When are taobums gonna wake up,if ever?

[Stigweard]

As someone who has trained and taught Taiji for many years I will agree that many, many practitioners need a serious wake up call. If you are not pressure testing your style then you are not doing yourself or your students any favors at all.

 

I regularly watch mma fights often to remind myself of this. How would a Taiji player stand up against the likes of Fedor Emelianenko? Most likely they would last 5 seconds if they were lucky (I'd probably last even less ).

 

We have to be realistic with ourselves. I am not training to go in the ring, nor am I training for full combat-zone readiness. I train because I love to train keeping in mind that, at best, my skills would probably handle 80% of what you would commonly see on the street. Put me in a ring though against a trained professional like Fedor and I would have my ass handed to me and probably have a new one torn open to boot.

 

So I agree with the sentiment that the carry-on from a lot of internal martial artists is pure BS. If you want to claim you are superior then train your ass up, get the gloves on and we will see you in the UFC so that you can prove it to us one way or the other. And I also call BS on the response, "It wont work in the UFC because there are too many rules," or "we train to kill so we are doing the opponents a favor by not competing".

 

[NeiChuan]

 

 

Oh im using this one haha

 

And I also call BS on the response, "It wont work in the UFC because there are too many rules," or "we train to kill so we are doing the opponents a favor by not competing".

 

 

Yeah I agree, unless they can do a Hadou-ken or something.

Edited November 20, 2010 by NeiChuan

[orb]

Although, here Blacktaoist Novell Bell, the Bagua fighter is actually teaching the MMA fighters-

BLACKTAOIST TEACHES DIPSET RECRUITS (IRON RING BET MMA REALITY SHOW)

 

Do you pay attention to the size of this guy ?

There is no Bagua Skill in this video or any IMA at all - He is just a naturally strong man and a heavyweight so he can push you around easily because he is just bigger. There's nothing Bagua about this person.

[Gerard]

...all these "flower power" practitioners will never change their mind cause they are too scared to step into the ring and learn their lesson...

 

Not everyone is interested in stepping into any rings to prove how big their egos are, or to deal with karmic issues resulting from childhood abuse.

 

Good health and spiritual development are more important than martial arts.

[adept]

Not everyone is interested in stepping into any rings to prove how big their egos are, or to deal with karmic issues resulting from childhood abuse.

 

Good health and spiritual development are more important than martial arts.

 

+1

[orb]

Not everyone is interested in stepping into any rings to prove how big their egos are, or to deal with karmic issues resulting from childhood abuse.

 

Good health and spiritual development are more important than martial arts.

 

 

 

Your post makes you sound so taoist and so noble, It clearly indicates an advanced spiritual being with a crystal-clean karma cultivated in a sweet unconditionally loving family with nonexistent Egos that believes in loving hands and breeds unicorns as a family business.

 

 

I was talking to people that call themselves Martial Artists - which implies that they want to learn how to fight.

 

You should avoid these kind of negative posts, why poison your holiness with my kind of egotistic vibration, it might affect your "Good health and spiritual development"

[Sloppy Zhang]

Not everyone is interested in stepping into any rings to prove how big their egos are, or to deal with karmic issues resulting from childhood abuse.

 

Good health and spiritual development are more important than martial arts.

 

Sometimes fighting is necessary. Sometimes people will come in, and pick a fight, even if there is none. Sometimes they will hurt, or at least attempt to hurt, those you care about, or even people you don't know but otherwise have nothing to do in that situation. Sometimes they will come for you, by virtue of the fact that you do nothing other than exist in their line of sight.

 

When that happens, I for one want a martial art that can actually DO something. Because flowery words, good intention, and a superior attitude isn't going to get you out of trouble once the shit hits the fan.

 

And nobody come up with some crap about "oh well in the modern days, combat is fought with guns and rockets, hand to hand fighting is outdated." BULLSHIT! TONS of fights occur on a hand to hand, or small weapons scale (close range knives, blunt objects, etc etc). There are a lot of street smart people out there. They aren't going to run around shooting people up. Guns make noise, bring attention, are traceable, etc etc. Fists aren't so much. Plenty of guys out there who will hurt you, or kill you, bare handed.

 

If an art like bagua, or other internal MARTIAL arts, not only can bring health, but bring superior fighting prowess, well, shouldn't that be tested as rigorously as possible? I feel it should. Otherwise you are doing yourself and others a grave disservice.

Edited November 22, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[Gerard]

Sometimes fighting is necessary...

 

 

You attract the energy you give out. You'll fight if you seek or need fights. I don't, hence won't get involved in any.

 

I approach Bagua for health and spiritual purposes. And of ocurse, I know it is a superior MA, just ask my current teacher for instance, whom I happened to ask a couple of weeks ago: J. have you ever used Bagua in a threatening situation? His answer was quite clear: hell no! And I hope I won't ever have to, for God's sake not.

[NeiChuan]

You attract the energy you give out. You'll fight if you seek or need fights. I don't, hence won't get involved in any.

 

I approach Bagua for health and spiritual purposes. And of ocurse, I know it is a superior MA, just ask my current teacher for instance, whom I happened to ask a couple of weeks ago: J. have you ever used Bagua in a threatening situation? His answer was quite clear: hell no! And I hope I won't ever have to, for God's sake not.

 

Hahah! that's awesome

[Sloppy Zhang]

You attract the energy you give out. You'll fight if you seek or need fights. I don't, hence won't get involved in any.

 

I suppose you don't keep a flash light on hand with a fresh pair of batteries, because you don't put out the energy that the lights are going to go out, or there is going to be a storm.

 

I suppose you don't lock your door at night, because you don't put out the energy that someone is going to break into your house, and do who knows what?

 

I suppose you don't have a fire escape plan, because you don't put out the energy that the building you're in is going to burn down?

 

I suppose you don't check both ways before you cross the street, because you don't put out the energy to get hit by a car?

 

The view you are putting forward is short sighted and rather naive. Just because you learn how to fight and defend yourself, and you make sure that what you are doing works, does NOT mean you are "looking for a fight". In fact, many systems of self defense teach conflict avoidance and de-escalation techniques. Actually getting into a fight is the absolute LAST resort, and should be avoided at ALL costs. But sometimes it just happens.

 

I approach Bagua for health and spiritual purposes. And of ocurse, I know it is a superior MA, just ask my current teacher for instance, whom I happened to ask a couple of weeks ago: J. have you ever used Bagua in a threatening situation? His answer was quite clear: hell no! And I hope I won't ever have to, for God's sake not.

 

That's good. And if you live in a developed country, use some common sense, and avoid risk areas, it's very likely that you can go your entire life without even being in a fight (well, at least one you don't put yourself in) trained or untrained.

 

Yet as the saying goes, chance favors the prepared mind. I'd rather think ahead, and prepare adequately for an encounter that might happen, though I know that it very well may not ever happen. Better to have, and not need, than need, and not have.

 

If you think that is inviting danger upon myself, well...

 

You better take the batteries out of your emergency flashlight, unlock your door, forget your fire escape plan, and quit looking both ways before you cross the street, because guess what? You are inviting natural disaster, burglary, fire, and motor vehicle accidents to you and those around you!

Edited November 22, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[orb]

edited

Edited November 22, 2010 by orb

[JessOBrien]

Hi everyone,

 

I saw Kumar's name on this thread so I thought I'd jump in. I've done some training with him and have found it to be quite fascinating and effective for martial arts.

 

To begin with, Kumar is in his 60's. He no longer fights, and has pretty much retired from teaching martial arts. So he is not going in to the UFC any time soon.

 

However, he did get into a lot of dangerous situations over the years. He has told me about his experiences with sport fighting, street fighting, security work, and challenge matches. He has won and lost in all of these areas.

 

His first point about martial arts is that everything must be tested in non-cooperative sparring, at the least. Period.

 

Based on my conversations with him, I'd say that this is accurate according to his philosophy: Your ability to grow in martial arts is 100% limited by your fight experience. For instance, if someone has sparred with hundreds of opponents in friendly matches, they can only reach a certain level. However, if someone has tested their skills in random, chaotic street fights where anything goes, they can perhaps reach a mediocre level. If you have tested your skills in challenge matches where severe injury or death is acknowledged as an acceptable outcome, against opponents with skill levels significantly higher than yours, you may then possibly reach a high level of martial arts skills. Not a guarantee, but the potential is there.

 

That's if. If you don't follow that approach, then don't bother with martial arts. If you want to excel at martial arts there is no other way. However, note that being mediocre is just fine, if you accept that. No shame in being a low level martial artist, most of us are. Just don't fall into the traditional martial arts trap of thinking you can get good without losing fights. You can't. Even more importantly, you have to win some too.

 

What he calls "Spiritual" martial arts is even more severe. Beyond the above requirements, you have to devote yourself to Taoist meditation as well. So it's like doing a double major PhD. Most people don't want to put in this level of work and challenge. Not only do you have to find fights, and survive them, but you must apply your meditation skills before, during and after the matches. Your ego, feelings, anger, sadness, pain, etc must all be confronted, and dissolved. This can be a very rigorous and challenging experience. From Kumar's perspective Spiritual martial arts is a very difficult thing to pursue, making regular martial arts look like a much easier process. Facing the most terrifying and paralyzing things inside your mind and spirit, while in the middle of a high octane sparring match is not a picnic by any means.

 

As to the general sense that Chinese martial arts don't work for sport fighting, I think that it's best to consider Asian martial arts and fighting sports to be two separate realms. They cross over a bit, but sports are a western phenomenon and Asian martial arts are unique to the east. They can fight each other, but aside from that they have very different goals and methods. Sport takes a tremendous amount of dedication and effort to achieve results. Martial arts for most of us is just a fun hobby that we enjoy. Comparing the two is a total waste of time, unless it's a sparring match. Roy Jones is a world class athlete, one of the greatest boxers of our lifetime, who made millions of dollars defeating the best opponents on the planet. What an insult to compare him to an average bloke who does a few hours of kung fu per week! What kind of idiot would ever make that comparison? Just shows a childish mentality with no respect for the sacrifices that pro sports players make. If you aren't training 6 hours a day for your entire life you have no right to talk about what pro athletes go through.

 

For the average joe like myself, my advice is: go grab some gloves, put them on and slug it out for a while. It's fun! And it's a great way to see your emotions and energy come out of you. I suspect that most of us do better in a sparring match than we'd expect, you just have to try to find out.

 

Sincerely,

 

Jess O

[Sloppy Zhang]

Hey Jess O, thanks for adding some perspective!

 

I certainly agree with the point that most people, at best, are just going to become mediocre fighters. And seeing as how lots of people don't live in situations were violence is common, even a mediocre level is probably far above what you'd need in your entire life!

 

It's fine if you say you don't want to fight, you don't train to fight, and you don't know, or care, what the martial applications are or if they are effective.

 

But for me, that's no longer a MARTIAL art. That's just a meditative/energy art. B.K. Frantzis mentions (from my recollection) that there are monastic traditions of bagua that do not come in contact with martial arts at all. They are no doubt valuable and have contributed to the advancement of humans. But that's still not fighting.

 

Just be honest. With others, and especially with yourself. Know what you are studying for, and know your own limitations. And tell people what the boundaries are. Make sure YOU know what your boundaries are. Otherwise you might think, "ah, I will flow with the tao and persevere!" and you instead wind up with a knife in your gut.

 

For me, fighting is valuable. Not in a sense of, "hey I'm going to go out and look for a fight", but, more like, "fighting has occurred throughout the history of civilization, and occurs on a daily basis in the present, I am going to be prepared." It's a precaution. I'd like to know that in certain situations, I'd be able to protect myself and possibly others, even if it doesn't happen, just as I'd like to know that in the event that the power goes out, I'll have a flashlight with full batteries.

Edited November 22, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[orb]

Nice post Jess. Thx

[sifusufi]

Before

 

 

After

 

 

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/dallas/news/story?id=5810898

 

 

Love Hurts

[Gerard]

Hi everyone...

 

Not everyone practising IMA are interested in the martial aspect. The foundation of IMA is to be found in Daoist and Buddhist methods which have ZERO interest in hurting any sentient beings. This is also my approach and this is how I see it: purely internal work with external awareness.

 

If you are keen to approach IMA with your fist in mind, go ahead, you are free to do so, but don't expect to attain a Buddha mind or Wuji state.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Not everyone practising IMA are interested in the martial aspect. The foundation of IMA is to be found in Daoist and Buddhist methods which have ZERO interest in hurting any sentient beings. This is also my approach and this is how I see it: purely internal work with external awareness.

 

If you are keen to approach IMA with your fist in mind, go ahead, you are free to do so, but don't expect to attain a Buddha mind or Wuji state.

 

And that's fine, but in that situation, you aren't practicing the martial art of bagua. You are practicing bagua meditation, you are practicing bagua circle walking, bagua energetics, bagua whatever. But you are no longer practicing the MARTIAL art of bagua.

 

Internal martial arts are still martial arts. If you decide to cut out the martial aspects of the art (even if they still maintain lots of spiritual components), then it's not a martial art.

 

There's nothing inherently wrong with that. Just don't try to fool yourself or try to fool others by saying stuff like, "well it's a superior martial art, it'll work when I need it to", because, well, a LOT of people think that about their art, and if they are lucky, they only get the crap beat out of them. Martial training involves martial training. Even if you have the most spiritual martial art in the world, if it's a martial art, it deserves to be treated as such. If you choose not to do so, you choose not to practice the martial arts.

 

Which, again, is fine.

Edited November 23, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[JessOBrien]

Hi Gerard,

 

When it comes to Spiritual martial arts as I mentioned above, there are people who choose to use fighting as a way to train meditation skills. It's not for everyone though.

 

For instance, if you are sparring with someone, that kind of pressure and intensity can help you reach a level of mindfulness that is hard to get in regular practice. When you are pushed to the absolute edge of your ability to stay awake, you can learn a lot about how your mind works.

 

Spiritual martial arts uses a lot of methods: training the body, working with energy, solo forms, push ups, techniques, sparring, weapons training, sitting, standing, tons of stuff. Fighting is just one of the methods used to further refine awareness.

 

It's not for everyone, but I was taught this way and it's quite useful.

 

My goal in martial arts has nothing to do with self defense. Every aspect of training, from calisthenics, chi gung, forms, two person techniques, massage, sparring, every single aspect is used to further the goal of better understanding my "self", how my mind and body work, becoming aware of the illusions and falsehoods that are gumming up my consciousness.

 

For me self-defense is not an issue. I'm a big guy with a stupid grin on my face and no one bothers me. Martial arts is ONLY useful to me as a way of training my mind and body together. Whether I'm doing techniques, forms, jumprope, chi gung, sparring, they are all exactly the same to me. Just different tools for cultivation of the same thing.

 

To me, that's what Asian martial arts have to offer that self-defense, fight sports, and military training don't deliver as effectively.

 

Sincerely,

 

Jess O'Brien

[SFJane]

Just some thoughts after reading this thread. First, thanks for the vids. I loved the Roy Jones one most.

As another mentioned, Bruce is in his 60s and I don't expect that he is going throw down in vale tudo at this point.

 

Bruce once told me along with some other attendees at a retreat once that by the time he was in mid-20s he had severely hurt some people with IMA in serious two men enter one man leaves type fighting in Asia.

 

I happen to enjoy martial arts and what little teeny tiny bit of Bruce's martial art stuff that I have been lucky to learn revolutionized my sparring and self defense game. I went from being afraid of closing with people and moving in and out of point blank range to preferring to close with people and staying there for the duration.

 

Re: Gerard's judgments.

 

Frankly I think it's nice if you can arrange to live in an ideal world and never have to worry about your safety. Not all of us have that luxury. Myself, when I was living in Sac I went a few years without exchanging harsh words with anyone. But I practiced martially anyway, just in case. And it was nice to be able to practice in the American River Park and never or rarely be disturbed.

 

I moved to San Francisco almost seven years ago and almost immediately ran into situations where I had to defend myself. And you better believe that in that kind of situation, as Sloppy said: chance favors the prepared mind.

 

Although I was not looking for trouble, because of my economic situation, I lived in places in this city where trouble had no problem finding me. Unlike Jess, I am not very big, and with my long hair and glasses I do not exactly look scary or threatening. There is a lot of mental illness in this city and I've been in situations where people have gotten right up in my face without provocation.

 

I do practice martial arts because time has proven again and again that the investment has paid off in keeping me alive and intact. I have it personally from a dispatcher that the police response time in SF can be upwards of twenty minutes. If you get into an altercation it will be probably be over before it occurs to someone to call 911. During that time, your training is what will get you out of that situation in one piece.

 

While I am no expert at fighting I have successfully defended myself on multiple occasions using Bruce's material. How are you ever going to get to wuji if you are unconscious, flat on your back in intensive care because you couldn't defend yourself because your 'vibes' made sure such a thing could never happen to you? (Also known as famous last words.)

Edited November 23, 2010 by SFJane

[orb]

From my understanding the person that started the thread was addressing the people that consider IMA from the martial art point of view not from the spiritual point of view. Spirituality in IMA is a totally different topic. If Bagua brings you closer to GOD so be it. That's between you and GOD (or your awareness or whatever you wanna call your spiritual experience) and that's nobody's business.

But when It comes to IMA as a martial art there's always this big lie - there's a teacher who basically tells the students that they develop a lot of internal power and that power can make you stronger then a person that has the same physical power but didn't practice the IMA.

And this attitude got perfected over time.

There's no way you can get a simple demonstration ever from these guys.

The teacher has 1 mln answers in order to avoid the simple test.

 

Here's answers

1) They deviate the discussion to a different direction always - so if you fight - then you have a big Ego.

2) If you fight - you hurt a sentient being.

3) If you fight - your inner energy is so devastating that you could kill your opponent.

or

4) The teacher used to fight but long time ago when he was younger or less experienced and had a terrible experience (by mistake he killed his entire village or smth like that)...

5) The teacher is so advanced and detached that he simply is not willing to show it to you anymore because now he is into meditation and healing stuff only.

or the more simple ones

6) It's just bad for your karma and Buddha was not a fighter.

7) He promised his dead teacher that he will never use his energy in a fight. etc etc etc...

 

or the one that I really despise:

 

They never understand

8) "I don't understand why do you need a proof? ( I am going to make it simple and give you the answer to this one so that you don't bother wasting your own braincells on it: - because I have a huge Ego, I will never understand the principle that you learn to fight so that you never fight and I am a totally undeveloped ignorant spiritual moron and I was abused in my childhood from any point of view you can think of and I am full of fears, hatred, negativity, zero compassion and I always had a very small penis compared to every other male out there which is obviously the main source of my negativity and lack of self-esteem.

Also feel free to add other reasons as well.

 

Now that we got all that out of the way - I have one request:

 

All I am asking for is an IMA guy who is willing to kick my ass using his internal skill (I am not stupid to ask that from an external martial artist). And I promise to you that I will never hate you and your karma will be clean as a whistle.

This is a very simple deal: You or your teacher kicks my ass using his IMA skill and I will praise him forever.

 

Is this too much to ask for? Somebody out there please feel sorry for me. Show some compassion.

Please, please, please!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[JessOBrien]

Hi Orb,

 

Sounds like you are describing stupid people. Don't buy into people's fantasies of power. The world is full of fools and those who manipulate them. People like that are best avoided, which is what I do.

 

I understand that you've been frustrated in finding someone who can show you what you are looking for. I was lucky enough to receive severe beatings from teachers, which is why I continue to train with them until this day. There is no substitute for hands-on experience.

 

If you want to spar with someone who is competent in IMA, it shouldn't be too hard.

 

Where are you at, I may have a school brother or friend who can help you out.

 

Good luck in your quest!

 

Jess O

[Gerard]

...All I am asking for is an IMA guy who is willing to kick my ass using his internal skill (I am not stupid to ask that from an external martial artist).

 

With that intent, I doubt you'll ever find the real deal. Put more work on your karma.

 

 

 

...And I promise to you that I will never hate you and your karma will be clean as a whistle.

This is a very simple deal: You or your teacher kicks my ass using his IMA skill and I will praise him forever.

 

Is this too much to ask for? Somebody out there please feel sorry for me. Show some compassion.

Please, please, please!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Yuanfen.

 

Let me tell you something and take this advice any way you like it: there are very highly skilled teachers in China (still active today) who can give you what you are after but the requirements are very strict:

 

1. They only teach people who are highly virtuous (don't worry they will read you like an open book)

 

2. You need to be very fluent in Mandarin.

 

Good luck.

[Aaron]

If you think Tao is about self-defense, you need to wake up. There isn't a fist in the universe that can stop a bullet. If you want to defend yourself, go buy a glock, if you want to learn how to stay alive without having someone beat the crap out of you, then read the Tao Teh Ching... it's about avoiding conflict.

 

Aaron

Edited November 24, 2010 by Twinner

[Sloppy Zhang]

If you think Tao is about self-defense, you need to wake up. There isn't a fist in the universe that can stop a bullet. If you want to defend yourself, go buy a glock,

 

Because every time someone wants to hurt you, it's with a gun. [/sarcasm]

 

if you want to learn how to stay alive without having someone beat the crap out of you, then read the Tao Teh Ching... it's about avoiding conflict.

 

Aaron

 

Because avoidance works 100% of the time [/sarcasm] Take a look at SFJane's rather excellent post- sometimes shit happens, and you are there!

[Aaron]

Because every time someone wants to hurt you, it's with a gun. [/sarcasm]

 

 

 

Because avoidance works 100% of the time [/sarcasm] Take a look at SFJane's rather excellent post- sometimes shit happens, and you are there!

 

 

Hello SZ,

 

I never said that every time someone wants to hurt you, it's with a gun, you're implying something that isn't there, I said, that if one really wants to defend themselves, a gun would be better.

 

Some things you can't avoid, but most of the time, as someone else pointed out, if you're in a place where you need to fight, you've probably put yourself in that place. The Tao Teh Ching has nothing to do with fighting, not even remotely. Martial Arts came as a result of a need to defend oneself in a time when people were still using spears, swords, and bows and arrows. The people studying these arts were Taoist so they applied Taoist concepts to their martial arts, but that doesn't mean that Lao Tzu ever encouraged martial arts as a means of wu-wei or as an expression of Tao.

 

I appreciate that you wanted to clarify the mistakes in my argument, but I would recommend that you spend some time clarifying what I've said in the future, before responding. After all my comment would be considered hard, perhaps the best response would've been soft.

 

Aaron

Edited November 24, 2010 by Twinner