Free Speech and Moderator Action

[ralis]

Mal,

 

In regards to your previous comment that you have some need to shape discussions for value, no explanation has been forthcoming. What are your criteria and why do you feel a need to manipulate ongoing discussions?

[rookie]

Mal,

 

In regards to your previous comment that you have some need to shape discussions for value, no explanation has been forthcoming. What are your criteria and why do you feel a need to manipulate ongoing discussions?

 

Since when should a moderators action be to substitute their judgement of value for another members?

This is rediculous if it is happening.

 

No wonder there is revolution stirring among the masses

 

no, seriously, what kind of tyranical, self-centered action is this?

[rookie]

I hope that all moderators, and anyone who would want to be a moderator, would take my challenge to examine their need and desire for control and power seriously.

 

And I hoep the scrutiny of those who would be in this role ever intensifies for everyones benefit.

[Pietro]

Ralis is our local curmudgeon and speaks what needs to be said many times. To have a heavy handed moderated happy little group here is akin to the Sunday Afternoon Ladies Taoist Garden Club, which is what some of the Love and Light crowd would like to have. The shadow, as exemplified by the fights we have here and sometimes by comments made by ralis and various members is our shadow being voiced. Communities that deny the shadow always fall prey to it later, as shown by numerous spiritual communities that never allow open and free speech, including criticism of the guru.

 

Raymond Wolter was banned after he said Cat was "a cheerleader for KAP", causing Cat to yowl and spit and complain to the mods like someone had stepped on her tail, so Raymond got banned. If Cat hadn't made such a fuss to the moderators, he wouldn't have been banned, simple as that. And that comment would have been long forgotten instead of us still talking about Cat the Cheerleader months later. (When I brought it up recently, Mal told me I was living in the past). I see it as discussing inconsistent and unresolved moderation issues.

 

Meanwhile, one member called another "a piece of work" and that wasn't deemed insulting. I imagine if Vajra complained to the mods instead of swatting back at everyone, others would get banned.

(underlines are mine)

 

 

It is important that the moderators do not act out of the subjective feelings of the person being insulted, but out of the objectivity of what has happened.

 

If we decide that name calling is an offense and someone should get banished for name-calling another person this should happen regardless of how does the person called feel.

 

If I call someone an asshole I should be banned, even if the person does not feel offended by my action. On the other hand if I say something that is generally accepted and a person feel so offended... well, that is their problem. Applying the law in any other way opens up the door to subjectivity in judgment and people playing the victim cards. Two things that you do not want. So, if the fact that someone complained caused a person to be banned that would be wrong.

 

Of course the moderators cannot be everywhere so the person can bring their attention to a post that would otherwise be missed. But complaining or cheerleading for someone to be banned should have no weight over their decision.

 

Late Edit: someone->something

Edited November 23, 2010 by Pietro

[Marblehead]

every one has different opinions. Careful of showing any bias "newbie" mod. :-)

 

Craig

 

Don't worry. His remark did not go to my head. I understand that there are those who think very little of me. That's their right. But you know what? That doesn't bother me in the least. Everyone has the right to ignore me.

[Marblehead]

 

If I call someone an asshole I should be banned, ...

 

I actually disagree. Hehehe. This is the first time since I have been here that I have been able to do that.

 

If the person you called an asshole actually was being an asshole then you were simply stating a fact. I see no reason why you should be banned because, afterall, you were just stating a fact and I am sure it could be varified by others.

 

But yeah, if it came to that then you waited too long before ignoring that person therefore you would be fully responsible for whatever followed.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Next I urge you to share whatever you feel you have to share for the sake of the many, many who sit on the sidelines and read TTB hoping to glean some kernels of knowledge, wisdom and inspiration.

 

Excellent point! There are lots of lurkers here- people who read but are not members. There are also lots of members who read but don't post. So when you post something, who knows how far it reaches? Maybe someone years from now will do a web search and find the material that you posted here.

 

So to remove it, or just not even post it, because of how you feel about the "quality" of discussion in the present, well, who knows what you have denied to present anonymous readers and future seekers?

 

I actually disagree. Hehehe. This is the first time since I have been here that I have been able to do that.

 

If the person you called an asshole actually was being an asshole then you were simply stating a fact. I see no reason why you should be banned because, afterall, you were just stating a fact and I am sure it could be varified by others.

 

Though I'd contend that it's not a statement of fact, but a statement of opinion, I think the context should be taken into consideration.

 

If it's one thread, been a pretty vicious back and forth, a lot of harsh statements, leading up to a final, "you're an asshole", then I don't think banning should be considered. I'd also suggest against an immediate temporary suspension. If it's a heated discussion, and someone flings something one way, well, sometimes that happens.

 

Tell the people to chill, and encourage them to walk away. If they can't, close the thread for a couple of days (but then re-open it), or send them a warning via PM to chill, or if they won't, temporarily suspend them for a day or two, but then let them come back.

 

However, if two or more people are chasing after one another, and each new thread they both talk in turns into a battle ground for their personal grudges, well more serious action is in order, I think.

[RiverSnake]

delete

Edited November 24, 2010 by Tao Apprentice

[strawdog65]

Perhaps you should look more closely into a comment before just saying, "ah, this is obviously of no usefulness and serves no purpose to learning!" Perhaps examine why you say that? Perhaps examine the motivations for the person saying that? Perhaps learn a little bit about the person? Perhaps examine yourself and what about it you don't like? The reaction and thoughts it provokes in you? Why that's the case?

 

If we just "don't accept" things that we don't like because of a perceived lack of value, well that's not learning, that's just selectively picking things that reinforce whatever your current view is.

 

 

Sloppy Zhang,

 

All you have said is valid.

 

I only meant that being derogatory for the sole purpose

of causing hurt or pain, is of no use from my perspective of

learning, and where I am at , at this point of my own life.

 

Again, what you have said is valid... but, my opinion is, no one

need accept negative energy into their lives...unless they choose

to do so. This negativity, to me, stands in the way of the WAY.

 

Honesty, and insightful conversation do not require name calling

or character dismemberment. We all are able to communicate clearly

and purposefully without resorting to purely visceral and hurtful

language.

 

Since we are all here to learn from each other about this incredible

journey we are on together, I humbly suggest we all take the extra

moments required to be mindful instead of just reacting, and make what

we say here meaningful. All we say matters, but it is also a reflection

of whom we are. I ask you, When saying something, what is wrong with

thinking first and asking yourself..."is this who I am"? Is what you are

saying, true to whom you are? And if it isn't, then why say it at all?

 

Consideration, does not preclude intelligent, insightful, and inspiring

conversation...that is all up to us.

Sloppy Zhang, you are a very inquisitive person and I appreciate the

earnestness of your desire to understand all points of view.

Thank you for being you.

 

Peace, understanding, and Love, to all.

[VCraigP]

Mal,

 

In regards to your previous comment that you have some need to shape discussions for value, no explanation has been forthcoming. What are your criteria and why do you feel a need to manipulate ongoing discussions?

 

I give you a minus for particularly pointless, troll-ish, self-absorbed, hijacking, de-railing comments out of resonance with the spirit of TTB and that add nothing to the discussion or the community

[Marblehead]

Though I'd contend that it's not a statement of fact, but a statement of opinion, I think the context should be taken into consideration.

 

If it's one thread, been a pretty vicious back and forth, a lot of harsh statements, leading up to a final, "you're an asshole", then I don't think banning should be considered. I'd also suggest against an immediate temporary suspension. If it's a heated discussion, and someone flings something one way, well, sometimes that happens.

 

Tell the people to chill, and encourage them to walk away. If they can't, close the thread for a couple of days (but then re-open it), or send them a warning via PM to chill, or if they won't, temporarily suspend them for a day or two, but then let them come back.

 

However, if two or more people are chasing after one another, and each new thread they both talk in turns into a battle ground for their personal grudges, well more serious action is in order, I think.

 

Granted, what I said was from the extreme alternate view. I do agree with your suggestions completely. I think it is so very sad that anyone ever has to be banned.

 

There are many ways to moderate a discussion other than kicking a person or people out.

 

Thanks for the comments and I hope a lot of other members and moderators read it as well.

[Stigweard]

I hope that all moderators, and anyone who would want to be a moderator, would take my challenge to examine their need and desire for control and power seriously.

 

And I hoep the scrutiny of those who would be in this role ever intensifies for everyones benefit.

And I would likewise hope that the members who are attacking the moderators would except my challenge of examining their desire for revenge because they have personal "issues" with said moderators.

 

For example, rookie you are gunning for me. How much of your campaign is powered by the fact that you and I have had very heated and very personal arguments with each other before I became a moderator? Are you truly being honest with everybody here?

 

And I will extend that challenge to certain of the other members on the moderator warpath. Some of you I know have been recipients of our actions. Most of those actions are 100% justified and I am sure if we publicly aired the evidence then all members would agree that our actions were appropriate.

 

Some actions however, as we can see, are questionable and need to be reviewed. If, under that review, an action is deemed incorrect then I know that appropriate actions will be taken to both make reparations and to make sure such an error won't happen again.

 

We all need to be more accountable and responsible -- moderators included.

 

[Taomeow]

I'd like to invite some of you to put some things in perspective.

 

Mal got singled out for one thing he did months ago. We may agree or disagree about the merits of that particular action. How about a bunch of other things Mal did in the interim, between the cheerleader comment and today?

 

1. He kept you all happily spam free. You won't believe what you are being sold on a regular basis by spammers. From "sweaters that grow a face on the buttocks down to the knee" to "glass coffins" -- I'm not kidding. Mal is the one who, being techno savvy, catches and removes most of this flack.

 

2. He kept you all happily free of blood on your hands. There were members who threatened mass murder and suicide and what not. I'm not kidding. (Incidentally, one of the mods, not Mal, but since we're on the subject I'll mention it anyway, had to go to police in his very own spare time to find out how much trouble we're in if someone posting threats of murder actually means it. None of you had to deal with this. Most of you wouldn't know how. I didn't.)

 

3. He kept you all happily free of slurs that would go to the core of your values -- he made it safe for you to be black, Asian, Jewish, female (some porn had to be thrown to the pit to make it safe for women, grossly underrepresented on this forum as it is, for us to keep finding it acceptable), gay, anything at all other than insulting to other members. I've seen many forums where this is not the case. I've seen many forums where you are left unprotected if a bigot, a hatemonger, a psychotic stalker decides to pick on YOU PERSONALLY. Here it was made amply clear that it won't be allowed. Did you notice?..

 

4. He created personal forums for anyone and everyone who has ever asked for one. That's techno expertise, personal time, attention to people, meeting their needs in a timely and friendly and efficient fashion. Did you notice how personal forums appear out of nowhere? It's not out of nowhere. Mal did it for you.

 

5. He helps other mods with any technical issues. Sometimes people have trouble subscribing to the forum. I usually don't know how to help them. Mal usually does, and in some cases it proves longer and more difficult than normal, and he never quits till it's done. Did you know?..

 

There's more, way way more, but I gotta go for now, and while I'm gone, I hope the silly animosity over the silly cheerleader "issue" might, just might, fall into a proper perspective for at least some of you. As for others, noticing this and not noticing the rest is the kind of tunnel vision usually encountered in three-year-olds who want candy and can see nothing but what they want -- not the health benefits of a piece of fruit instead, not the fact that they're growing overweight, not the harmful additives in the candy... give me my candy now, mom Mal! or else you're a bad mom and I don't love you! So... I do hope by the time I come back in a few hours, at least some of the three-year-olds will have grown up a couple decades to catch up with their biological age. I have faith in you.

[strawdog65]

I'd like to invite some of you to put some things in perspective.

 

Mal got singled out for one thing he did months ago. We may agree or disagree about the merits of that particular action. How about a bunch of other things Mal did in the interim, between the cheerleader comment and today?

 

1. He kept you all happily spam free. You won't believe what you are being sold on a regular basis by spammers. From "sweaters that grow a face on the buttocks down to the knee" to "glass coffins" -- I'm not kidding. Mal is the one who, being techno savvy, catches and removes most of this flack.

 

2. He kept you all happily free of blood on your hands. There were members who threatened mass murder and suicide and what not. I'm not kidding. (Incidentally, one of the mods, not Mal, but since we're on the subject I'll mention it anyway, had to go to police in his very own spare time to find out how much trouble we're in if someone posting threats of murder actually means it. None of you had to deal with this. Most of you wouldn't know how. I didn't.)

 

3. He kept you all happily free of slurs that would go to the core of your values -- he made it safe for you to be black, Asian, Jewish, female (some porn had to be thrown to the pit to make it safe for women, grossly underrepresented on this forum as it is, for us to keep finding it acceptable), gay, anything at all other than insulting to other members. I've seen many forums where this is not the case. I've seen many forums where you are left unprotected if a bigot, a hatemonger, a psychotic stalker decides to pick on YOU PERSONALLY. Here it was made amply clear that it won't be allowed. Did you notice?..

 

4. He created personal forums for anyone and everyone who has ever asked for one. That's techno expertise, personal time, attention to people, meeting their needs in a timely and friendly and efficient fashion. Did you notice how personal forums appear out of nowhere? It's not out of nowhere. Mal did it for you.

 

5. He helps other mods with any technical issues. Sometimes people have trouble subscribing to the forum. I usually don't know how to help them. Mal usually does, and in some cases it proves longer and more difficult than normal, and he never quits till it's done. Did you know?..

 

There's more, way way more, but I gotta go for now, and while I'm gone, I hope the silly animosity over the silly cheerleader "issue" might, just might, fall into a proper perspective for at least some of you. As for others, noticing this and not noticing the rest is the kind of tunnel vision usually encountered in three-year-olds who want candy and can see nothing but what they want -- not the health benefits of a piece of fruit instead, not the fact that they're growing overweight, not the harmful additives in the candy... give me my candy now, mom Mal! or else you're a bad mom and I don't love you! So... I do hope by the time I come back in a few hours, at least some of the three-year-olds will have grown up a couple decades to catch up with their biological age. I have faith in you.

 

 

 

I would like to say thank you to Mal.

 

Being new here...I am impressed by all the

things that are being done to make this site

so cool, that we know nothing about.

 

Isn't this whole argument kind of like,

doing so many things right...but it's

only what they tell you you've done wrong,

that matters?

 

Since the world is no where near as black/white

as we sometimes believe, how about looking

at the gray area's and accepting people for

all they are, warts and all.

 

Besides aren't frogs cute? :D

 

I appreciate the uniqueness of TTB,

users and moderators alike,

and I think so should you.

 

Peace to everyone!

[宁]

IMO, most of the persons that question the mods,

are themselves VERY questionable.

 

No judge would make a case from this.

Let alone stand for it to extend to...8 pages???

[TheTaoBum]

IMO, most of the persons that question the mods,

are themselves VERY questionable.

 

No judge would make a case from this.

Let alone stand for it to extend to...8 pages???

 

So your hinting the mods to lock this topic now ? Now that is only adding fuel to the fire

 

Edit: I think its important to get this sorted. Locking the thread might cause more resentment and ill feelings. Perhaps its better to get it all off the chest and deal with now so we can move forward once and for all.

Edited November 23, 2010 by TheTaoBum

[strawdog65]

So your hinting the mods to lock this topic now ? Now that is only adding fuel to the fire

 

Edit: I think its important to get this sorted. Locking the thread might cause more resentment and ill feelings. Perhaps its better to get it all off the chest and deal with now so we can move forward once and for all.

 

 

I agree!

 

If its gotta' roll...than get on with it.

 

I'm amazed that people seem to think their rights

are being impinged somehow because they are being asked to

show consideration and not tear into people at a moments whim.

 

Just because you are able to do something doesn't mean you should.

Clear the air so we can move forward already!

 

 

Peace and understanding is needed.

[Alfred E]

I can't help but wonder how much of this is written by Mal...

 

Taomeow, on 23 November 2010 - 05:13 PM, said:

 

I'd like to invite some of you to put some things in perspective.

 

Mal got singled out for one thing he did months ago. We may agree or disagree about the merits of that particular action. How about a bunch of other things Mal did in the interim, between the cheerleader comment and today?

 

1. He kept you all happily spam free. You won't believe what you are being sold on a regular basis by spammers. From "sweaters that grow a face on the buttocks down to the knee" to "glass coffins" -- I'm not kidding. Mal is the one who, being techno savvy, catches and removes most of this flack.

 

2. He kept you all happily free of blood on your hands. There were members who threatened mass murder and suicide and what not. I'm not kidding. (Incidentally, one of the mods, not Mal, but since we're on the subject I'll mention it anyway, had to go to police in his very own spare time to find out how much trouble we're in if someone posting threats of murder actually means it. None of you had to deal with this. Most of you wouldn't know how. I didn't.)

 

3. He kept you all happily free of slurs that would go to the core of your values -- he made it safe for you to be black, Asian, Jewish, female (some porn had to be thrown to the pit to make it safe for women, grossly underrepresented on this forum as it is, for us to keep finding it acceptable), gay, anything at all other than insulting to other members. I've seen many forums where this is not the case. I've seen many forums where you are left unprotected if a bigot, a hatemonger, a psychotic stalker decides to pick on YOU PERSONALLY. Here it was made amply clear that it won't be allowed. Did you notice?..

 

4. He created personal forums for anyone and everyone who has ever asked for one. That's techno expertise, personal time, attention to people, meeting their needs in a timely and friendly and efficient fashion. Did you notice how personal forums appear out of nowhere? It's not out of nowhere. Mal did it for you.

 

5. He helps other mods with any technical issues. Sometimes people have trouble subscribing to the forum. I usually don't know how to help them. Mal usually does, and in some cases it proves longer and more difficult than normal, and he never quits till it's done. Did you know?..

 

There's more, way way more, but I gotta go for now, and while I'm gone, I hope the silly animosity over the silly cheerleader "issue" might, just might, fall into a proper perspective for at least some of you. As for others, noticing this and not noticing the rest is the kind of tunnel vision usually encountered in three-year-olds who want candy and can see nothing but what they want -- not the health benefits of a piece of fruit instead, not the fact that they're growing overweight, not the harmful additives in the candy... give me my candy now, mom Mal! or else you're a bad mom and I don't love you! So... I do hope by the time I come back in a few hours, at least some of the three-year-olds will have grown up a couple decades to catch up with their biological age. I have faith in you.

 

 

I would like to say thank you to Mal.

 

Being new here...I am impressed by all the

things that are being done to make this site

so cool, that we know nothing about.

 

Isn't this whole argument kind of like,

doing so many things right...but it's

only what they tell you you've done wrong,

that matters?

 

Since the world is no where near as black/white

as we sometimes believe, how about looking

at the gray area's and accepting people for

all they are, warts and all.

 

Besides aren't frogs cute? :D

 

I appreciate the uniqueness of TTB,

users and moderators alike,

and I think so should you.

 

Peace to everyone!

[strawdog65]

I can't help but wonder how much of this is written by Mal...

 

 

I am not Mal.

 

If this is how you really think...you are in need of some

help...and severely paranoid.

 

Please tell me you were joking?

 

Peace to you.

[Aetherous]

I'd like to invite some of you to put some things in perspective.

 

Mal got singled out for one thing he did months ago. We may agree or disagree about the merits of that particular action. How about a bunch of other things Mal did in the interim, between the cheerleader comment and today?

 

1. He kept you all happily spam free. You won't believe what you are being sold on a regular basis by spammers. From "sweaters that grow a face on the buttocks down to the knee" to "glass coffins" -- I'm not kidding. Mal is the one who, being techno savvy, catches and removes most of this flack.

 

2. He kept you all happily free of blood on your hands. There were members who threatened mass murder and suicide and what not. I'm not kidding. (Incidentally, one of the mods, not Mal, but since we're on the subject I'll mention it anyway, had to go to police in his very own spare time to find out how much trouble we're in if someone posting threats of murder actually means it. None of you had to deal with this. Most of you wouldn't know how. I didn't.)

 

3. He kept you all happily free of slurs that would go to the core of your values -- he made it safe for you to be black, Asian, Jewish, female (some porn had to be thrown to the pit to make it safe for women, grossly underrepresented on this forum as it is, for us to keep finding it acceptable), gay, anything at all other than insulting to other members. I've seen many forums where this is not the case. I've seen many forums where you are left unprotected if a bigot, a hatemonger, a psychotic stalker decides to pick on YOU PERSONALLY. Here it was made amply clear that it won't be allowed. Did you notice?..

 

4. He created personal forums for anyone and everyone who has ever asked for one. That's techno expertise, personal time, attention to people, meeting their needs in a timely and friendly and efficient fashion. Did you notice how personal forums appear out of nowhere? It's not out of nowhere. Mal did it for you.

 

5. He helps other mods with any technical issues. Sometimes people have trouble subscribing to the forum. I usually don't know how to help them. Mal usually does, and in some cases it proves longer and more difficult than normal, and he never quits till it's done. Did you know?..

 

There's more, way way more, but I gotta go for now, and while I'm gone, I hope the silly animosity over the silly cheerleader "issue" might, just might, fall into a proper perspective for at least some of you. As for others, noticing this and not noticing the rest is the kind of tunnel vision usually encountered in three-year-olds who want candy and can see nothing but what they want -- not the health benefits of a piece of fruit instead, not the fact that they're growing overweight, not the harmful additives in the candy... give me my candy now, mom Mal! or else you're a bad mom and I don't love you! So... I do hope by the time I come back in a few hours, at least some of the three-year-olds will have grown up a couple decades to catch up with their biological age. I have faith in you.

 

I think this was entirely unnecessary. No one is ganging up on Mal trying to make him feel bad. He doesn't need anyone's support in showing that he's a good guy...that fact is obvious. You might want to go back and read the critical posts of him, and see that positive things were said!

 

We're just discussing an issue which is still very debatable. It doesn't matter if it was months ago...months ahead is the future, and will the same thing occur then (someone getting suspended from the board for a questionable reason)? This is why we discuss it. To improve this place. Period.

 

But maybe we should shut up, because you called us 3 year olds, and called our opinions silly? Maybe we shouldn't share our opinions with the moderating team, so that you guys can shape the board in whatever way you want, and the rest of the community can just put up with it? Because you guys are the valuable members here, and the rest of us are just ants in an ant farm, or people making a mess of Janitor Stig's bathroom.

 

You might want to change your perspective!

[rene]

I can't help but wonder how much of this is written by Mal...

 

I'd like to invite some of you to put some things in perspective.

 

 

 

Heh, Taomeow's energy can be recognized in two of her sentences. Well, it can by those who see anyway - which suggests you really either are the newbie your join date implies or an oldtimer who's kept yer eyes closed. Either way, best of luck. (-:

[Procurator]

 

But maybe we should shut up, because you called us 3 year olds, and called our opinions silly? Maybe we shouldn't share our opinions with the moderating team, so that you guys can shape the board in whatever way you want, and the rest of the community can just put up with it? Because you guys are the valuable members here, and the rest of us are just ants in an ant farm, or people making a mess of Janitor Stig's bathroom.

 

You might want to change your perspective!

i have noticed two things that are funny in her admonitions, funny in a sad way thou: first the pattern...they all start with "lets all just get along", and that out of the way unleash a barrage of arrogant condescension. we want candy, we r 3 yr olds, we r kids who dont know what is good for us.

 

second, she makes weird, unsupported references to mass murders, suicides, and psychotic stalkers. Coming from a person with a creepy mod signature about "sword of dao" it betrayes a projection. and it stinks.

 

much was said about ppl VOLUNTEERING for this job. Heh, by all means lets give power to a person who craves it. What can possibly go wrong?)

[Gerard]

IMO, most of the persons that question the mods,

are themselves VERY questionable.

 

Not everything in life is integers and derivatives, my friend.

 

.....................

 

I have always maintained that moderation in here in terms of QUALITY and INTENT "has been" and "is" very soft.

 

I know Sean is very aware of this but I am hoping he finally decides to take action.

 

Edited: typo

Edited November 24, 2010 by Gerard

[idquest]

No one is ganging up on Mal trying to make him feel bad. He doesn't need anyone's support in showing that he's a good guy...that fact is obvious.

 

Well I 'disagree. What threads like this are doing they create a skewed picture of moderators' work. If we want to evaluate their job that should be done in a fair fashion. This is what Taomeow tried to do, some sort of evaluation.

 

If you are only critical of a person guess what is going to happen? Even the one with the thickest skin will break down. DO you really want that? Could that be a goal of those who keep feeding threads like this?

[Taomeow]

Scotty,

 

I hope I didn't go overboard, I was rushed and in a hurry to put in a good word for Mal, is all. I did't call anyone a 3-year-old though, I am pretty sure I never do, I usually say "behave like" -- which describes a moment in time, a description of a particular act as perceived by me, not of personality. In any event, no disrespect was intended. I'm prone to metaphors, is all. (I'm a slightly published author... that's my excuse for the use of metaphors.)

 

Rene,

 

thank you, your perceptiveness shines.

 

Inquest,

 

thank you, you hit the nail on the head!