Sacred text that has not been altered by man?

[mewtwo]

So I am looking for a sacred text that has not been altered by man in the scence that man has removed some part of it or added some part so translation does not count. Anyone know of others besides the koran and by my definition the tao te ching?

 

Now suposibly the koran has not been changed since it was first written down but some scholars debate on this.

 

Cause like with the bible i know that sections of it were edited by man and such.

[Sloppy Zhang]

You say that tao te ching has not been altered according to your definition. What is your definition?

[Stigweard]

So I am looking for a sacred text that has not been altered by man in the scence that man has removed some part of it or added some part so translation does not count. Anyone know of others besides the koran and by my definition the tao te ching?

 

Now suposibly the koran has not been changed since it was first written down but some scholars debate on this.

 

Cause like with the bible i know that sections of it were edited by man and such.

Dunno ... Know any good books written by a woman

[ralis]

Sorry to disappoint. All religious texts were created by humans!

[Astral_Anima]

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Edited November 16, 2010 by Astral_Anima

[Astral_Anima]

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[leo17]

So I am looking for a sacred text that has not been altered by man in the scence that man has removed some part of it or added some part so translation does not count. Anyone know of others besides the koran and by my definition the tao te ching?

 

Now suposibly the koran has not been changed since it was first written down but some scholars debate on this.

 

Cause like with the bible i know that sections of it were edited by man and such.

We usually write it Qur'an (Q has a different sound from K in Arabic, and the apostrophe represents a glottal stop). To add to what you wrote, it hasn't been changed--only the translations. The original Arabic text is kept in every printed version whether English is added or not and the original written texts can be found in The Middle East.

[goldisheavy]

So I am looking for a sacred text that has not been altered by man in the scence that man has removed some part of it or added some part so translation does not count. Anyone know of others besides the koran and by my definition the tao te ching?

 

Now suposibly the koran has not been changed since it was first written down but some scholars debate on this.

 

Cause like with the bible i know that sections of it were edited by man and such.

 

How about any sacred texts that did not rely on human agency to arrive in our world?

 

As for your weak sauce definition, Pali Canon qualifies.

 

Hell, forget Pali Canon. All the teachings I've ever given on this forum qualify as they came directly from the spirit and are unchanged, even this very post.

Edited November 16, 2010 by goldisheavy

[james]

Terma's

[Jetsun]

You can get original copies of "Beelzebub's Tales To His Grandson" and "Meetings With Remarkable Men" by G I Gurdjieff, although the original was written in Russian Gurdjieff helped translate it to English. Perhaps not regarded as a Sacred text by as many people as the classics this book was written with astrological laws including the law of octaves and the rule of three and is written in such a way using a certain method so that it actually can change your thinking, perhaps it is the only book I have ever read that can do that. It's not as poetic as some of the traditional texts but in many ways I regard it as more sacred than many of the others which have been modified by unconscious people and lost much of their intent.

Edited November 16, 2010 by Jetsun

[manitou]

The Nag Hammadi gospels are actually kind of interesting. They were discovered hidden in a farmer's field in Egypt in maybe 1948 and have been translated by an association of people in different languages, so there is a type of integrity that the concurrent translators reached with their work. If you're not familiar with the Nag Hammadi gospels, they're the ones that were hidden away when Constantine was destroying all canons that he didn't want in the Bible. These are particularly fun because the words of the Nazarene seem to point to how to become Enlightened as an individual as opposed to placing any credence in the organized religion of the day. Needless to say, Constantine wouldn't have wanted this to be common knowledge - too hard to control. Some of the gospels are pretty awesome (some of them seem pretty ridiculous too).

[Moonbar]

The Nag Hammadi gospels are actually kind of interesting. They were discovered hidden in a farmer's field in Egypt in maybe 1948 and have been translated by an association of people in different languages, so there is a type of integrity that the concurrent translators reached with their work. If you're not familiar with the Nag Hammadi gospels, they're the ones that were hidden away when Constantine was destroying all canons that he didn't want in the Bible. These are particularly fun because the words of the Nazarene seem to point to how to become Enlightened as an individual as opposed to placing any credence in the organized religion of the day. Needless to say, Constantine wouldn't have wanted this to be common knowledge - too hard to control. Some of the gospels are pretty awesome (some of them seem pretty ridiculous too).

 

 

Hello there Manitou

 

Could i ask you for more information about Constantine destroying Gospels he didnt want in the Bible?

It is information extremely pertinent to a discussion i have been having with a friend

Your help will be appreciated, thankyou.

[bobg]

I have one thing to say. this is why i joined this site. I am from a hermetic discipline, even to say this is not accurate.. but the closet to the truth. Taoism has always been the closet path to perfection(readily available) because it puts the power in the individuals hands. Most sacred texts are false(as it concerns us) because either they are doctored or apply to a different age. This is where people really go wrong.. they get caught up in rules of different ages. Be it egyptian, sumerian... one of the true translations of the ten commandments states "acquire as much knowledge of the universe as you need to follow creational law"

 

I can say Falun dafa is a very beneficial practise. also, franz bardon.

[Marblehead]

Sorry to disappoint. All religious texts were created by humans!

 

This is my first visit to this thread and all I wanted to do was make sure someone had already mentioned what is quoted.

 

Bye!

 

[strawdog65]

Question...

The very act of creating a religious text...

Is this not predicated by the hand of man?

 

Are not all religious text's merely the work of Man?

 

I mean no slight in saying this.

 

Words... regardless of how they originate, have true

power when they mold the fabric of societies. As all

religious text's have had this effect, there's no way

to downplay the power they possess.

 

Man/womankind have made all of the significantly

consequential works we read today. God is absent.

 

God, and belief in him, only merit admiration for

the positive influence the Idea of God has had on

the minds that seek no further answer.

 

Of course..I am not included in that group.

[Marblehead]

True. Regardless of how the author claims to have been inspired to write what he/she wrote, every single word written are words that formed in his/her mind prior to writing the word on paper or whatever.

 

So they are all words of man and not words of some divinity.

 

Now, this is not to take anything away from what was written because there are many valuable things said in nearly all written texts.

 

The texts may become sacred but they are made sacred by the reader. Again, by man.

 

And yes, I agree that the words of many texts have power for the believer. But not for the non-believer.

 

But as Chuang Tzu said (paraphrase), "Once the concepts of words have been grasped the words can be forgotten." Isn't he suggesting here that we shouldn't hold the words of these texts as sacred? Or even the texts themselves?

[leo17]

I never understood why/how anyone who believes in metaphysical energy can't also accept that someone/something put that energy there in the first place or that someone/something may actually be that energy. I'm not suggesting that one should believe that God is/was a man standing over you with a whip and will bring punishment down on you for not choosing what he prefers for you. I'm only suggesting that one should consider it a possibility that something greater than himself could and may exist.

[Marblehead]

I never understood why/how anyone who believes in metaphysical energy can't also accept that someone/something put that energy there in the first place or that someone/something may actually be that energy. I'm not suggesting that one should believe that God is/was a man standing over you with a whip and will bring punishment down on you for not choosing what he prefers for you. I'm only suggesting that one should consider it a possibility that something greater than himself could and may exist.

 

But which god is one to believe in. Over time man has created the concept of god hundreds of times. Every culture had its original concept to explain what is and why and all these concepts were based primarily on ignorance.

 

And so, if the blind are following the ignorant I wouldn't expect humanity to advance very far.

 

Yes, there are many things in the universe that are far greater than I. But still, all these greatnesses follow "natural" processes. Why is there a need for "unnatural" causes and controllers? I, personally, see no need.

[shaolin]

The Quran is the only text that I know of that has not been altered by man. It even offers a challenge to the whole of mankind and spirts in order to test its authenticity and to try and discredit it.

 

The Quran was either made by man, being an arab or non arab, or God. All texts written by man will naturally have human attributes such as having the posibility of contradictions, errors, and having the ability to be changed and revised.

 

The Quran states "If you doubt that this is revelation from God, then produce just one verse like it and seek help from whoever you like from man and spirit. But you will never be able to do it , so beware of the fire , whose fuel is men( who worship other than God) and stones ( the idols that were taken as objects of worship by mankind).

 

The idols were followed and worshipped and they will be placed in the fire and their followers will follow them in to it.

 

The biggest idol worshipped today is money, but idols include anything that is worshipped in any way, including by love, fear, reverence, reliance, obedience, etc.

 

 

So its a simple challenge that if met, would descredit and nullify the authenticity of the Quran as being revelation from God.

 

To produce a verse "like it", would mean a single verse of the same length of the smallest one in the Quran which is about 4 lines.

 

Similar in language, style, grammer, rythm and meaning.

 

This has not been done since the Quran was revealed over 1,420 years ago.

 

The pagan arabs could not do it and they recognised the greatness of the text and no one actually claimed that Muhammad wrote it himself. The Quran was revealled over a perion of 23 years and its style , meaning and grammer are totally different to all recorded speech of Muhammad. People were constantly looking for evidence that he produced it himself, but his speech was totally different to that of the Quran. That means if he was a fraud, he would have had to scan his speech before he said anything for over 20 years.

[Marblehead]

The Quran was written by man. It is initially based on the Christian Bible's Old Testament as presented by the Jews.

 

How much more man-made can you get?

[shaolin]

Hi Marblehead, hope all is well with you!

 

 

That is a claim that is often made and is a sweeping generalisation. This is because most people who make such a claim have not looked deeply in to the Quran but know of similarities in its content and the fact that the Quran came after the bible.

 

It is due to the chronology of revelation and why there is such a chronology.

 

The Old Testament or Torah was revealled to the children of Isreal who eventually defied the requests of God and returned to idolatry while Moses was leading them. They also changed their books, and removed many chapters and added new ones and even made up their own books and treated them as revelation such as the talmud.

 

Then God revealed revelation to Jesus with the Bible.

 

This was also tampered with and fraudently compiled and people began to actually fall in to idolatry by worshipping Jesus and his mother Mary.

 

The jews rejected the new additions of the bible, and did not accept Jesus as the massiah and are still waiting for theirs to arrive.

 

 

The bible did not copy the Torah, it re affirmed what was lost and changed and the Quran has done the same. The difference being that God promised that the Quran would not be changed and that it would be protected.

 

The whole theme of revelation, right from the start was to worship One God alone without any partners. When this messege was ignored or altered it was re affirmed and finally protected in the Quran.

 

This is why the books are similar and follow an order in which the Torah came first and Quran last.

 

Youtube "who wrote the bible " and "the history of the bible" for more details surrounding these issues.

 

The bottom line is that claims must be supported by factual evidence and the challenge has stood for over 1,420 years.

[thelerner]

[manitou]

This really does put us on the horns of an enema. One would have to look at the intent that the author of the tome had, as to what agenda he was pushing. If the author regarded himself as an expert, then his ego would be clouding his vision. But would a seriously humble person have been able to do what it took to write down and disseminate his own inner knowledge?

The Nazarene wasn't an author.

Gautama wasn't an author, to my knowledge.

In order for pure truth to be written down, it would have to come out of humility. By the nature of this, others would most likely be the ones writing down their perception of what the seriously humble person was thinking or wanting to teach.

I'm thinking all these things are guideposts. They will only carry us so far. The rest is a process of self-realization that is between you and the life force, whatever name you want to give it.

[manitou]

Hello there Manitou

 

Could i ask you for more information about Constantine destroying Gospels he didnt want in the Bible?

It is information extremely pertinent to a discussion i have been having with a friend

Your help will be appreciated, thankyou.

 

Hi Moonbar -

You know, I was kind of talking out of my butt when I said that, about Constantine. I've just always 'heard' that (starting with a philosophy class in college). I believe it's true. I do have a copy of the Nag Hammadi in the preface and let me quote a paragraph for you, though it doesn't mention Constantine:

 

"In 367 (AD), Athanasius, the orthodox patriarch of Alexandria, wrote an Easter letter to be read in all the monasteries of Egypt, calling upon them to eliminate from their libraries apocryphal writings; in the letter he listed those books that were to be included as acceptable--the oldest extant list of the twenty-seven books in the New Testament. It has been suggested that the Nag Hammadi codices were among the books that had to be excluded but were buried for safekeeping in a sealed jar by those who valued them."

 

As far as more directly linking this to Constantine, you might want to do some googling.

[shaolin]

Hi thelearner,

 

The Quran is in Arabic and there are some english translations of quranic verses that give the wrong meaning.

 

With regard to the verses you mentioned, I can explain their meaning in Arabic and you can check the words for yourself if you like.

 

The world is flat, nor does it state that the sun moves around the earth. Its scientific details are 100%.

 

Marblehead,

 

There is only one all powerful unlimited THING that exists. Everything else is limited and reliant. This unlimited originator is the only thing worthy of worship.

 

One God, many human minds that have been given free will and intelligence.

 

Im happy to go over each poing in detail, its difficult on a forum where we can all chip in with more questions, so please be patient. We can go very deep and should do , to give the topic its due.