Your enlightenment in this life is assured!

[Vajrahridaya]

If you debate me, stay on topic. The evil reference is from the literature. Not my interpretation. I don't appreciate your refaming my statements to suit your weak narrative.

 

There is a book on Padmasambhava that states this. What right does he have to interpret Bon according to his own belief system? None! The literature states he was subduing evil spirits and an evil goddess. Please don't recite some higher purpose in regards to this action by him. Most if any of the positive forms of Bon were subdued by these negative energies before Padmasambhava.

 

 

You see, you don't see how your projection effects your interpretation. You could say the same about me. Which is fine. Before Padmasambhava there were Bon black magincians and all sorts of wars going on in Tibet. Yes, there are evil minded spirits that need to be subdued here and there and to me, Padmasambhava did just that. To you, he was the evil one. Your view is a glass is half empty, mine is the glass is half full.

 

I guess in your view, if Padmasambhava creates negativity, then it is for a higher cause?

 

He didn't, so there.

I believe it is in this book.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Life-Liberation-Padmasambhava-Yeshe-Tsogyal/dp/0898004225/ref=sr_1_13?ie=UTF8&qid=1290998370&sr=8-13

 

I have his life story. The way you interpret it is entirely your own creation, and not objective, but very subjective.

Edited November 29, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[ralis]

You see, you don't see how your projection effects your interpretation. You could say the same about me. Which is fine. Before Padmasambhava there were Bon black magincians and all sorts of wars going on in Tibet. Yes, there are evil minded spirits that need to be subdued here and there and to me, Padmasambhava did just that. To you, he was the evil one. Your view is a glass is half empty, mine is the glass is half full.

 

 

 

He didn't, so there.

 

 

I have his life story. The way you interpret it is entirely your own creation, and not objective, but very subjective.

 

 

Black magicians? Witches? Evil doers? Sounds like inquisitions and Salem witch trials. I guess Padmasambhava was judge jury and executioner in this case. This could be just one myth perpetrated to keep superstitious Tibetans in line.

Edited November 29, 2010 by ralis

[Vajrahridaya]

Black magicians? Witches? Evil doers? Sounds like inquisitions and Salem witch trials. I guess Padmasambhava was judge jury and executioner in this case. This could be just one myth perpetrated to keep superstitious Tibetans in line.

 

Again, everything is the negative side of things for you. Padmasambhava was not out killing Bon practitioners. There were Buddhists who did go to that extreme, but I don't see any teaching of Padmasambhava justifying that.

 

Yes, there are a such thing as black magicians, even today... people that can poison people with their minds and also wield curses through mantras and incantations. I also believe that there is a such thing as witch craft and I've experienced it first hand.

 

You, I think, do not.

 

p.s. It's become increasingly clear how unhappy of a person you must be and how negative a view you must have of human kind, with all the ways you justify your negative views of things. At least, that is all I've seen of you.

 

You choose what you want to believe based upon your depth or lack of insight.

Edited November 29, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[ralis]

Again, everything is the negative side of things for you. Padmasambhava was not out killing Bon practitioners. There were Buddhists who did go to that extreme, but I don't see any teaching of Padmasambhava justifying that.

 

Yes, there are a such thing as black magicians, even today... people that can poison people with their minds and also wield curses through mantras and incantations. I also believe that there is a such thing as witch craft and I've experienced it first hand.

 

You, I think, do not.

 

p.s. It's become increasingly clear how unhappy of a person you must be and how negative a view you must have of human kind, with all the ways you justify your negative views of things. At least, that is all I've seen of you.

 

 

You are missing the point! I am only discussing one point of view and that is a myth that is used to keep people in line. The myth that there were black magic practitioners in the past and therefor one must yield to the appropriate Buddhist view. That is not to say there weren't. However, this argument has been used to control populations in the past. This is a fault of human nature which you claim to be an expert on.

 

You make a blanket statement about witchcraft which is in the venue of women. Are you saying witches are evil? All they do is go around casting spells?

 

Do you believe everything you read without question, cross referencing and lack of curiosity. As for myself I have been a student of history all my life. I recognize bogus arguments very quickly.

 

You frame me as someone negative, which is a gross misrepresentation of who I am.

[Vajrahridaya]

You are missing the point! I am only discussing one point of view and that is a myth that is used to keep people in line. The myth that there were black magic practitioners in the past and therefor one must yield to the appropriate Buddhist view. That is not to say there weren't. However, this argument has been used to control populations in the past. This is a fault of human nature which you claim to be an expert on.

 

I make that claim? Really?

 

I'm just saying, what if it's not a myth? Then your argument is null and void.

 

You make a blanket statement about witchcraft which is in the venue of women. Are you saying witches are evil? All they do is go around casting spells?

 

Ok, I can say Warlocks then too, which are male witches and no, not all of them are out for their own personal gain. Plenty of them are though.

 

Do you believe everything you read without question, cross referencing and lack of curiosity. As for myself I have been a student of history all my life. I recognize bogus arguments very quickly.

 

Of course I don't believe everything I read, and I have cross referenced and reference my own experience as well. I can recognize bogus arguments coming from you very quickly. Curiosity is what brought me to the Buddhadharma, and curiosity is what brought me to delve into it's experiential validity.

 

You frame me as someone negative, which is a gross misrepresentation of who I am.

 

It could be, but all I have to go on are your posts towards me. So, within that spectrum of criteria... yes... you are negative to me, within my own subjective experience of you.

Edited November 29, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[manitou]

There's no attachment (no-non-attachment), total acceptance, though also the manifestation of total compassion, so every action is in alignment for betterment of all beings within a very vast scope of perspective, living from a state of super-normal sense of inter-connection. There is no question of ego or not ego for a Buddha. The 4 immeasurables have already been perfected even prier to Buddhahood. These are infinite 1) loving-kindness or benevolence, 2) compassion, 3) sympathetic joy, and, 4) equanimity. Buddhahood is perfection of the union between luminosity and emptiness. Also the union, or yoking (yoga) of method and wisdom. There would be no sense of gluttony, or personal pride in a Buddha.

 

Very well said, Veejay. I look forward to seeing these qualities of the 4 immeasurables coming through in your posts.

[Birch]

"Ok good! But you seem to have been carrying these views around for a while, for as long as I've known you. It's just, you don't seem to me to be coming across as a person who is asking with an open mind, bur rather a defensive state of mind, which is messing with my ability to speak openly with you. If I am completely wrong, than I apologize."

 

Hello Vaj,

 

Thought I'd take this one up before I continue my contemplation about buddhism. I think it would be helpful to your case/cause to stop the statements that start with "you" for a while. I can't figure out if it's some kind of buddhist teaching technique to get people to see where their ego-boundaries are - or something else. In other words, are you doing it towards some helpful purpose?

 

I read something interesting the other day. It concerned people who insult other people. The gist was that if someone is insulting you then they're actually saying more about themselves.

 

I'm sure there's nothing I'm doing that is messing with your ability to do anything. As I've said before I think the techniques used in buddhism are great and I'm thankful I came across them. In fact, I've noticed when we discuss practices here, everything seems to go quite well, it's when we discuss religions that things start getting icky.

[Vajrahridaya]

...

 

I think your misunderstanding of me is as equal as my lack of understanding you. Oh well...

 

So, nothing about the information I provided?

 

By the way... I have not been formally trained in how to teach anything. I didn't even finish high school and I'm completely self educated, aside from spiritual guidance from Hindu Tantric masters then a Buddhist Tantric master, but that's on an entirely different level from the scholastic sense of an education. I was raised in impoverished areas of the US and my expression can be a little rough around the edges, as well as obnoxious, because this is how I survived the many ordeals I've been through, including homelessness. So, I do apologize if I come off as rude. It's not my intention.

 

This has nothing to do with Buddhism, and everything to do with me as a person, who is working through karmas of all sorts.

Edited November 29, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[ralis]

I think your misunderstanding of me is as equal as my lack of understanding you. Oh well...

 

So, nothing about the information I provided?

 

By the way... I have not been formally trained in how to teach anything. I didn't even finish high school and I'm completely self educated, aside from spiritual guidance from Hindu Tantric masters then a Buddhist Tantric master, but that's on an entirely different level from the scholastic sense of an education. I was raised in impoverished areas of the US and my expression can be a little rough around the edges, as well as obnoxious, because this is how I survived the many ordeals I've been through, including homelessness. So, I do apologize if I come off as rude. It's not my intention.

 

This has nothing to do with Buddhism, and everything to do with me as a person, who is working through karmas of all sorts.

 

 

Thanks for being honest. If one see's oneself as working through various karmas, there may be no end point to resolve conflicts. If not now, when?

[Vajrahridaya]

Thanks for being honest. If one see's oneself as working through various karmas, there may be no end point to resolve conflicts. If not now, when?

First off, you already knew all this.

 

and,

 

I don't believe in self delusion.

 

Also, please be more aware of your own personal baggage over mine.

Edited November 29, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[xenolith]

Vajrahridaya,

 

Is there a shorter version of your screen-name that you prefer?

 

Thank you for your answer to my earlier question. I didn't understand many of the buddhist references, but I understood the gist of it.

 

Curious to know to what degree you ascribe importance of your mentors in your spiritual evolution. Know elsewhere you've espoused the value of teachers...in particular, what is the nature of your relationship, at the time of your parting with each, or now, as the case may be. Would also appreciate any offerings regarding your perception of the nature of the relationship between deprivation and spiritual awakening. Not trying to make this thread about you, indeed, this part of it is about me.

 

Kindly, gratefully,

 

xeno

[Vajrahridaya]

Vajrahridaya,

 

Is there a shorter version of your screen-name that you prefer?

 

VH is fine...

Thank you for your answer to my earlier question. I didn't understand many of the buddhist references, but I understood the gist of it.

 

Wonderful!

 

 

Curious to know to what degree you ascribe importance of your mentors in your spiritual evolution.

 

A very high amount. They are the living representations of a lineage of enlightenment with physically present karmic roots on this plane of existence. The guidance of mentor-ship I have received from my various teachers is not only through their body, but also comes through dreams and meditation visions. All of which turned out to be either prophetic or immediately helpful. I've really only had 3 mentors that effected me to this degree, well ok... I've had visions of the Dalai Lama too... so maybe 4 on an intimate level. Actually, when the Karmapa was in NYC a few years go, that effected me very deeply even though I wasn't able to see him physically, he came to me psychically as my longing to see him was very strong and deep.

 

Actually, the thing is, is that when you make a connection like that, you connect to an entire lineage of beyond the body beings, of which I can testify to.

 

Know elsewhere you've espoused the value of teachers...in particular, what is the nature of your relationship, at the time of your parting with each, or now, as the case may be.

 

I don't feel like I've really left any of my teachers in that sense of ultimate "leaving behind." I've maybe just evolved and gravitated towards new levels of teaching of another paradigm? I still remember all my teachers with great fondness and appreciation and even sometimes have important dreams with them to this day.

 

Would also appreciate any offerings regarding your perception of the nature of the relationship between deprivation and spiritual awakening.

 

I think spiritual awakening is very personal and one can't judge in another what would work to awaken one or not, unless you are completely free from subjective projection, and I am not... as far as I'm aware?

 

For me... It has played a great role, as being deprived of the comforts that make some people feel at home here, has made me long for deeper answers to the question of who and what am I? What is this? Why is this? It's made me maybe more curious as to the causes and conditions of experience itself.

 

But, just like anyone, your personal history is a complex story, and some become embittered by their depraved situations. I had the benefit of a mother, though meager in funds, was rich in spirituality and art, as well as creativity and intelligence. Though she brought me up in less than ideal areas, her own attempt to bring me up according to good ideals of vegetarianism with the understanding of karma and the power of meditation made a great impression upon me, even if only subconsciously at first. She used to take me to Ashrams and meditation centers my entire life growing up with her, and instead of a doctor we'd go to a Chinese medicine doctor of an acupuncturist or a massage therapist slash Reiki Master, kundalini yogini or something...

 

So you see, it all depends upon you... really. I know some very wealthy people who get sick of their constant barrage of pleasure who turn to spirituality because they find all that wish fulfillment entirely unsatisfying? I wouldn't know... but, I've met people like this.

 

Edited November 30, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[sweeney]

I agree... But maybe you missed my point. I think zen buddhists use the tao as a vehicle or method (verbal tools) to become enlightened. So accordance (another semantic trick) once 'gained' offers the 'feeling' (awareness) of the creative void ie the mother of all things. The old Celtic christians such as St Columba and St Ketigern practiced a dualistic faith based on early Christianity and remnants of old Celtic magic. Druids; not to be confused with English eccentrics of the Druid faith today, were a Priesthood and would have conducted themselves in much the same way as Celtic Saints. Take the venerable St Brigid an old Gaelic (possibly preGaelic) Goddess who was transmuted into a christian saint due to her popularity amongst the peoples of Ireland and Scotland. But I move into area's outwith the Tao Bums. So you are right that buddhists slap the tao onto zen. But do taoists slap the tathagata onto the tao?

 

P.s please refer to Ploughing the Clouds: The search for Irish Soma by Peter Lambourn Wilson for insight into drift between religions/philosophies

 

P.s.s perhaps early Indian Buddhists in China sought Shamanic hermits to buy Soma (The Tao)?

[sweeney]

Sorry, also whats kundalini sickness?

[Vajrahridaya]

I agree... But maybe you missed my point. I think zen buddhists use the tao as a vehicle or method (verbal tools) to become enlightened. So accordance (another semantic trick) once 'gained' offers the 'feeling' (awareness) of the creative void ie the mother of all things. The old Celtic christians such as St Columba and St Ketigern practiced a dualistic faith based on early Christianity and remnants of old Celtic magic. Druids; not to be confused with English eccentrics of the Druid faith today, were a Priesthood and would have conducted themselves in much the same way as Celtic Saints. Take the venerable St Brigid an old Gaelic (possibly preGaelic) Goddess who was transmuted into a christian saint due to her popularity amongst the peoples of Ireland and Scotland. But I move into area's outwith the Tao Bums. So you are right that buddhists slap the tao onto zen. But do taoists slap the tathagata onto the tao?

 

P.s please refer to Ploughing the Clouds: The search for Irish Soma by Peter Lambourn Wilson for insight into drift between religions/philosophies

 

P.s.s perhaps early Indian Buddhists in China sought Shamanic hermits to buy Soma (The Tao)?

 

It seems that plenty of Taoist lineages did slap the Tathagata into their practice and understanding of the Tao, and then there are plenty that did not.

 

Buddhists don't consider the void the source of anything, but merely a dependently originated space that corresponds with content, as in the void is not treated as a permanent self existing self of everything. In Buddhism, there is no inherent universal mother or father, or source to things, no primal origin or ground of being unless one is talking figuratively about lets say, mind and it's space being the origin of ones state of experience, or something like that. The cosmos is just beginningless and endless cycling and recycling without inherent self. In some ways I feel some forms of Buddhism in China are polluted by some Taoist notions of space and void in China, sorry to say. Just as I would think some Taoists would think that there are many forms of Taoism that were polluted by the influx of Buddhism into China.

 

Also soma in the yogic traditions of India of which Buddhism is a huge contributor to is found in the subtler regions of the head during kechari mudra, which doesn't necessarily lead to Buddhahood according to Buddhism, but merely higher bliss states and formless states of consciousness. I think soma is a universal experience amongst hermit contemplatives of any tradition though.

 

Plowing the Clouds sounds like a familiar book?

[Vajrahridaya]

Sorry, also whats kundalini sickness?

 

It's when the kundalini isn't grounded and you start going crazy with too much information, or too many psychic powers or heat fluctuations that screw with your nervous system... all sorts of things.

[Jax]

For all those who may be interested in Tibetan Dzogchen and the path of "immediate realization", I have included the Youtube links below from my retreat teachings in Mexico from this month. For more information regarding Dzogchen please ask to join my Facebook group: "Dzogchen Discussion" and visit my website www.wayoflight.net

Here are the complete set of five Dzogchen Retreat videos on Youtube:

Part 1:

Part 2:

Part 3:

Part 4:

Part 5:

http://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=nmIy9FbBUnk