Are Qigong Forms BS?

[forestofclarity]

I've been wondering lately if qigong forms aren't all BS. Perhaps the trick is not so much the form, but the relaxation and non-attachment that comes with practice, along with cultivating positive feelings and mindfulness.

 

Of course, I am no expert in these areas, so I thought I'd lay this out to the experts. What do you think?

[Birch]

Wouldn't "qi-gong" within a form be considered "tai-chi"? Or are you referring to "non-physical" forms that nevertheless remain "patterns" ? I'm guessing (and I'm no expert, I just do stuff). I don't think forms are BS because in many cases (IME) you can't do a gong without an impact on form.

 

Sorry, waffling a bit.

[goldisheavy]

It depends. They are deceptive in that when qigon is taught, you are often taught to take what arises as a result of practice literally, as if it is actually existing. So you learn good things along with delusion. The good thing you learn is the relationship between intent and phenomena. You learn how to manifest phenomena, and that's both useful and illustrative of the true nature of phenomena when approached contemplatively. The bad thing is that most qigong artists don't teach contemplation. They just say, "Do this until you feel like this, and repeat this 100 times, then do this and that, and you'll feel like that." So they teach you how to manipulate your experience. The good thing is that you learn how to use your intent in practice. The bad thing is that you don't get wiser about phenomena and you still follow things as if they are real.

 

So that's my take on it. It's a combination of bullshit and non-bullshit mixed together.

 

The dogmas of qigong are definitely bullshit. For example, meridians, dan tien, all that is bullshit. It's all optional and mind-made. You can put your energy storage point into any location. It doesn't have to be dan tien. You can even put it outside the body, or even inside some abstract space that doesn't coincide with physical space at all. It doesn't have to be a point. It doesn't have to be any shape. It can be a square or a pyramid or a sphere. The very idea of "storage" is bullshit to begin with. So all the configurations, locations, directions of flows, all that is cultural, conditional and individual. People cannot accept such shifty things as real though, so they try to physicalize them by making these things dogmatically solid, in other words, dan tien is always in the same place in the stomach, etc. This gives things an aura of physicality, solidity and then people can believe in these things given their delusions which expect solidity everywhere.

 

The mind is truly flexible and adaptable, but because people are hung up on solidity they can't take advantage of that flexibility.

Edited November 20, 2010 by goldisheavy

[Maddie]

 

The dogmas of qigong are definitely bullshit. For example, meridians, dan tien, all that is bullshit. It's all optional and mind-made. You can put your energy storage point into any location. It doesn't have to be dan tien. You can even put it outside the body, or even inside some abstract space that doesn't coincide with physical space at all. It doesn't have to be a point. It doesn't have to be any shape. It can be a square or a pyramid or a sphere. The very idea of "storage" is bullshit to begin with. So all the configurations, locations, directions of flows, all that is cultural, conditional and individual. People cannot accept such shifty things as real though, so they try to physicalize them by making these things dogmatically solid, in other words, dan tien is always in the same place in the stomach, etc. This gives things an aura of physicality, solidity and then people can believe in these things given their delusions which expect solidity everywhere.

 

The mind is truly flexible and adaptable, but because people are hung up on solidity they can't take advantage of that flexibility.

 

Just wondering what you base this upon? what is your source?

[Taomeow]

I've been wondering lately if qigong forms aren't all BS. Perhaps the trick is not so much the form, but the relaxation and non-attachment that comes with practice, along with cultivating positive feelings and mindfulness.

 

Of course, I am no expert in these areas, so I thought I'd lay this out to the experts. What do you think?

 

Qigong forms are like musical pieces. Everybody uses the same notes to make them into the "form" of a Mozart symphony, a military march, or a pop hit designed to sell to, e.g., an audience of 14-17-year-olds.

Is all music BS?..

[Stigweard]

It depends. They are deceptive in that when qigon is taught, you are often taught to take what arises as a result of practice literally, as if it is actually existing. So you learn good things along with delusion. The good thing you learn is the relationship between intent and phenomena. You learn how to manifest phenomena, and that's both useful and illustrative of the true nature of phenomena when approached contemplatively. The bad thing is that most qigong artists don't teach contemplation. They just say, "Do this until you feel like this, and repeat this 100 times, then do this and that, and you'll feel like that." So they teach you how to manipulate your experience. The good thing is that you learn how to use your intent in practice. The bad thing is that you don't get wiser about phenomena and you still follow things as if they are real.

 

So that's my take on it. It's a combination of bullshit and non-bullshit mixed together.

 

The dogmas of qigong are definitely bullshit. For example, meridians, dan tien, all that is bullshit. It's all optional and mind-made. You can put your energy storage point into any location. It doesn't have to be dan tien. You can even put it outside the body, or even inside some abstract space that doesn't coincide with physical space at all. It doesn't have to be a point. It doesn't have to be any shape. It can be a square or a pyramid or a sphere. The very idea of "storage" is bullshit to begin with. So all the configurations, locations, directions of flows, all that is cultural, conditional and individual. People cannot accept such shifty things as real though, so they try to physicalize them by making these things dogmatically solid, in other words, dan tien is always in the same place in the stomach, etc. This gives things an aura of physicality, solidity and then people can believe in these things given their delusions which expect solidity everywhere.

 

The mind is truly flexible and adaptable, but because people are hung up on solidity they can't take advantage of that flexibility.

 

Of course we have to keep in mind GIH that yours is the opinion of someone who self-admittedly hasn't ever really trained in qigong for a proper length of time (i.e. 3+ years continuous years).

 

Regardless of conceptual theories, there is definitely something to be said for trusting the process and keep practicing until the results are self-apparent. Fortunately the qigong I train (Ba Bao) gives immediate benefits to strength and flexibility whilst you develop the sensitivity to become aware of the "other stuff".

 

[RiverSnake]

I have been practicing Chi-Kung for a couple of months now and have felt the benefits.

[Cloudhand]

You can't have Tai Chi without knowledge of Qigong. Otherwise you are just moving or exercising. The goal is the unite with the cosmic energy, otherwise you are not getting all the benifits from your Tai Chi. Move Slowly, Cloudhand

[Sloppy Zhang]

Assuming for the moment that you are creating a reality in which meridians, dantiens and other energy structures exist, and that you can manipulate them....

 

I'd say yes, certain forms have specific targets. For example, B.K. Frantzis' Dragon and Tiger Medical Qigong form targets specific pathways. Are there probably other forms of energizing the same pathways? Sure. Is there most likely a way you can energize these even without going through a routine? Sure. Can you spontaneously discover these pathways and energize them yourself? Most likely.

 

But that doesn't necessarily put it in the realm of "bs", at least in my humble opinion.

[Aetherous]

For example, meridians, dan tien, all that is bullshit. It's all optional and mind-made.

 

Totally disagree.

[Taomeow]

For example, meridians, dan tien, all that is bullshit.

 

Thank you, Captain Dantienless! All those Chinese barbarians with their six-thousand-year-old BS have been waiting for you to set them straight. And all their ignorant Western disciples like me are ever so... um, confused?.. No, not that... Abused?.. Well, long as you're not the FDA, no, not really... Amused?.. Bingo!

[pilot]

a question worth applying repeatedly and to more than just qigong.

in my limited experience, I agree with what basic principles I came across (breath, Yi, Qi, state of Shen, relaxing, posture) and the order in which they happen to operate efficiently. so in that limited sense, their form is valid.

 

some have martial application, others apparently employ the vessels and cavities inherent in the human form towards specific ends. I imagine they also illustrate basic principles of nature. to this and among different styles and appropriateness, I too wonder.

[Cloudhand]

Anyone here who has brought the energy through the chakras to the crown of the head will know chi is a real force and will follow definitely patterns in the body, call it what you will meridians or lines of force it is real. Move Slowly, Cloudhand

[Maddie]

Thank you, Captain Dantienless! All those Chinese barbarians with their six-thousand-year-old BS have been waiting for you to set them straight. And all their ignorant Western disciples like me are ever so... um, confused?.. No, not that... Abused?.. Well, long as you're not the FDA, no, not really... Amused?.. Bingo!

 

Yea thats exactely what I was thinking, all this stuff developed over thousands of years due to diligent research, practice and study, its not abitrary, rather its a highly developed system based upon lots of work.

[Cloudhand]

Yea thats exactely what I was thinking, all this stuff developed over thousands of years due to diligent research, practice and study, its not abitrary, rather its a highly developed system based upon lots of work.

 

 

You got it bro. Cloud

[Aetherous]

Thank you, Captain Dantienless! All those Chinese barbarians with their six-thousand-year-old BS have been waiting for you to set them straight. And all their ignorant Western disciples like me are ever so... um, confused?.. No, not that... Abused?.. Well, long as you're not the FDA, no, not really... Amused?.. Bingo!

 

Not to mention all of the other traditions around the globe that utilize very similar processes in the body.

[Immortal4life]

lol

Edited November 20, 2010 by Immortal4life

[dawei]

Hey Forest,

 

It would be good to hear you explain what is BS about forms. I can imagine but shouldn't speak for you. I can only speak for myself. I practice Tai Ji and Qigong, and Medical Qigong to boot. I'll say this; It's all BS. I'll explain my use of BS.

 

It's just all words, phrases, methods, practices, tradition, etc. Whether you raise your right hand upward or push your left foot at a 45 degrees doesn't really matter. In fact, you can invent your own forms and find that they are as (or dare I say more) effective. You can walk or sit and produce some effect. But I think your mind (and to more degree your intention) must be present.

 

I fly often and at 33,000 ft it is irresistible to manipulate the Qi. I have done it often. But on one flight a lady next to me began to talk about her limited experience with Qi and wondered if it wasn't all BS. I asked her to give me her hand. Then while holding it, I told her to pass her other hand's index finger in a circle around that hand [that I was holding]. WIthin a few seconds she said she could feel it "move inside her hand". I asked her what she can make of that... then I told her to let me pass MY hand over HER hand in a circle. After a few seconds she was surprised and felt MY hand pass over hers. But I asked her: what is it you really feel? What is truly causing that sensation?

 

Here is the bottom line, as far as I am concerned. What is it you want to feel or produce or practice or achieve? It all depends on you and your internally connection. If you only want to feel it in your hand, that can be done. If you want to feel it within some spot or meridian, that can be done. If you want to feel some deep connection to the spiritual that can be done. Each one requires something. Some may require a deep dedication to produce that. If you truly want that, you then truly need to commit to what it takes.

 

I sometimes think we have to follow such programming since we have lost the 'way'. I think that is true on some degree. But many have died over the many thousands of years to get to the highest levels. You can know that to get to the most simple levels only requires to breath and put your mind on it. Those two are the dynamic duet. Your mileage may vary.

[Non]

well al the forms are made up. at least the more modern ones.

[Trunk]

.. if qigong forms aren't all BS. Perhaps the trick is not so much the form, but the relaxation and non-attachment that comes with practice, ..

 

It's fun & productive to jam free-form, but...

 

The stuff I learned in shing-yi, shape and movement of body, was specific and produced real power and there was no way I'd've ever guessed nor experimented my way into those specific exercises w/ principles intact. And, corrections by teacher along the way as my body gained capacity to address each exercise more deeply, w/ out that - lost in the woods. There are real systems out there.

 

Even my current experimentations (made up stuff), both in movement and stillness practices, are more informed by principle than they were years ago - and are correspondingly more effective.

[forestofclarity]

Yes, Dawei, this is what I was getting at.

 

It's just all words, phrases, methods, practices, tradition, etc. Whether you raise your right hand upward or push your left foot at a 45 degrees doesn't really matter. In fact, you can invent your own forms and find that they are as (or dare I say more) effective. You can walk or sit and produce some effect. But I think your mind (and to more degree your intention) must be present.

[forestofclarity]

To flesh out the question a little further (keeping in mind this is a question, and not a statement):

 

Is it possible that the results of qigong are a result of the practicioner's mind rather than the qigong itself, and the qigong forms simply facilitate the mind's creation of these?

 

By way of a story: perhaps there was an ancient Taoist sage who learned the benefits of non-attachment, cultivating positive feelings, mindfulness, and acceptance. Now he goes and tells people they should do these things, but they all scratch their heads. So he says, "Here is an ancient Tiger-Warrior form. If you do this, then these feelings will arise." People who believe this take the form and achieve the result. Over time, people ascribe a certain power to the form.

 

In fact, there is a famous story involving Levi-Straus* (an anthropologist) who had his cynical assistance learn how to cure people by hiding objects in his mouth and sucking them out. He discovered that the people were cured, even though his assistant didn't believe.

 

To take it further, perhaps dan tiens, meridians, nadis, chakras, and all of this are created by the practitioner, rather than discovered. Accordingly, one who learns according to yoga will discover the nadis and chakras of yoga. One who learns qigong will discover dan tiens and meridians.

 

Of course, all this may require an adjustment to the view that mind is simply an epiphenomenon of matter.

 

 

* I remember it was Levi-Strauss, but I may be misremembering.

[Apech]

 

 

* I remember it was Levi-Strauss, but I may be misremembering.

 

he has an accent over the 'e' - don't know how to do that on here - he was French ... and is not the same as Levi Strauss of the 501 Jeans.

[Taomeow]

To flesh out the question a little further (keeping in mind this is a question, and not a statement):

 

To take it further, perhaps dan tiens, meridians, nadis, chakras, and all of this are created by the practitioner, rather than discovered. Accordingly, one who learns according to yoga will discover the nadis and chakras of yoga. One who learns qigong will discover dan tiens and meridians.

 

Functions are not limited to gross anatomical organs. Instead many of them (many thousands of them, to be precise) can be the outcome of particular configurations of processes taking place within or between organs.

 

E.g., your ability to read in English is the outcome of a particular configuration of neuronal connections established between your eyes, your visual cortex, and your neocortex. This stable and specific configuration (which won't work for reading Sanskrit though) is the outcome of training imposed on a trainable system open to molding into a unit of meaningful and useful function. So your ability to read is a co-creation between your innate biological machinery and the specific shaping of its configuration achieved by learning.

 

You have many organs and systems that can sprout such stable and specific networks of connections amounting to a new organ-function in response to training. If you look at the totality of neuronal links established between your brain, your spinal nerves, the nerves that feed into your muscles and joints, and the ones carrying signals back from muscles and joints to the brain, you will find a stable and specific configuration whose expertise is to know how to ride a bicycle. You created it by learning, it wasn't there until you did; what was there, however, was the opennes of the system to such training.

 

You don't have such opennes to learn how to fly by flapping your arms though. The biological machinery isn't there, so learning would be wasted and would fail to create a new organ-system-function.

 

Even more dramatically than not having the machinery, you have machinery for canceling the machinery you do have. E.g., if you take a prescription antidepressant, which is comprised of designer molecules not encountered in nature (the only kind patentable), your brain doesn't have the machinery to either process these molecules or create a new organ for processing these molecules, so it will respond by shutting down some of its normal functions ("I can't do anything with this, I better quit.") So this particular stimulus is creating a new function, that of suppressing and shutting down a few (or many) of the existing, established ones. Your brain is not "naturally" shut-downable by designer molecules, but it can be trained in response to this stimulus. Similarly, introducing ideation of particular type will accomplish the same thing -- shutting down some of the normal functions. E.g., if you firmly establish (install) the idea "there is no such thing as a dantien," your system will respond by shutting down instead of activating the dantien function.

 

Bottom line:

 

a dantien is a potential that you either activate or not, much like reading or riding a bicycle is a potential you either activate or not;

 

a meridian is a function independent of your efforts to activate it, which however can become responsive to training and no longer run on autopilot. Similarly to breathing, a function that has double controls, the unconscious ones in the lower brain (so you breathe whether you mean to or not) and the conscious ones in the neocortex (which allow you to consciously regulate your breathing, change it, shape it, train it a particular way), meridians have triple controls -- involuntary electrochemical (measured and "proved" in extensive studies in several countries outside the anglosphere), involuntary sensory, and voluntary volitional. "Volition," a respectable player in such fields as, e.g., cognitive neuroscience, is the "scientific term" for what taoists or shamans might call "intent." It is a necessary constituent of learning to shape your system a particular way (e.g., if you refuse to learn Sanskrit, if your volition goes against it, you will never establish the function) but not a sufficient one (adequate training plus the opennes of the system to this type of training being two other constituents.)

[宁]

TM don't you love it when the right question appears?