomprehensibly deep from there!

[Mal]

I also found the timing of BK's taoist breathing CDs to be...not optimal for me. I listened to them and noted concepts, which I would suggest before even practicing along with them. If you're using them as a starting point then the timing would probably be fine, but if you're already able to do ~30 second breaths before picking up those CDs then you'll likely find the timing all wrong

 

I'm finding that a bit too, the 3 second breaths are a bit fast for me and feels too, well not exactly like hyperventilation but it's definitely an energizing "up" feeling. Perhaps that's the point? But how I feel when breathing that fast doesn't feels like "70%" or "effortless", slower feels more natural (well now that I've spent years extending my breathing )

 

But the real reason I resurrected this is does anyone have any ideas of how to get a working 2nd CD of Taoist Breathing for Qigongi and Meditation? My second copy just turned up from Bookdepository and it doesn't play either Fortunately I didn't have to pay postage or send the 1st one back, but I'm not sure what to do now.

 

Not that I'm going to be needing the 2nd CD anytime soon, I expect it will take a few years of practice to start to "get" this one. But I do enjoy popping "Taoist Breathing for Qigong and Meditation" in with my music CD's and just listening to Bruce talk while doing some 1/2 arsed lazy practice

 

So anyone else hear of non playing 2nd CD problems before I email back to customer service?

[joeblast]

Hm...since you already bought it, I'm sure we can get you another copy. I let Trunk borrow mine, perhaps he can shoot you a copy of disc 2...or, I will whenever I get them back (no rush man!)

 

My second cd worked just fine!

[Guest sykkelpump]

Pietro,can you explain your definition of bull body breathing? how it feels like