Basic Ba Gua book recommendation

[Sloppy Zhang]

I just dont understand dude I have read and reread your post and all I can come up with is just becuase it looks and acts like bagua doesnt mean its bagua because of some unknown reason that you havent clarified.

 

Because there are various methods of INTERNAL training that compose internal martial arts. Methods of conditioning the body, both through standing and moving methods.

 

Look at some of these videos: here, I suggest watching the second one, because he dives right into some standing exercises. He does a great job of illustrating, right off the bat, how two postures that look the same externally can be doing two radically different things. Also, there are processes going on inside the body which are nearly impossible to see (such as how the ribs/side are being stretched in a posture).

 

There are processes of training the body which are quite subtle and hard to see unless you know they are there. Even if you copy the movement, you might not even been engaging in the processes that the movement is doing.

 

The website he provides does not give enough evidence that he knows any sort of internal processes, knows any methods of training specific internal processes, or has ever had a teacher which knows them.

 

Again, this does not mean that he is incompetent, that he can't fight, that he can't teach, or that he is inexperienced. It just does not necessarily mean he is the inheritor of some bagua lineage.

 

I cant really see much of a difference between the two. Not in priciples

 

Because it's not just principles that determine the art!

 

A principle of tai chi, for example, is yielding. But if you watch a fighter who is scared, and backs up into a corner, and gets the crap beat out of him, you'd say he just got run over. But you could also say he yielded. Does that mean the art of tai chi is running backwards into a corner and getting the crap beat out of you? NO!

 

There are SPECIFIC methods of tai chi which teach techniques, and training to build your body to carry out those techniques. If you do not know these techniques, you do not know tai chi. You just can't know the form and say, "yield, remember, yield!"

 

You are either going to get the crap beat out of you, OR, if you are trained in other styles (karate, boxing, judo, etc etc) you may revert to using those techniques with the "flavor" of tai chi (as in, it looks like you are doing tai chi just before, and just after, the fight, but not during). But those do not mean you are doing tai chi!

Edited November 21, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[Ramon25]

Because there are various methods of INTERNAL training that compose internal martial arts. Methods of conditioning the body, both through standing and moving methods.

 

Look at some of these videos: here, I suggest watching the second one, because he dives right into some standing exercises. He does a great job of illustrating, right off the bat, how two postures that look the same externally can be doing two radically different things. Also, there are processes going on inside the body which are nearly impossible to see (such as how the ribs/side are being stretched in a posture).

 

There are processes of training the body which are quite subtle and hard to see unless you know they are there. Even if you copy the movement, you might not even been engaging in the processes that the movement is doing.

 

The website he provides does not give enough evidence that he knows any sort of internal processes, knows any methods of training specific internal processes, or has ever had a teacher which knows them.

 

Again, this does not mean that he is incompetent, that he can't fight, that he can't teach, or that he is inexperienced. It just does not necessarily mean he is the inheritor of some bagua lineage.

 

 

 

Because it's not just principles that determine the art!

 

A principle of tai chi, for example, is yielding. But if you watch a fighter who is scared, and backs up into a corner, and gets the crap beat out of him, you'd say he just got run over. But you could also say he yielded. Does that mean the art of tai chi is running backwards into a corner and getting the crap beat out of you? NO!

 

There are SPECIFIC methods of tai chi which teach techniques, and training to build your body to carry out those techniques. If you do not know these techniques, you do not know tai chi. You just can't know the form and say, "yield, remember, yield!"

 

You are either going to get the crap beat out of you, OR, if you are trained in other styles (karate, boxing, judo, etc etc) you may revert to using those techniques with the "flavor" of tai chi (as in, it looks like you are doing tai chi just before, and just after, the fight, but not during). But those do not mean you are doing tai chi!

 

Like I said earlier, sitting and standing meditation comprimise the first year or so of his system. Just because it isnt on his site doesnt mean he doesnt do it Anyways Im also gonna buy soon, as per your recomendation a while back, the phoenix system in the yin bagua

 

The edit you made above on the principles comment made no sense man

anyways its bagua

Edited November 21, 2010 by Ramon25

[Sloppy Zhang]

The edit you made above on the principles comment made no sense man

 

It's not the principles you use- it's HOW you use the principles.

 

Running backwards is yielding. You are yielding to the opponent's strength. But that type of yielding usually makes you lose. Is that the yielding of tai chi? No, it is not.

 

You have to know the methods of tai chi which allow you to yield and still win! These are specific, and have been refined for generations. If you do not know them, you do not know tai chi.

 

You can do the form, you can repeat the principles. But if you don't know HOW to apply them, you aren't doing tai chi. If you do kick boxing as soon as you get into a fight, you aren't doing tai chi, even if you do solo form practice your entire life.

 

That was my point.

 

This jiulong bagua guy might know how to fight. He might be trained in fighting. He might have a lot of students who can kick the crap out of a lot of other styles' students. They might walk in a circle, and apply circular techniques when they are fighting. They can dress up in robes and carry around the I Ching. They can say, "we have no forms, you need to flow with the ever changing energy of the situation". But that doesn't mean they know, or are practicing, bagua.

 

That was my point.

 

Glad to hear you're looking into the phoenix system Apparently that was the favored system of the late Dr. Xie Peiqi, who was the lineage holder prior to the current one, He Jinbao.

Edited November 21, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[Ramon25]

It's not the principles you use- it's HOW you use the principles.

 

Running backwards is yielding. You are yielding to the opponent's strength. But that type of yielding usually makes you lose. Is that the yielding of tai chi? No, it is not.

 

You have to know the methods of tai chi which allow you to yield and still win! These are specific, and have been refined for generations. If you do not know them, you do not know tai chi.

 

You can do the form, you can repeat the principles. But if you don't know HOW to apply them, you aren't doing tai chi. If you do kick boxing as soon as you get into a fight, you aren't doing tai chi, even if you do solo form practice your entire life.

 

That was my point.

 

This jiulong bagua guy might know how to fight. He might be trained in fighting. He might have a lot of students who can kick the crap out of a lot of other styles' students. They might walk in a circle, and apply circular techniques when they are fighting. They can dress up in robes and carry around the I Ching. They can say, "we have no forms, you need to flow with the ever changing energy of the situation". But that doesn't mean they know, or are practicing, bagua.

 

That was my point.

 

Glad to hear you're looking into the phoenix system Apparently that was the favored system of the late Dr. Xie Peiqi, who was the lineage holder prior to the current one, He Jinbao.

 

 

For the record, I think its bagua and the distincion your making is a moot point, But we all have our own perception for a reason. And I respect you.

Yeah the phoenix system is the one that calls my name the most. I think its beautiful Which one do you practice? I bought the dragon one but it hurts my back

[Sloppy Zhang]

For the record, I think its bagua and the distincion your making is a moot point,

 

Mind saying why?

 

And I respect you.

 

I respect you too

 

Yeah the phoenix system is the one that calls my name the most. I think its beautiful Which one do you practice? I bought the dragon one but it hurts my back

 

I don't actually practice any of the yin style traditions, but the yin style system seems to be a very broad, yet detailed system, and it's a great resource for martial, meditative, and healing techniques.

 

As a side note, they do say that if you want to start out in Yin style, they normally suggest starting with the lion system. Then learning the unicorn system (though that's not on DVD to my knowledge). Lion represents the pure yang trigram, unicorn represents pure yin, so once you get a feel for both of those, you can combine the two and easily pick up the other animal systems. Although each animal system contains aspects of every other system, since the entire animal system encompasses each of the 64 hexagrams in the I Ching. But even that's not the full extent of the yin style that He Jinbao teaches.

 

I practice most of B.K. Frantzis' material that he's put out. Mostly just working on basic circle walking right now. I was really torn for the entire week that his bagua mastery program was launching. It was such a great chance to get access to that material, but at the same time, it was VERY expensive, something I just can't afford right now. Though I still have a bit of stuff to work on that he's already produced, I feel like I'm starting to get to the end of the published material. hopefully missing the bagua mastery program launch was not a bad decision

Edited November 22, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[Ramon25]

That sucks man, I wish you luck and it is my hope that the money will appear somehow so that you can afford it. Just pay attention for it

 

Its moot because the distinction your making is way to subtle and like i said "mystical" for me to see any real value to it. I do not belive that there is some sort of ABSOLUTE truth when it comes to the Internal arts, chi gung ECT.. to me it ALL related to somatic psycology and archetypal influences. So there is wiggle room, If it looks like, feels like and fights like bague yet doesnt contain some really esoteric notion related to traditional lineages of bagua, i really dont see how that matters in my view of what all this is. Its bagua by the very spirit of it regardless of what small internal distinctions are present. It bagua because the internal and external are one and not separate. Jiulong is a modern interpretation, the internal world of modern man is different now, so too must be the practices and somatics he expriences. ALL things must change to remain true.

[Sloppy Zhang]

That sucks man, I wish you luck and it is my hope that the money will appear somehow so that you can afford it. Just pay attention for it

 

Thanks!

 

Its moot because the distinction your making is way to subtle and like i said "mystical" for me to see any real value to it.

 

It is subtle, but it is NOT mystical. Look at the videos I linked about the Yin style bagua daoyin. Look specifically at the standing postures. The lion posture, for example, looks the same whether you do "lion opens mouth" or "lion holds ball". But the internal actions are drastically different. In one you are stretching the arms so they extend out. In the other, you are tightening the arms so they pull in. Both look the same, and the differences are in what you are doing with small amounts of musculature and structure. Now if you don't know this, and just stand there, then you aren't doing either, and are accomplishing nothing other than getting your arms tired.

 

These are subtle, but very REAL aspects of training that occur on a PHYSICAL level. It has taken years, possibly generations, to discover, develop, and refine these techniques. You might be able to discover it yourself, but it is VERY unlikely. Best way to learn this is to discover a lineage that HAS come up with these techniques, find the people teaching, and practice your ass off.

 

Or, do lots of more conventional training- weight lifting, other conditioning, find more conventional fighting methods- karate, boxing, judo, muay thai, brazilian jujutsu, etc, become a good as hell fighter, and then start walking in circles. You'll be a damn good fighter, can talk about links to symbolism all you want. Will that make your art bagua? Will it have the subtleties of internal martial arts? I would say no, personally.

 

I do not belive that there is some sort of ABSOLUTE truth when it comes to the Internal arts, chi gung ECT.. to me it ALL related to somatic psycology and archetypal influences. So there is wiggle room, If it looks like, feels like and fights like bague yet doesnt contain some really esoteric notion related to traditional lineages of bagua, i really dont see how that matters in my view of what all this is. Its bagua by the very spirit of it regardless of what small internal distinctions are present. It bagua because the internal and external are one and not separate. Jiulong is a modern interpretation, the internal world of modern man is different now, so too must be the practices and somatics he expriences. ALL things must change to remain true.

 

But see that's the thing, the high level internal arts are not internal just because they use a certain symbolism, philosophy, or principles, but they have very REAL training methods that are very specific, subtle, hard to distinguish from the untrained eye, but very different than anything else out there.

 

The only way it seems "esoteric" is because not many people know about it, and even people who know OF it do not KNOW it.

 

It's more than symbolism. It is the entire way of training mentally and physically. If I just wanted something that used symbols that I liked, and all the right keywords, but used training methods I'm already familiar with, well, learning this shit wouldn't be so hard! I'd hit the gym, chug some protein shakes, walk in a circle, learn some BJJ, judo, and muay thai, and beat probably 90% of the people in many "traditional" martial arts communities.

 

But that's ignoring the less than 1% that have such a highly refined skill, which is what I'm truly looking for.

Edited November 22, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[Ramon25]

but see we are going in cirlces here because there are alot of internal training methods in regrds similar to the "lions opnes it mouth" posture in jiulong, Specific to jiulong like the other is specific to yin bagua. I dont see the what we are discussing really

 

And you keep using the analogy of a figher in another art walking a cricle. That just doesnt apply here. These are bagua palms and palm changes were talking about, not boxing mixed into a circle.

 

All that you talking about is really good structure, body mechanics and proprioception in realtion to specific technique. Thats not mystical, I guess I misunderstood what you meant but modern science gives us alot of that already. There is no need for a lineage pursay, they dont own the patent. Then what if different sects have different internal processes. Which one is bagua?

 

Oh by the way like I said earlier the way they walk in traditional bagua is a disaster on a biomechanical level. Its a good way to fuck yourself up with time, YET its is taught as if it is beneficial. It is not and does not apply to combat. So tradition to me is shit unless validated in modern science when it comes physical movement.

 

I know you practice alot of BK's stuff and I know his opinion on IMA's and teachers/tradition. But i disagree as arrogant as it may sound

[Sloppy Zhang]

but see we are going in cirlces here because there are alot of internal training methods in regrds similar to the "lions opnes it mouth" posture in jiulong, Specific to jiulong like the other is specific to yin bagua. I dont see the what we are discussing really

 

Mind sharing? Or did he put it in his book?

 

And you keep using the analogy of a figher in another art walking a cricle. That just doesnt apply here. These are bagua palms and palm changes were talking about, not boxing mixed into a circle.

 

And my question is: where did he learn these palm changes? Did he just make them up because he saw them somewhere, and decided to make some of his own? What experience did he have to do that? What did he train prior to bagua? The bio on his site said he learned since he was a boy, well who did he learn from? Looking for evidence of his lineage turns up, well, nothing!

 

All that you talking about is really good structure, body mechanics and proprioception in realtion to specific technique. Thats not mystical, I guess I misunderstood what you meant but modern science gives us alot of that already. There is no need for a lineage pursay, they dont own the patent. Then what if different sects have different internal processes. Which one is bagua?

 

Different sects do have internal processes, but they share a common focus on the focus of the structures of the body, focusing on stretching or working with certain body parts in different ways than other arts. Kinda like how karate develops you in a certain way, boxing develops you in a certain way, the internal martial arts develop you in a certain way. They claim to focus on working the tendons, sinews, and other stuff. He Jinbao talks about developing muscle in a stretching, twisting way, rather than a contracting sort of way. These kinds of things (but I don't study anatomy so I don't know how much is real and how much is bullshit I just know that doing internal structure work taught by Frantzis and other internal methods feels VERY different than just hitting the gym).

 

Oh by the way like I said earlier the way they walk in traditional bagua is a disaster on a biomechanical level. Its a good way to fuck yourself up with time, YET its is taught as if it is beneficial. It is not and does not apply to combat. So tradition to me is shit unless validated in modern science when it comes physical movement.

 

This would be a great time to say where you got this from.

 

I know you practice alot of BK's stuff and I know his opinion on IMA's and teachers/tradition. But i disagree as arrogant as it may sound

 

I'm as anti-traditionalist as you get, I hate the way that people use tradition to lord over people. HOWEVER, I cannot deny the fact that through traditional systems, a coherent body of work, research, application, and revision has allowed methods to develop and be refined to the point that they are today. I don't look to tradition because they are the "authority", but because tradition has given the study of a certain art for GENERATIONS, as opposed to the single lifetime that someone who just develops an art from scratch has (though perhaps that one person has had exposure to lineages themselves!)

[Ramon25]

Okay I wont reply to alot of the above because I dont care about his lineage. And regardless they WORK, creating force I never could have dreamed of. I lift weights and have done muay thai which is about power is a very destructive way. So again I dont see what your argument is. Even if he did create them the originals were created by someone. Were they more magical or something? Of course it took them long know more about proper movement now.

 

Of course working on chi gung is different that hitting the gym AGAIN we are talking somatics here.

 

Muscles twsiting and stretching for power is bullshit although I knw what he means by that.

 

Walking as we are designed for it is heel first then toes. There is a whole host of muscles reponsible for stablazing the knee and lower back as we walk and they have to fire in a sequence to be healthy. The glutes and hamstrings play a big roll, and the heel first and toes after is imporatnt so that they can kick and do their job to the take the many hundreds of pounds of force created by walking off of the knee. The tradiional form of bagua is toes first heels after. Which takes the glutes out of stabalzing the force of contact with the ground and places the shear force more on quads than on right muscles. This creates normal malking patterns which will not fire properly, slowly wair out the knee joint itself, put addttioanl force on the lower back and jsut genarlly be bad for posture. hence why many people complain about knee and pain in bagua. Its bad for you. simple.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Okay I wont reply to alot of the above because I dont care about his lineage. And regardless they WORK, creating force I never could have dreamed of.

 

Yes, but how do they work?

 

If they work because some dude has more muscles than you and beats the shit out of you, well.... I don't really consider that to be in the same classification of internal martial arts!

[Ramon25]

Yes, but how do they work?

 

If they work because some dude has more muscles than you and beats the shit out of you, well.... I don't really consider that to be in the same classification of internal martial arts!

 

YES! that what I just said! They work, I have never been able to apply force in such a way. Against frinds who were alot stronger then me, I can psuh them around applying some of the principals I have learned so far.

[Franklin]

Walking as we are designed for it is heel first then toes. There is a whole host of muscles reponsible for stablazing the knee and lower back as we walk and they have to fire in a sequence to be healthy. The glutes and hamstrings play a big roll, and the heel first and toes after is imporatnt so that they can kick and do their job to the take the many hundreds of pounds of force created by walking off of the knee. The tradiional form of bagua is toes first heels after. Which takes the glutes out of stabalzing the force of contact with the ground and places the shear force more on quads than on right muscles. This creates normal malking patterns which will not fire properly, slowly wair out the knee joint itself, put addttioanl force on the lower back and jsut genarlly be bad for posture. hence why many people complain about knee and pain in bagua. Its bad for you. simple.

 

walking in "traditonal" bagua

 

i am guessing you mean Tang Ni Bu- mud wading step

this is nei gong training

 

if you walk incorrectly it is bad for the knee

not many people can walk correctly

 

and it is not toe then heel

that will definitely give you knee pain

because you create a jarring force

and will not be able to keep the head smooth while walking

but instead have a jerky movement

 

learning how to walk correctly is very important for bagua

(at least how i learned)

 

but there are many styles and many different ways of walking that people do

 

 

Franklin

[Ramon25]

that guy is walking toes firstf. they hit the ground before the heel. walking in any other way besides heel first is gonna put undue stress in the lower body.

[Sloppy Zhang]

that guy is walking toes firstf. they hit the ground before the heel. walking in any other way besides heel first is gonna put undue stress in the lower body.

 

Again, you cannot appraise an internal martial art by what it looks like externally. There are more forces at work. It's not just "stepping with toes first", or something like that. A lot more forces at work.

 

Frantzis on bagua stepping

 

He also teaches walking method in "The Great Stillness".

[Franklin]

that guy is walking toes firstf. they hit the ground before the heel. walking in any other way besides heel first is gonna put undue stress in the lower body.

 

edit- the video you posted-

the person is placing the foot on the ground and then shifting the weight on to it

i am curious how this will negatively impact the health of the legs?

 

walking like this i can not see how this would do that

in taiji you put the heel down and then the whole foot, and then shift the weight on to it..

i don't see how that is different- the whole foot on the ground- then shift the weight...

end-edit

 

 

 

you should re read my post

 

i will not comment on what is going on in the video

(as in the correctness or incorrectness of the practice)

it is different from what i learned and practice

 

 

i will add

that from my personal experience

learning to walk correctly is very difficult

even with a good teacher correcting you

 

it is one of those things you either get or you don't

once you get it you know

before then you are just repeating what you have heard....

and different walking develops different things

and sometimes different ways of walking develop similar things but from a different method

 

 

i am not trying to change you mind or even argue with you

 

you are more then entitled to have your opinions on the matter

many styles of bagua walk heel toe

 

 

Franklin

Edited November 23, 2010 by Franklin

[Ramon25]

Again, you cannot appraise an internal martial art by what it looks like externally. There are more forces at work. It's not just "stepping with toes first", or something like that. A lot more forces at work.

 

Frantzis on bagua stepping

 

He also teaches walking method in "The Great Stillness".

 

UMM when it comes to walking, yes you can. I dont care what they want to say, anatomy is anatomy, movement is movement. If he is walking that way more forces are being placed on the knees than what is healthy according to modern standards. This is what I mean dude by mumbo jumbo, its just NOT the case, atleast not in this situation.He may do it his whole life and feel nothing, there are are many factors at play as to why he woud or wouldnt feel pain which does not mean that he is not causing damage. Progressive Damage can be done with no pain felt ever.

 

 

The reason that it is unhealthy is because walking is one of mans most basic, foundational and essential functions. AND WE DONT WALK THAT WAY and did not evolve to do so. The joints, ligaments and structures of the legs and pelvis are not designed to handle forces in that way. not to mention that if u do that enough your burning those habits into your nervous system which is going to carry over to normal walkiing in some way. So that maybe the right muscles dont fire at the right time durning normal activity.

 

 

I value ancient wisdom as much as anyone here but some things are obsolete because of modern knowledge.

 

Oh on a side note im glad we can al talk without getting upset.

Edited November 23, 2010 by Ramon25

[Sloppy Zhang]

UMM when it comes to walking, yes you can. I dont care what they want to say, anatomy is anatomy, movement is movement. If he is walking that way more forces are being placed on the knees than what is healthy according to modern standards. This is what I mean dude by mumbo jumbo, its just NOT the case, atleast not in this situation.He may do it his whole life and feel nothing, there are are many factors at play as to why he woud or wouldnt feel pain which does not mean that he is not causing damage. Progressive Damage can be done with no pain felt ever.

 

 

The reason that it is unhealthy is because walking is one of mans most basic, foundational and essential functions. AND WE DONT WALK THAT WAY and did not evolve to do so. The joints, ligaments and structures of the legs and pelvis are not designed to handle forces in that way. not to mention that if u do that enough your burning those habits into your nervous system which is going to carry over to normal walkiing in some way. So that maybe the right muscles dont fire at the right time durning normal activity.

 

 

I value ancient wisdom as much as anyone here but some things are obsolete because of modern knowledge.

 

I dunno what else to say man. Looks can be deceiving. Ever learned how to stage fight? As in, make it look real without actually hitting anybody? (well sometimes you do hit them, but everyone is still in control)

 

I dunno. Learn the method. A lot of people have been doing bagua for a long time and, well, the only people who I've ever heard of with problems are people who were either doing it wrong, or learning it from someone else who was doing it wrong.

 

This is why you hear all these warnings about internal arts, that you have to do them right or you'll just wind up hurting yourself. Because if you just try to copy the movements, without learning the finer points of the stepping, you are probably going to run into exactly the problems you are describing.

 

It's not mumbo jumbo. It's finesse.

 

Oh on a side note im glad we can al talk without getting upset.

 

Me too

[The Observer]

Hey,

 

I found a local Baguazhang teacher in my area, Master Wei Lun Huang (Master Huang's website). Anyone heard of him? Is he the real deal?

Edited November 23, 2010 by The Observer

[Dainin]

Hey,

 

I found a local Baguazhang teacher in my area, Master Wei Lun Huang (Master Huang's website). Anyone heard of him? Is he the real deal?

 

 

I went to one of his qigong workshops in a park down near FIU a few years ago, and was very impressed by his knowledge. It was on Incense Qigong, which was similar to Fragrance Qigong, but with greater "depth." I didn't get to check out his other arts, but I know he teaches tai chi and liu he bafa as well as bagua. If I lived closer to where he teaches I would definitely check out his classes. His student Sifu Andrew Chung is a really good teacher too. He teaches in south Broward.