Tso Family Neigong...Iron Shirt...

[Fireblood]

I have recently been looking into iron shirt/body neigongs.

 

Has anyone heard of Tso Family Neigong? (Tso Laifeng).

 

Or how about a set of 24 Neigong exercises used in Tai Chi and for Iron Shirt/Internal Strength?

 

And finally is the Iron Shirt taught by Mantak Chia, the same as that in other martial arts? Does it result in any ability to take blows to the body like punches etc?

 

After a fair amount of searching I have come to the conclusion that Tai Chi Chuan without internal strengthening exercises is incomplete.

 

There's one main Neigong I'm missing. When issuing energy (in push hands etc) we are supposed to not use strength "li" but use energy "chin" or "jing". The verbal secret transmission states that "li" is issued from the bones and muscles but "chin" is issued from the sinews/tendons.

 

Is the obvious staring me in the face? Is Iron Shirt 2 Tendon Changing the missing link for me?

 

Any ideas anyone?

[neimad]

i apologise for being the resident "RMAX head".... but ever since reading more about this system i have decided that the value of iron shirt style training is minimal and even possibly detrimental.

 

if being concerned about strikes to the body i feel the "shockability" (RMAX flowfighting) technique or "yielding" (cheng hsin) technique has much more value as it teaches the body also to move fluidly.... i've been feeling the impacts of this style of training even when i bump into things.

 

i banged my shin on a tow ball from a car when working the other day and was suprised that i "yielded" to it and actually didn't hurt myself even though i impacted quite hard.

 

i was initially attracted to the healing tao system of mantak chia for all the purported health claims.... what i really wanted was a method of restoring my body and moving it in ways that i could no longer more and being strong.

i dabbled with it for a while but the results werent forthcoming and the training was boring and complicated (for me).... i find RMAX has given me everything i want in that department.

 

i was doing 4-square breathing by yudelove for a while but have also decided it is of little value to what i really want.....

 

a solid, integrated structure is important yes.... but i'm not so sure about the pressurisation through inhale protocol as followed in iron-shirt breathing methods.... but then again there have been lots and lots of monks over the years who have done this kind of training to great results..... so i could be just talking out of my bum.

 

[Fireblood]

Hey thanks. That's a great alternative. I'll look into it, definately. But I like my Tai Chi so I probably won't stop that.

[thaddeus]

I have recently been looking into iron shirt/body neigongs.

 

Has anyone heard of Tso Family Neigong? (Tso Laifeng).

 

Or how about a set of 24 Neigong exercises used in Tai Chi and for Iron Shirt/Internal Strength?

 

And finally is the Iron Shirt taught by Mantak Chia, the same as that in other martial arts? Does it result in any ability to take blows to the body like punches etc?

 

After a fair amount of searching I have come to the conclusion that Tai Chi Chuan without internal strengthening exercises is incomplete.

 

There's one main Neigong I'm missing. When issuing energy (in push hands etc) we are supposed to not use strength "li" but use energy "chin" or "jing". The verbal secret transmission states that "li" is issued from the bones and muscles but "chin" is issued from the sinews/tendons.

 

Is the obvious staring me in the face? Is Iron Shirt 2 Tendon Changing the missing link for me?

 

Any ideas anyone?

Depends on what your goals are. I think generally you are on the right track with your thinking. It would be a mistake to learn the iron shirt stuff just to absorb blows. To use it to strengthen your sinews overall, is the right thing to do. I think once you get the gist of what the training is all about, then incorporate it into your taiji practice. Not using 'li' means don't use ordinary strength when pushing (or yielding), this only serves to disconnect your body and break the connection to the ground. Using 'jing' means you are using your sinews and using the ground force. Using jing is a whole body movement, using li is a disjointed local movement.

You can do everything you need to do only with form *if* you know what to do. Until then you need to work with heavy weapons, partners, and other solo exercises to get it...i think that's why some masters say the form is all you need..which is true once you get there. So I think you are on the right track based on what I've seen and experienced myself..Good luck!

T

[tumoessence]

I have recently been looking into iron shirt/body neigongs.

 

Has anyone heard of Tso Family Neigong? (Tso Laifeng).

 

Or how about a set of 24 Neigong exercises used in Tai Chi and for Iron Shirt/Internal Strength?

 

And finally is the Iron Shirt taught by Mantak Chia, the same as that in other martial arts? Does it result in any ability to take blows to the body like punches etc?

 

After a fair amount of searching I have come to the conclusion that Tai Chi Chuan without internal strengthening exercises is incomplete.

 

There's one main Neigong I'm missing. When issuing energy (in push hands etc) we are supposed to not use strength "li" but use energy "chin" or "jing". The verbal secret transmission states that "li" is issued from the bones and muscles but "chin" is issued from the sinews/tendons.

 

Is the obvious staring me in the face? Is Iron Shirt 2 Tendon Changing the missing link for me?

 

Any ideas anyone?

Look at the website for classical tai chiclassical tai chi there on the main page is a demonstration of internal discipline. Try integrating that into your form or order their intro dvd where more details are given. This is a lost element to form practice.

Then there is Master Tu in San Jose in Ca, the guy who pulls trucks with his nuts. But I think that tai chi nei gong should be relaxed in the abdomen and not a hard style qi gong. There is also a martial qi gong system in Qi Gong Emowerment by Liang I think his name is. Check out the table of contents for the book at Amazon

[rex]

Bryn Orr produced a guide to iron body qigong called Bronze Warriors. He seems to have disappeared off the net now. It may be worth emailing him. Hi email can be found in this message: http://www.healingtaousa.com/cgi-bin/tpost.pl?smessage=617

[Trunk]

And finally is the Iron Shirt taught by Mantak Chia, the same as that in other martial arts? Does it result in any ability to take blows to the body like punches etc?

Chia's IS123 has some similarities to authentic systems, provides some topic introductions, but also has a lot of mis-direction (some quite dangerous, some not) and a lot missing: there's nothing like studying with a good teacher, long term, in person. (Sure, get what you can from Chia's videos, but be careful not to hurt yourself with his IS1 and I would recommend you search elsewhere for authentic training.)

 

There's one main Neigong I'm missing. When issuing energy (in push hands etc) we are supposed to not use strength "li" but use energy "chin" or "jing". The verbal secret transmission states that "li" is issued from the bones and muscles but "chin" is issued from the sinews/tendons.

 

Is the obvious staring me in the face? Is Iron Shirt 2 Tendon Changing the missing link for me?

Tendon changing is a big part of the puzzle. The fascia, and also the joints as nexus of connective tissue. "Tendon" is code for "connective tissue": fascia, tendon, ligament.. actually, going into the bone is part of the culmination of that. The bones get addressed in a different way than the usual muscle-bone leverage thing. But, yes, you're on the right track that "tendon changing" is a BIG part of the puzzle.

 

--- later edit ---

I've only had a little exposure to Scott Sonnon's work, but it looks like his stuff is innovative in working the connective tissues & joints (though his system doesn't have the heaven~earth part of it). Might effectively complement your tai chi (or other internal MA).

 

A simple tip that goes a long way is to warm up all of the major joints (ideally through circular movement) at the beginning of each qi gong / internal martial art practice session.

Edited May 18, 2006 by Trunk

[Fireblood]

Chia's IS123 has some similarities to authentic systems, provides some topic introductions, but also has a lot of mis-direction (some quite dangerous, some not) and a lot missing: there's nothing like studying with a good teacher, long term, in person. (Sure, get what you can from Chia's videos, but be careful not to hurt yourself with his IS1 and I would recommend you search elsewhere for authentic training.)

 

Tendon changing is a big part of the puzzle. The fascia, and also the joints as nexus of connective tissue. "Tendon" is code for "connective tissue": fascia, tendon, ligament.. actually, going into the bone is part of the culmination of that. The bones get addressed in a different way than the usual muscle-bone leverage thing. But, yes, you're on the right track that "tendon changing" is a BIG part of the puzzle.

 

--- later edit ---

I've only had a little exposure to Scott Sonnon's work, but it looks like his stuff is innovative in working the connective tissues & joints (though his system doesn't have the heaven~earth part of it). Might effectively complement your tai chi (or other internal MA).

 

A simple tip that goes a long way is to warm up all of the major joints (ideally through circular movement) at the beginning of each qi gong / internal martial art practice session.

 

 

I'm not too fussed about taking blows to the body. I'm more interested in the actual process and the tendon neigong.

 

I have checked your site about the "packing" in IS1. Won't be starting for a while yet anyhow.

 

I am going to start a new website on integrating loads of stuff into a short tai chi chuan form, too many people are hiding information, so I'm going to share all mine. Similar to yours I hope, something between a blog and a full site!

[turbo]

I have recently been looking into iron shirt/body neigongs.

...

 

Any ideas anyone?

 

There used to be a group called the Kaishan Insitute that taught authentic "iron shirt" or as they call it "golden shield" qigong. I had a roomate who practiced it. The results were amazing, getting hit in the stomach would only move him backwards, without injury to him. His skin would redden, but he claimed it was from his "chi firing". The training involved hitting the dan tiens with various tools (hands, wire hitters, up to oak staffs) soaked in herbs. First the lower then the middle then legs and hands/arms then the head. Once an area was "sealed" then that part of the body could take just about any blow and not suffer injury. The hands and feet worked differently, but were equally protected. Then the qigong moved to nigong pure energetic meditation, which was secret. The stories from this group were amazing, one 70 woman year old no longer needed her glasses and started menstrutaion again. Someone started a fight with another practitioner and when the practitioner threw them the attacker could not get up until the practitoner called back his chi. Ahother person went crazy. This was the problem with it as far as I could tell, the practitioners seemed to be constantly dealing with a lot of heavy emotions. My guess was as the result ridding the body of karma/energetic obstructions.

 

Anyhow, to bring it back to iron shirt neigongs this is it. This is what Chia was trying to teach and from what I saw and heard you need to learn it from a well trained person, not a book. Goolge "golden shield", the origional kaishan website seems out of order, but it looks like several new teachers are spreading the practice. I have no doubt that the only way to cause harm to someone who has completed the physical training in this dicipline would be through a pure energetic attack rendered through a true martial art or psychic powers. In other words Scott Sonnon could try sambo, grappling, or anything else and the practitioner would likely be amused.

 

Hope this helps.

[neimad]

In other words Scott Sonnon could try sambo, grappling, or anything else and the practitioner would likely be amused.

 

hahaha its funny that scott sonnon is now being held up to guru status and being a benchmark to compare against.

 

he's just a person, like all of us including those super-powered qi gongers.

 

CST is a system of self-mastery. so while scott has put it all together and identified certain principles that govern how the body works and certain methodologies and protocols to enhance the efficiency and effectiveness of ones training.... it's still all about individual mastery. so it's not really someone following his system, it's someone using experientially proven methods to create their own unique style.

 

since studying i am starting to discover my own chains to release tension in different ways when i have it. i'm exploring my own training to achieve my own goals.

i have no doubt that in time i will invent my own yoga flows and even my own chi kung to achieve my needs..... i have no doubt that i am capable of this.

 

 

on another note, i'm just curious the reasons for wanting to learn practices such as iron shirt? is it for the coolness or 'wow' factor (which i will take as a valid reason, it would be cool to have an iron shirt) or is it for spiritual reasons? if it is for spiritual reasons, what makes it an effective pursuit on the path to self-realisation?

or is it for martial reasons? and if so, do you have the years necessary to learn it.... and how would it do against a knife or gun?

 

i'm not critising but i am being critical (in a constructive manner i hope).

 

this whole life experience is one big bizarre mess isn't it? how can we know what we really want and how do we know to go about getting that?

for myself i have identified only one thing that is of real drive: deepening my personal daily (i.e. moment to moment) experience. for me this is an integration of enhancing my physical, emotional, mental and spiritual capabilities and living with as much joy and laughter as possible with as little discomfort as possible.

 

[thaddeus]

I am going to start a new website on integrating loads of stuff into a short tai chi chuan form, too many people are hiding information, so I'm going to share all mine. Similar to yours I hope, something between a blog and a full site!

Would be interesting to read your ideas.

T

[thaddeus]

 

on another note, i'm just curious the reasons for wanting to learn practices such as iron shirt? is it for the coolness or 'wow' factor (which i will take as a valid reason, it would be cool to have an iron shirt) or is it for spiritual reasons?

 

Ultimately the only reason to learn anything is to ensure a longer and superior life so that one could produce more offspring. We can come up with all kinds of reasons that sound great including spiritual ones, but it usually boils down to that. Look how most of the 'spiritual' leaders are using spirituality as a means to become the alpha monkey who is banging all the followers. Not just spiritual..look at the martial arts instructors, teachers, religious leaders, etc. etc. that are using ploys to get more 'action'. My hat comes off to any true spiritual person who practices earnestly who is not competing for sex or favor in some way.

In the case of iron shirt, of course it won't protect you against an assailant. What it does is produce a superior state of health and increases sexual ability. This translates to more action.

Lol..now you can 'release the hounds' after that statement...

T

[Fireblood]

I want the following:

 

Health

 

Strength

 

Groundedness

 

Skill

 

Stability both physical and mental

 

Fluid movement

 

I'm integrating a lot of different practices to reach the goal of...

 

How do I put this in words?

 

The following words all rolled into one:

 

Fluidity of movement

 

When it happens it all happens all by itself

 

If I was was shooting an arrow from a bow, it would hit the mark and leave the bow all by itself

 

If I had a fight (defense) I wouldn't need to think about anything

 

If I was "free running" I would run and jump over anything in my way fluidly

 

If I was knocked to the floor I would fluidly roll back up onto my legs

 

To naturally do anything naturally? (Does that even make sense)?

 

Massive positive mental attitude...

 

Be a beacon to help others?

 

A whole lot more...

 

BODY & MIND & ENVIRONMENT INTEGRATION

 

I can't really explain it in words yet...There's something missing, we all have a massive potential, physically and mentally and we've been conditioned to be limited, I choose to break the barriers, to go beyond 'normality'. I don't know, perhaps I'm losing the plot LOL. anyhow there you have it.

 

Just wanted to emphasise the following words in my last post:

 

I'm integrating a lot of different practices

 

To reach the aforementioned goal (or goals?).

[turbo]

What it does is produce a superior state of health and increases sexual ability. This translates to more action.

Lol..now you can 'release the hounds' after that statement...

T

 

 

The reason I always heard for practicing it was to preserve the body to give more time on earth to pursue enlightenment. Also to purify the body to be able to handle the massive energies that occur at the purely energetic levels.

 

I guess the why really boils down to karma, dosent it?

[sean]

Ultimately the only reason to learn anything is to ensure a longer and superior life so that one could produce more offspring. We can come up with all kinds of reasons that sound great including spiritual ones, but it usually boils down to that. Look how most of the 'spiritual' leaders are using spirituality as a means to become the alpha monkey who is banging all the followers. Not just spiritual..look at the martial arts instructors, teachers, religious leaders, etc. etc. that are using ploys to get more 'action'. My hat comes off to any true spiritual person who practices earnestly who is not competing for sex or favor in some way.

In the case of iron shirt, of course it won't protect you against an assailant. What it does is produce a superior state of health and increases sexual ability. This translates to more action.

Lol..now you can 'release the hounds' after that statement...

IMO the things you are saying are true in a sense, but there is another level that I hope you are not excluding by remaining merely grounded. From Heaven's perspective, ultimately everything we do is rooted in a desire, often a blind desire, to return to what you might say is the primordial source of Desire and also it's only true satisfaction; God or the Tao. If I were to say I have an "ultimate goal" it would be this, to awaken to the Truth of who or what I am. I imagine this Truth will include the reality that I am a highly imperfect human being, and, like you say, possessing a body quite possibly hardwired to prioritize physiological health/survival and reproduction above all else. But bodies and selves come and go. I'd like to know who or what remains.

 

Sean

[thaddeus]

IMO the things you are saying are true in a sense, but there is another level that I hope you are not excluding by remaining merely grounded. From Heaven's perspective, ultimately everything we do is rooted in a desire, often a blind desire, to return to what you might say is the primordial source of Desire and also it's only true satisfaction; God or the Tao. If I were to say I have an "ultimate goal" it would be this, to awaken to the Truth of who or what I am. I imagine this Truth will include the reality that I am a highly imperfect human being, and, like you say, possessing a body quite possibly hardwired to prioritize physiological health/survival and reproduction above all else. But bodies and selves come and go. I'd like to know who or what remains.

 

Sean

I haven't had the pleasure to dream lucidly for awhile..mostly because of work and life demands. But I wonder if my lucid self somehow longs to awaken and if so, can I apply that knowledge to wakeup/return right now...hmmm food for thought..

Thanks sean,

T

[sean]

I haven't had the pleasure to dream lucidly for awhile..mostly because of work and life demands. But I wonder if my lucid self somehow longs to awaken and if so, can I apply that knowledge to wakeup/return right now...hmmm food for thought.

Lucid self, that is a great term. Did you make that up? It's exactly what I was getting at. Because the dream (that we currently call awake) is still there, but Now you are really awake in it.

[mYTHmAKER]

If I were to say I have an "ultimate goal" it would be this, to awaken to the Truth of who or what I am. I imagine this Truth will include the reality that I am a highly imperfect human being, and, like you say, possessing a body quite possibly hardwired to prioritize physiological health/survival and reproduction above all else.

 

 

The reality might be that you are a perfect human being - even if you are hardwired.

Difficult for us to believe - it's easier to believe we are imperfect.

Edited May 20, 2006 by mYTHmAKER

[sean]

The reality might be that you are a perfect human being - even if you are hardwired.

Difficult for us to believe - it's easier to believe we are imperfect.

It's funny, I just had a conversation with Cam today about this very thing. I actually do believe this is the reality, and I think awakening or enlightenment is not really an attainment of perfection it's the self-realization of everpresent perfection. I have no choice (it appears) but to operate from my current state of ignorance, so for me the process is one of allowing skillful means, let's say, to release my doubts currently occluding (or at least apparently occluding) my awakeness. Something like that.

 

Sean

[neimad]

The reality might be that you are a perfect human being - even if you are hardwired.

Difficult for us to believe - it's easier to believe we are imperfect.

 

 

this is my thoughts too...

 

 

but this then leads into the question:

how/why did we forget our true perfect, infinite nature?

 

i can come up with two possible answers myself.

 

1. it was a choice we made to have a 'human' experience, and a part of that was us giving up our true nature for a while as we play in the playground of this dimension.

 

2. when we took this incarnation, the dark-side (the opposite force to the god-force) set sneaky traps looking for us so when we came to this dimension to help raise it's vibrational level we had to wipe our memory first in order to stealthily infiltrate. this gives us the oppurtunity to then wake up and do the job we came here for.

(kind of like that movie "cypher" if any of you have seen it).

 

answer 1 supposes that every single person on this planet is in exactly the same boat.

 

answer 2 supposes that there is only a portion of people on this planet that are truly at this place to access themselves (although ultimately everything is made up of the same god-force) and thus become the 'white blood cells' to stave off the attack of the darkside.

 

it's a bit fantastic, i know.... but who can possibly tell what is truth in this crazy illusion!? (read my signature).

 

whichever one it is, i just go about my personal choice of deepening my own personal experience, it seems like its really the only thing one can do...... and hope that along the way perhaps i pick up this enlightenment business.

if not, at least i enjoyed myself on my visit here.

 

[sean]

[mYTHmAKER]

It's funny, I just had a conversation with Cam today about this very thing. I actually do believe this is the reality, and I think awakening or enlightenment is not really an attainment of perfection it's the self-realization of everpresent perfection. I have no choice (it appears) but to operate from my current state of ignorance, so for me the process is one of allowing skillful means, let's say, to release my doubts currently occluding (or at least apparently occluding) my awakeness. Something like that.

Sean

 

It is our mind that makes distinctions. When there is no mind there are no distinctions and everything is

as it is. That is the perfection - the peace.

All the practices are means to trancending the mind - stopping the mind.

There is a philosophy called Kashmir Shavism.

To keep it simple. This universe is the body of god. God being whatever you want to call it.

So if this is true everything in the universe, animate, inanimate is made of god. There is nothing that is not made of god. Rock, dog, wife, friend,enemy, flower. car, etc

Therefore you also are made of god and everyone you know and don't know is god.

We live in the body of god and are of god.

So how can anything not be perfection.

[sean]

It is our mind that makes distinctions. When there is no mind there are no distinctions and everything is

as it is. That is the perfection - the peace.

All the practices are means to trancending the mind - stopping the mind.

There is a philosophy called Kashmir Shavism.

To keep it simple. This universe is the body of god. God being whatever you want to call it.

So if this is true everything in the universe, animate, inanimate is made of god. There is nothing that is not made of god. Rock, dog, wife, friend,enemy, flower. car, etc

Therefore you also are made of god and everyone you know and don't know is god.

We live in the body of god and are of god.

So how can anything not be perfection.

And even our mind making distinctions is a part of this Great Perfection, not separate from it. And even what is truly truly evil and that we must always reject as such is part of this Great Perfection. And even this apparent sense of being lost and ignorant and in the dark, and having to seek a Truth we initially imagine is separate only to finally awaken to enlightenment, which is paradoxically a simple noticing of what was there all along, every step of this whole process is part of the Great Perfection.

 

Kashmir Shaivism is very close to my heart.

 

Sean

[Fireblood]

I don't usually go into discussions on religion. but for me this is (at least part of) the reality.

 

You wake up in a dark room, you don't remember anything. The first questions you may ask are:

 

1. Who am I?

2. Where am I?

3. How did I get here? / Who put me here?

4. How do I get out? Is there an out?

 

If life is a search for truth, then it is the answer to those questions.

 

Anyhow, for me this is pure raw reality, it has to be tackled head on, on a daily basis.

 

But I don't personally think that everything is God. Everything we know in the universe is limited and finite, everything we have seen so far at least. I'm mean from a scientific/logical perspective. I only look at alchemical practices as a biological phenomenon yet to be pinned down / scientifically described. I know it's a very dry attitude!

 

But I do believe in God.

 

Anyhow that's moi.

[neimad]

Edited May 20, 2006 by neimad