When are taobums gonna wake up,if ever?

[Sloppy Zhang]

Hello SZ,

 

I never said that every time someone wants to hurt you, it's with a gun, you're implying something that isn't there, I said, that if one really wants to defend themselves, a gun would be better.

 

It was a deliberate overstatement made sarcastically. Which is why I even put sarcasm tags. I guess sarcasm really is hard to convey over the internet

 

My point is, guns, in many situations, are overkill. Guns are not always used, and there is not always a reason to use guns.

 

In fact, in many areas (at least in the US) there is what's called "necessary use of force". In the event that you are in an altercation and that altercation is being investigated by law, you are going to need to defend the actions you took. If you pull out a glock and blow someone away, you better have a damn good reason. And, depending on your area, unless you have a bunch of licenses and stuff, you might not even have the gun accessible when you need it. And even if you carry it openly, the only bad guys you are going to deter are the small fries- determined attackers, such as those intent on killing you, or those with guns, are going to do so, even if you are carrying your gun.

 

There are an infinite amount of possible situations in which hand to hand self defense would be relevant and applicable.

 

Some things you can't avoid, but most of the time, as someone else pointed out, if you're in a place where you need to fight, you've probably put yourself in that place. The Tao Teh Ching has nothing to do with fighting, not even remotely. Martial Arts came as a result of a need to defend oneself in a time when people were still using spears, swords, and bows and arrows. The people studying these arts were Taoist so they applied Taoist concepts to their martial arts, but that doesn't mean that Lao Tzu ever encouraged martial arts as a means of wu-wei or as an expression of Tao.

 

Has it ever occurred to anybody that the rigid aversion to fighting and combat because it is "not wu-wei" is, in and of itself, an obstruction to wu-wei?

 

If a mentally deranged person encounters you on the street, and possibly starts physically harassing you (keeping in mind that this is a situation that can happen even in a "safe" area even in broad daylight), and you sit there and take it because "fighting is not wu-wei", then you are effectively sitting there stagnating as someone proceeds to do whatever they please with you, as you await whatever fate to befall you.

 

I have a little story about when I first learned wing chun that illustrates this: My new teacher was instructing me on how to use a 45 degree angle of my arm to block a wide arced punched (like a haymaker punch). I had a karate background, so he told me, "not rigid like karate, you wanna be relaxed." So I relaxed my arm. My partner swung, hit my arm, and my open palm smacked me right in the face.

 

My teacher told me, "relax, not limp, firm, but not rigid".

 

Just because you decide that fighting is not your approach to life, does not mean that you just turn into a limp noodle as soon as a physically tense situation starts, and should any fights break out, you just don't do anything.

 

Again, avoidance is most of the battle. In no way do I disagree with what anyone has said on the issue. Most systems of self defense teach avoidance strategies, basic sociology/psychology, mentality of groups, attackers, victims, etc etc. Knowing the neighborhood, knowing the dangerous parts of town, knowing where is safe and unsafe during what times of day will do a lot. But, again, as SFJane illustrated, sometimes it just doesn't happen that you don't get into fights. Maybe part of wu-wei is finding that you've been put into sticky situations, and knowing how to get out of them in one piece, whether you need to adopt the attributes of firm or soft.

 

It just seems rigid that one will not even consider the option that perhaps sometimes fighting happens, and maybe knowing how to fight would be, you know, fitting of a man of the tao..... but I guess not everyone's looking at it like that.

 

I appreciate that you wanted to clarify the mistakes in my argument, but I would recommend that you spend some time clarifying what I've said in the future, before responding. After all my comment would be considered hard, perhaps the best response would've been soft.

 

Aaron

 

I'll try to avoid using sarcasm when speaking with you in the future, then

Edited November 24, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[Aaron]

Hello SZ,

 

The gun issue might be true, but my statement about avoiding conflict is still valid. In the event that a homeless man attempts to assault me, I will run, very fast. If that doesn't work, then I will fight if I adsolutely have to. I'm not saying one shouldn't fight, I'm just saying that if I'm smart the chances this will happen will be slim at best.

 

First I will avoid anyone who looks like they might assault me. Second, I will avoid neighborhoods that I think I might be assaulted in, and last, but most importantly, I will do my best to mind my own bussiness (wu-wei at its finest) and thus reduce my chances of any of this happening dramatically.

 

I'm not even saying studying martial arts is wrong, rather I would recommend that if self-defense is the reason you're learning martial arts, then there are better alternatives that require less time and effort, mace comes to mind.

 

For me, learning martial arts because you feel a need to defend yourself stems from fear, if you are that afraid that you need to learn martial arts, perphaps the healthiest thing to do is examine exactly why you are afraid?

 

My nephew learned Karate for instance, not out of fear, but because he thought it was "awesome". I can understand that reasoning and I never discouraged him from his pursuit. However if he came to me and said "I want to learn Karate because the kids at school are bullying me" I would've said, well that's a poor reason to learn Karate.

 

If one learns to practice the principles of the Tao Teh Ching in their lives then I think there is absolutely no need to learn martial arts for self defense. I'm positive that none of the Sages were martial artists, rather they had an intuitive understanding of how the world worked and how to interact with the world in a way that was harmonious. Perhaps the best thing to do, if you feel the need to defend yourself, is figure out why you need to defend yourself and then how you might avoid having the need to defend yourself. That will save you money on lessons and enrich your life at the same time.

 

(Notice the hard vs soft thing going on here? )

 

Aaron

Edited November 24, 2010 by Twinner

[Sloppy Zhang]

Hello SZ,

 

The gun issue might be true, but my statement about avoiding conflict is still valid. In the event that a homeless man attempts to assault me, I will run, very fast. If that doesn't work, then I will fight if I adsolutely have to. I'm not saying one shouldn't fight, I'm just saying that if I'm smart the chances this will happen will be slim at best.

 

Yes, I agree with all of this.

 

My point is that: in the slim chance that it might happen, do you want something that you believe works, or something that you know works?

 

I want something that I know works.

 

First I will avoid anyone who looks like they might assault me. Second, I will avoid neighborhoods that I think I might be assaulted in, and last, but most importantly, I will do my best to mind my own bussiness (wu-wei at its finest) and thus reduce my chances of any of this happening dramatically.

 

Again, great, I agree 100%

 

I'm not even saying studying martial arts is wrong, rather I would recommend that if self-defense is the reason you're learning martial arts, then there are better alternatives that require less time and effort, mace comes to mind.

 

Again, you've got to justify the use of force. The person you mace, even if they may have been acting sketchy, could sue you for hurting THEM. Competency in martial arts, especially something like bagua, which could be used to deflect and evade, could easily avoid these problems. There will be no issue with necessary use of force, and you can avoid further legal problems.

 

For me, learning martial arts because you feel a need to defend yourself stems from fear, if you are that afraid that you need to learn martial arts, perphaps the healthiest thing to do is examine exactly why you are afraid?

 

Same thing that I said to Gerard- preparation does not mean the presence of fear.

 

Do you keep a flashlight in your home with fresh batteries? Do you have a fire escape plan? Do you lock your door at night?

 

It's not fear, it's precaution. It's knowing the risks, knowing the chances, and even though you know it's slim, you play it safe.

 

My nephew learned Karate for instance, not out of fear, but because he thought it was "awesome". I can understand that reasoning and I never discouraged him from his pursuit. However if he came to me and said "I want to learn Karate because the kids at school are bullying me" I would've said, well that's a poor reason to learn Karate.

 

I learned karate because the kids at school were bullying me. It was a great decision.

 

Bullies are tricky. Going to teachers and parents does not work. But at the same time, kicking the crap out of them doesn't work either. It's kinda the same with necessary use of force- being the good guy sucks. You have to defend yourself, but you also can't hurt the other person, because of legal action (or if you're lofty, you take moral aversion to beating up someone even if one could say they deserve it)

 

However, karate, and other self defense methods, teach DECISIVE techniques which disengage from the harassers, let them know you are physically capable, that you do not want to get into a fight, but if they press it, you know how to defend yourself. You don't have to hurt someone to send a message. Their inability to hurt you can send a message.

 

After I got rid of the bully situation (elementary school), I NEVER had a problem with bullies in my own situation. But do you know what I DID have? Bullies in OTHER peoples' lives. People who were bullies to someone else. So, what do you do then? Mind your own business? I tried that. I watched as some guy got harassed by the same two guys every day. When the two guys were around, I did nothing. When the two were away, I tried to console the kid. It was a big school, I had moved to a new district, there were some rough people in the school, it was middle school, 6th grade, and there were 7th and 8th graders who were more fully developed physically, and some were in gangs. I wanted to help this kid, but I didn't want to get into a physical fight with a gang.

 

Well, that kid decided to hit the gym himself, beat the crap out of one of his bullies, got suspended from school, joined a gang, and I don't know where he went after that.

 

Humans are physical. We live in a physical world. We have physical abilities. We have physical problems. That is a FACT. That is the human condition. What kind of wu-wei would ignore a basic reality of the human condition?

 

I am not advocating that one seeks fights. I am advocating that people are COMPETENT and CAPABLE when a physical fight seeks THEM.

 

If one learns to practice the principles of the Tao Teh Ching in their lives then I think there is absolutely no need to learn martial arts for self defense.

 

You keep thinking that! Then try stepping outside one day.

 

Oh, that's right, I forgot:

 

Without going outside, you may know the whole world.

Without looking through the window, you may see the ways of heaven.

The farther you go, the less you know.

 

Thus the sage knows without travelling;

He sees without looking;

He works without doing.

 

- Tao Te Ching, 47 (translation by Gia-fu Feng and Jane English)

 

 

I'm positive that none of the Sages were martial artists, rather they had an intuitive understanding of how the world worked and how to interact with the world in a way that was harmonious.

 

The legends say Zhang Sanfeng (a.k.a. Sloppy Zhang ) created tai chi (though we can trace it historically to Chen village... mostly) B.K. Frantzis talks about in high levels of bagua that one no longer fights based on what the opponents are doing- but that they just flow with the energy. To an external observer, it looks like a fight.

 

In a taoist magic thread, I believe it was stig (if it is not, my apologies to who it was) who said that the magician just changes with the energy, other people perceive it as magic (wording it like that, maybe it was goldisheavy? again, apologies for my lack of recollection!)

 

So to the sage, he/she may just be walking the circle, flowing with energy.

 

Of course, both of them produce the same physical result: success in a fight.

 

Perhaps the best thing to do, if you feel the need to defend yourself, is figure out why you need to defend yourself and then how you might avoid having the need to defend yourself.

 

There are people in this world who take offense to the fact that you are living, breathing, and in their field of vision.

 

There are people in this world who take offense to the fact that someone else (you may or may not know) is living, breathing, and in their field of vision, as well as your own.

 

They want to end, or seriously disrupt that life.

 

How would YOU deal with that scenario?

Edited November 24, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[Aaron]

Hello Sloppy Zhang,

 

There is absolutely no way to defend against that. Everytime you step out your door something bad might happen. It's not necessarily a mugger, it could be a terrorist or even food poisoning. I tend not to worry about those things so much and just live my life to the best of my ability.

 

In regards to the Sages being martial artists, I'm very much a philisophical Taoist with bits of mysticism thrown in, so I'm not big on alchemy, the i-ching, the immortals, or magic per se. I believe that if the Sages were martial artists, then Lao Tzu would've presented them as such, and in my opinion I don't see that.

 

Again, if you like martial arts or feel the need to study martial arts for any reason, that's fine. My argument is that one should do it for the right reason.

 

I attended Job Corp for two years. I'm not sure if you know about it, but most of the people that are in Job Corp are court mandated or have been kicked out of school and have nowhere else to go. Anyways, I had to navigate a sea or red and blue, crips, bloods, BGD, and posse. I never once got in a fight, because I understood the rules, you stay low, mind your own bussiness and don't pick sides. Now on the other side of the coin, you can't show weakness either. Wu-Wei in that instance was learning when you couldn't back down.

 

There is a way to survive without resorting to violence. And even if you do end up encountering a violent person, there is no certainty that martial arts will defend you, in fact the chances are, if you are killed outside your home, you'll most likely be shot rather than beaten to death (this is conjecture, I don't have stats to prove this, consider it a dramatic exercise). So if I do study martial arts (and I am going to start learning Tai Chi and Qi-Gong) it's not because I want to defend myself (which isn't really something that will happen with either of those anyways), but rather to enrich my understanding of the principles of Tao on another level.

 

Anyways I'm going to bed. It was a pleasure talking with you, have a good night.

 

Aaron

[orb]

Hi Orb,

 

Sounds like you are describing stupid people. Don't buy into people's fantasies of power. The world is full of fools and those who manipulate them. People like that are best avoided, which is what I do.

 

I understand that you've been frustrated in finding someone who can show you what you are looking for. I was lucky enough to receive severe beatings from teachers, which is why I continue to train with them until this day. There is no substitute for hands-on experience.

 

If you want to spar with someone who is competent in IMA, it shouldn't be too hard.

 

Where are you at, I may have a school brother or friend who can help you out.

 

Good luck in your quest!

 

Jess O

Hi Jess,

I am in Virginia Beach, Va

[Sloppy Zhang]

Hello Sloppy Zhang,

 

There is absolutely no way to defend against that. Everytime you step out your door something bad might happen. It's not necessarily a mugger, it could be a terrorist or even food poisoning. I tend not to worry about those things so much and just live my life to the best of my ability.

 

I don't really know what you mean by "there's no way to defend against that". Not sure what you're referring to when you say "that", could you clarify?

 

I agree with you that bad stuff can happen no matter what. But just because you are cognizant of the risk, does not mean you are afraid. Just because you take precautions, does not mean you are living in fear.e

 

In regards to the Sages being martial artists, I'm very much a philisophical Taoist with bits of mysticism thrown in, so I'm not big on alchemy, the i-ching, the immortals, or magic per se. I believe that if the Sages were martial artists, then Lao Tzu would've presented them as such, and in my opinion I don't see that.

 

I added emphasis to the word "philosophical", because that's really what you're talking about. But philosophy alone does nothing- you have to apply it. I think, with the philosophy present in the tao te ching, you can apply it everywhere. Lao Tzu did not say every situation in which one can carry out the philosophy he presented, and if he tried, it would be futile- the potential applications are limitless.

 

One can certainly be in combat yet still be in accordance with the tao te ching. Combat is an aspect of life. It may happen to some more frequently than others. It may not happen to some people at all. But it does not mean combat is going against wu-wei. Rather, combat can be the area in which wu-wei is realized.

 

Again, as Jess O pointed out, not everyone wants to travel the path of the martial arts cultivator. Not everyone is willing to do what Miyamoto Musashi did, fighting duels to the death his entire life before realizing enlightenment (of some kind, at least that's what I hear)

 

But just because you choose not to do that, does not mean that combat should be avoided. What should be avoidance is stagnation. And if avoiding fights is carried to such a degree that it causes stagnation, well, perhaps it's time to examine your beliefs.

 

Again, if you like martial arts or feel the need to study martial arts for any reason, that's fine. My argument is that one should do it for the right reason.

 

I agree that one should study for the right reason. But I also think that one should USE it in the right reason (and sometimes that DOES mean NOT using it)

 

I find it rather irksome that it's such a prevalent belief that, "if you want to learn martial arts to actually be able to fight, then you're doing it wrong, stop seeking fights, that's not the way". I also find it rather irksome that people live under the belief (yes, it is a belief, because it is believed despite many situations which are to the contrary) that, "well we live in a world of guns, learning how to fight is meaningless".

 

I attended Job Corp for two years. I'm not sure if you know about it, but most of the people that are in Job Corp are court mandated or have been kicked out of school and have nowhere else to go. Anyways, I had to navigate a sea or red and blue, crips, bloods, BGD, and posse. I never once got in a fight, because I understood the rules, you stay low, mind your own bussiness and don't pick sides. Now on the other side of the coin, you can't show weakness either. Wu-Wei in that instance was learning when you couldn't back down.

 

That's great. I agree completely. And you know what? Sometimes it works out that way. But it doesn't always work out that way. And it doesn't always work out that way for everyone. Did you ever see a friend of yours attacked? Did you ever see an innocent person who you didn't know attacked? Have you stood on the sidelines and watched as people were victimized, and you wanted to help, but couldn't? Because I have, and it sucks. I do not think that's wu-wei. I don't think that's compassionate. I don't think that is fitting the behavior of a sage, enlightened person, or even just a well developed human being.

 

Keeping your head down is great when that conforms with the situation, when it follows wu-wei to keep your head down. But what if keeping your head down causes harm, leads to stagnation, and corruption? I ask you again: what would YOU do?

 

There is a way to survive without resorting to violence. And even if you do end up encountering a violent person, there is no certainty that martial arts will defend you, in fact the chances are, if you are killed outside your home, you'll most likely be shot rather than beaten to death (this is conjecture, I don't have stats to prove this, consider it a dramatic exercise). So if I do study martial arts (and I am going to start learning Tai Chi and Qi-Gong) it's not because I want to defend myself (which isn't really something that will happen with either of those anyways), but rather to enrich my understanding of the principles of Tao on another level.

 

Again, this is kind of a warped way of looking at things. Just because some people have guns, some people use guns, and some people are shot, does not automatically mean if you are going to be in an encounter, all of your martial arts will be useless because the person will have a gun. That is just not the case. I'm sure if you think a bit, maybe back to what you described at Job Corp, you'd realize how this exaggerated way of looking at things is not doing you much benefit- did every potentially dangerous person you've ever met carry a gun? Did ever potentially dangerous situation that you may have gotten yourself into end with someone shooting you? I think not. Plenty of people injured, if not killed, are done so with weapons such as knives, or other blunt weapons, or are done so with fists. Some maybe are even ganged up on (three or four or maybe five people) and are beaten. Maybe a martial art like bagua, which can take on 8 people at a time, would be quite helpful in those situations......

 

Now would you want a bagua which you KNOW works, or which you BELIEVE works based on what your teacher has told you?

 

See this is what I like about the internal martial arts- you don't HAVE to fight. Their use is not JUST for fighting. As Gerard has pointed out, you can go your whole life and never fight, but still reap benefits, physical, energetic, spiritual, etc, of your practice. And if following wu-wei leads you into a battle, you can follow wu-wei out of a battle.

 

But, you've got to have the tools to do that. And that includes training in a spiritual discipline that actually lets you DO what it is it says it can do, and if it's a martial discipline, actually lets you DO what it says it can do (namely, fight people). If it's both, and you expect to use it as both, you gotta train it as both.

[JessOBrien]

Hi Orb,

 

Great! I know just the guy. http://www.zongwumen.com

 

George Wood is a dedicated internal martial arts teacher, who is entirely focused on the most traditional, old fashioned, non-modern kung fu as you can get.

 

I met him in Taiwan and practiced with him at one of Luo De Xiu's camps in Maryland a while back. So I can vouch for him on a personal level.

 

You have my 100% guarantee that he will satisfy all of your questions about how IMA is supposed to work for fighting purposes. His classes are fun and are a great workout.

 

Hope you get a chance to check him out! This goes for everyone here, George has a lot to offer if you are interested in how traditional IMA is supposed to work.

 

Sincerely,

 

Jess O'Brien

 

Hi Jess,

I am in Virginia Beach, Va

[Aaron]

Hello Sloppy Zhang,

 

I understand what you're saying. I think we're just going around in circles, so perhaps we should accept that we've expressed our views and move on. I accept that some people feel martial arts as a form of self defense is appropriate and there's nothing wrong with that. Now if you accept that some people feel it isn't then we can talk about more important things, like how screwed up Luke must have been when he realized he kissed his sister... wow... talk about scarring. I have doubts that any amount of jedi training will get rid of that.

 

Aaron

[strawdog65]

Hello SZ,

 

The gun issue might be true, but my statement about avoiding conflict is still valid. In the event that a homeless man attempts to assault me, I will run, very fast. If that doesn't work, then I will fight if I adsolutely have to. I'm not saying one shouldn't fight, I'm just saying that if I'm smart the chances this will happen will be slim at best.

 

First I will avoid anyone who looks like they might assault me. Second, I will avoid neighborhoods that I think I might be assaulted in, and last, but most importantly, I will do my best to mind my own bussiness (wu-wei at its finest) and thus reduce my chances of any of this happening dramatically.

 

I'm not even saying studying martial arts is wrong, rather I would recommend that if self-defense is the reason you're learning martial arts, then there are better alternatives that require less time and effort, mace comes to mind.

 

For me, learning martial arts because you feel a need to defend yourself stems from fear, if you are that afraid that you need to learn martial arts, perphaps the healthiest thing to do is examine exactly why you are afraid?

 

My nephew learned Karate for instance, not out of fear, but because he thought it was "awesome". I can understand that reasoning and I never discouraged him from his pursuit. However if he came to me and said "I want to learn Karate because the kids at school are bullying me" I would've said, well that's a poor reason to learn Karate.

 

If one learns to practice the principles of the Tao Teh Ching in their lives then I think there is absolutely no need to learn martial arts for self defense. I'm positive that none of the Sages were martial artists, rather they had an intuitive understanding of how the world worked and how to interact with the world in a way that was harmonious. Perhaps the best thing to do, if you feel the need to defend yourself, is figure out why you need to defend yourself and then how you might avoid having the need to defend yourself. That will save you money on lessons and enrich your life at the same time.

 

(Notice the hard vs soft thing going on here? )

 

Aaron

 

 

Twinner,

 

I am in agreement with you.

 

I've reached an age where I realize a lot of the

man attitude towards fighting and doing so, is really

a major distraction from the True Path of Tao to me.

 

As a younger man I can remember not feeling sure of myself,

and resorting to the kind of behavior to "prove" I was a tough

guy, by fighting.

 

The judgment placed on us as being weak, or unmanly by

seeking to avoid physical violence, is counter to what I have

experienced in life, after I moved beyond that very limited point

of view.

 

True strength is having the ability to control your reactions,

and not give in to feeling the need to "do" anything. Sometimes,

non-action is much more important...and safer.

 

The truth is... we help to create the situations we are immersed in

by the sometimes poor choices we make, way in advance of the events that

then take place at a later time. Action/ reaction, Causality...and

the bullheadedness of young inexperienced men acting on the motivation

of a deep seated fear.

 

I applaud the clarity of what you have said...

 

And believe the Tao Te Ching is the best representation of this

Sagely ability to read the circumstace to such a degree, that avoiding

confrontation and physical violence, becomes a second nature.

 

Peace to you!

[Sloppy Zhang]

Hello Sloppy Zhang,

 

I understand what you're saying. I think we're just going around in circles, so perhaps we should accept that we've expressed our views and move on. I accept that some people feel martial arts as a form of self defense is appropriate and there's nothing wrong with that. Now if you accept that some people feel it isn't then we can talk about more important things, like how screwed up Luke must have been when he realized he kissed his sister... wow... talk about scarring. I have doubts that any amount of jedi training will get rid of that.

 

Aaron

 

No, you have still dodged, on two occasions, an important question that I have asked you:

 

What would YOU do if you were in a situation such that fighting were unavoidable? What would YOU do if you saw someone being attacked, or otherwise physically victimized, and you lived in an area that SFJane described, where police response can take upwards of 20 mins?

 

Would you speak up? Would you step forward? Would you keep your head down? Would you yield?

 

Twinner,

 

I am in agreement with you.

 

I've reached an age where I realize a lot of the

man attitude towards fighting and doing so, is really

a major distraction from the True Path of Tao to me.

 

As a younger man I can remember not feeling sure of myself,

and resorting to the kind of behavior to "prove" I was a tough

guy, by fighting.

 

The judgment placed on us as being weak, or unmanly by

seeking to avoid physical violence, is counter to what I have

experienced in life, after I moved beyond that very limited point

of view.

 

True strength is having the ability to control your reactions,

and not give in to feeling the need to "do" anything. Sometimes,

non-action is much more important...and safer.

 

The truth is... we help to create the situations we are immersed in

by the sometimes poor choices we make, way in advance of the events that

then take place at a later time. Action/ reaction, Causality...and

the bullheadedness of young inexperienced men acting on the motivation

of a deep seated fear.

 

I applaud the clarity of what you have said...

 

And believe the Tao Te Ching is the best representation of this

Sagely ability to read the circumstace to such a degree, that avoiding

confrontation and physical violence, becomes a second nature.

 

Peace to you!

 

I would like to say that I agree with this 100%. Looking back, I can see my own causes in many of the fights I got into. Of course, each of those gave me important lessons. But still, my own fault.

 

I can see how stupid it is, and I agree that many fights are caused by notions of "strength", "weakness", labels, etc etc. Many people think they have to fight, when in reality they do not have so. So many situations are our own doing.

 

Many, but not all.

 

Well, no physical causes. If you believe your karma puts you in situations, then it's your own fault. I don't know how I feel about that. But there are some instances in which you are just not the cause of the situation, other than that you are there to (potentially) be a victim.

[strawdog65]

 

 

 

 

 

I would like to say that I agree with this 100%. Looking back, I can see my own causes in many of the fights I got into. Of course, each of those gave me important lessons. But still, my own fault.

 

I can see how stupid it is, and I agree that many fights are caused by notions of "strength", "weakness", labels, etc etc. Many people think they have to fight, when in reality they do not have so. So many situations are our own doing.

 

Many, but not all.

 

Well, no physical causes. If you believe your karma puts you in situations, then it's your own fault. I don't know how I feel about that. But there are some instances in which you are just not the cause of the situation, other than that you are there to (potentially) be a victim.

 

 

Agreed.

 

When the situation is a matter of survival, and to prevent physical

harm being done to you, and there is no recourse, I believe a

defensive posture is warranted, including physically

defending your person from harm.

 

Using the power of introspection after wards to diagnose what

were the factors that led to what the situation became.

And what could have been done differently to have avoided the

conflict, at an earlier juncture, Seems to be one answer.

 

Foresight to see what will become, or what the fruits of our

actions will bring about...that is a Sagely Way.

 

Peace to You!

[Aaron]

What would YOU do if you were in a situation such that fighting were unavoidable? What would YOU do if you saw someone being attacked, or otherwise physically victimized, and you lived in an area that SFJane described, where police response can take upwards of 20 mins?

 

Would you speak up? Would you step forward? Would you keep your head down? Would you yield?

 

Hello SZ,

 

In response to your question, I would do what I felt needed to be done at that time. I will not, however, learn martial arts under the assumption that I 'might' need to use it in the future. Even then, in the example you've provided, I think a handgun would be much more appropriate anyways.

 

Aaron

Edited November 25, 2010 by Twinner

[Sloppy Zhang]

What would YOU do if you were in a situation such that fighting were unavoidable? What would YOU do if you saw someone being attacked, or otherwise physically victimized, and you lived in an area that SFJane described, where police response can take upwards of 20 mins?

 

Would you speak up? Would you step forward? Would you keep your head down? Would you yield?

 

Hello SZ,

 

In response to your question, I would do what I felt needed to be done at that time. I will not, however, learn martial arts under the assumption that I 'might' need to use it in the future. Even then, in the example you've provided, I think a handgun would be much more appropriate anyways.

 

Aaron

 

Do you have a handgun? How often do you carry it with you? To work? To the grocery store? In your car?

 

Will you actually be able to use it if you need to? Will you even be able to access it if you need to? Would you be able to justify its use, to yourself, to the law, to the friends and family of the "victim" (if you can't prove that it was a reasonable use of force, YOU are now the criminal, and they the victim) should you use it?

 

You don't want to learn martial arts under the assumption that you might need to use it, but then you turn around and use the existence of guns as a support for your argument?

 

No offense, but.... I don't think this is a very well thought out, or supportable position. The existence of guns does not automatically negate the usefulness of actually learning martial arts for practical application. And just because you learn martial arts to actually use them (keeping in mind that you could also be using them for spiritual cultivation, energetic cultivation, etc etc, and don't HAVE to use them for actual use) does not mean you are sending out negative vibes which will attract fights and other forms of violence to you, which will leave you stabbed and shot and lying in the gutter expelling your last breath.

 

Perhaps you could explain a bit more why learning martial arts for actual combat usage is not appropriate?

Edited November 25, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[Spectrum]

Nothing is enough

Edited November 26, 2010 by Spectrum

[Sloppy Zhang]

Have fun playing in traffic

 

As long as you don't emit vibes to attract cars, you'll be fine!

 

By looking both ways, you are subconsciously telling yourself that you'll get hit, thus, you will!

 

Edited November 26, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[Spectrum]

hearnear say go

stand on the lines

crazy Mo keys

physics s peak

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