Are Qigong Forms BS?

[NeiChuan]

I think Qigong which goes on about storing Qi is BS, surely what you want is free flowing Qi letting go of any points of stagnation so it can come and go naturally, not gathering it all and storing it in your body like its a treasure to be preserved and protected

 

I pretty much agree with you.

 

Beside meditation but yeah other then that I say you're completely spot on.

[VCraigP]

I've found descriptions vary widely even within a culture, much less talking across cultures.

 

The meridian/tantien that can be described is not the true meridian/tantien

[VCraigP]

That sort of direct knowing is closer to the truth than any sit-on-your-ass contemplation.

Stig, dude, harsh...I like it.

 

And from GIH" They like the results they get and don't want anything else. I have nothing to say to such people."

You sure have a lot to say for someone who has nothing to say...

 

GIH"So it seems you need a lot of years of hard labor to get to my starting point."

 

I think you guys are about as far apart as one can get here.

 

Stigweard is talking about knowledge based upon experience which from my experience and my reading is a basic principle of Taoist practice.

 

GIH - If it takes us poor Qigong practitioners "years of hard labor to get to your starting point" how did you get to your starting point?? were you born that way?

 

You dont have to answer. :-)

 

Craig

[goldisheavy]

Stig, dude, harsh...I like it.

 

And from GIH" They like the results they get and don't want anything else. I have nothing to say to such people."

You sure have a lot to say for someone who has nothing to say...

 

I qualified it with "to such people."

 

GIH"So it seems you need a lot of years of hard labor to get to my starting point."

 

I think you guys are about as far apart as one can get here.

 

We're pretty far apart, but I think you overestimate the distance. Stig is no dummy, but he's defending his home turf. It's only natural. I am no different.

 

forest asked a good question and it would be a shame if his implication was simply brushed aside.

 

Stigweard is talking about knowledge based upon experience which from my experience and my reading is a basic principle of Taoist practice.

 

GIH - If it takes us poor Qigong practitioners "years of hard labor to get to your starting point" how did you get to your starting point?? were you born that way?

 

Well, not exactly. I was similar yet different when I was born. I am sure I still don't know many things, but I am also sure that most of you here don't know way way more than what I don't know. In a way my aspiration has been the same ever since I was born. So in that sense you could say I was born with it. However aspiration alone doesn't describe me as a person. So obviously I've changed. I've also gone through periods in life where I was distracted from my aspiration, or afraid to follow it at a different point, and so on. So for me it's been a wobbly path which is still consistent over time.

[宁]

Hard to argue with a brain on a stick.

When patience fails, remember, he's just a brain on a stick.

 

[goldisheavy]

Hard to argue with a brain on a stick.

When patience fails, remember, he's just a brain on a stick.

 

 

The brain on a stick is very patient and will beat a monkey any day.

Edited November 22, 2010 by goldisheavy

[Cyril]

Whether or not the degree of benefits are great or small, I would say that if doing the forms don't necessarily bother you or mess up any work and progress that you have done already, then there is no harm in continuing to do Qigong forms for an extended period of time.

 

Just my two pence.

[Birch]

What gives against the monkeys?

 

Anyway, I thought the arguments were interesting. I suppose for now that I'm enjoying the path of not quite being wherever GIH is.

 

Do I need to be smarter than I am? Maybe. I will look to his example when that is required of me. But I think I probably need (at this point) to be more compassionate (towards self and others) so I'm working on that part of it. I think Qi-gong, BS or not, helps with that.

[JohnC]

Flying phoenix qigong is definitely not bullshit. Very beneficial over here.

 

John

[ralis]

Did you have a point when mentioning Valerie Hunt?

 

I hadn't heard of her, so I took a look:

 

 

 

 

 

Oh, and she studied acupuncture.

 

What I meant by nonlinear is that effects of Qigong practices are not easy to predict. There exists a continuum of possible outcomes from Qigong practice and various outcomes are individual and may be cultural in nature.

[Birch]

What I meant by nonlinear is that effects of Qigong practices are not easy to predict. There exists a continuum of possible outcomes from Qigong practice and various outcomes are individual and may be cultural in nature.

 

 

Oh, that was GOOD and very noncommittal all at the same time.

 

I think/believe from doing some of it that there might be some outcomes that are "similar" in terms of effects with all qi-gong practices. I also believe from contemplating (so give that less credence) that certain forms may align themselves with specific cultural thingamajigs (sp?) and as such have differing impacts on the cultural continuum if/when practiced elsewhere by other people.

 

And would you believe I can't be bothered to write the list I guess it's because writing that list seems both very complicated and very simple all at the same time.

[goldisheavy]

Flying phoenix qigong is definitely not bullshit. Very beneficial over here.

 

John

 

I think qigong is as effective as people say it is. I don't think anyone is arguing against effectiveness. The idea of bullshit comes in two forms:

 

1. Some people think that the mind is bullshit. So for example, until recently, most scientists thought of placebo as something negative and unwanted because the mind is unreal and the physical is real in the traditional scientific materialistic mindset. So if something happens due to mind, it's instantly labeled as bullshit.

 

2. Some people think that the mind is not exactly bullshit, but they still think that there exist various subtle structures. So in a way these people create a reality that's like physical but subtler, but insofar it obeys various laws of manifestation, it is physical-like. That's the reality of the meridians, chi, and so forth. Then there are other people who believe the mind is all there is. Thus every structure is ultimately mind-made. This is especially true of the subtle structures that qigong introduces. So from that POV the idea of firm and inherently existing physical-like structures is bullshit.

 

But in both cases 1 and 2 we admit to effects. So for example, a placebo effect is a real effect and I don't know any scientist who denies that, even those who think of placebo in dismissive terms. When a qigong practitioner uses qi to warm up the body, there is also a real effect that can be measured. So there are real effects which no one that I know of doubts. The question is mostly, "is this the only way?" or "are there an infinity of ways to achieve this and does tradition lock us into a box of sorts?"

 

If you understand that everything is mind, then yes, tradition is a box or a recipe. It has value, but it does limit, and furthermore, what you learn on your own can be better than the boxes or recipes others will teach you. That's the whole point of discussion to my mind. If you understand the principles of manifestation, then all you need to do to produce these effects is practice. You don't need to go around the world looking for a teacher who will then sell you a very expensive limitation. Of course people have no faith in their own abilities and they are deathly afraid of making mistakes, so most everyone wants to outsource personal learning, and basically be spoon-fed by someone else, to avoid mistakes, etc.

 

Mistakes are worth it.

[Birch]

Thank you Mr GIH. Hit some of my (current) ideas nicely. You wouldn't be softening yer approach would you?

 

I throw ya a shri-yantra but couldn't find it.

[goldisheavy]

Thank you Mr GIH. Hit some of my (current) ideas nicely. You wouldn't be softening yer approach would you?

 

It's possible.

 

It was never my goal to be harsh in order to enjoy pissing people off. I like to question certain assumptions and I also don't like to beat around the bush. This is sometimes perceived as me being harsh.

 

And it's also possible that I'm just getting tired or older or both and I'm not as good as I used to be.

 

I throw ya a shri-yantra but couldn't find it.

 

I appreciate your suggestion.

[unmike]

@ simply puzzled

The way some patterns seem to "wear a groove into reality" that others can easily slip into is profound, both in implication and linguistic formulation. The Tao is definitely groovy.

 

@GIH/forestofemptiness

A student of the Indian system will learn about chakras and nadis, a student of the Chinese system will learn about meridians, dantiens, and qi, and a student of the Tibetan system will learn about rlung, drops, and subtle winds.

 

A student of reality will learn about all those systems and how well they usually correspond to something subtle that's going on. Meridians, for example, are very precisely correlated with the trains of myofascial webbing that give our major pull lines expression. Practical, simple, and elaborated scientifically. The dantien is somewhat more complex, but no less scientifically grounded. Bare facts: the abdomen is where all of these trains come together, permeating organs and flexional apparatus alike in a densely packed mesh. Collagen fibers, when stretched appropriately, shear, resulting in a piezoelectric charge. These fibers are cleaned regularly by osteoclasts; uncharged and damaged fibers are culled. Osteoblasts come and lay down new fibers over the cleared space. With sustained, gradual, daily practice, one can literally build a dynamo in one's abdomen. Understanding how potential difference can induce a current and how breathing both actualizes a change in quantity of nearby free electrons via O2 (thank you superefficient fractal bronchi!) and deforms the current field/generator gives one a better understanding of the processes involved.

 

Switching systems, nadis are supposedly channels of light carved through our beings. What of the fact that UV light is constantly emitted by every living cell? A convenient fios network, it seems, would be just about the called for mechanism...

 

The more interesting things I stumble across in my "modern" research, the more esteem I have for the ancients that did it the hard way.

 

Next up, scalar waves!

[Birch]

Mr Unmike, that was simply wonderful! Thank you

 

 

See? I said there were a bunch of awesome people on here :-)

[idquest]

What of the fact that UV light is constantly emitted by every living cell? A convenient fios network, it seems, would be just about the called for mechanism...

 

The more interesting things I stumble across in my "modern" research, the more esteem I have for the ancients that did it the hard way.

 

Next up, scalar waves!

 

Is it why we see deep violet light when we meditate?

 

Can't wait for scalars...

[Birch]

"Is it why we see deep violet light when we meditate?"

 

Very cool. Ever get that "black" which is, uh, blacker than black?

 

Or the little blue pinpoint light thing?

 

I love the "scientific" double-up with this stuff. Sometimes I feel the poetry gets lost when we describe things in such terms but then I'll look a a photograph of a galaxy or have a conversation with a cat and the poetry comes rushing back

[Kundaolinyi]

I'm probably not going to make any more friends with what I'm about to say, than the amount I'm going to make by bumping up an old thread (sorry) ... but..

 

This topic, and a lot of the responses, goes to show a HUGE problem with the state of qigong schools out there right now. Everyone gets so caught up with feeling and dealing with all these metaphysical energies without grounding their skills into their physical bodies.

 

Except for the most talented people, there isn't much point in trying to manipulate this 'magical qi stuff' until you've actually bothered to gain proficiency with some of the more basic physical energies like the 'ground reaction force', 'tendon torque', and the 'pressure from the breath'.

 

Anyone who's spent enough time figuring out how to drive the internal pressure of the breath (I'm talking about pounds per square inches here) downward, knows that the organs get in the way. So what do you do? You use the pressure of your breath and posture to align the organs (which are suspended in their fascia sheath) so that the breath's pressure goes BETWEEN them, which when done correctly PHYSICALLY OPENS THE DANTIAN. Postural mechanics are a must here.

 

With the organs shifted, and Dantian (space between the organs) open and pressurized, the passage of the body's weight travels to the ground effectively, and the resulting impact forces is received back into the body. At this point, the tendons (including the diaphragm's) can be torqued, with the resulting tension being channeled into the internal energy system, rather than creating tense spots in the body. This is how the 'tendon changing classics' bother with tendons to begin with. All the forms, semen retention, and hitting with reeds, will only do so much without actually grounding your progress with physical skill.

 

The Dantian, and all of the meridians physically exist. Well, that's not entirely accurate. They're not like a vein or a nerve. They're like a hole or crevasse BETWEEN THE PHYSICAL TISSUES IN THE BODY. When the Dantian is pressurized by the breath, they adjust as a whole system like an array of ballasts.

 

 

 

Okay, so the point here is that the forms in qigong all open, close, pressurize, or depressurize the meridians (like ballasts) in specific ways that have a physical effect on which organs are open or shut off to the dantian, and in what ratio. The forms effect the body's internal dynamic from the outside-in. Each organ has a specific 'element' assigned to it, which determines quality of physical energy cultivated, chemical-emotional effect, and its psychosomatic relationship with the mind. Each form has an effect on these things, but only to a small degree if the person hasn't developed skill in this system.

 

None of this requires getting into any metaphysical mumbo stuff. You don't need to sit there and ponder "does x exist or not", as if it were a philosophical dilemma. If you don't know what you're doing, then it's no surprise that you wouldn't be sure.

 

 

Neither English, nor any other language exists other than as a mental construct--- it is a made up pattern that we are able to learn. English does not exist apart from or until the arising of English speakers. With qigong, the idea is that the meridians and dan tiens exist independently.

 

Your points here are well thought out, but lack some understanding.

 

The English Language IS a mental construct, but the brain has specific physical structures that handle language, and those structures exist with or without learning the language. You are confusing Taomeow's analogy by equating English to the meridians and dantians, when actually, English is the qigong forms. The Dantians and meridians are more like the language center of the brain, which exists whether you use it or not.

 

Taomeow's post was spot on to begin with.

Edited February 21, 2013 by Kundaolinyi