Interesting Ken Wilber youtube clip

[Tactile]

 

I had heard his name before, but hadn't gotten into his stuff until today.. seems really interesting so I wanted to give a heads up here.

[goldisheavy]

 

I had heard his name before, but hadn't gotten into his stuff until today.. seems really interesting so I wanted to give a heads up here.

 

Nice. I agree with most of what Ken says in that sound clip.

 

Here's a bit of evidence to support Ken's assertion:

 

He [Linji] is particularly famous for encouraging his students to free themselves from the influence of masters and doctrinal concepts, in order to be able to better discover their own Buddha-nature.

 

Famed examples of Linji's iconoclasm include the following:

 

"Followers of the Way [of Chán], if you want to get the kind of understanding that accords with the Dharma, never be misled by others. Whether you're facing inward or facing outward, whatever you meet up with, just kill it! If you meet a buddha, kill the buddha. If you meet a patriarch, kill the patriarch. If you meet an arhat, kill the arhat. If you meet your parents, kill your parents. If you meet your kinfolk, kill your kinfolk. Then for the first time you will gain emancipation, will not be entangled with things, will pass freely anywhere you wish to go.[2]

 

Those who have fulfilled the ten stages of bodhisattva practice are no better than hired field hands; those who have attained the enlightenment of the fifty-first and fifty-second stages are prisoners shackled and bound; arhats and pratyekabuddhas are so much filth in the latrine; bodhi and nirvana are hitching posts for donkeys.[3]"

 

Strong personality indeed.

Edited November 15, 2010 by goldisheavy

[Birch]

I liked his talk. I don't tend to like KW's stuff. I read one of his books and it was sort of too much.

 

The argument about the continuum is interesting, sounds like a fusing of mind with pure awareness, or the realizing of where one's small self is inside of pure awareness. One of those "shiva/shakti" moments.

 

I actually have a preference for the terminology in this vid rather than the buddhist stuff but this is likely just familiarity. Does taoism have "levels" or continuums? I think the yin-yang is quite different but I can't explain how (yet).

 

A "fun" question could be "why do the psychotherapists stop at X level?" What's stopping them?

[Vajrahridaya]

I don't agree with the idea that being in touch with an expanded state of consciousness is the cause of liberation like he does as I think he stops at the I AM experience and doesn't go much further than the formless states of absorption. I also don't agree with his assumption that Adi-Da or Rajaneesh were actually liberated beings. I think they just had really big egos developed through spiritual practice and so they had lots of energy and pizazz or charisma which attracts students.

 

Anyway... I still like a lot of the stuff he says in general.

[Aetherous]

What is liberation exactly, Vajra?

 

It would make sense if it were having very expanded consciousness which identified itself with all things...I think it's called "the one taste". Because then you are liberated from the body and individual mind, unless there are any lingering tendencies.

[C T]

- double post -

Edited November 17, 2010 by CowTao

[C T]

What is liberation exactly?

A slippery bar of soap perhaps? Clasp it too tight, and sure enough, its slippery nature will come into play. Just because it has a slippery nature does not mean it cannot be gently nurtured into remaining present and useful.

 

It is also a state to be expressed through practice, from which old, stale patterns are gradually ousted thru the cultivation of perfected virtues and wisdoms, with the aim of leading to habituation. Liberation, i see it, is not, as many seem to erroneously think, some goal or purpose of life. It is also not a higher state of being, for to be liberated, in the deepest sense, means even the being-ness of being disappears - so what remains after that liberation? Sure the person is still very much here, but the identification, the constitution of personhood would have been so transformed and expanded that only the continuum of the experience of liberation remain, without a 'sense' that comes forth to cherish or claim any idea that liberation is being felt or attained. The more one is comfortable in expressing this liberation, the more stable its revelation. Ultimately, there remains only one continuous, seamless expression. Along the way, there will be a strong intuitive feeling of I AMness, but eventually, this too is released into the ever-flowing expression, not of some state, but simply the act of expressing it becomes the liberation... then there is no more distinction...no state to be liberated from, nor any to be liberated into, because the self simply is no more, forgotten completely.

 

Some thoughts...

Edited November 17, 2010 by CowTao

[Vajrahridaya]

What is liberation exactly, Vajra?

 

It would make sense if it were having very expanded consciousness which identified itself with all things...I think it's called "the one taste". Because then you are liberated from the body and individual mind, unless there are any lingering tendencies.

 

Something what CowTao said is quite good.

 

To stop at identifying with everything can become a self aggrandizement. This I think is an issue with theistic forms of yoga. They identify with liberation and have all this power, bliss and freedom in expression which can happen simply through meditation, but they don't really have insight into the empty nature of everything, even their liberation, so basically, they just have a really, really big ego now.

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

basically, they just have a really, really big ego now.

[Aetherous]

CowTao,

 

Your post is quite deep and I'll have to let it sink in...

 

Vajra,

 

To stop at identifying with everything can become a self aggrandizement. This I think is an issue with theistic forms of yoga. They identify with liberation and have all this power, bliss and freedom in expression which can happen simply through meditation, but they don't really have insight into the empty nature of everything, even their liberation, so basically, they just have a really, really big ego now.

 

I just don't see the difference between truly "identifying" with everything, and having insight into the empty nature of everything. Aren't they the same experience?

 

If a person is identifying with everything, how can they think "I am liberated"? What became liberated? That would still be a separate viewpoint, just the same as if they were confined to a body.

 

Calling it "identifying" with everything might make things confusing. It's not like projecting their ego onto phenomenon. It's just seeing things as they are...liberated from notions of a separate self.

 

Anyway, too much thinking for me, back to trying to finish this damn 10 page paper (for a class)...

[Vajrahridaya]

CowTao,

 

Your post is quite deep and I'll have to let it sink in...

 

Vajra,

 

 

 

I just don't see the difference between truly "identifying" with everything, and having insight into the empty nature of everything. Aren't they the same experience?

 

No because your not actually identifying with everything, though you are seeing how your individual self is a manifestation of endless inter-weaving web of causation with everything else. There still is no "oneness" unless you were to use this as a metaphor for expanding awareness beyond the little self, but to identify with everything as a large Self is a mistake as well and only leads to high refined material realms dancing with the gods. Nice, definitely very brilliant, but not Buddhahood.

 

 

Calling it "identifying" with everything might make things confusing. It's not like projecting their ego onto phenomenon. It's just seeing things as they are...liberated from notions of a separate self.

 

Ok, well that's different. It seems to me that Ken is identifying with everything as being, "The Self" on the grand scale of his own individual self.

Anyway, too much thinking for me, back to trying to finish this damn 10 page paper (for a class)...

 

I'm really looking forward to going to school in Canada.

Edited November 18, 2010 by Vajrahridaya