When are taobums gonna wake up,if ever?

[Guest sykkelpump]

This is only boxing,anyway this is all I se frantzis do:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDWnMXzgeZo

well everybody here I think belive varjasattva can beat this guy,but no:he dont want fame or money,he just want to keep advertating on tao bums and earn his money on tao bums like ya mu and others.they never want to show their skills but talks a lot about it.

Ok boxing is boxing,then they wil say no rules,ok mma.close:

then they will say street fight:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQYkfOEOBC4

then they will say:poking in eyes etc,(everybody can do that??.Ok

nobody shows it,why.Because they dont wont attention fameous and money?

Well many of them do exactly this like frantzis and MANY others.

then they say?

I am waiting.please wake up tao bums

[Gerard]

Sometimes I think the Daoist and Buddhist hermit monks that taught DHC Baguazhang made a big mistake, but on the other I think it was for the benefit of humanity so they had to transmit the art to an outsider who happened to be a martial artist. And yes this art goes beyond kicking and punching. I think you totally missed the point but I doubt you ever walked the circle.

 

 

Regards.

[Marblehead]

Well,

 

Sykkelpump has a point but I will counter with a question:

 

Who is to determine who may or may not present themselves as teachers/trainers here on this forum?

 

I think that Sean would be the only one with that authority.

 

But then, I think he has better things to do in life than to evaluate everyone who makes a post on this forum suggesting any particular practice or technique.

 

Each member here is an individual. We need to make our own decisions based on what we think we need in order to make our life a more meaningful event.

 

We each are going to make decisions. We will make many mistakes. That's life. But then, what is good for one person might be very bad for another so who would even think of telling someone else what is best for them?

 

I think that it is good that we have a lot of information available to us so that we can make better decisions. But then, I don't suggest that a person take only one person's word for something and jump into the pool. Afterall, there might be alligators in the pool.

 

Do your research, make your decision, accept full responsibility for your decisions and the courses of action you follow.

 

There are many people who believe that they are good at doing something and many wish to earn an income from this (believed) ability. Nothing wrong with that.

 

I don't like censorship.

[Immortal4life]

I wouldnt think anyone would say boxing, muay thai, judo, jiu jitsu, wrestling, sambo, or mma arent great arts and havent produced great fighters.

 

You are presenting examples of some of the best ever in their respective arts, in a highlight reel no less, and then saying you want them to fight people in their art who are perhaps past their fighting prime or not one of the greats of all time in the art......kind of pointless.

Edited November 19, 2010 by Immortal4life

[de_paradise]

Darn, I thought this thread was going to be about enlightenment.

Edited November 19, 2010 by de_paradise

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

This is only boxing,anyway this is all I se frantzis do:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDWnMXzgeZo

well everybody here I think belive varjasattva can beat this guy,but no:he dont want fame or money,he just want to keep advertating on tao bums and earn his money on tao bums like ya mu and others.they never want to show their skills but talks a lot about it.

Ok boxing is boxing,then they wil say no rules,ok mma.close:

then they will say street fight:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQYkfOEOBC4

then they will say:poking in eyes etc,(everybody can do that??.Ok

nobody shows it,why.Because they dont wont attention fameous and money?

Well many of them do exactly this like frantzis and MANY others.

then they say?

I am waiting.please wake up tao bums

 

I'm not sure what Baron Von Sykkelpump is saying in this post, really. I get so bored with my teacher/sifu can kick your teacher/sifu's ass. MMA usually boils down to who is a better grappler and who is in top condition, not which martial tradition is superior.

 

I think taobums has much less to do with martial abilities than enlightenment. Ya Mu doesn't put himself forth as a martial artist much, if at all, but rather portrays Stillness-Movement as spiritual development and he also offers an extraordinary healing system in Taoist Medicine. He can speak for himself on whether he is interested in martial demonstrations, but I doubt it. Who cares, really?

[Aetherous]

I think sykkelpump was drunk when he made this thread.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Very good points have been made.

 

Styles like boxing, judo, BJJ, karate, even stuff like Tae Kwon Do, have people who train in their styles represent the style in competitive matches. Other styles, such as Krav Maga, are currently in use by some of the best military organizations in the world. They have routinely put their skills, and reputation, on the line, and have come out the victor.

 

Conversely, what have most internal arts and their teachers done? Well, not much. I don't know how many people saw

video, but, well, it's very representative of the state of many things today. Though most of the BGZ guy's stuff wasn't too hot, there are a few times where you can tell he tried to attempt some bagua techniques, and what happens? He runs into a wall of muscle and gets the crap beat out of him (there was a point where he tried to spin, and all he did was give up his back).

 

Now how do most people respond to this? "Well it WAS a fight in the ring after all." Wow. Seriously. The rhetoric around most IMA, and lots of other traditional martial arts (TMA), who either don't fight competitively, or don't have aspects of training which are rooted in sparring/fighting a resisting opponent have lots of carefully crafted reasons excuses for why their arts either 1) won't work in the ring, or 2) will work in a live encounter despite the lack of live training.

 

The people saying stuff about this fight are saying, "well the muay thai guy was better conditioned", "well I'm old and haven't fought for a long time", "well I train for real encounters" and so on, despite stuff you hear from internal styles saying, "it doesn't matter if they are stronger than you," "you get stronger with age because your body gets more supple," and other considerations like that. Furthermore, what kind of "real" encounters are your preparing for if you can't fight a guy with a little muscle?

 

It seems the trend today to work out just to get a hot body. Even if they aren't particularly trained, a lot of people have some serious muscle on their bodies, and brute force HURTS, especially if you're only moderately trained in martial arts and don't know how to handle that kind of opponent (because previously you've only trained against people who know your style and who aren't really trying to hurt you).

 

I look at people who teach traditional martial arts and internal arts and look at what it is they are teaching and how. Lots of those arts do not train in a way that I'd consider live or in a manner that would adequately prepare you for a serious non-friendly encounter.

 

I've heard rumors that B.K. Frantzis, in particular, took part in serious martial competitions with his bagua, and came out on top. But those are rumors I can't confirm. So I don't have any opinion on the martial skill of his person, nor do I comment on the martial skill of his students. Most of what he teaches, and most of his students, seem a lot more focused on the healing aspects, and theoretical competitions. Now it might be that I just haven't heard, but most don't seem to be putting in the training that develops actual combat skills (which is different than just learning combat applications).

 

As for other arts, until I see evidence that they are training in a realistic way, well.... I take most of their "combat" teachings with a giant lump of salt.

 

For energy people talking about combat.... well, look, I personally hold the crazy believe that it's possible. Does that mean I believe the people teaching it can do it? Does it mean I believe that the method they are teaching is the one that will make it work? Not necessarily. I can say that nobody has ever tested it under 1) controlled conditions (science experiments) or 2) hostile conditions (recorded fight) in any real conclusive manner. So, well, it doesn't have a good track record. In fact, it doesn't have ANY track record.

 

For the people saying it's not for the ring, it's not for competitions, well, look at your martial arts history, a lot of bagua, xingyi, and tai chi people stepped up onto the lei tai and fought challengers. Lei tai had (and has) a bit of a different dynamic, because you could push people off, so for the non-violent types it was a great way to showcase skills. It's actually illegal in UFC to throw people out of the ring. So the non-violent types are going to have to use a different skill set to establish their dominance.

 

But look, even at bullshido, a rough place in general, they have respect for tai chi- REAL tai chi. They look at videos of sanshou and lei tai fights (full contact fights) and those who know what they are looking at can see tai chi applications used in fights. Last time I was there (which admittedly hasn't been for a while now), they didn't take kindly to people bashing tai chi as a martial art, because they had seen evidence to the contrary (assuming proper training).

 

I advocate people being up front and honest about what they can do, and part of that is demonstrating skills they claim to possess. No one HAS to step out into the public. No one HAS to demonstrate or share what it is they practice. Everyone has the right to privacy. HOWEVER, if someone steps forward and starts making claims, then those claims need to be substantiated if they want those claims to be treated seriously. Failing to substantiate those claims is suspicious at best. It's not about saying, "who's right" or "who's wrong", it's about everyone holding each other to a standard of accountability, to keep each other grounded in reality, and making sure that the techniques being taught to others are GENUINE techniques that actually WORK, DO what they SAY they can do, do not hurt people doing them, and that leave no room for frauds to take advantage of new students.

 

So, long story short, sykkelpump has a point.

Edited November 19, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[Guest sykkelpump]

haha,yes scotty i was.but anyway it is the thruth.maybe i should tell in a softer way for some of you

[Stigweard]

haha,yes scotty i was.but anyway it is the thruth.maybe i should tell in a softer way for some of you

 

[Martial Development]

When people see ordinary kungfu skill on YouTube, they say, "That's just ordinary!"

When people see extraordinary skill, they say, "It must be fake!"

When people see no skill, they say, "Yeah I believe it!"

 

What is their frame of reference and credibility? Their own personal experience, nothing more.

 

For every humble student of the martial arts, there are 100 YouTube curators who fancy themselves a teacher. Not commenting on anyone here personally, of course--but "waking people up" is serious business and online education does not cut the mustard.

 

 

On the other side of the coin...there are fake masters, sure. And as I have written previously, we need fake masters, because we need someone to absorb all the fake disciples! It's a free market. If you don't like it, move to North Korea...where you'll probably learn more than you ever wanted to know about urban survival...and YouTube best practices won't get you very far.

[Marblehead]

When people see ordinary kungfu skill on YouTube, they say, "That's just ordinary!"

When people see extraordinary skill, they say, "It must be fake!"

When people see no skill, they say, "Yeah I believe it!"

 

 

I wonder where that has its roots. Hehehe.

[devoid]

[...] this is all I se frantzis do:

[...] well everybody here I think belive varjasattva can beat this guy,but no

[...] earn his money on tao bums like ya mu and others.

[...] I am waiting.please wake up tao bums

 

Hi sykkelpump (= bicycle pump in Scandinavian?)

 

I think you're in the wrong forum, Buddy. Try one of the IMA sites where you can find lots of the 'just-wack-em-hard' crowd to cheer in.

[Sloppy Zhang]

When people see ordinary kungfu skill on YouTube, they say, "That's just ordinary!"

When people see extraordinary skill, they say, "It must be fake!"

When people see no skill, they say, "Yeah I believe it!"

 

Since you brought up youtube, mind showing some clips of what would you call "ordinary kungfu skill", "extraordinary skill", and "no skill"? Just so we have a frame of reference?

 

What is their frame of reference and credibility? Their own personal experience, nothing more.

 

On reading the links you posted, you talk about bullshido a bit. How much time have you actually spent on bullshido? How much time did you spend getting to know people there, or at least observing what ACTUALLY happens?

 

I agree that bullshido is a magnet for internet bullies. They want to hate on someone, and bullshido gives them an excuse to do that.

 

However, there is a core in bullshido of people who actually train martial arts (some of them train traditional arts like bajiquan) and who actively visit schools all over the country and organize tournaments where people can get together and test their skills in as real an environment as possible. Yes, there are "rules". Yes, they try to avoid "killing", "eye gouging", and "electrocuting people with chi." But they provide an environment where skilled (or potentially unskilled) fighters can get together and test their techniques against other skilled (or potentially unskilled), determined, resisting opponents.

 

It's important to note that it is the anonymous bullshido user who has made it "cool" to random insult martial arts. Just as it has become cool in other circles to use bullshido as an example of ignorant haters. The core of people at bullshido have put their names and reputation on the line time and time again. They are mature enough to admit when they are wrong. When they meet a teacher who has a training method that actually prepares a student to be able to fight using the techniques they learn, actually teach applications which are feasible, and that actually practice the applications against a live, resisting, determined opponent, they say, "this guy has the goods, respect him, learn from him, if you don't, that's fine, but don't insult him, because if you do, we will run you out of here."

 

Legitimate martial artists have NOTHING to fear from bullshido. They are rough around the edges, and pick up a lot of random internet haters, but they are honest. Even with themselves! If they find a guy teaching BJJ in a poor manner, they try to shut the guy down. Bullshido is no holds barred when it comes to martial arts investigation. They don't pull punches, and they don't care who it is they are hitting. The only way you are "safe" is if you are "legitimate."

 

And if you are up front and honest about what you can and can't do, guess what? THEY DON'T CARE! If you say, "I've never been in real combat, I've never entered a tournament, I've learned this from a teacher but I've never used it in a fight, so just keep that in mind when I teach you combat applications", THEY DON'T CARE! Why? Because you are being HONEST! It's about setting a standard of honesty and then holding everyone to it.

 

For every humble student of the martial arts, there are 100 YouTube curators who fancy themselves a teacher. Not commenting on anyone here personally, of course--but "waking people up" is serious business and online education does not cut the mustard.

 

Youtube comments in general are not a good group to sample. Though I've come across some really intelligent youtube users and made good friends through the comment sections, there's a lot of shit that goes on in them. Because not only do you have someone with an opinion, you've got someone who's willing to log in, leave a comment, then come back and respond. So they're already pretty well into whatever it is they are into.

 

On the other side of the coin...there are fake masters, sure. And as I have written previously, we need fake masters, because we need someone to absorb all the fake disciples!

 

Bull. Shit.

 

It's a free market. If you don't like it, move to North Korea...where you'll probably learn more than you ever wanted to know about urban survival...and YouTube best practices won't get you very far.

 

Wow. Exaggerating a bit?

 

Free market does not mean you are allowed to lie to people about your credentials, about what you can do, about what your art can do, etc etc. That is false advertising. That is illegal. The problem with the martial arts community (and also in the spiritual community, but that's a whole new can of worms) is that there is no set standard. And part of that comes from the community. The consumers.

 

When someone comes in saying, "I can project energy to make the opponent freeze up just long enough for me to apply a technique," or, "this art can beat 8 opponents at once", how do we respond? With "awesome" or "that doesn't sound very probable, let's see it in action".

 

To a certain extent, you can't distrust everything. To a certain extent, you have to rely on the words of other people. However, rely on those words within reason. 8 opponents is a lot of people. There are a lot of very strong, well conditioned people out there (even who aren't trained fighters), are you going to rely on your energy to stop them? Are you not going to pressure test your skills and just say, "well in a real fight it'll work out"? That is dangerous. And fraudulent martial arts teachers telling people this, by virtue of the fact that they are in this position, get away with it. Why? Because there is no standard to judge people by. People new to martial arts go, "well if he's a teacher, and he has his own school, and he has a black belt, he must be real!" Why? Because most other schools and teachers have credentials that they must adhere to! Little do people know that no one is holding martial artists accountable for anything.

[Immortal4life]

do not hurt people doing them

 

Not every great fighter can make this claim about their martial art. I am sure some effective fighters, while they have defeated many people, also have hurt their own bodies.

 

But I agree that internal martial arts have not maintained the standards and level of fighting skill they once had, and no longer have the reputation they had in the past, while other martial arts have maintained that into modern times.

 

At the end of the day you cant really worry about, or care, what other people or other schools are doing. You can only worry about what you are doing.

 

Other schools do not reflect on you, even if they are the same style, only you and the people you train/compete with reflect upon you.

Edited November 19, 2010 by Immortal4life

[Sloppy Zhang]

Not every great fighter can make this claim about their martial art.

 

Well look, it depends on your perspective.

 

Some people look at boxing and say, "training in boxing will hurt you when you get old." Some people look at karate and say, "karate training hurts you when you get old", but then say, "look at this old guy doing bagua, he's so healthy, this art doesn't hurt you when you get old!"

 

And it's like.... well, what are the standards you are using? Conditioning your body to be able to do the techniques you are learning is part of martial arts. Some arts focus on muscle building. So for boxing you gotta work out the muscles you are going to use. There are correct ways of working out, and incorrect ways of working out. Working out incorrectly will hurt you. Working out correctly will not. Look at Billy Blanks (of Tae Bo fame), he's 55 and still going! He's fit even when compared to other people who frequently exercise. Chuck Liddell is 41, and he's still a beast. So to say that "working out" and "muscle building" and stuff will damage your body in the long term, based on what you see of boxers and other athletes (like football players, wrestlers, etc) isn't really correct.

 

Now the people working out building muscle and then learning how to use this for fighting are going the extra step and having a martial art that they are putting on the line. They compete, they train others who compete using the same art and same techniques, and win some and lose some. Hopefully they win more than they lose, and their art becomes pretty reliable.

 

Now you've got arts like many of the internal ones, and they don't compete because of various reasons which I'm sure we're all familiar with, whether we agree or disagree. So not only are we left with kind of a vague set of standards for what "doesn't hurt the practitioner doing it", but we're also left with a vague standard of what a martial art that "works" actually looks like, because we never see it when it's working (we only really see it when it isn't because of practitioners who "aren't doing it right" are getting their asses kicked and having it pasted all over youtube).

 

Meanwhile you got lots of examples of arts that DO work (meaning it has a training method that actually prepares a student to be able to fight using the techniques they learn, actually teach applications which are feasible, and that actually practice and carry out the applications against a live, resisting, determined opponent), coupled with fighters who are quite healthy well into their 40's and 50's.

 

At the end of the day you cant really worry about, or care, what other people or other schools are doing. You can only worry about what you are doing.

 

I agree with this insofar as your own personal training. You do what you do, and don't care about what other people are doing or saying.

 

But at the same time, you also have to be aware. Aware of what you are doing and aware of what others are doing. Is what you are doing effective? Are you getting results that you think you should be getting? Is there a general timeline (keeping in mind that everyone is unique and progresses differently) that you can measure your progress by? Are you seeing the signs of progress?

 

And stretching further (for the people who like to keep other peoples' best interests in mind), are other people doing what they say they are doing? Are they teaching others a method which is effective?

 

Other schools do not reflect on you, even if they are the same style, only you and the people you train with reflect upon you.

 

It's good to get outside of yourself in order to observe yourself. In the "best kung fu master" thread, there was some talk of going into "la la land" or something like that. If you exclusively focus on the way you are doing things, and not thinking of others, you can allow HUGE blind spots. Other people can capitalize on this.

 

BJJ and wrestling did this prior to, and subsequently during, the formation of the UFC. BJJ and wrestling were the styles that got furthest in the competition, surpassing karate, boxing, wing chun, and the like. Why? Because so far everyone had neglected the ground aspect. "Why would you want to fight on the ground? A smart fighter would never take someone to the ground. Holy shit, I'm on the ground, oh fuck, my arm is breaking and I'm being choked out!"

 

In subsequent years, even if you want to be a stand up fighter, having a good defense against ground maneuvers, and being a competent ground fighter yourself, are the best ways to stay standing up. We wouldn't have seen this if we just ignored what everyone else was doing.

[Immortal4life]

It's not necesarily the art or training that can be bad for a person's body. It is totally possible to train boxing, get a good workout, and not kill yourself. It all depends on the person though. Some poeple are willing to put themselves through more punishment, to become greater fighters. This is really a personal choice.

 

Some internal martial artists compete, in various formats, push hands or grappling tournaments on a lei tai platform, San Shou in a ring, etc.

 

Novell Bell using Xingyi Beng Quan fist in full contact San Shou to get a KO-

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4673281458070965814#

 

Freestyle Push hands competition in China-

 

Tai chi vs. San Da sparring-

 

Also, there is a difference between worrying about what other people are doing or thinking it reflects on you, and competing with other people. I have nothing against testing skills and competing with other clubs, and I have nothing against cross training. Many great martial artists in the past, cross trained in other oarts. Many internal martial artists trained in several arts.

Edited November 19, 2010 by Immortal4life

[Martial Development]

Since you brought up youtube, mind showing some clips of what would you call "ordinary kungfu skill", "extraordinary skill", and "no skill"? Just so we have a frame of reference?

 

I have never seen any great YouTube clip comparable to the best of what I've seen in person. Part of that is just the limitations of the medium, I'm sure. But then again, I have been specifically instructed not to post some stuff online, and I'm not the only one. The details are nobody's business...uh-oh, I feel another investigation starting?!

 

As for ordinary skills, you don't need me to point them out, and ditto for no skill. Cuz I'm not the martial arts police, nor do I play one on forums. Except when I do, but that ain't here and now.

 

 

On reading the links you posted, you talk about bullshido a bit. How much time have you actually spent on bullshido? How much time did you spend getting to know people there, or at least observing what ACTUALLY happens?

 

I've spent just enough time there to decide I don't want to spend more time there. The average poster is neither very smart nor very experienced, and their so-called revelations are Martial Arts 101 in my personal opinion. Hearing from the few decent people on there isn't worth suffering the rest.

 

Many of my past, current, and future training partners do not and will not share my low opinion of that forum. Some, like you I gather, disagree 100 percent. And that is OK. I offer alternatives for those who want them.

 

 

However, there is a core in bullshido of people who actually train martial arts (some of them train traditional arts like bajiquan) and who actively visit schools all over the country and organize tournaments where people can get together and test their skills in as real an environment as possible. Yes, there are "rules". Yes, they try to avoid "killing", "eye gouging", and "electrocuting people with chi." But they provide an environment where skilled (or potentially unskilled) fighters can get together and test their techniques against other skilled (or potentially unskilled), determined, resisting opponents.

 

Great. I hope you realize that is not their innovation, but great.

 

 

It's important to note that it is the anonymous bullshido user who has made it "cool" to random insult martial arts.

 

Absurd. When one student is wrong, you hold the student accountable. When they are all wrong, you hold the teacher accountable. Or the moderators. I don't need to hear (again) how their reputation is the victim of an anonymous user base--that is a cowardly excuse unbefitting any adult, much less a courageous martial artist.

 

If you want to know what the martial arts world would look like with those folks calling all the shots, just look at the entire forum as it stands now. No, not a small portion of it; not your favorite corner; all of it. Fcuk my life, I would have to take up fishing instead, before I could stand another worthless lecture about "fully resisting opponents".

 

 

Free market does not mean you are allowed to lie to people about your credentials, about what you can do, about what your art can do, etc etc. That is false advertising. That is illegal. The problem with the martial arts community (and also in the spiritual community, but that's a whole new can of worms) is that there is no set standard. And part of that comes from the community. The consumers.

 

False advertising is usually legal. Lying is legal. And being lame is legal, obviously. Now, who has the strength and fortitude to stand up and protect the freedoms of the lamest, from the zealotry of the fundamentalists?

 

Very few, I tell you what. Enough said about that. I don't want to chat about them any more.

 

In other news, over here in Seattle, yet another citizen video of police brutality was released yesterday. After the cop got the guy cuffed, he started kicking that guy in the groin and head. These are our volunteer champions of law and order. Clearly, we need better screening and training of our volunteers, wouldn't you agree.

[Martial Development]

I wonder where that has its roots. Hehehe.

 

That sly old fox stole my ideas, then traveled time to take all the credit.

[Sloppy Zhang]

I have never seen any great YouTube clip comparable to the best of what I've seen in person. Part of that is just the limitations of the medium, I'm sure. But then again, I have been specifically instructed not to post some stuff online, and I'm not the only one. The details are nobody's business...uh-oh, I feel another investigation starting?!

 

If you choose not to share, that's fine. It's your prerogative. But if you go around saying, "oh well this is not martial arts, I have the real martial arts, oh but no, I'm told I can't show you", well, hopefully you see how that behavior is suspect?

 

I've spent just enough time there to decide I don't want to spend more time there. The average poster is neither very smart nor very experienced, and their so-called revelations are Martial Arts 101 in my personal opinion. Hearing from the few decent people on there isn't worth suffering the rest.

 

Many of my past, current, and future training partners do not and will not share my low opinion of that forum. Some, like you I gather, disagree 100 percent. And that is OK. I offer alternatives for those who want them.

 

No, I do not agree 100% that the average poster isn't the smartest or the most experience. I'd only disagree with you on the extent of the value (or lack thereof) of bullshido and the people who frequent it (some of whom are very experienced, very respectful, and very intelligent).

 

Great. I hope you realize that is not their innovation, but great.

 

Yet some how they catch all the heat for doing it.

 

Absurd. When one student is wrong, you hold the student accountable. When they are all wrong, you hold the teacher accountable. Or the moderators. I don't need to hear (again) how their reputation is the victim of an anonymous user base--that is a cowardly excuse unbefitting any adult, much less a courageous martial artist.

 

That's funny.

 

If you want to know what the martial arts world would look like with those folks calling all the shots, just look at the entire forum as it stands now. No, not a small portion of it; not your favorite corner; all of it. Fcuk my life, I would have to take up fishing instead, before I could stand another worthless lecture about "fully resisting opponents".

 

No, it wouldn't. Do you know why? Because with them "calling all the shots", none of the fakes would have a job. There would be no question of what training methods were effective. New, experimental, and alternative methods would not go around (nor would they be allowed to) making claims about what it can do, how it can beat X number of people, how he can beat someone even if they have Y amount more muscle mass than you, etc etc, and instead would be subjected to rigorous testing and carefully analyzed results before making any claims. Even those new to martial arts would have less of a chance of being duped, because the standards would be so obvious and enforced.

 

If bullshido "called all the shots" in the martial arts world, eventually bullshido would be out of a job. The few amount of newbies that slip through the cracks somehow and don't know the standards of training would not be numerous enough to make it a profitable (if it was even self sustaining) business venture.

 

False advertising is usually legal. Lying is legal. And being lame is legal, obviously. Now, who has the strength and fortitude to stand up and protect the freedoms of the lamest, from the zealotry of the fundamentalists?

 

No one cares if they are lame. Bullshido has no problem with someone being the lamest dude on the planet. Their goal is not to eliminate lame-ness from the world. Their goal is to eliminate the people who are lame and LYING about it.

 

Again, if you show up and say, "hi, I learned bagua (or any other art) from my teacher who is so and so, he said it came from such and such lineage, but I've never met someone else from the lineage, he said it can be used in combat, but I've never used it in a fight, he told me these are what the applications are, but I don't know because I've never used them, and to be honest I haven't really had to, however, bagua has really helped my coordination, circulation, and gives me good exercise. I'll teach you what I know" they'd be perfectly fine.

 

The PROBLEM comes when someone like that says stuff like: "I learned bagua from my teacher, who said it's from a 100,000 year lineage, and unlike normal bagua, which can only fight 8 people at a time, this can fight 78 at a time, and I know, because I used to be a special forces soldier, but I can't tell you where I was deployed because they were all black ops missions, but once we were surrounded by insurgents armed with knives and machetes in south american jungles, and there were 80 of them, and we were out of bullets, and I beat them all and saved all my buddies, but they're dead now so you can't verify that. Also my teacher is well respected in an obscure part of China. If you learn this, you'll be able to fight people who train for "ring" "sports", you won't need to work out, and you'll be able to defend yourself against armed and unarmed attackers."

 

See the difference? It's not about "cool" or "lame", it's about "truth" or "bullshit" (or should I say, "bullshido" )

 

Very few, I tell you what. Enough said about that. I don't want to chat about them any more.

 

I have no interest in support frauds, especially when the stuff they teach can get people killed. And I have very little respect for appealing to concepts such as "strength", "fortitude", "freedom" and the like when they are used to defend the reprehensible actions taken by deliberate frauds.

 

In other news, over here in Seattle, yet another citizen video of police brutality was released yesterday. After the cop got the guy cuffed, he started kicking that guy in the groin and head. These are our volunteer champions of law and order. Clearly, we need better screening and training of our volunteers, wouldn't you agree.

 

Perhaps you should ask that in a new thread?

Edited November 20, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[orb]

It's not necesarily the art or training that can be bad for a person's body. It is totally possible to train boxing, get a good workout, and not kill yourself. It all depends on the person though. Some poeple are willing to put themselves through more punishment, to become greater fighters. This is really a personal choice.

 

Some internal martial artists compete, in various formats, push hands or grappling tournaments on a lei tai platform, San Shou in a ring, etc.

 

Novell Bell using Xingyi Beng Quan fist in full contact San Shou to get a KO-

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4673281458070965814#

 

Freestyle Push hands competition in China-

 

Tai chi vs. San Da sparring-

 

Also, there is a difference between worrying about what other people are doing or thinking it reflects on you, and competing with other people. I have nothing against testing skills and competing with other clubs, and I have nothing against cross training. Many great martial artists in the past, cross trained in other oarts. Many internal martial artists trained in several arts.

 

 

Comparing all these taiji guys(from your videos) to real professional fighters in MMA is like comparing boy scouts to special forces (taiji guys being the boyscouts).

 

Try to do your "push hands" against a serious valetudo practitioner and you might as well say goodbye to your precious hands because they will separate them from your body regardless how tough your dantien might be.

 

And to the guy that started this thread - this is a lost cause bro, all these "flower power" practitioners will never change their mind cause they are too scared to step into the ring and learn their lesson. That's the main difference between real fighters and philosophers. Real fighters - just fight. Philosophers like Bruce Francis and Max and all these other thunderbolt/yellowbamboo/pendejo/grandmasters - they just write books, meditate (allegedly), create pathetic youtube videos wearing chinese clothes and pursue orgasms over distance..

Edited November 20, 2010 by orb

[Immortal4life]

I am well aware that the videos I posted are not the best practitioners in the world at their art. They may not even all be proffessionals. The point was that poeple were claiming that internal martial artists dont compete, and that is obviously not the case.

 

So yeah, basically you could say the same thing about anyone of any martial art style. You could say, an amateur boxer compared to a proffessional boxer is like a boy scout to a special forces. Everyone would say, yeah no shit, whats your point?

 

Your opinion is still however, only your opinion and speculation, not necessarily truth. If someone is a good fighter, yet has never encountered a particular style and doesnt know how they fight, then even an amateur in that style could give them problems. Your comparison of boy scouts compared to special forces, is pretty ridiculous and a huge exageration. You are actually just as extreme in your views as the people you are criticizing are. You also do not have any clue what the relationship between the dantien and jointlocks is.

 

Now, if you want to talk about thunderbolts and yellow bamboo, that has nothing to do with what Im talking about at least. Im talking only about martial arts, whether chinese, japanese, american, russian, or whatever. But I wont talk about ki blasters and things like that. Others may be willing to discuss such things, I dont have the time though.

Edited November 20, 2010 by Immortal4life

[Sloppy Zhang]

I am well aware that the videos I posted are not the best practitioners in the world at their art. They may not even all be proffessionals. The point was that poeple were claiming that internal martial artists dont compete, and that is obviously not the case.

 

You have to look at the level of competition. Two kids racing each other to the ice cream truck are still "racing" in the same way that Olympic sprinters are "racing". But those two things are WORLDS apart.

 

So yeah, basically you could say the same thing about anyone of any martial art style. You could say, an amateur boxer compared to a proffessional boxer is like a boy scout to a special forces. Everyone would say, yeah no shit, whats your point?

 

The point is that, like my example above, the competition is WORLDS apart. And in martial arts, at least, the level with which you do something plays a big difference.

 

In training, what's better: sporadic, inconsistent practice, or regular, consistent practice? While one could argue that both are "practicing", another could respond with one is practicing more "correctly", and one may even go so far as to argue that the former is not even "practicing" at all, because in their definition, "practicing" may imply regularity and consistency!

 

Push hands is neat as an exercise. But if it remains as some standard, rather than having the practitioner advance to training that involves more actual combat-like scenarios, then, well, it's not really preparing, is it? Sensitivity and other things like that are important, but training individual attributes, while a part of training, cannot alone be the extent of the training.

 

If someone is a good fighter, yet has never encountered a particular style and doesnt know how they fight, then even an amateur in that style could give them problems.

 

So then, are they really a "good fighter"? If your style focusing on fighting while standing, you may be a very good "stand up fighter", if you focus on wrestling, you might be a very good "wrestler". But to what extent are they just all around "good fighters"? Even soldiers, who can branch off into many specialized fields, all go through the same basic training, they are all held to a certain standard of proficiency in a variety of basic skills. Even without specialized training, they can all be considered "good soldiers".

 

Now I should probably say that I have the utmost respect for internal martial arts, their history, its teachers, and the contributions they have made in knowing the human body and developing it through highly specialized training. But there are some obvious failings for the most part (not the entirety, however) in many martial arts communities, though they tend to be more prevalent in internal martial arts, and some other arts which are considered more "traditional".

 

That seems to be the common thread of acceptance without testing. Lack of training in situations that mimic as closely as possible real combat. Martial arts can be found in pretty much all cultures. Boxing and wrestling found in the west can be seen in ancient Greece (though perhaps in different forms than we see today). Yet they continue to grow and innovate and be shaped not theoretically, but PRACTICALLY. In the ring. On the street. Even in military combatives (when my dad was in the navy, he said he learned boxing and judo as part of his basic training)

 

Where is bagua being developed? Tai chi? Where is it being used? Teachers like Novell Bell and Rudy Curry are doing a great job of introducing traditional arts in a modern context. Sifu Rudy had a great video a while back about tai chi heavy bag training. Very interesting stuff. Students and other teachers need to be taking that further, training students so that they can develop APPLICABLE skills, and hopefully, sometime, adapt those skills for usage in professional fighting venues (which would of course different from non-ring versions).

Edited November 20, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[Immortal4life]

Its like I said before, I dont really concern myself with what other people are doing, what the public sees, or what the state of internal martial arts at large or in the general public perception is. Its just a great and interesting topic to me.

 

If we want to make it a contest of what is the ultimate style, internal martial arts masters have been as great as any. Many chinese names have become well known and great. Chen Fa Ke, Lu Song Gao, Yin Fu, Chang Dong Sheng, Yang Lu Chan, Chen Chang Xing, Wan Lai Sheng, Cheng Ting Hua, are only a small amount.

 

I dont even like to comment on other people much. It doesnt really matter to me what people like Blacktaoist, or Frantziz, or anyone is doing. I dont even consider them representatives or lineage holders of the art. What they do only reflects on them and their schools.

[Immortal4life]

Although, here Blacktaoist Novell Bell, the Bagua fighter is actually teaching the MMA fighters-

BLACKTAOIST TEACHES DIPSET RECRUITS (IRON RING BET MMA REALITY SHOW)