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Stigweard

Stigweard's Daodejing 道德經

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Introduction:

 

Firstly it should be noted that, though I have endeavored to stay as close to the original text as possible, this is not a literal translation of the Daodejing. I have chosen to translate the characters in a way that helps portray my view of the implied message that Laozi is delivering. Acknowledged also is that the lucidity of this implied message is totally dependent on my own understanding of Daoist principles and my particular view of the world. To deepen your own understanding you should always read other translations of Laozi as well as attempting your own translation.

 

Index:

 

Chapter One -- Embodying Dao

 

Chapter Two -- Nourishing Life

 

Chapter Three -- Peaceful People

 

Chapter Four -- Without Source

 

 

 

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Acknowledgments:

 

In rendering my translation I have made extensive use of these websites:

 

Chinese Etymology Home Page

YellowBridge Chinese Language and Culture

Laozi Daodejing Siegelschrift - Sealscript 老子 道德經 篆書 - Laotse Taoteking

Learn Chinese Characters

老 子「道 德 經」Tao Te Ching in Big 5

LaoTze DaoDeJing [Tao Te Ching] Chinese text

Roget's Thesaurus (1911) - The ARTFL Project

Thesaurus.com | Find Synonyms and Antonyms of Words at Thesaurus.com

Online Etymology Dictionary

 

I have also made comparative analysis with several Daodejing translations:

 

Tao Te Ching by Lao Tzu [Dao De Jing by Lao Zi]

Derek Lin's Translation of the Tao Te Ching

Terebess Asia Online - TAO

LaoTze - TaoDeJing

The Complete Works of Lao Tzu -- Ni Hua Ching

Edited by Stigweard
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Chapter One -- Embodying Dao

 

Descriptions of Dao,

Cannot be the eternal Dao.

Though names may be given,

They cannot be eternal names.

 

The unknown is Heaven and Earth's inception;

The known begets the many separate things.

 

Therefore, enduring innocence

Comes from the subtle view;

Incessant desire for things

Comes from the superficial view.

 

Both “unknown” and “known”,

The “subtle” and the “superficial”,

Are still only descriptions,

Of the subtle mystery.

Subtle beyond subtlety,

The gateway of all wonders.

 

 

Original Text:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Translator's Notes and Commentary:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

^ Back to index ^

Edited by Stigweard

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Thanks for posting this ... just one question ...

 

Descriptions of Dao,

Fail the eternalness of Dao.

Though names may be given,

They cannot be eternally named.

 

Why have you used plural 'names' and then 'they' in last line. I thought the sense was that although you can give names to the Dao - you cannot really define it. So its not 'they' cannot be eternally named ... but ... It cannot be eternally named ... or perhaps 'completely named'????? Is the way you have translated it implied in the original Chinese?

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  On 11/14/2010 at 11:25 AM, Apech said:

Thanks for posting this ... just one question ...

 

Descriptions of Dao,

Fail the eternalness of Dao.

Though names may be given,

They cannot be eternally named.

 

Why have you used plural 'names' and then 'they' in last line. I thought the sense was that although you can give names to the Dao - you cannot really define it. So its not 'they' cannot be eternally named ... but ... It cannot be eternally named ... or perhaps 'completely named'????? Is the way you have translated it implied in the original Chinese?

Yup good point. I'll explain my thinking and we'll see if I need to make adjustments.

 

I do see your point ... "They cannot be eternally named" is clumsy phraseology. I was trying to stay as close as I could to the literal "Not eternal name".

 

The meaning I am trying to convey is that names are only temporary -- the object of the name will outlive the name. For example the concept of "name" at one point in history was called "nomen", but now it's called "name". In one thousand years the concept of designating a word to something may be an entirely different word.

 

Therefore a descriptive of something can't be eternal, so something eternal like Dao eludes description.

 

So perhaps something simple like:

 

Though names may be given,

Designations are only temporary.

 

??

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  On 11/14/2010 at 10:41 AM, Stigweard said:

Introduction:

 

Chapter One -- Embodying Dao

 

Unknown is Heaven and Earth's inception;

Known begets the many separate things.

 

Therefore, enduring innocence

Comes from the subtle view;

Incessant desire for things

Comes from the superficial view.

I can see you want to avoid the comma controversy for wu. Ok. that aside.

 

If we can play with your translation. Do you see a relationship in:

Enduring names and known desires, if you reverse the translations a bit.

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  On 11/15/2010 at 4:21 AM, dawei said:

I can see you want to avoid the comma controversy for wu. Ok. that aside.

 

If we can play with your translation. Do you see a relationship in:

Enduring names and known desires, if you reverse the translations a bit.

Just so I can engage your query properly, can please you elaborate some more on what you are speaking of?

 

:D

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  On 11/15/2010 at 6:07 AM, Ramon25 said:

you know what we need? A Tao Te Ching for the western mind.

What do you mean exactly?

 

:)

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Enduring names and known desires, if you reverse the translations a bit.

 

  On 11/15/2010 at 5:24 AM, Stigweard said:

Just so I can engage your query properly, can please you elaborate some more on what you are speaking of

 

Replace "unknown" with "enduring". Both utilize "Wu".

Replace "incessant" with "known". Both utilize "You".

 

I know one must translate in line and in context but see an interesting exchange in your usage which you keep separate.

 

Chapter One -- Embodying Dao

 

Unknown is Heaven and Earth's inception;

Known begets the many separate things.

 

Therefore, enduring innocence

Comes from the subtle view;

Incessant desire for things

Comes from the superficial view.

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  On 11/15/2010 at 8:13 AM, dawei said:

Enduring names and known desires, if you reverse the translations a bit.

 

 

 

Replace "unknown" with "enduring". Both utilize "Wu".

Replace "incessant" with "known". Both utilize "You".

 

I know one must translate in line and in context but see an interesting exchange in your usage which you keep separate.

 

Chapter One -- Embodying Dao

 

Unknown is Heaven and Earth's inception;

Known begets the many separate things.

 

Therefore, enduring innocence

Comes from the subtle view;

Incessant desire for things

Comes from the superficial view.

OK I see what you have done :) What are the implications of this from your point of view?

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Stig,

 

There's a big difference in English between saying 'unknown' = adjective and 'the unknown' = noun.

 

I think the sense is this: the Tao encompasses both all that is unknown and all that is known and whether it is known or not is dependent on naming. So if you consider absolute reality and say 'these parts (although technically it has no parts) I can name and this is the known, the rest is infinite potential to be (maybe) and this is the unknown.'

 

Whether something is known or not is contingent on naming. Naming being about defining form and function or perhaps applying an appropriate term.

Edited by Apech

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  On 11/15/2010 at 8:32 AM, Stigweard said:
OK I see what you have done :) What are the implications of this from your point of view?

  On 11/15/2010 at 8:13 AM, dawei said:

Enduring names and known desires, if you reverse the translations a bit.

 

 

 

Replace "unknown" with "enduring". Both utilize "Wu".

Replace "incessant" with "known". Both utilize "You".

 

I know one must translate in line and in context but see an interesting exchange in your usage which you keep separate.

 

Chapter One -- Embodying Dao

 

Unknown is Heaven and Earth's inception;

Known begets the many separate things.

 

Therefore, enduring innocence

Comes from the subtle view;

Incessant desire for things

Comes from the superficial view.

This is your translation, not mine :)

 

I usually attach to the 'comma controversy' crowd but I like what you have done so far in avoiding the controversy... well, maybe not avoided it but your sidestepping into it's mud.

 

I can see what your conveying and I think you're dancing around "Wu" and "You" but you don't want to give them any more power than necessary. Maybe there is a happy middle way which you are close to.

 

You choose to give weight to "Wu" as 'enduring' in "Wu Yu" but simply 'Unknown' in "Wu Ming". On some level I like the simplicity but it doesn't come without it's problems, as Apech points out.

 

There is something enduring about that 'unknown'.

 

You choose to give weight to "You" as 'incessant' in "You Yu" but simply as 'Known' in "You Ming".

 

There is something incessant about that 'known'.

Edited by dawei

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  On 11/15/2010 at 9:29 PM, Stigweard said:

 

 

The unknown is Heaven and Earth's inception;

The known begets the many separate things.

 

?? :D

 

I think this may be something to do with the English language as it is forcing 'the unknown' into being a thing. As if there is something called 'the unknown' which gives rise to heaven and earth. Perhaps nameless is better after all?

 

I know what I want to say about this but its difficult to express - I am going to think and post later.

 

Cheers

 

A.

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I think I am right then I think it means Heaven and Earth in the I Ching sense of the trigrams.

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  On 11/16/2010 at 11:48 PM, Apech said:

I think I am right then I think it means Heaven and Earth in the I Ching sense of the trigrams.

OK could you expand on this ... do you mean:

 

70px-Iching-hexagram-12.svg.png

 

Love to hear your thoughts on this.

 

:D

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Hi Stig,

 

I've just been rereading Lynns translation with Wang Bi commentary - this is the book I studied all summer This one.

 

Anyway I think I am wrong now - because Wang Bi apparently had access to a version (Mawangdui A. and B.) which is translated thus:

 

  Quote
Nameless, it is the origin of the myriad things; named, it is the mother of the myriad things.

 

So instead of having 'heaven and earth' and 'myriad things' it just repeats 'myriad things'. So the distinction is lost but not the meaning. The distinction is then between 'origin' and 'mother'.

 

But I can still reconstruct what I was thinking from this.

 

I am seeing Heaven as a field of pure yang - that is a luminous infinity whose light gives order. And I am seeing Earth as being the receptive (dark) substance that gives and sustains life - pure yin. The Tao then as origin is Heavenly and as 'mother' is Earthly. This is the underlying structure of the universe - but it is not the empirically observed universe because we do not perceive pure energy or pure substance we perceive mixtures or interactions >>> the 10k things.

 

So referring to the Great Treatise (I am reading Wilhelms translation) the Earlier Heaven arrangement of the Trigrams places Ch'ien (the creative) opposite K'un (the receptive). This is saying that the primordial nature of the Tao is expressed like this - it appears both at once as an infinite field of light energy (Heaven) and the infinite substantial field of power which underpins all existence (Earth). (The other trigrams express other qualities but it would get too complicated to go into these.)

 

The Earlier Heaven arrangement expresses the primordial nature and is thus 'unknowable' in the ordinary sense - while the later heaven arrangement is more experiential - which is why fire opposed water rather than heaven and earth.

 

Now it is said that the origin and the mother arise together. That is there is no origin until there is a mother and visa versa ( a chicken and egg thing!?!).

 

So we could say that because the Tao has this unknown/unknowable aspect (its true name cannot be spoken) it can be viewed as an origin - and because it allows/facilitates knowing/naming it is also a mother.

 

I hadn't thought of the Hexagrams but if you look at those formed from Ch'ien and K'un they are 11. Peace and 12. Stagnation - in one the creative and the receptive come together in union = peace and in the other they move apart = stagnation (or perhaps barreness or non-productivity).

 

Forgive the ramble (it makes sense to me!!! ha ha).

Edited by Apech

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