Basic Ba Gua book recommendation

[mYTHmAKER]

Any recommendations for a book on Baqua.

I am interested is photos / diagrams that clearly show the basic palm positions.

Palm changes

A beginners book

Bagua for Dummies LOL

 

Thanks

[Birch]

I have 2 (foolish - oh foolish mistake on Amazon.com) Can send you 1. I'm keeping the other one "just in case"

 

PM me with an address for sending.

[Sloppy Zhang]

I too have been in the market for a bagua book recently!

 

I've come across this one on Wang Shujin's bagua: http://www.amazon.com/Bagua-Linked-Palms-Shujin-Wang/dp/1583942645/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1289781251&sr=8-1

 

Kent Howard, one of the translators, has a really good youtube page where he performs demonstrations of some techniques: http://www.youtube.com/user/baguaman8

 

If you aren't afraid to get spend a little more, there are some Yin Style Baguazhang DVD sets out that teach various aspects of the Yin style system, which feature both Xie Peiqi and He Jinbao performing them. Only four forms out of the total eight have been released on DVD, but I've talked to some of the people who have purchased them, and they seem to be fairly extensive and comprehensive not only in the instruction of the form, but in standing exercises, practice drills for each of the techniques, and applications. You can find them here: http://traditionalstudies.org/Store/YSB_8_Animals.html He Jinbao says to start study with the Lion form.

 

http://www.maguibagua.net/ Has basic instruction for stuff. They have e-books which are only a few dollars, and which they say is basically the text of the website, but with better pictures, diagrams, and a few more explanations on a couple of techniques. This is Ma Gui's style of Yin style bagua.

Edited November 15, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[Ramon25]

40 reviews and 5 stars- To me this has been the best

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0865682550/ref=s9_simh_gw_p14_d0_i1?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-3&pf_rd_r=13DNQGHBSB4QQ3YCGNXW&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470938811&pf_rd_i=507846

[mYTHmAKER]

I too have been in the market for a bagua book recently!

 

I've come across this one on Wang Shujin's bagua: http://www.amazon.co...89781251&sr=8-1

 

Kent Howard, one of the translators, has a really good youtube page where he performs demonstrations of some techniques: http://www.youtube.com/user/baguaman8

 

If you aren't afraid to get spend a little more, there are some Yin Style Baguazhang DVD sets out that teach various aspects of the Yin style system, which feature both Xie Peiqi and He Jinbao performing them. Only four forms out of the total eight have been released on DVD, but I've talked to some of the people who have purchased them, and they seem to be fairly extensive and comprehensive not only in the instruction of the form, but in standing exercises, practice drills for each of the techniques, and applications. You can find them here: http://traditionalst..._8_Animals.html He Jinbao says to start study with the Lion form.

 

http://www.maguibagua.net/ Has basic instruction for stuff. They have e-books which are only a few dollars, and which they say is basically the text of the website, but with better pictures, diagrams, and a few more explanations on a couple of techniques. This is Ma Gui's style of Yin style bagua.

 

Thanks sloppy oops should be a capital S lol

[mYTHmAKER]

40 reviews and 5 stars- To me this has been the best

http://www.amazon.co...&pf_rd_i=507846

 

Thank you Ramon25

[mYTHmAKER]

Anyone out there who studies Ba qua with a recommendation?

[zerostao]

Anyone out there who studies Ba qua with a recommendation?

i practice pa kua chang, baguazhang . in humble opinion a introductory book on this subject would be

BAGUAZHANG-THEORY AND APPLICATIONS by Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming and & Liang Shou-Yu

[devoid]

Anyone out there who studies Ba qua with a recommendation?

 

Hi mYTHmAKER,

 

I do study it. This said, I am not sure this is the recommendation you're looking for though....

 

There are so very many styles of Baguazhang - pls. recall that Dong Haichuan who is credited as the creator taught some techniques to very different top martial artists at the time who in turn incorporated it into their own style / flavor of doing things. Thus, if you take classes, almost any book on Bagua is not likely to help (unless if you're training with a teacher of a style which is described specifically in one of the books out there). If you don't take classes or similar I am of the opinion that no book can teach you this.

 

Back to your initial question on palm positions: Take the much talked about 8 mother palms as an example: If you study some of the different circular lineages and add them together you will find approximately 15 or so (keeping in mind that each circular style predominantly sticks to 8 in order to remain true to the idea of the 8 trigrams) - other styles and linages do things differently and may talk about 64 although they are typically rather sub-forms than cardinally different palms.

 

Here's my experience for you: When I wanted to start Baguazhang I found a good teacher after trying in vain to read some books (you may be interested to hear that I've been through most books mentioned in this thread plus some more). He told me to start with Xingyiquan before he would teach me Baguazhang. His thinking was that if I couldn't first do a much simpler linear form to some adequate degree it would be pointless. At the time, I recall thinking that was weird, but decided to heed his advice. About a year into Xingyquan I was allowed to start cross-training with Baguazhang and since then I can see his point: There is simply too much going on at the same time in order to have a chance to get things right when learning from scratch unless if you just want to use it to bounce around...

[mYTHmAKER]

Hi mYTHmAKER,

 

I do study it. This said, I am not sure this is the recommendation you're looking for though....

 

There are so very many styles of Baguazhang - pls. recall that Dong Haichuan who is credited as the creator taught some techniques to very different top martial artists at the time who in turn incorporated it into their own style / flavor of doing things. Thus, if you take classes, almost any book on Bagua is not likely to help (unless if you're training with a teacher of a style which is described specifically in one of the books out there). If you don't take classes or similar I am of the opinion that no book can teach you this.

 

Back to your initial question on palm positions: Take the much talked about 8 mother palms as an example: If you study some of the different circular lineages and add them together you will find approximately 15 or so (keeping in mind that each circular style predominantly sticks to 8 in order to remain true to the idea of the 8 trigrams) - other styles and linages do things differently and may talk about 64 although they are typically rather sub-forms than cardinally different palms.

 

Here's my experience for you: When I wanted to start Baguazhang I found a good teacher after trying in vain to read some books (you may be interested to hear that I've been through most books mentioned in this thread plus some more). He told me to start with Xingyiquan before he would teach me Baguazhang. His thinking was that if I couldn't first do a much simpler linear form to some adequate degree it would be pointless. At the time, I recall thinking that was weird, but decided to heed his advice. About a year into Xingyquan I was allowed to start cross-training with Baguazhang and since then I can see his point: There is simply too much going on at the same time in order to have a chance to get things right when learning from scratch unless if you just want to use it to bounce around...

 

Thanks. This is very helpful.

[Ramon25]

Thank you Ramon25

No problem. Jiulong baguazhang is very interesting. It is very practical in comparisons to more traditional systems. Ironically there is no preset forms! You learn the principles, the palm changes and stepping. with time, one you you know the palms you link them sponaneaously in the moment to create ever chaning forms that are adaptable, you get in a FLOW pursay. True to the daoist philosophy.

here is what it looks like

[Gerard]

Do a Google search for Bagua and you'll find what is best suited to you.

Edited November 23, 2010 by Gerard

[Sloppy Zhang]

No problem. Jiulong baguazhang is very interesting. It is very practical in comparisons to more traditional systems. Ironically there is no preset forms! You learn the principles, the palm changes and stepping. with time, one you you know the palms you link them sponaneaously in the moment to create ever chaning forms that are adaptable, you get in a FLOW pursay. True to the daoist philosophy.

here is what it looks like

 

I've been looking through the website of Jiulong bagua and... it seems kinda fishy...

 

http://www.ninedragonbaguazhang.com/navigate.htm

 

http://www.ninedragonbaguazhang.com/whatis.htm

 

http://www.ninedragonbaguazhang.com/donghai.htm (the historical note at bottom)

[Franklin]

I think the best place to start if you wanted to find out more about pakua/bagua

would be the Pa Kua Chang Journal

 

lots of great information from many different styles of Pa Kua / Ba Gua

history, biographies, philosophy, and good information

some how to stuff as well

 

http://pakuachangjournal.com/order.php

 

 

then once you have some perspective on the variety in the art

you can look for material that you are interested in...

 

not all bagua /pakua is the same

 

 

Franklin

[Gerard]

Do a Google search for Bagua and you'll find what is best suited to you.

Edited November 23, 2010 by Gerard

[Ramon25]

Too easy. Lazy man's walk. Bagua has too many details to be learnt from a book. Also good Bagua involves HEAVY LEG WORK in order to get all the benefits. In TCM theory leg strengthening promotes a better and higher Qi flow.

 

Start working your horse stance like this:

 

 

 

To walk like this:

 

 

And in the circle, like this:

 

 

 

Lazy mans walk Combat situations are very unpredictable and sponateous, hence no set form,I dont have much expirience in formal training on the chinese arts but I have alot of expirence in COMBAT focused disciplines, excessive preset forms get in the way of being in a fight. and Also the traditional way of walking the circle from a BIOMECHANICAL perspective, you know SCIENCE, destroys your knees and puts pressure on the lower back aswell. not to mentions that walking that way in a combat situation is extremly stupid and undavisable. Plus its a REALLY detailed book. I agree though a teacher would be best. But its comes back to the Good, better, best hierchy. best would be a teacher, but the book is is good

 

Sloppy, why do you say fishy?

[johndoe2012]

You guys / gals studying from DVDs and books: do you spar with a real-life partner or how you make sure that you can use the techniques in real life?

Edited November 21, 2010 by wtm

[Sloppy Zhang]

Sloppy, why do you say fishy?

 

Seems kind of gimmicky. He uses all the right keywords, cites the history that everybody knows, without really talking about the development of his own personal style. I have not been able to find any info on the teachers he cites. In fact, each time I search for their names, I get dozens and dozens of forums of people asking the same questions. A few people who were his students have said that he didn't really teach them much. He's a strong guy and a good fighter to begin with, so he does stuff that LOOKS like bagua, but the reason he beats people is because he's an athletic, experienced guy already, not that he uses bagua to win.

 

You guys / gals studying from DVDs and books: do you spar with a real-life partner or how you make sure that you can use the techniques in real life?

 

I get together on a pretty regular basis (every other week, or whenever we can meet together) with guys who I've known for a while who have trained in a bunch of different systems. Me and another guy go back to my karate days, when we sparred full contact. Another guy used to train brazilian jujutsu and boxing, and another guy wrestled in high school and was on a college wrestling team. We've got a pretty eclectic background, but we also go and look out at other techniques- one of the guys had studied some aikido, I've been looking into techniques from taiji for a little while, and we basically just test them alongside our regular free fighting practice.

 

If one guy wants to test his standing/rooting skills, we got a guy who's willing to push at varying degrees of resistance. Lowest level is just like, "hey, I'm pushing you", the highest level is, "I'm trying to throw you on your ass".

 

For me, it's very helpful, because when you are pressure testing your techniques, the right technique comes out naturally. You don't need a teacher to tell you, "you're doing it wrong", because your body learns very quickly that if you do it wrong, you're either going to get 1) punched in the face, or 2) thrown on your ass.

 

But that also means you have to keep the integrity of what it is you are doing. It's easy to revert back to something you already know, like karate or boxing, when trying something from aikido or tai chi. So you really gotta stick with what it is you are trying to experiment with at the time. But it also means you can find the alignments of YOUR body, and find things that work for you.

 

Testing out your stuff against a resisting opponent is an absolute must for ANY practitioner, even if you are learning from a book/dvd.

Edited November 21, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[Ramon25]

It walks in a circle, uses the same palm shapes and PRINCIPLES as traditional forms of bagua. I can assure you what I have learned WORKS in the REAL WORLD. If it looks like a duck, acts like a duck and quacks like one, its probably a duck. The reason it may not have looked like "bagua" is because jiulong is a principal based art and techniques are simply applications of said priciples. So really it creates an infinite amount of applications, yet there are none really set in stone pursay. These books are some of the most detailed i have ever read for ANY martial art. He also explains the art itself though physics and physiology, very little "mystical" talk is used. As far as I am concerned, if people dont consider it bagua, they are stuck in the arachaic idea of tradition in place innovation. But to each his own. He even has knife and gun disarms, which again make a style that speaks to modern man. Oh also one of the reasons they probably didnt learn much is because the first 6-12 months at his gompa is spent on sitting and standing meditation and ONLY that. Then basic steeping and exploration of each palm shape is about another year before the real meat is added. Its not a mcdojo.

Edited November 21, 2010 by Ramon25

[Sloppy Zhang]

If it looks like a duck, acts like a duck and quacks like one, its probably a duck.

 

The problem is that, when it comes to internal martial arts, looks CANNOT be deciding factor for what it is.

[Ramon25]

if LOOKS like a duck, ACTS like a duck and QUACKS like a duck is what I said. Your reading and seeing what you want here sloppy

[Sloppy Zhang]

if LOOKS like a duck, ACTS like a duck and QUACKS like a duck is what I said. Your reading and seeing what you want here sloppy

 

EXTERNAL qualities are not enough to appraise the INTERNAL qualities of INTERNAL martial arts.

 

You can't judge a teacher's knowledge or ability, or the art itself, based on how it LOOKS, ACTS, or even the SOUNDS it's making.

 

Just because a teacher knows how to dress, knows how to act, and knows what to say, does not mean that their art is a true internal art!

 

Just because you walk in a circle, beat up some students in front of a camera, and spout a bunch of internal principles, does NOT mean you are doing bagua!

Edited November 21, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[Ramon25]

I guess not, then nothing really does except for some Mystical mumbo jumbo. You dont even know what internal priciples the art teaches. yet you say SOME, as if you know. WhY? because you are already biased in this situation. Which is fine. My perception of what constitutes legitimate practices is very different is suppose. I like to use the lens of science and the a westen perspective to adapt eastern practices to my life. The traditional psuedo explanations are not very important to me.

[Sloppy Zhang]

I guess not, then nothing really does except for some Mystical mumbo jumbo. You dont even know what internal priciples the art teaches. yet you say SOME, as if you know. WhY? because you are already biased in this situation. Which is fine. My perception of what constitutes legitimate practices is very different is suppose. I like to use the lens of science and the a westen perspective to adapt eastern practices to my life. The traditional psuedo explanations are not very important to me.

 

Ramon, you can believe what you want. But just because you believe something is a certain thing, does not make it so.

 

As I have said, the guy looks like he's trained and experienced. Is he experienced in the martial art of bagua? Did the people he says teach him actually teach him? Did they even exist? Were they where he said they were when he said they were? The details surrounding his story seem to be suspect. What he teaches seems to be suspect.

 

A boxer can step into a tournament and beat the crap out of a lot of people. He can even beat the crap out of a lot of traditional and internal arts practitioners. But if he says he teaches bagua, and walks in a circle, is he really practicing bagua? Even if he says, "I channel the energy of the trigrams into spontaneous, circular movement", is that really bagua?

 

 

This guy is suspicious to me because I can't find any real content on HIS style, just a bunch of generic keywords and phrases that can be found anywhere. When I was a kid I got suckered by a lot of teachers that looked, acted, and quacked like a duck, but didn't have the goods. So I'm fairly critical and intensive when looking at new people. And this guy.... is not promising in my humble opinion. That's not to say he's not a healthy, effective fighter. I just don't know that he teaches bagua.

 

Unless you have some evidence to the contrary, that isn't just copied and pasted from wikipedia or generic enough to fit EVERY style of bagua.

Edited November 21, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[Ramon25]

Ramon, you can believe what you want. But just because you believe something is a certain thing, does not make it so.

 

As I have said, the guy looks like he's trained and experienced. Is he experienced in the martial art of bagua? Did the people he says teach him actually teach him? Did they even exist? Were they where he said they were when he said they were? The details surrounding his story seem to be suspect. What he teaches seems to be suspect.

 

A boxer can step into a tournament and beat the crap out of a lot of people. He can even beat the crap out of a lot of traditional and internal arts practitioners. But if he says he teaches bagua, and walks in a circle, is he really practicing bagua? Even if he says, "I channel the energy of the trigrams into spontaneous, circular movement", is that really bagua?

 

 

This guy is suspicious to me because I can't find any real content on HIS style, just a bunch of generic keywords and phrases that can be found anywhere. When I was a kid I got suckered by a lot of teachers that looked, acted, and quacked like a duck, but didn't have the goods. So I'm fairly critical and intensive when looking at new people. And this guy.... is not promising in my humble opinion. That's not to say he's not a healthy, effective fighter. I just don't know that he teaches bagua.

 

Unless you have some evidence to the contrary, that isn't just copied and pasted from wikipedia or generic enough to fit EVERY style of bagua.

 

I just dont understand dude I have read and reread your post and all I can come up with is just becuase it looks and acts like bagua doesnt mean its bagua because of some unknown reason that you havent clarified. If you want to know the style pick up a book.

 

 

 

I laso have these books

http://www.amazon.com/Fundamentals-Pa-Kua-Chan-Vol/dp/0865681724/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1290374315&sr=8-5

 

 

http://www.amazon.com/Fundamentals-Pa-Kua-Chang-Shui-Tien/dp/0865681732/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1290374315&sr=8-8

 

I cant really see much of a difference between the two. Not in priciples

Edited November 21, 2010 by Ramon25