Free Speech and Moderator Action

[Alfred E]

[C T]

[C T]

I didn't come here to be your FAVOURITE IDOL or your NEXT DOOR GURU. There are different levels in the spiritual path and all DESERVE respect. But turning this place into a hairdressing salon where everyone has something to say just because it's the way it is doesn't really help advancing in that path. And whether we like it or not the spiritual path ain't easy...we all know that otherwise we wouldn't be down here in the "valley of shadows and death."

 

I am not defending the idea of making each thread into a Buddhist Sutra or part of Daoist Canon but personal attacks, social talk and gibberish is something that should be MODERATED. Besides I stilll don't understand why the mods still refuse to adopt this policy.

 

Gee if you think I am being strict and harsh go and visit any Theravada monastery in Asia. One of my friends was ordained a monk last year in one of the vats in northern Thailand and he sent me an e-mail saying that place was like the army: no breaks he had to follow the path of absolute renunciation. He knew what he was going into anyway.

If you seriously believe that we are 'down in the valley of shadows and death', then i think that if this place is really shaping up to resemble a hair salon, as you say, would that not be a marked improvement in comfort levels? Not sure about you, but years ago, when i still had sufficient hair to warrant the occasional visit to the barbers, it always felt great post-visit, so such places are not as 'unspiritual' as you seem to think, Gerard. The same, i feel, could be said if one suddenly ends up in a Vat. Now, Wat... that's an altogether different kettle of fish...

 

 

Trivia - the Heidelberg Tun/vat: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heidelberg_Tun

Edited November 23, 2010 by CowTao

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

I honestly don't know where anyone can go with this Mal/Cat/Cheerleader thing.

 

I've seen this subject I don't know how many times in recent months. Where can it go?

 

Mal says he feels the decision was justified, Cat obviously does too. Raymond, as can be seen does not...and a lot of people seem to support his view.

 

Mal isn't gonna' say he feels he's wrong and no one else is gonna' say they feel their view isn't justified either.

 

So really and truly, where can it go? Except in circles. I was not involved in that particular thread so it isn't for me to say anyone is right or wrong, or without justification of their grievance.

 

I don't think anyone would say that Cat didn't really feel aggrieved, and Raymond quite obviously is aggrieved. As far as I can see Mal is the poor bastard in the middle. Maybe he could have chosen a different way....but he didn't.

 

What more can he say except he will try to not let it happen that way again? You can put someone in a position where you say you think they are wrong and you want an explanation/apology... but if they really truly say they think they did what they think is right, it doesn't necessarily mean it was, or wasn't right... but it is their view, and to keep hammering on about it is to try to force someone into saying something which is actually against their principles or their truth is not so great. Personally I view that as a tad cruel..... although I won't say that peoples' grievances are not necessarily justified... but still... I always believe a person should be given an exit point... I don't wanna see a person on the floor getting the boot stuck in repeatedly....

 

I dunno. Everyone aggrieved seems to have a point which is justified. Although I have no right to say 'let it go', I do really wanna' say that. Be like the flowing stream and all that.

[RyanO]

So this is one of those threads that makes TTB my version of a soap opera. I read this whole thread instead of watching TV and it was awesome. I mostly enjoy the communication of spiritual knowledge and other edifying aspects of this forum, but I don't know if it would be the same without all the drama. Like a soap opera, but real life!

[rex]

... constant trolling, subtle and overt attacks, post-filling technique ...

Absolutely! Also quippy facile one liners that ruin the original spirit of a post. This is a hazard of public forums that TBs is not immune from. Not easy to moderate for sure. Quippy one liners may be the appropriate response to particularly insidious posts though patterns of constant quips can, and in my opinion, do reveal disruptive intent. On balance TB's has probably got the best option between e-sangha over-moderation and total descent into chaotic acrimony. It is clear that people can make honest mistakes that can be perceived as a select coterie closing ranks. The fact that this thread exists and that individual moderators are being called to account speaks volumes for the moderating team, the individuals concerned and the oft abused spirit that underlies the TBs.

[devoid]

I am pretty sure that there can never be a full conclusion and closing to this discussion.

 

However, in trying to count the dead I have seen a good handful of members who are against moderation and who also seem to hold personal grudge against some of the moderators, for whatever the reasons. At the same time we have also seen about two handfuls of members who do support moderation. Additionally, you have all the other members who didn't bother getting involved, presumably because they're happy with the current state of affairs.

 

IMHO this discussion has ended.

[Marblehead]

Well it's good to see almost everyone that I've managed to offended in the one place.

 

 

Well, you haven't offended me yet. You need to get serious about your job!

 

BTW I offended Apech the other day but we managed to work out an understanding via PM.

 

People are going to be offended now and then on a forum. We members mostly don't know the many things that effect others in a negative way. What's wrong with the offender and offended PMing so that an understanding can be had without involving the moderators?

Edited November 23, 2010 by Marblehead

[Marblehead]

What I see is that the quality of the topics discussed and what is discussed is going downhill because of a bunch of "enlightened" users who get away with their constant trolling, subtle and overt attacks, post-filling technique, and lack of "real" spiritual experience and guidance.

 

Ramon25, orb, goldisheavy, sloppy zhang, ralis, marblehead, thesongsofdistantearth are just some names that spring to my mind.

 

If Tao Bums wants quality instead of quantity correct moderation should be applied asap.

 

I am still staying but will be careful with some of the information I can provide because most of the users here are not ready for it, and honestly I am tired of personal attacks that only leave me with the feeling that maybe I am wasting my time by giving quality information to people who would really appreciate it.

 

Is this perhaps the reason why some spiritual practitioners leave the world behind or teach secretly because humans are not ready for these teachings? Only time will tell.

 

 

Edited: typing errors

 

 

Hi Gerard,

 

I have no idea what your intentions here are but I will say this: If you can't be here and speak your mind and not have to be careful about what you are saying perhaps you should consider why you are here.

 

You say others are lacking but you suggest that you are not presenting yourself honestly.

 

The mods are here to enforce the rules of the board, not to judge the quality of the words offered by the members.

 

For you to state that others are lacking of "real" spiritual experience and guidance. suggests that you understand the deepest essence of these individuals. You, sir, have no idea.

[Marblehead]

Just because a member took offense at an innocuous remark is no reason to ban someone, Mal. It means there are no objective standards by which you are moderating. And how ironic that the "Cat is a cheerleader" meme has been repeated over and over in discussion, when the thing to do would have been to calm her down and let the comment pass.

 

 

Sorry Vaj, I can't help saying this: You are a cheerleader for Buddhism.

 

Now, understand, I don't intend this to be taken negatively. In fact, it is a positive statement. You are cheering for what you believe in. I admire that. But you are still a cheerleader.

 

Some words have negative connotations to some people whereas they don't have those negative connotations with others.

 

Words are so insufficient sometimes.

[Vajrahridaya]

Vaj....a cheerleader for Buddhism.

 

 

:D

[Marblehead]

I am not defending the idea of making each thread into a Buddhist Sutra or part of Daoist Canon but personal attacks, social talk and gibberish is something that should be MODERATED. Besides I stilll don't understand why the mods still refuse to adopt this policy.

 

So what do you want? Total censorship? You want everyone who does not say what you want to hear to shut up?

 

You can start your own board and set those rules. You might actually get one or two members that stay for more than one day.

 

If people cannot speak freely and honorably within the threads that they follow then there is something seriously wrong.

 

Tao is the Way of "natural" reaction. Being 'unnatural' is phoney, plastic.

Edited November 23, 2010 by Marblehead

[Apech]

Sorry Vaj, I can't help saying this: You are a cheerleader for Buddhism.

 

 

 

Hey! Don't encourage him. This is the one thread where dependent origination hasn't been mentioned.

[Marblehead]

So this is one of those threads that makes TTB my version of a soap opera. I read this whole thread instead of watching TV and it was awesome. I mostly enjoy the communication of spiritual knowledge and other edifying aspects of this forum, but I don't know if it would be the same without all the drama. Like a soap opera, but real life!

 

Thanks for that. Yes, this is so much better than TV soap operas.

[Marblehead]

Hey! Don't encourage him. This is the one thread where dependent origination hasn't been mentioned.

 

Hehehe. Belly laughs!

[Vajrahridaya]

Hey! Don't encourage him. This is the one thread where dependent origination hasn't been mentioned.

:lol: :lol:

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

Hey! Don't encourage him. This is the one thread where dependent origination hasn't been mentioned.

 

 

Hey! You heard rex! No more "quippy one-liners"! Cut it out and get serious here! This is a serious place, dammit!

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

So this is one of those threads that makes TTB my version of a soap opera. I read this whole thread instead of watching TV and it was awesome. I mostly enjoy the communication of spiritual knowledge and other edifying aspects of this forum, but I don't know if it would be the same without all the drama. Like a soap opera, but real life!

 

Obviously, as a community, we have a need to hash things out like this. We seem to have a need for drama here from time to time. It's healthy.

 

As the saying goes, "It is what it is".

Edited November 23, 2010 by TheSongsofDistantEarth

[rookie]

Well, you haven't offended me yet. You need to get serious about your job!

 

BTW I offended Apech the other day but we managed to work out an understanding via PM.

 

People are going to be offended now and then on a forum. We members mostly don't know the many things that effect others in a negative way. What's wrong with the offender and offended PMing so that an understanding can be had without involving the moderators?

 

agreed, this would be the best.

Somehow the moderation has become very overactive, almost instantly reactive when just allowing a little time to pass may be all that is necessary for something to resolve or die down.

 

In my opinion this over-moderation has changed the dynamic in a way that has hurt this board. And since it has become a serious topic of discussion this in itself shows that it is out of bounds.

[VCraigP]

Errrr marblehead ???? respected by everyone as far as I can see.

 

every one has different opinions. Careful of showing any bias "newbie" mod. :-)

 

Craig

[Apech]

every one has different opinions. Careful of showing any bias "newbie" mod. :-)

 

Craig

 

Ouch!

[VCraigP]

What I see is that the quality of the topics discussed and what is discussed is going downhill because of a bunch of "enlightened" users who get away with their constant trolling, subtle and overt attacks, post-filling technique, and lack of "real" spiritual experience and guidance.

 

 

If Tao Bums wants quality instead of quantity correct moderation should be applied asap.

 

I am still staying but will be careful with some of the information I can provide because most of the users here are not ready for it, and honestly I am tired of personal attacks that only leave me with the feeling that maybe I am wasting my time by giving quality information to people who would really appreciate it.

 

Is this perhaps the reason why some spiritual practitioners leave the world behind or teach secretly because humans are not ready for these teachings? Only time will tell.

 

 

Edited: typing errors

 

Your call for "correct moderation" is not correct. Read the very limited moderation guidlines. This is the moderator "constitution" showing the scope of powers and the limitations.

 

It is not a matter of quality or quantity. It is a matter of civil discourse.

 

Next I urge you to share whatever you feel you have to share for the sake of the many, many who sit on the sidelines and read TTB hoping to glean some kernels of knowledge, wisdom and inspiration.

 

As long as you haven't yet left the world you might as well share your thoughts. If some pedantic boor tries to shout you down then it is a test of your mettle and an oppurtunity to show your merit in the face of ignorance.

 

PS - I will not agree or disagree with you about the list of posters you mentioned which is why I erased that part of your quote

 

Craig

[VCraigP]

 

but personal attacks, social talk and gibberish is something that should be MODERATED. Besides I stilll don't understand why the mods still refuse to adopt this policy.

 

TTB is not the place for this type of moderation. I doubt one member in 100 would agree to moderating quality of material posted. No one has that kind of discernment, nor should they attempt to exercise it.

 

On the other hand there has been discussion in the past about people hijacking threads. I think that issue deserves looking at. Actually I thought the post rating system would be an excellent way to indicate when you thought thread hijacking was taking place, but too much whining and this tool was taken away before its uses could be properly considered (IMO of course).

[VCraigP]

I've often thought that it would be interesting to cut the forum into sections based on experience in cultivation (Guest, Student, Adept) so that we could cut down on the repetitive posts and more experienced members wouldn't have to put up with the childish insults and antics that seem to pop up when someone disagrees on a point.

 

-I would be interested to hear the members and moderators thoughts on this?

 

In a word - ridiculous.

 

Who would decide the qualifiScations? Inappropriate for TTB. Also, anyone can get their own personal forum here and moderate it to the extent they like. You can be your own personal dictator.

 

I think actual teachers would be much better served to have forums of their own on their own website to discuss their own practices. I say this even though I participate in the Flying Phoenix Qigong thread. Sifu Dunn may be better served starting his own personal forum section, but I get the sense he doesn't have nearly the amount of spare time to do it.

 

Craig

[rookie]

 

Actually resigning would be the easy option to take wouldn't it? I also think it would be the truly selfish option as well because I would be doing it either to prove that I am not attached to the role or because I didn't want the "burden" of the responsibility nor the scrutiny and criticism that comes with it.

 

And if I did resign would that improve anything for the community? Would that actually solve the issues being presented in this thread?

 

Nope, the issue would still be there. That would mean that whoever picked up the ball next would be loaded with the same "burden" without the experience behind them.

 

I would also be abdicating responsibility for the situation. The mere fact that I am part of the moderation team means that I am part of the "problem" that certain people are taking issue with. As far as I am concerned it would be the cowards way out to not stand up and hold myself accountable; I would be just passing the buck off to someone else.

 

If I thought resigning would benefit the community the most then sure, I'd resign in an instant. Please take my word on that.

 

Moderation isn't about power or privilege to me, but I will admit that I have a selfish motive. You see for me its about the growth and development that its forcing me to undergo. Just as one example, look at the scrutiny I have opened myself up to in this thread -- every barb and every cutting remark is another blow against my self-importance. I am getting like a year's worth of introspection in just one topic. Valuable stuff!

 

But the issue here is not "who" is a moderator, the main issues I see here is both that there is moderation of TaoBums in the first place and also some limited cases of how it has been delivered.

 

To the first issue I think folks just need to get over the fact that TaoBums is now a moderated forum. We have a set of Moderation Guidelines that is open to full scrutiny, criticism, and amendment. And we have a small team of folks who do their best to monitor and uphold those guidelines.

 

That's just the way it is ... deal with it.

 

The issue of how moderation is being delivered is perhaps the only issue that can be discussed.

 

I will admit I have personally made mistakes. There were times when I have lost my objectivity. There were times when I have allowed personal feelings and opinions cloud my judgement. There were times when I took action when I shouldn't have. There were times when I did nothing when I should have taken action.

 

I have made mistakes and I take responsibility, hold myself accountable, and sincerely apologize for each and every one of those mistakes.

 

But let's be honest with each other here, I think another issue that needs to be discussed here is the personal responsibility and accountability of the members who are raising these issues.

 

The onus was placed on me to be truly honest and open with my motives as a moderator, and my entire record is open for inspection and criticism.

 

Are the detractors willing to do the same?

 

How many of the critics are members who have instigated, through their behavior, the need for moderators to take action against them? Are you willing to have your record laid bare for public inspection in the same way that is demanded of us?

 

I think a bit of honesty both ways might help the issue as well.

 

So the question is: "Where to from here?"

 

 

 

Stig,

I have a limited amount of energy to apply to this so I am not going to respond to all of your reasons, at least not right now. As a moderator you should be much more accountable than the regular members because you are using your personal judgement to issue punitive measures. This brings everything behind those judgements into the discussion. This is especially true if a moderator wishes to remain mostly a member and not a tyrant in their interactions on the board.

 

But you have clearly missed the main point I was making.

In your case especially there is no question that you really wanted to be a moderator, to have the position and the power. This in itself should be a red-flag warning to look into a persons motives.

 

Now you clearly have resisted my suggestion that you step down with lots of reasons.

The biggest reason to step down would be for your own benefit. You are clearly attached to the role. You did not seem to get that there would be a benefit for you to voluntarily give up a position of power, and some might say prestige, for your own personal growth. You are showing avoidance, and possibly blindness to this level of desire and attachment you have for the power and prestige. This in itself is a reason to investigate what is going on in your own psyche.

 

You clearly think that you are good for the board and that anyone else would have the same problems and mistakes that you have made. This again is self-centered and myopic. Someone else would have their own point of view and make their own mistakes, and quite possibly be much better for the board than you are.

 

Where do we go from here?

 

One path of growth is open to you right now.

I hope you do not underestimate the power of looking into your blind spots.

You will probaly never know how blind you are to this and how much your makeup is centered on control until you no longer have this particular outlet to express through. But then you would probaly just pick up another one, most likely unconcious of the ongoing need for power and control.

 

One of the best things about on open forum is the many different points of view and the unique way that people have of expressing themselves.

In my opinion this forum has been becoming more and more vanilla, almost neutered.

It would be good for the moderators to learn to "hold their water" a bit.

The situation reminds me of the US politics, from Bush to Obama, one extreme to the other.

Wouldn't a better approach to an open and loosely daoist based board be to let things flow on their own a bit more?

Let the boys play.

Call a meeting with the parties invloved if necessary.

See if they can work things out on their own.

Eliminate all one sided action except in extreme cases, like the kunlun wars

This is always best.

 

I know the kunlun wars probably required some real intervention, but a lot of the things I am hearing about seem to be way over doing the role.

 

I hope you will give this some serious consideration Stig, and not take a defensive position. There is no value in that. Sometimes one needs a different set of eyes to help them see an aspect of themselves that they can overlook or justify to themselves quite easily.

 

I want to make the point, but I also want this to be peacefull and preserve the ability to have open conversations in the future. I hope you can take it this way.