Your enlightenment in this life is assured!

[xabir2005]

Assurance? Yes, Nirvana is assurable. This is Buddha's good news. Just believe (have right view of reality) and be saved. (but of course, don't stop at belief, go and actually see it for yourself!!)

 

Jokes aside, I'm not trying to convert anyone to Buddhism. I'm just saying have the right view of reality (which isn't contradictory to Taoism as far as I am aware of), and your awakening is assured.

 

Something I posted in my own forum but sharing it here...

 

-------------

 

To stress the importance of right view... I would like to quote what the Buddha said.

 

 

 

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/stream2.html#arising

 

...."Form... Feeling... Perception... Fabrications... Consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

 

"One who has conviction & belief that these phenomena are this way is called a faith-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

 

"One who, after pondering with a modicum of discernment, has accepted that these phenomena are this way is called a Dhamma-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

 

"One who knows and sees that these phenomena are this way is called a stream-winner, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening."...

 

 

 

On the topic of Right View, it is said that one who realizes the nature of dharma is said to enter the stream, become a stream enterer, destined to attain Nirvana/Arhatship in no more than 7 lifetimes (or in this lifetime if he works hard for it). He will never again enter into the lower realms. He no longer has self-view (he realizes Anatta), he no longer has doubts about Dharma, he no longer pays attention to meaningless rituals.

 

 

However, much is also said about someone who has not attained stream entry, but simply a 'faith-follower' having the Right View of the nature of dharmas - as being Anicca, Dukkha, and Anatta - Impermanent, Unsatisfactory, and Non-self. And having the right view of Dependent Origination/Emptiness.

 

That is, if you understand, have conviction and belief that the nature of dharma is so... You will not die until you attain stream entry.

 

Therefore, by simply having the right view you have already gone half the way of your path. This is why Right View is the 1st of the Noble 8 Fold Path.

 

By having the Right View, your stream entry, your awakening into the nature of dharma is assured this lifetime and thereby your Nirvana is assured to happen in no more than 7 lives.

 

 

 

This is the importance of having the right view.

 

On another note... I have seen many (really, a lot) of very sincere practitioners who practice very hard... much harder than me. Unfortunately, because they do not have the right view, they get stuck at a certain stage of experience or realization.

 

For example, they may get stuck at the 'I AM' level of realization. Why? Because there is no one to point them out the right view... So no matter how hard they practice, they cannot go pass that stage... even if they practice for decades or even after they pass away.

 

Whereas, for me, and many others... who are not very diligent practitioners, but somehow due to having been instilled the right view, certain conditions arise and the nature of Dharma is seen very quickly. In a matter of few years, it can be done.

Never think you can skip 'right view' and just practice and hope that one day you will simply realize things by yourself (a very common mistake, I believe)... cuz, no matter how hard you practice, you still probably won't realize the right view by yourself. You need to understand and have conviction in the Buddha's teachings.

 

 

 

So please... if there is any doubts or things you don't understand about the view of Dharma, please get it sorted out, please have the right view.

 

If you don't understand Anatta (no-self), or Emptiness, please ask.

 

There are experienced moderators... like Thusness and Simpo who can point them out to you...

 

It is really not difficult to grasp this... so make the effort, it is definitely worthwhile.

 

Don't you want to be assured enlightenment in this life? Yes, this assurance is possible. You just need to have the right view. (Of course, right practice, i.e. direct contemplation, is also important as a follow up to attain enlightenment, but even right view alone ensures your enlightenment within this life)

 

 

 

I am especially indebted to Thusness who pointed out to me the 'right view'... otherwise I will probably get lost in certain phase in my practice like I mentioned earlier.

 

.........

 

In the Suttas, many people attain stream entry after listening to a single discourse by the Buddha (and often happens to be their FIRST discourse they hear from Buddha). This is how powerful 'right view' is... once it gets into you, a shift starts to happen. It can happen immediately... or maybe gradual... but by the end of this life, you will certainly realize the nature of dharma.

 

Thought I might also share my thoughts on 'why' right view assures enlightenment...

 

 

 

MT says

k

I heard even theory knowelege will lead to direct experience

 

 

AEN says

it doesnt 'lead' but it serves as a very important condition...

and once u understand dharma, u will be propelled and inclined towards contemplating them

which leads to insight

 

MT says

comtemplate means think n analyse abt it like four noble truths?

AEM says

not just think and analyse

observe, look at these facts in your direct experience

like the way its taught in mindfulness in plain english

MT says

oh

AEN says

yeah

some thoughts are also needed... but the thoughts are just reminders to look at the bare fact of reality

like 'there is no you'... look... is this so?

 

 

 

 

 

p.s. Thusness and Simpo probably don't view this forum often, and neither do I because I am serving the army, but nevertheless I will try to reply if there is anything asked. I don't wish that this thread degenerate into unconstructive arguments... so please try to keep it constructive, a place to understand the dharma seals, D.O., etc.

Edited November 20, 2010 by xabir2005

[manitou]

For example, they may get stuck at the 'I AM' level of realization. Why? Because there is no one to point them out the right view... So no matter how hard they practice, they cannot go pass that stage... even if they practice for decades or even after they pass away.

 

 

I love the discussion about the 'right view'. I think this equates to the view we're left with after a lot of inner work has been done. A person can't have a right view when they're meditating and then go out and pillage and plunder between meditations. It is a totally different perspective and way of looking at the world, one which involves less judgement and more loving.

 

But I take a little exception to your minimizing the I AM consciousness. Personally, the I AM consciousness came after many years of cultivating the right view. (It also meshed after repeatedly reading The Impersonal Life, by Anonymous). How can you possibly say that the I AM consciousness is a springboard for a right view consciousness?

 

I AM. What does that really mean? It merely means We Are God. It is our collective consciousness that is the moving force in the world, perhaps in the universe. There is no Being out there directing traffic. The I AM consciousness is very much the way of the Tao. It presupposes that we have access to the electromagnetics and physical attributes of the earth in order to create and affect the changes we want, whether in healing or situational resolution. In order to achieve use of these forces we must align ourselves with the 'right view'. If you are finding other views in an out-of-body way through your meditations, then perhaps these can be equated to shamanic journeys of the mind which touch on the physical as well. Your structural assembly about how It can be reached is valid for your mindset and your background. You may believe you can 'see' how the rest of us are laboring in the lower planes because of your perspective. But please understand that we all believe we are sitting on a perch that is the 'right view'...that's the nature of our egos. Please consider that true enlightment may just be crawling through and transcending all the structure.

[strawdog65]

 

 

You may believe you can 'see' how the rest of us are laboring in the lower planes because of your perspective. But please understand that we all believe we are sitting on a perch that is the 'right view'...that's the nature of our egos. Please consider that true enlightment may just be crawling through and transcending all the structure.

 

 

Manitou hello,

 

Well said...even better communicated.

This is very much my own perspective of "enlightenment".

My perch is an odd one...Other than the philosophical perspective of

Taoism, I have always been suspicious any one/group claiming to have

the answers to why all that is, IS.

 

When the simple answer is just BE.

 

Any answers after that, come from our perception of opening and

letting in what we were too busy to perceive before.

[xabir2005]

I love the discussion about the 'right view'. I think this equates to the view we're left with after a lot of inner work has been done.

I think what you're saying transcendent view gained after awakening... but before awakening, one can start developing the right view by right understanding and conviction - and this is also very important prior to realization. However, once awakening (directly seeing the nature of reality) happens... there is no more grasping on conceptual view, it is just directly seen and experienced.

A person can't have a right view when they're meditating and then go out and pillage and plunder between meditations. It is a totally different perspective and way of looking at the world, one which involves less judgement and more loving.

Totally agreed. The view is indeed transformative.

But I take a little exception to your minimizing the I AM consciousness.

I do not minimize this realization as I personally have went through this phase, and took around two years of self-inquiring to get to (and the insight I have documented in the document 'Who am I' at http://www.box.net/shared/3verpiao63 ). In fact, it is a profound insight into the luminous essence of Being/Awareness. This insight is not negated in the later phases...

 

Personally, the I AM consciousness came after many years of cultivating the right view. (It also meshed after repeatedly reading The Impersonal Life, by Anonymous). How can you possibly say that the I AM consciousness is a springboard for a right view consciousness?

I AM is this Pure Presence/Pure Being/Pure Sense of Existence. It is non-dual and undeniably present when realized. It is touched directly and non-conceptually, without intermediary. It is immediate Presence. This realization gives rise to a certainty of Being.

 

This is an insight into the Luminous (Aware) essence of Being. However, it is only the luminous essence... not the empty nature. Many have insight into their luminous essence but overlook the empty nature.

 

So from this I AM insight... one must proceed to further insights. For example... the non-dual insight.

 

Resting in I AMness, if you then look at, say, a mountain, you might begin to notice that the sensation of the I AM or Pure Being and the sensation of the mountain are the same sensation. When you "feel" your pure Self and you "feel" the mountain, they are absolutely the same feeling. You will realise that everything shares the same luminous essence. There is no observer-observed dichotomy! Everything reveals itself as non-dual Presence. It is equally Presence whether in the formless Beingness or in forms. There is no separation, no Witness apart from arisings.

 

Then further insight arises... the Presence we are talking about is really just these arising and subsiding phenomena! This breaks the solidity of non-dual Presence... we no longer cling to a metaphysical essence but see the arising and subsiding nature of all dharmas. There is no agent - i.e. a seer, hearer, experiencer behind these arisings.

 

This is then followed by insight into how all phenomena arises... they arise due to dependent origination without agency.

 

So each insight is important, but must be complemented by further insights... the view keeps refining, even though the vivid luminous essence/presence is never neglected or denied as the view gets refined.

 

Right view is primarily the right view of empty nature... and this serves as an important precondition for further insights into emptiness to arise.

I AM. What does that really mean? It merely means We Are God.

The experience remains, but the view of 'We Are God' from the I AM level gradually transforms into 'the entire universe arises due to seamless interdependence without an origin or center'.

It is our collective consciousness that is the moving force in the world, perhaps in the universe. There is no Being out there directing traffic. The I AM consciousness is very much the way of the Tao. It presupposes that we have access to the electromagnetics and physical attributes of the earth in order to create and affect the changes we want, whether in healing or situational resolution. In order to achieve use of these forces we must align ourselves with the 'right view'. If you are finding other views in an out-of-body way through your meditations, then perhaps these can be equated to shamanic journeys of the mind which touch on the physical as well.

I have little experiences with OBEs apart from those occuring in lucid dreaming and sleep paralysis... however whatever view I have is not based on these experiences and my main concern is not with these experiences.

Your structural assembly about how It can be reached is valid for your mindset and your background. You may believe you can 'see' how the rest of us are laboring in the lower planes because of your perspective. But please understand that we all believe we are sitting on a perch that is the 'right view'...that's the nature of our egos. Please consider that true enlightment may just be crawling through and transcending all the structure.

Ultimately, the right view is like a raft... you have to get on the raft, but when you reach the other shore, the raft is left behind. This is the analogy given by Buddha.

 

What's left?

 

Vivid manifestation... sounds heard, sights seen, thoughts arising... everything happening but without self-reference. There is great freedom, with no structures, no need for conceptualization. Just This.

 

I no longer speak from concepts... but a direct experiential seeing of this. I do not rely on any structures for this... What is more direct and simple than just This... sound of 'da da da' due to typing on keyboard, music from speakers, words appearing on screen... an ever-changing reality without a center/self-reference. Just this is truth.

Edited November 20, 2010 by xabir2005

[Vajrahridaya]

 

I AM. What does that really mean? It merely means We Are God. It is our collective consciousness that is the moving force in the world, perhaps in the universe. There is no Being out there directing traffic. The I AM consciousness is very much the way of the Tao.

 

For Buddhahood, that has to be emptied as well by seeing how much of a relative arising this is too and not ultimate.

 

But please understand that we all believe we are sitting on a perch that is the 'right view'...that's the nature of our egos. Please consider that true enlightment may just be crawling through and transcending all the structure.

 

"right view" is very specific in Buddhas teachings and he debated many times over the course of 40 years about what it was and what it wasn't. There really is no transcending of the structure, there is just knowing exactly how it works. There is not a transcendent one beyond everything, that concept arises due to a mis-interpretation of experience.

[manitou]

Well, I accept that I may not know what you're talking about when you say right view. I didn't come up along Buddhist lines. my only point is within the I AM consciousness comes the realization that I am you and you are me. I AM the mountain and the earth and the cosmos. Maybe right view means something else to me - didn't realize it was a codified Buddhist concept. I merely love the TTC with my whole heart. If there's more whoop-de-do coming because I get to find a new structure later (yours, for example), then I look forward to visiting the magic realms and having my enlightenment assured, as you say.

[goldisheavy]

I think what you're saying transcendent view gained after awakening... but before awakening, one can start developing the right view by right understanding and conviction - and this is also very important prior to realization. However, once awakening (directly seeing the nature of reality) happens... there is no more grasping on conceptual view, it is just directly seen and experienced.

Totally agreed. The view is indeed transformative.

I do not minimize this realization as I personally have went through this phase, and took around two years of self-inquiring to get to (and the insight I have documented in the document 'Who am I' at http://www.box.net/shared/3verpiao63 ). In fact, it is a profound insight into the luminous essence of Being/Awareness. This insight is not negated in the later phases...

 

I AM is this Pure Presence/Pure Being/Pure Sense of Existence. It is non-dual and undeniably present when realized. It is touched directly and non-conceptually, without intermediary. It is immediate Presence. This realization gives rise to a certainty of Being.

 

This is an insight into the Luminous (Aware) essence of Being. However, it is only the luminous essence... not the empty nature. Many have insight into their luminous essence but overlook the empty nature.

 

So from this I AM insight... one must proceed to further insights. For example... the non-dual insight.

 

I think this is the order of your personal experience xabir. But you are forgetting something.

 

Some people experience things in a different sequence. Some people first start with an ordinary dualistic experience. Then they are introduced to the teaching of interdependent co-arising and the absence of inherent existence with regard to concrete objects. They ponder this teaching and become convinced that indeed it is so. Through wisdom they are able to perceive all discrete objects as one unbroken play of interdependence. Still, they continue to contemplate emptiness and interdependence. Then these people realize that even the sum total of the current experience exists in total interdependence with regard to the unborn potential of what all else there could be experienced instead of all this. Resting in this wisdom allows people to finally experience the unborn and mysterious luminocity of the I AM which is anchored nowhere and yet ever-present.

 

At this point a person understands that "I am this" is an incomplete and limiting statement and "I am not this" is also an incomplete and limiting statement. As Chuang Tzu puts it, no self, no other is where one can find the hinge of Tao.

 

This is what's called "released through wisdom."

 

There is no agent - i.e. a seer, hearer, experiencer behind these arisings.

 

There is no way to establish the absence of an agent. Why not? Nothing can be established.

 

And by the way, welcome back. Long time no hear xabir! As usual you make an entry with a War & Peace sized post!

Edited November 21, 2010 by goldisheavy

[Birch]

This is all very nice. Thank you.

I mean it's just being oneself (whatever that self happens to be doing at the point at which it turns back to search for itself) and being quite relieved that that's all there is. However, I still don't think it's very practical when you're embodied as an earthling. I guess that's why I prefer Taoist stuff. Hehehe, my Buddha-nature is actually a Taoist

[Vajrahridaya]

I AM the mountain and the earth and the cosmos.

 

I respect your humility.

 

I very well understand this experience where you fee like you've merged with everything. It's really just the awareness expanding past things and localized self through focus, a shocking experience of some sort... whatever.

 

But, you really are not me, and I am not you. We are connected yes, but we are not one. Due to the fact of the emptiness of things, the individuated consciousness can expand past things and time, but that's just because all things are empty of inherent existence, including your own consciousness, which is why everything is transparent, (even translucent) and mutable, including your own consciousness.

 

So yes... there are many more wondrous realms of experience to be had, on ever deepening levels.

Edited November 22, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[Vajrahridaya]

This is why the Buddha said that "right view" is the most important and the foundation of all the 8 fold path. It is the first of the 8 and also the experiential result as Nirvana.

 

Most traditions misinterpret the causes and conditions around experience, and especially the spiritual experiences. Most try to find a final identity of all, which is what the I AM experience revolves around as described in the Upanishads, which is where that concept comes from. Soham or Hamsa is the Sanskrit "I Am" and is known as one of the important statements from the ancient Upanishads, the core of which is the Vedas and the Buddha criticized these as being deficient in sufficient wisdom for liberation.

[manitou]

 

But, you really are not me, and I am not you. We are connected yes, but we are not one.

 

 

Actually, I think we are the same creature. The creature that breathes and 'thinks it knows' everything is the same entity that lives in both of us. It's that warm place that feels like home. It's the same creature that dwells in everyone and in every animal, plant, rock and tree. It's, like, really huge. The reason I know this is because if something hurts you it will make tears come to your eyes. If something hurts me it will make tears come to my eyes. If something is wonderful tears well up in my eyes, as they do yours. If something crosses your ego you will predictibly lash out, as I do unless I've tempered it not to do so. If you see a small cute fuzzy puppy your heart swells with love - as mine does. The proofs to me are in the physical manifestations, the tears, the anger, the love. The same critter lives inside all of us and reacts the same way in all of us.

 

I know this won't measure up to anybody's standard at all - any realizations I've had are of the self-realized variety. I merely fell in love with a book a long time ago. The entity can be tempered, I just don't think it's just done by jamming more data in.

[Vajrahridaya]

Actually, I think we are the same creature. The creature that breathes and 'thinks it knows' everything is the same entity that lives in both of us. It's that warm place that feels like home. It's the same creature that dwells in everyone and in every animal, plant, rock and tree. It's, like, really huge. The reason I know this is because if something hurts you it will make tears come to your eyes. If something hurts me it will make tears come to my eyes. If something is wonderful tears well up in my eyes, as they do yours. If something crosses your ego you will predictibly lash out, as I do unless I've tempered it not to do so. If you see a small cute fuzzy puppy your heart swells with love - as mine does. The proofs to me are in the physical manifestations, the tears, the anger, the love. The same critter lives inside all of us and reacts the same way in all of us.

 

I know this won't measure up to anybody's standard at all - any realizations I've had are of the self-realized variety. I merely fell in love with a book a long time ago. The entity can be tempered, I just don't think it's just done by jamming more data in.

 

Like I said, I know these experiences and interpretations of these experiences very well.

 

But... as I said above.

 

This is why the Buddha said that "right view" is the most important and the foundation of all the 8 fold path. It is the first of the 8 and also the experiential result as Nirvana.

 

Most traditions misinterpret the causes and conditions around experience, and especially the spiritual experiences. Most try to find a final identity of all, which is what the I AM experience revolves around as described in the Upanishads, which is where that concept comes from. Soham or Hamsa is the Sanskrit "I Am" and is known as one of the important statements from the ancient Upanishads, the core of which is the Vedas and the Buddha criticized these as being deficient in sufficient wisdom for liberation.

 

There really is no entity in and behind everything that is the "one" of all. There is a deeper view and interpretation of these experiences which the Buddha offers us. The result of the interpretation of experience that you are having is well hashed out by the Buddha, and it's not Nirvana. But, when one realizes directly the "right view" one has a direct experience of all this wisdom that is not merely conceptual. Yes, me and Xabir are talking through concepts here, but what else would you want from us on a blog board?

 

We are connected through the law of inter-dependence, and our consciousness can transcend physical barriers due to emptiness. But, we are not one. You can intuit things, and feel empathy, but we are not exactly the same, even dimensionally, people exist on personal dimensions.

Edited November 22, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[manitou]

I'm exhausted. Taking such a foray into the left brain really does me in.

[Vajrahridaya]

I'm exhausted. Taking such a foray into the left brain really does me in.

 

Both must be in balance for enlightenment.

 

But, I understand. I remember going through that.

 

p.s. not that I'm enlightened. I just remember going through feeling drained by the mind training.

Edited November 22, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[dwai]

Assurance? Yes, Nirvana is assurable. This is Buddha's good news. Just believe (have right view of reality) and be saved. (but of course, don't stop at belief, go and actually see it for yourself!!)

 

Jokes aside, I'm not trying to convert anyone to Buddhism. I'm just saying have the right view of reality (which isn't contradictory to Taoism as far as I am aware of), and your awakening is assured.

 

Something I posted in my own forum but sharing it here...

 

-------------

 

To stress the importance of right view... I would like to quote what the Buddha said.

 

 

 

http://www.accesstoi...m2.html#arising

 

...."Form... Feeling... Perception... Fabrications... Consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

 

"One who has conviction & belief that these phenomena are this way is called a faith-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

 

"One who, after pondering with a modicum of discernment, has accepted that these phenomena are this way is called a Dhamma-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

 

"One who knows and sees that these phenomena are this way is called a stream-winner, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening."...

 

 

 

On the topic of Right View, it is said that one who realizes the nature of dharma is said to enter the stream, become a stream enterer, destined to attain Nirvana/Arhatship in no more than 7 lifetimes (or in this lifetime if he works hard for it). He will never again enter into the lower realms. He no longer has self-view (he realizes Anatta), he no longer has doubts about Dharma, he no longer pays attention to meaningless rituals.

 

 

However, much is also said about someone who has not attained stream entry, but simply a 'faith-follower' having the Right View of the nature of dharmas - as being Anicca, Dukkha, and Anatta - Impermanent, Unsatisfactory, and Non-self. And having the right view of Dependent Origination/Emptiness.

 

That is, if you understand, have conviction and belief that the nature of dharma is so... You will not die until you attain stream entry.

 

Therefore, by simply having the right view you have already gone half the way of your path. This is why Right View is the 1st of the Noble 8 Fold Path.

 

By having the Right View, your stream entry, your awakening into the nature of dharma is assured this lifetime and thereby your Nirvana is assured to happen in no more than 7 lives.

 

 

 

This is the importance of having the right view.

 

On another note... I have seen many (really, a lot) of very sincere practitioners who practice very hard... much harder than me. Unfortunately, because they do not have the right view, they get stuck at a certain stage of experience or realization.

 

For example, they may get stuck at the 'I AM' level of realization. Why? Because there is no one to point them out the right view... So no matter how hard they practice, they cannot go pass that stage... even if they practice for decades or even after they pass away.

 

Whereas, for me, and many others... who are not very diligent practitioners, but somehow due to having been instilled the right view, certain conditions arise and the nature of Dharma is seen very quickly. In a matter of few years, it can be done.

Never think you can skip 'right view' and just practice and hope that one day you will simply realize things by yourself (a very common mistake, I believe)... cuz, no matter how hard you practice, you still probably won't realize the right view by yourself. You need to understand and have conviction in the Buddha's teachings.

 

 

 

So please... if there is any doubts or things you don't understand about the view of Dharma, please get it sorted out, please have the right view.

 

If you don't understand Anatta (no-self), or Emptiness, please ask.

 

There are experienced moderators... like Thusness and Simpo who can point them out to you...

 

It is really not difficult to grasp this... so make the effort, it is definitely worthwhile.

 

Don't you want to be assured enlightenment in this life? Yes, this assurance is possible. You just need to have the right view. (Of course, right practice, i.e. direct contemplation, is also important as a follow up to attain enlightenment, but even right view alone ensures your enlightenment within this life)

 

 

 

I am especially indebted to Thusness who pointed out to me the 'right view'... otherwise I will probably get lost in certain phase in my practice like I mentioned earlier.

 

.........

 

In the Suttas, many people attain stream entry after listening to a single discourse by the Buddha (and often happens to be their FIRST discourse they hear from Buddha). This is how powerful 'right view' is... once it gets into you, a shift starts to happen. It can happen immediately... or maybe gradual... but by the end of this life, you will certainly realize the nature of dharma.

 

Thought I might also share my thoughts on 'why' right view assures enlightenment...

 

 

 

MT says

k

I heard even theory knowelege will lead to direct experience

 

 

AEN says

it doesnt 'lead' but it serves as a very important condition...

and once u understand dharma, u will be propelled and inclined towards contemplating them

which leads to insight

 

MT says

comtemplate means think n analyse abt it like four noble truths?

AEM says

not just think and analyse

observe, look at these facts in your direct experience

like the way its taught in mindfulness in plain english

MT says

oh

AEN says

yeah

some thoughts are also needed... but the thoughts are just reminders to look at the bare fact of reality

like 'there is no you'... look... is this so?

 

 

 

 

 

p.s. Thusness and Simpo probably don't view this forum often, and neither do I because I am serving the army, but nevertheless I will try to reply if there is anything asked. I don't wish that this thread degenerate into unconstructive arguments... so please try to keep it constructive, a place to understand the dharma seals, D.O., etc.

 

 

I understand and acknowledge what you have posted Xabir. However, I sense an undertone of "Buddhism" offers the "Right view" which I just don't agree with. The "Right View" of Buddhism is congruent with the "right view" of Taoism or the "right view" of Advaita Vedanta (or actually Upanishadic teachings). The inference drawn from a Non-Dual experience is still rooted in very dualistic frameworks (the descriptive process) and that's why it is dubious at best to give "voice" to the "view".

 

The Right View, in my humble opinion is the complete suspension of Judgement and complete immersion in experience itself.

 

We can (and have here and in other fora) debate till the cows come home about "this and that" minute detail of "this or that" scripture. The crux of the matter is that these are simply dualistic intellectual exercises. A lot of what we perceive in "another" system is the baggage that we carry around related to our "preferred system". The important thing is to look beyond these systems and accept the experience itself at face value (or no value because no value can be ascribed to it)...there is only direct intuitive wisdom.

 

 

 

[goldisheavy]

The Right View, in my humble opinion is the complete suspension of Judgement and complete immersion in experience itself.

 

What is "experience itself" and how is it different from "experience not-itself"?

 

How can judgment be suspended?

[dwai]

What is "experience itself" and how is it different from "experience not-itself"?

 

How can judgment be suspended?

 

 

Experience itself is just what it is. Experience "not-itself" is intellectualizing an experience...descriptions, etc.

 

Judgement can be suspended by not ascribing qualitative values to the experience after the fact. When you experience you don't assign a good or bad value to it...you just experience. The crap starts after the fact...always!

[strawdog65]

Experience itself is just what it is. Experience "not-itself" is intellectualizing an experience...descriptions, etc.

 

Judgement can be suspended by not ascribing qualitative values to the experience after the fact. When you experience you don't assign a good or bad value to it...you just experience. The crap starts after the fact...always!

 

 

dwai, well said!

[goldisheavy]

Experience itself is just what it is.

 

That's circular reasoning.

 

Experience "not-itself" is intellectualizing an experience...descriptions, etc.

 

Intellectualizing is an experience. Is it not? If you've never experienced intellectualizing, then what the heck are you talking about?

 

Judgement can be suspended by not ascribing qualitative values to the experience after the fact.

 

So that's your judgment about judgment then. The moment you notice that your judgment has become suspended you just made a judgment. Judgment is perception. It is very subtle.

Edited November 22, 2010 by goldisheavy

[dwai]

That's circular reasoning.

 

 

 

Intellectualizing is an experience. Is it not? If you've never experienced intellectualizing, then what the heck are you talking about?

 

 

intellectualizing is an experience, no doubt. But it is not THE Experience. There is a definitive difference between the two. I am not saying it is not a good thing to do...

 

The difference between the two is like Drinking Tea and then describing the process.

 

So that's your judgment about judgment then. The moment you notice that your judgment has become suspended you just made a judgment. Judgment is perception. It is very subtle.

 

 

Indeed...so it makes it important to not notice that...but just be in the experience(s)

 

 

[Vajrahridaya]

 

Indeed...so it makes it important to not notice that...but just be in the experience(s)

 

Who experiences?

[goldisheavy]

intellectualizing is an experience, no doubt. But it is not THE Experience.

 

There is nothing you can single out as "THE Experience." Unless you're prejudiced.

[C T]

Who experiences?

Indeed, who experiences, when the 'who' itself is also simultaneously the fruit of another set(s) of ongoing, imprintable layer(s) of experiences. What happens when these experiences are not focalized/scrutinized/localized? What is left?

Edited November 22, 2010 by CowTao

[Vajrahridaya]

Indeed, who experiences, when the 'who' itself is also simultaneously the fruit of another set(s) of ongoing, imprintable layer(s) of experiences. What happens when these experiences are not focalized/scrutinized/localized? What is left?

 

An empty process, illuminated by the wisdom of this direct knowing. Even the illuminating "of"

is an empty process. Nothing to cling to, and no one to cling. Total freedom!

Edited November 22, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[dwai]

There is nothing you can single out as "THE Experience." Unless you're prejudiced.

 

Of course you can. Every moment is THE experience...a discrete "THE" experience (Isn't that what the Buddhists believe?)...Alaya...a interconnected stream of experiences...infinite and eternal?