Free Speech and Moderator Action

[Alfred E]

 

How many of the critics are members who have instigated, through their behavior, the need for moderators to take action against them? Are you willing to have your record laid bare for public inspection in the same way that is demanded of us?

 

I think a bit of honesty both ways might help the issue as well.

 

So the question is: "Where to from here?"

 

I would think that if an accurate time line of the member's actions "before the banning" were used and the action's after the banning - as in the Reaction to the banning - The point of dispute which many are continuing today -left out- it would be reasonable. The point of dispute is obvious as Reactions to the Banning continue today.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

Ineveiably the "Where to from here" must be seen as an evolutionary move to learn from our mistakes.

***

To me, the issue is not the moderators but the method. The method implies personal revenge.

***

Also:The ignore option takes the place of moderators.

 

All that is needed for moderating is for the individual to use the 'Ignore' option.

 

So - Why the moderators?

Edited November 23, 2010 by Alfred E

[TheTaoBum]

One more thing,

 

Although i disagree with some policies, overall i think the Moderators are very fair & lenient here.Theres times i know i went too far, but i was kindly overlooked by whoever.

 

Its not so much the word "Cheerleader" but rather the way it may have been used that caused a stir ? (not that i seen the discussion)

 

I think if used with good humour the moderators here would and often do give plenty of slack.

 

Thanks.

[de_paradise]

I am pro-mod, and I lean towards the tougher side, and dont mind that they are sometimes biased towards people who bring alot to the table. This is because it sometimes takes only one nasty remark to spoil the soup, and there is always someone that wants to prove themselves in a game of one-upmanship by taking issue at some minor point or by goading. Good posters become good posters by contribution. This isnt high school debate club. Experiential knowlege is rare and if there were a non-confrontational environment, we would see people more willing to share, and more high level teachers take an interest. But it has come to the point that most sincere contributors are not thanked by attacked. If you are a public teacher, posting on the bums is taking your own reputation at risk due to lack of respect and mud-flinging by anonymous kids who are not bounded by anything but their own ego.

 

"Cheerleader", while an innocuous term on the surface is calling the person insincere or a liar or sycophant. Cat isnt a student of KAP, but respects KAP, like me, for what they are doing, and that Glenn Morris was able to find the knowlege and create a school. Now if someone were to call you insincere, a liar, a sycophant, would you go to their level of name calling? Or would you try to logicially persuade them, when you know that their emotially driven, ego-driven arguement will just find another way to mud-sling, to vamp your energy. Or would you just call in the mods?

[Aetherous]

"Cheerleader", while an innocuous term on the surface is calling the person insincere or a liar or sycophant.

 

I don't see how it is, at all. To me it just means that you are vocally supportive of something...which is the way it was originally used.

[Gerard]

What I see is that the quality of the topics discussed and what is discussed is going downhill because of a bunch of "enlightened" users who get away with their constant trolling, subtle and overt attacks, post-filling technique, and lack of "real" spiritual experience and guidance.

 

Ramon25, orb, goldisheavy, sloppy zhang, ralis, marblehead, thesongsofdistantearth are just some names that spring to my mind.

 

If Tao Bums wants quality instead of quantity correct moderation should be applied asap.

 

I am still staying but will be careful with some of the information I can provide because most of the users here are not ready for it, and honestly I am tired of personal attacks that only leave me with the feeling that maybe I am wasting my time by giving quality information to people who would really appreciate it.

 

Is this perhaps the reason why some spiritual practitioners leave the world behind or teach secretly because humans are not ready for these teachings? Only time will tell.

 

 

Edited: typing errors

Edited November 23, 2010 by Gerard

[de_paradise]

I don't see how it is, at all. To me it just means that you are vocally supportive of something...which is the way it was originally used.

 

"One who expresses or promotes thoughtless praise; an adulator."

 

Read more: http://www.answers.com/topic/cheerleader#ixzz1641V74kb

 

Do you not get the insincerity meaning?

[Apech]

 

 

Ramon25, orb, goldisheavy, sloppy zhang, ralis, marblehead, thesongsofdistantearth are just some names that spring to my mind.

 

 

 

Errrr marblehead ???? respected by everyone as far as I can see.

[Mal]

It blows my mind, Mal, how you can still support your decision of the cheerleader incident. Completely blows my mind.

 

Well what else can/should I say Scotty? It would certainly be easier for me lie and say I think it was the wrong decision. In hindsight it has caused confusion and issues. I've read the feedback over time and I've mentioned that a suspension out of the blue tends to sturr up people more than help the situation.

 

But yes, I still feel it was the right decision at that time because someone asked for help. So I tried my best to help them.

[strawdog65]

What I see is that the quality of the topics discussed and what is discussed is going downhill because of a bunch of "enlightened" users who get away with their constant trolling, subtle and overt attacks, post-filling technique, and lack of "real" spiritual experience and guidance.

 

Ramon25, orb, goldisheavy, sloppy zhang, ralis, marblehead, thesongsofdistantearth are just some names that spring to my mind.

 

If Tao Bums wants quality instead of quantity correct moderation should be applied asap.

 

I am still staying but will be careful with some of the information I can provide because most of the users here are not ready for it, and honestly I am tired of personal attacks that only leave me with the feeling that maybe I am wasting my time by giving quality information to people who would really appreciate it.

 

Is this perhaps the reason why some spiritual practitioners leave the world behind or teach secretly because humans are not ready for these teachings? Only time will tell.

 

 

Edited: typing errors

 

 

Gerard,

 

I for one am sorry to hear that. I am genuinely

interested in learning and growing from this forum.

 

The moderators are doing the best they are able, I'm

sure that things will improve, if we allow it.

 

We should agree to not accept comments that are of

no usefulness and serve no purpose to learning.

 

I will listen openly, if you wish to share.

 

Peace and understanding!

[Aetherous]

"One who expresses or promotes thoughtless praise; an adulator."

 

Read more: http://www.answers.c...r#ixzz1641V74kb

 

Do you not get the insincerity meaning?

 

Sure, I can see that as well. But do I think it's moderation-worthy, even if it was meant in that way? Nope.

 

Anyway that incident is basically the only thing that really confuses me about the moderation here. Other than that I think they're fairly invisible, and helpful. Also, I like each moderator personally (not like that fact matters).

 

[Sloppy Zhang]

What I see is that the quality of the topics discussed and what is discussed is going downhill because of a bunch of "enlightened" users who get away with their constant trolling, subtle and overt attacks, post-filling technique, and lack of "real" spiritual experience and guidance.

 

Ramon25, orb, goldisheavy, sloppy zhang, ralis, marblehead, thesongsofdistantearth are just some names that spring to my mind.

 

If Tao Bums wants quality instead of quantity correct moderation should be applied asap.

 

I am still staying but will be careful with some of the information I can provide because most of the users here are not ready for it, and honestly I am tired of personal attacks that only leave me with the feeling that maybe I am wasting my time by giving quality information to people who would really appreciate it.

 

Is this perhaps the reason why some spiritual practitioners leave the world behind or teach secretly because humans are not ready for these teachings? Only time will tell.

 

 

Edited: typing errors

 

Moderation should not be based on who is supposedly "enlightened", who brings "quality", or anything of the sort, as that is entirely opinionated. I find it interesting that you decided to specifically call out certain people, as some members on that list (goldisheavy and ralis are two prime examples) contribute INCREDIBLY thoughtful and insightful posts to this forum consistently.... however...

 

Where is the problem with the members I've named?

 

They bring an unpopular perspective. Sometimes it can be direct and abrasive, sure. But that does not lessen the quality of their posts! And it CERTAINLY does not necessitate any censorship or removal of posts!

 

You could just as easily add yourself to the list, because while you provide interesting insights, one first has to get past your condescending tone before finding anything of value!

 

Somehow you've assigned yourself the role of spiritual barometer, letting us all know how high or low we are on a measure of spiritual growth and value, and somehow you seem to believe that moderation should be based on that.

 

 

However, since there is no legitimate way of verifying it, perceived spiritual advancement (or lack thereof), should not be the standard for moderation. And I do not think it is.

 

I really do like the moderation here. I too am not too hot about the "cheerleader comment" thing, because, well, there are a LOT of different ways different meanings can be gotten from one term, and, well, I guess it's too late now, anyway.

 

Moderation I think should be the last step taken, and only in situations in which direct negative attacks are carried out, and I think I should add on a consistent basis.

 

For example, Gerard's post above spoke directly about certain members, and I responded directly to another member. Technically, you could say that it is no longer discussing ideas, but discussing people, and may require moderator action. But I do not think that I launched any sort of personal attack on Gerard, and I do not take Gerard's post to be a personal attack (at least in my case as one of the name's mentioned, and I am greatly honored to be included in that list, as all of the other people are great people and great contributors to this forum in general, as is Gerard, so I'm glad he thought of me along with them!). It was an opinion on certain members here, and everyone is entitled to their opinion. I'm not bothered by it, and hopefully Gerard is not bothered by mine. I'm not bothered by the expression of another member's opinion, and I certainly hope that another member is not bothered by mine.

 

But if two+ people consistently started launching personal attacks at people consistently across several threads, well, that could require action.

Edited November 23, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[Sloppy Zhang]

We should agree to not accept comments that are of

no usefulness and serve no purpose to learning.

 

Perhaps you should look more closely into a comment before just saying, "ah, this is obviously of no usefulness and serves no purpose to learning!" Perhaps examine why you say that? Perhaps examine the motivations for the person saying that? Perhaps learn a little bit about the person? Perhaps examine yourself and what about it you don't like? The reaction and thoughts it provokes in you? Why that's the case?

 

If we just "don't accept" things that we don't like because of a perceived lack of value, well that's not learning, that's just selectively picking things that reinforce whatever your current view is.

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

ditto.

tritto.

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

If my oft-humorous posts and ripostes are seen as trolling, I am sorry El Gerardo. I can't help myself.

 

 

 

Plus, I think the mods are doing a good job, with the exception of Cat being called out on being a cheerleader for KAP, which she was being, which is not an insult. If Mal will say he was in the wrong, I will send him a case of Pu-erh.

 

 

P.S., Gerard, unwind yourself a few turns, it'll feel better.

Edited November 23, 2010 by TheSongsofDistantEarth

[Procurator]

tritto.

quatritto

[Procurator]

I'm stunned that people take this so seriously. This is a forum, not a community that we are forced to live in. Are we seriously comparing internet forum moderators to dictators who control all aspects of people's lives and can kill or torture human beings on a whim?

 

yes. the scope is petty-but the craving is the same, to impose own will on others for fun and profit.

 

the dictators usually mask that craving by : " i put you in concentration camp to reform for your own good"

 

the mods on the other hand...

 

 

 

If people think that moderators have some sort of power because they can control internet postings or ban screen names, then it sounds like they need to spend some time off-line to re-ground.

 

bingo!

[Aetherous]

Mal, I missed your post for some reason...

 

Well what else can/should I say Scotty? It would certainly be easier for me lie and say I think it was the wrong decision. In hindsight it has caused confusion and issues. I've read the feedback over time and I've mentioned that a suspension out of the blue tends to sturr up people more than help the situation.

 

But yes, I still feel it was the right decision at that time because someone asked for help. So I tried my best to help them.

 

I don't expect or need anything from you...but it just makes no sense to me how people can make choices without listening to others, and analyzing their own actions fully. When many people are saying "you were wrong", at least personally I'd start to wonder if I really was...

 

If a moderator is biased about an issue, they should simply pass it onto another team member. Making a biased decision not only makes yourself look bad, it makes the entire moderating team look bad. Then we get more of these threads, where we talk about forum politics and eachother's imperfections, instead of talking about Taoism.

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

Just because a member took offense at an innocuous remark is no reason to ban someone, Mal. It means there are no objective standards by which you are moderating. And how ironic that the "Cat is a cheerleader" meme has been repeated over and over in discussion, when the thing to do would have been to calm her down and let the comment pass.

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

 

Well it's good to see almost everyone that I've managed to offended in the one place.

 

 

You have offended my family, and the Shaolin temple!

 

Edited November 23, 2010 by Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

 

If Mal will say he was in the wrong, I will send him a case of Pu-erh.

 

 

If I say Mal was wrong do I get a case of Pu-erh?

 

I don't know one way or another, but if there's a case of tea in it for me.... well.

 

[Mal]

[Gerard]

I didn't come here to be your FAVOURITE IDOL or your NEXT DOOR GURU. There are different levels in the spiritual path and all DESERVE respect. But turning this place into a hairdressing salon where everyone has something to say just because it's the way it is doesn't really help advancing in that path. And whether we like it or not the spiritual path ain't easy...we all know that otherwise we wouldn't be down here in the "valley of shadows and death."

 

I am not defending the idea of making each thread into a Buddhist Sutra or part of Daoist Canon but personal attacks, social talk and gibberish is something that should be MODERATED. Besides I stilll don't understand why the mods still refuse to adopt this policy.

 

Gee if you think I am being strict and harsh go and visit any Theravada monastery in Asia. One of my friends was ordained a monk last year in one of the vats in northern Thailand and he sent me an e-mail saying that place was like the army: no breaks he had to follow the path of absolute renunciation. He knew what he was going into anyway.

[ralis]

What I see is that the quality of the topics discussed and what is discussed is going downhill because of a bunch of "enlightened" users who get away with their constant trolling, subtle and overt attacks, post-filling technique, and lack of "real" spiritual experience and guidance.

 

 

 

Lack of spiritual experience? Speak for yourself!

[RiverSnake]

I've often thought that it would be interesting to cut the forum into sections based on experience in cultivation (Guest, Student, Adept) so that we could cut down on the repetitive posts and more experienced members wouldn't have to put up with the childish insults and antics that seem to pop up when someone disagrees on a point.

 

-I would be interested to hear the members and moderators thoughts on this?

Edited November 23, 2010 by Tao Apprentice

[Alfred E]

I didn't come here to be your FAVOURITE IDOL or your NEXT DOOR GURU. There are different levels in the spiritual path and all DESERVE respect. But turning this place into a hairdressing salon where everyone has something to say just because it's the way it is doesn't really help advancing in that path. And whether we like it or not the spiritual path ain't easy...we all know that otherwise we wouldn't be down here in the "valley of shadows and death."

 

I am not defending the idea of making each thread into a Buddhist Sutra or part of Daoist Canon but personal attacks, social talk and gibberish is something that should be MODERATED. Besides I stilll don't understand why the mods still refuse to adopt this policy.

 

Gee if you think I am being strict and harsh go and visit any Theravada monastery in Asia. One of my friends was ordained a monk last year in one of the vats in northern Thailand and he sent me an e-mail saying that place was like the army: no breaks he had to follow the path of absolute renunciation. He knew what he was going into anyway.

 

I tend to agree - although - like anything from food to water to breathing air etc things can be overdone.

My suggestion is the Iggy (ignore) selection, for who not to listen to, in your profile. It gives every individual the ability to monitor his or her own posts and reading.