Free Speech and Moderator Action

[C T]

[devoid]

Recently I had a discussion with Mal in regards to moderator action on this forum. I was making quires as to why my questions are ignored or given vague answers. I was told the moderators are shaping discussions to add value. When I asked how value is defined in this context, I was given no satisfactory answer. If the moderators have some vague idea that manipulating discussions add value, then there must be personal biases in determining value in a given context.

 

The recent banishment of Raymond Wolter "cheerleader" remark, was never given a satisfactory answer as to cause. I suspect there may be a cultural misunderstanding. However, that is no excuse, given the vast resources of the internet to arrive at a better understanding of a term in a given context.

 

When I inquired as to the reasons for my banishment this summer, I was told that I was disturbing the valued members on this forum. Huh? What does that mean? Who are the valued members? I was ignored as usual.

 

The attitude toward me was that I needed to be banished to have time to think and ponder the error of my ways.

 

Has this forum turned into a money making enterprise that will trump free speech? Again, who are the valued members?

 

 

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/16216-ttb-reputation-system/page__st__80

 

Hi ralis,

 

I want to say that I for one think the moderators are adding a lot of value by trying their best to ensure that we adhere to thetaobum's set of guidelines on etiquette and behavior on this site.

 

I am grateful for their services, which are even unpaid other than in kind.

 

To put forum moderation into perspective, on other sites you constantly see people getting bullied and run over just because their opinion differs from those louder than themselves. Although perhaps a symbolic encroachment, I don't see how that's necessarily an insult to free speech - not moderating is certainly an insult to those being bullied.

 

Back to the question of personal vanity: Why me? is always the question most central to the ego: I don't know (as I am not a moderator) - I don't know why you were given time out and frankly speaking I don't want to know either. What I do think is nice however, is that if one is given time out one may still come back to contribute instead of having been barred for good. As such, it's good to have you back on board (even if all we may be able to agree on is to disagree )

[Mal]

thanks Alfred E

 

I think Ralis is overdue an honorable explanation yes?

 

Well the reason I said it's an important topic in the other thread is that I want to give Ralis an explanation. Yet, as I often find with Ralis, I struggle to answer his questions with anything approaching a meaningful response.

 

Recently I had a discussion with Mal in regards to moderator action on this forum. I was making quires as to why my questions are ignored or given vague answers. I was told the moderators are shaping discussions to add value. When I asked how value is defined in this context, I was given no satisfactory answer. If the moderators have some vague idea that manipulating discussions add value, then there must be personal biases in determining value in a given context.

 

..... well as I have no set rules for defining value I basically agree (although SZ was well on the money with his quote that I used in post #24)

 

The recent banishment of Raymond Wolter "cheerleader" remark, was never given a satisfactory answer as to cause. I suspect there may be a cultural misunderstanding. However, that is no excuse, given the vast resources of the internet to arrive at a better understanding of a term in a given context.

 

In the context used, it was my opinion that RW intended to be insulting to Cat. I had the ability to invoke a range of actions up to suspending him from posting for 7 days. Some people don't agree with my opinion or actions in that matter and I can understand that as it was always going to be a controversial decision.

 

When I inquired as to the reasons for my banishment this summer, I was told that I was disturbing the valued members on this forum. Huh? What does that mean? Who are the valued members? I was ignored as usual.

 

The attitude toward me was that I needed to be banished to have time to think and ponder the error of my ways.

 

Yes. IIRC at the time we (moderators) were in discussion with yourself SODE and Varj to see if we could find a way to smooth out the personal interactions that were occurring at the time (or were you refering to another issue)

 

Has this forum turned into a money making enterprise that will trump free speech? Again, who are the valued members?

 

If you want a checklist of determining valued members, I do not have one. But I fail to see how aiming to enforce a policy of "No personal insults" adversely affects free speech?

[Procurator]

Oh for goodness sakes see it in the humorous context in which it was was intended Seriously, here you are whinging about "stifling atmosphere" and "freedom of speech" and then start then jumping all over my words trying to draw implications when there are none.

 

And your words say alot as well. Notice how you wouldn't address me directly instead addressing me as "them" ... this isn't an "us vs them" situation.

Stig i did not address you directly precisely because its not your personal problem. its mods problem as a group. something went very wrong with you guys.

 

between your "half-wits ..toilet..garbage"; mal's considering "cheerleader" an insult (wtf?); taomeow creepy "sword sheethed..unsheethed..half-sheethed" it is precisely you guys against us.

 

you see, we dont like to feel that we are potential half-wits or varmint to be skewered. there are already 7-8 ppl who raised their voices, guess how many are unhappy but just to passive to say something?

 

you guys have succeded in creating a toxic enviroment, that is the long and short of it.

[Alfred E]

WoW ! I just discovered that there is still the IGY Button !

 

No Need for (adjetive deleted) Moderators !

 

Actually, I was just reading my Tarot cards and they told me that the real reason for the moderators was to see that the Bums didn't post any Liability problems for the website.

That - I can understand.

Edited November 22, 2010 by Alfred E

[Apech]

Stig i did not address you directly precisely because its not your personal problem. its mods problem as a group. something went very wrong with you guys.

 

between your "half-wits ..toilet..garbage"; mal's considering "cheerleader" an insult (wtf?); taomeow creepy "sword sheethed..unsheethed..half-sheethed" it is precisely you guys against us.

 

you see, we dont like to feel that we are potential half-wits or varmint to be skewered. there are already 7-8 ppl who raised their voices, guess how many are unhappy but just to passive to say something?

 

you guys have succeded in creating a toxic enviroment, that is the long and short of it.

 

There's voices in favour of moderation also.

 

The moderation is done in accordance with published rules. I don't relate to this 'toxic environment' can you explain more?

[devoid]

Stig i did not address you directly precisely because its not your personal problem. its mods problem as a group. something went very wrong with you guys.

 

between your "half-wits ..toilet..garbage"; mal's considering "cheerleader" an insult (wtf?); taomeow creepy "sword sheethed..unsheethed..half-sheethed" it is precisely you guys against us.

 

you see, we dont like to feel that we are potential half-wits or varmint to be skewered. there are already 7-8 ppl who raised their voices, guess how many are unhappy but just to passive to say something?

 

you guys have succeded in creating a toxic enviroment, that is the long and short of it.

 

TianShi,

 

Just because a group of members raise their opinions loudly doesn't mean that it is representative of the Forum (or of the non-moderator members of the forum, for that matter).

 

As an example I am no moderator, yet I am in disagreement with the general picture you paint of TTB moderator members vs. TTB regular members.

[Alfred E]

TianShi,

 

Just because a group of members raise their opinions loudly doesn't mean that it is representative of the Forum (or of the non-moderator members of the forum, for that matter).

 

As an example I am no moderator, yet I am in disagreement with the general picture you paint of TTB moderator members vs. TTB regular members.

How do we know that you are not just one of the 'Shapings' that the moderators put in place to create the 'harmonous' enviornment that they desire ?

[Alfred E]

There's voices in favour of moderation also.

 

The moderation is done in accordance with published rules. I don't relate to this 'toxic environment' can you explain more?

Apech, I only see the term 'toxic enviornment' used in your post - maybe you can explain...?

[Apech]

Apech, I only see the term 'toxic enviornment' used in your post - maybe you can explain...?

 

Tianshi used this expression in his post (which I quoted) and my query was addressed to him.

[Stigweard]

Stig i did not address you directly precisely because its not your personal problem. its mods problem as a group. something went very wrong with you guys.

 

between your "half-wits ..toilet..garbage"; mal's considering "cheerleader" an insult (wtf?); taomeow creepy "sword sheethed..unsheethed..half-sheethed" it is precisely you guys against us.

 

you see, we dont like to feel that we are potential half-wits or varmint to be skewered. there are already 7-8 ppl who raised their voices, guess how many are unhappy but just to passive to say something?

 

you guys have succeded in creating a toxic enviroment, that is the long and short of it.

 

Not my personal problem? hmmm...

 

You are saying in very direct terms that "there is something wrong with me", that I have "created a toxic environment". How is that "not my personal problem"?

 

But I will take myself to task on something you said. I admit it was ill-considered of me to make comments that imply that people who get moderated might be considered "trash" or "half-witted". Though it was truly said in jest, it was my error of not thinking well enough on how that might be taken.

 

So I most humbly apologize for my insensitivity and, if anyone was offended, I sincerely ask for your forgiveness.

 

But to return to the issue. Firstly I want to thank those who have posted their discontent in this topic. That you are discussing the issue means that you care enough about TaoBums to voice your concerns.

 

Let's deal with reality here.

 

TaoBums is a moderated forum with a team of moderators who follow these Moderation Guidelines. No one has taken the opportunity to voice their opposition to the contents of those guidelines so I am going to assume that they are acceptable to the significant majority (once again I open the floor to discuss those guidelines in that thread).

 

TaoBums is going to remain a moderated forum for the foreseeable future.

 

The TaoBum moderators, being ordinary members who have volunteered to provide a service, have and will continue to do their best to uphold those guidelines.

 

The TaoBum moderators are human and most definitely will screw up from time to time.

 

The TaoBum moderators will take responsibility for their actions and will accept being held accountable for screw ups IF it is clear that they have indeed screwed up.

 

To that last point, if anyone has an issue with anything I have done personally as a moderator then let's have it out here and now.

 

[Alfred E]

 

Not my personal problem? hmmm...

 

You are saying in very direct terms that "there is something wrong with me", that I have "created a toxic environment". How is that "not my personal problem"?

 

But I will take myself to task on something you said. I admit it was ill-considered of me to make comments that imply that people who get moderated might be considered "trash" or "half-witted". Though it was truly said in jest, it was my error of not thinking well enough on how that might be taken.

 

So I most humbly apologize for my insensitivity and, if anyone was offended, I sincerely ask for your forgiveness.

 

But to return to the issue. Firstly I want to thank those who have posted their discontent in this topic. That you are discussing the issue means that you care enough about TaoBums to voice your concerns.

 

Let's deal with reality here.

 

TaoBums is a moderated forum with a team of moderators who follow these Moderation Guidelines. No one has taken the opportunity to voice their opposition to the contents of those guidelines so I am going to assume that they are acceptable to the significant majority (once again I open the floor to discuss those guidelines in that thread).

 

TaoBums is going to remain a moderated forum for the foreseeable future.

 

The TaoBum moderators, being ordinary members who have volunteered to provide a service, have and will continue to do their best to uphold those guidelines.

 

The TaoBum moderators are human and most definitely will screw up from time to time.

 

The TaoBum moderators will take responsibility for their actions and will accept being held accountable for screw ups IF it is clear that they have indeed screwed up.

 

To that last point, if anyone has an issue with anything I have done personally as a moderator then let's have it out here and now.

 

The poor me thing is getting old really quick.

read my previous post to see my view.

We all are Volunteers.

 

It seems that some have a 'need' to play police/tyrant/dictator.

All have rules to follow to gratify their needs -the sad part is that all 3 are death wish - gratifications.

Please read the first paragraph of this Link: My link

[idquest]

There are rules and there are judges. You can't squeeze life in any set of rules this is why we need judges.

 

Taobums moderators are judges and I respect their work in this capacity. I think they are doing great job.

 

A question to Afred E: Did you create this account with the only purpose to personally attack the moderators? Really? Is it worth it? How do you feel now?

[rookie]

I issue a challenge to all moderators to check your motives, and then publicly post them.

I don't even know who all of you are, and I don't come here often enough to care much at this point.

But there is something I see happening that possibly you do not because, well, you are too close to yourself lol.

 

I want to point out one glaring inconsistency.

Stig, you were the first to jump on Seans original post to volunteer to be a moderator.

I get the sense that you really like doing it. The challenge to you is to resign as a moderator.

If you complain about having to do it, or that it is a burden, and yet you were obviously the most eager to take on the role, then why not step aside?

Or are you too attached to the control it gives you?

 

I sense some passive-agressive tendencies there.

This board does not need you.

There seems to be a new moderator every time I log on.

Term limits on moderators may be a really good idea too.

Or do you guys feel you are above everyone else here?

 

Try it out. Do this to check yourself.

 

 

One other thing. Sean may be the owner, and a few have been given special powers to control the tone and content of the board, but this board is the community. And in my opinion it has gone way too far in the opposite direction after all the kunlun fighting and all that.

 

The challenge is there to all moderators.

See if you can walk away from it.

Don't ever complain. Just walk away from the power.

 

By the way Stig, I rather like you most of the time. I think you are a little blind to what you are doing just now.

[devoid]

How do we know that you are not just one of the 'Shapings' that the moderators put in place to create the 'harmonous' enviornment that they desire ?

 

Probably because my account wasn't set up only a few days ago (10-Nov-2010)

 

But now that you brought it up I would love to hear who got barred just before that or to know who of our fellow members decided that he or she needed a cover account to support their own views...? I can certainly see how that is a convenient way to support the ego and circumvent the rules

[TheTaoBum]

People need to be a bit more thick skinned on here. This reminds me of grade school when people run & tell the teacher if your naughty lol.

 

I dont care if im cursed at (on a forum) as im an adult and live in the real world - where insults and criticism are part of the parcel. Its a case of sink or swim for the whingers.

 

The first step to being a real man/woman is to begin displaying the qualities of one. If your gonna complain about everything & run to moderators for help over something so petty as name calling,then you need to start training a bit harder.

 

Im 100% sure the moderators dont want to moderate so fiercly....but when your getting drowned with all these petty complaints day in day out, then what else are they supposed to do ? They are required to act,regardless how silly it may seem at times.

 

So you guys........unless its like "Way Serious"........please leave the MODS alone as they are flat out as it stands. The taobums has always been non political and non judgemental and was mostly unmoderated at one stage........but if complaints about trivial matters do not desist, then this forum and all it stands for will be gone forever.

 

Iam however opposed to the deletion of my links & the ban of scribd,rapidshare,megaupload here. Theres certainly a hidden agenda there and i dont buy the copyright excuse for 1 second.

 

Thanks

Edited November 22, 2010 by TheTaoBum

[Stigweard]

I issue a challenge to all moderators to check your motives, and then publicly post them.

I don't even know who all of you are, and I don't come here often enough to care much at this point.

But there is something I see happening that possibly you do not because, well, you are too close to yourself lol.

 

I want to point out one glaring inconsistency.

Stig, you were the first to jump on Seans original post to volunteer to be a moderator.

I get the sense that you really like doing it. The challenge to you is to resign as a moderator.

If you complain about having to do it, or that it is a burden, and yet you were obviously the most eager to take on the role, then why not step aside?

Or are you too attached to the control it gives you?

 

I sense some passive-agressive tendencies there.

This board does not need you.

There seems to be a new moderator every time I log on.

Term limits on moderators may be a really good idea too.

Or do you guys feel you are above everyone else here?

 

Try it out. Do this to check yourself.

 

 

One other thing. Sean may be the owner, and a few have been given special powers to control the tone and content of the board, but this board is the community. And in my opinion it has gone way too far in the opposite direction after all the kunlun fighting and all that.

 

The challenge is there to all moderators.

See if you can walk away from it.

Don't ever complain. Just walk away from the power.

 

By the way Stig, I rather like you most of the time. I think you are a little blind to what you are doing just now.

 

Actually resigning would be the easy option to take wouldn't it? I also think it would be the truly selfish option as well because I would be doing it either to prove that I am not attached to the role or because I didn't want the "burden" of the responsibility nor the scrutiny and criticism that comes with it.

 

And if I did resign would that improve anything for the community? Would that actually solve the issues being presented in this thread?

 

Nope, the issue would still be there. That would mean that whoever picked up the ball next would be loaded with the same "burden" without the experience behind them.

 

I would also be abdicating responsibility for the situation. The mere fact that I am part of the moderation team means that I am part of the "problem" that certain people are taking issue with. As far as I am concerned it would be the cowards way out to not stand up and hold myself accountable; I would be just passing the buck off to someone else.

 

If I thought resigning would benefit the community the most then sure, I'd resign in an instant. Please take my word on that.

 

Moderation isn't about power or privilege to me, but I will admit that I have a selfish motive. You see for me its about the growth and development that its forcing me to undergo. Just as one example, look at the scrutiny I have opened myself up to in this thread -- every barb and every cutting remark is another blow against my self-importance. I am getting like a year's worth of introspection in just one topic. Valuable stuff!

 

But the issue here is not "who" is a moderator, the main issues I see here is both that there is moderation of TaoBums in the first place and also some limited cases of how it has been delivered.

 

To the first issue I think folks just need to get over the fact that TaoBums is now a moderated forum. We have a set of Moderation Guidelines that is open to full scrutiny, criticism, and amendment. And we have a small team of folks who do their best to monitor and uphold those guidelines.

 

That's just the way it is ... deal with it.

 

The issue of how moderation is being delivered is perhaps the only issue that can be discussed.

 

I will admit I have personally made mistakes. There were times when I have lost my objectivity. There were times when I have allowed personal feelings and opinions cloud my judgement. There were times when I took action when I shouldn't have. There were times when I did nothing when I should have taken action.

 

I have made mistakes and I take responsibility, hold myself accountable, and sincerely apologize for each and every one of those mistakes.

 

But let's be honest with each other here, I think another issue that needs to be discussed here is the personal responsibility and accountability of the members who are raising these issues.

 

The onus was placed on me to be truly honest and open with my motives as a moderator, and my entire record is open for inspection and criticism.

 

Are the detractors willing to do the same?

 

How many of the critics are members who have instigated, through their behavior, the need for moderators to take action against them? Are you willing to have your record laid bare for public inspection in the same way that is demanded of us?

 

I think a bit of honesty both ways might help the issue as well.

 

So the question is: "Where to from here?"

 

[Marblehead]

Thanksgiving is due... happy holidays Folks!

 

Good try CowTao. Hehehe.

 

But thanks! Same back at cha! And to all others as well!

[Apech]

Just in case anyone reading this thread is under the impression that the moderation team is secret ... if you go to the main page and click on 'the moderation team' near the bottom of the page ... it will tell you who they are and also what they doing.

[Ray Wolter]

Ralis is our local curmudgeon and speaks what needs to be said many times. To have a heavy handed moderated happy little group here is akin to the Sunday Afternoon Ladies Taoist Garden Club, which is what some of the Love and Light crowd would like to have. The shadow, as exemplified by the fights we have here and sometimes by comments made by ralis and various members is our shadow being voiced. Communities that deny the shadow always fall prey to it later, as shown by numerous spiritual communities that never allow open and free speech, including criticism of the guru.

 

Raymond Wolter was banned after he said Cat was "a cheerleader for KAP", causing Cat to yowl and spit and complain to the mods like someone had stepped on her tail, so Raymond got banned. If Cat hadn't made such a fuss to the moderators, he wouldn't have been banned, simple as that. And that comment would have been long forgotten instead of us still talking about Cat the Cheerleader months later. (When I brought it up recently, Mal told me I was living in the past). I see it as discussing inconsistent and unresolved moderation issues.

 

Meanwhile, one member called another "a piece of work" and that wasn't deemed insulting. I imagine if Vajra complained to the mods instead of swatting back at everyone, others would get banned.

 

 

I did not want to come back here ever, I even forgot my old credentials but had to say this. The issue was not about being warned or not. The issue was about the Moderator's personal relationships with people affecting his judgment. When I called the fussy lady 'Cheerleader', I did so because she was cheerleading for KAP which was being advertised to the point of ad nauseum here. It was a fact and was neither a personal insult or name calling. It was like calling someone who debates a debater. The moderator in this case chose to ban me because of his association with KAP and because of his personal relationship with Cat as a friend, which he himself admitted. And he consulted his girlfriend on this matter and banned me because she thought so. Cat, girlfriend and his own association with KAP and Santiago was what led to my ban. Is this an example of moderators doing a good job? Now the issue is being swept under the carpet as being a controversial decision or a case where no warning was issued. But Santiago and Cat got away calling others idiots, pussy and more because they are in the list of "valued" members? I protested to the usage of such words which I thought was sexual objectification of women and no one had a problem then. But cheerleader was deemed to be an insult beyond measure because Cat and someone's girlfriend thought so? Or it was just that the moderator's loyalty to his teacher that caused him to eject me of the forum? I had valid questions, which the KAP crowd chose to ignore anyway. Now, I did insult one person albeit not intentionally and that was CowTao. He did respond to me like a gentleman that he truly is (CowTao, I have been meaning to apologize for that, but haven't been back here. I see that you truly do walk your path and have cultivated compassion) but I was not banned for that..Reason probably is that he is not in the let's-pat-each-other's back club of "valued" members or in the cheerleading group for one of the advertisers here. I don't have an issue with moderators, but how many of these moderators are doing a just job without their own personal prejudices coming in the way of their moderating exercise? While I thought I was questioning ShaktiMama and Santiago for their misrepresentation of Kundalini and commercialization and unproven claims, the moderator due to his personal association with the same group decided it was insulting and decided to ban me. If one reads the same thread, there has been much more severe name calling, insults etc. If the person who reported me was not Cat and the topic was not against KAP, I bet the moderator would not have noticed anything insulting in my post. So, when a moderator bans someone the most that can happen is a long discussion. And then what? He returns to doing the same again? A lot of people spoke against my ban and what happened? Nothing... So the conclusion is that Moderators are Super Gods here. They do what they want. Bye.

 

Edit: Stig, thanks for considering my request to unregister me from the forum.

Edited November 22, 2010 by Ray Wolter

[strawdog65]

Hello to everyone.

 

 

Since I am very new to this forum, I'd like to

offer the view from where I sit.

 

I certainly hope that no one here is expected to be

perfect in all ways. Myself, I am very imperfect.

 

I like the fact that when a person makes a mistake,

they own up to it.

 

I personally do not have the history on this forum

that many of you have. I would venture to say, regardless

of that fact, that my small opinion still can still be

of use.( I hope!)

 

 

I think that we all expect too much.

 

 

Those of us on either side of the argument, expect this

moderator to always uphold our own personal view of what

ever the situation may be.

 

We do this subconsciously, and without taking a close up

look at our own reasons for being unhappy with

anyone else's decision making process.

 

We are not being fair or rational when this occurs.

 

I do not see the need to change moderators.

I do not see how punishing, or using the feeling

of guilt to prod someone into action, is a path of virtue.

 

When we are actively and knowingly, creating discord

and purposeful suffering in others, someone should step

in and remind others to stop getting in the way of the WAY.

 

 

Lets take the higher road of seeing that the very reason

we become upset, is because we have too great of an attachment

to the outcome of the situation...by our expectations

of what we perceive to be the right course.

 

We are all part of the same...

 

 

Peace to everyone.

[Mal]

Well it's good to see almost everyone that I've managed to offended in the one place.

 

If the person who reported me was not Cat and the topic was not against KAP, I bet the moderator would not have noticed anything insulting in my post.

 

Yes, if you were not reported it's almost certain nothing would have happened. I must ask, as you maintain that you did not intend to insult Cat. Does the fact that your post WAS taken as insulting, and DID offend a forum member, make any difference to you at all?

[Aetherous]

It blows my mind, Mal, how you can still support your decision of the cheerleader incident. Completely blows my mind.

[C T]

It blows my mind, Mal, how you can still support your decision of the cheerleader incident. Completely blows my mind.

ditto.

[forestofclarity]

I'm stunned that people take this so seriously. This is a forum, not a community that we are forced to live in. Are we seriously comparing internet forum moderators to dictators who control all aspects of people's lives and can kill or torture human beings on a whim? If people think that moderators have some sort of power because they can control internet postings or ban screen names, then it sounds like they need to spend some time off-line to re-ground.