Essence and life;

[hagar]

From recent "findings" in my own practice a whole array of concepts in the terminology of Inner alchemy that previously eluded me, suddenly are crystal clear.

 

From what I feel there is no lasting realization without a physical And spiritual interchange of polarities. In short, real liberation is the outcome of the process between the spiritual spark of essence, and the physical condensed Yin point. The collecting of the spiritual spark (yang) into the physical point (yin) is what creates the human being, true health, true nature of physical presence.

 

In contrast, just cultivating the essence without the life will disperse life, as the spiritual energy or spark has no anchoring into the physical, thus deteriorating the physical (yin).

 

This can actually be felt in the body. I think this may also be the reason why many realized buddhist or hindu masters died so young. Pure awareness without a physical condensated point will disperse.

 

Thoughts?

 

h

Edited November 23, 2010 by hagar

[al.]

From recent "findings" in my own practice a whole array of concepts in the terminology of Inner alchemy that previously eluded me, suddenly are crystal clear.

 

From what I feel there is no lasting realization without a physical And spiritual interchange of polarities. In short, real liberation is the outcome of the process between the spiritual spark of essence, and the physical condensed Yin point. The collecting of the spiritual spark (yang) into the physical point (yin) is what creates the human being, true health, true nature of physical presence.

 

In contrast, just cultivating the essence without the life will disperse life, as the spiritual energy or spark has no anchoring into the physical, thus deteriorating the physical (yin).

 

This can actually be felt in the body. I think this may also be the reason why many realized buddhist or hindu masters died so young. Pure awareness without a physical condensated point will disperse.

 

Thoughts?

 

h

 

It sounds like what you're feeling is really good. Maybe what complifies things is the actual terminology- the way I'm seeing what you're saying is- in one's practice one should start from the bottom up, or work with the most base before the most refined, or simply not neglect the physical bodies role in the quality of our awareness. Is this it?

It sounds like there is perhaps more going on, but for me I am slightly confused by your words "spiritual spark of essence"- to clarify- the essence is Yin and it is sparked by the Yang of pure awareness?

A

[RyanO]

From recent "findings" in my own practice a whole array of concepts in the terminology of Inner alchemy that previously eluded me, suddenly are crystal clear.

 

From what I feel there is no lasting realization without a physical And spiritual interchange of polarities. In short, real liberation is the outcome of the process between the spiritual spark of essence, and the physical condensed Yin point. The collecting of the spiritual spark (yang) into the physical point (yin) is what creates the human being, true health, true nature of physical presence.

 

In contrast, just cultivating the essence without the life will disperse life, as the spiritual energy or spark has no anchoring into the physical, thus deteriorating the physical (yin).

 

This can actually be felt in the body. I think this may also be the reason why many realized buddhist or hindu masters died so young. Pure awareness without a physical condensated point will disperse.

 

Thoughts?

 

h

 

I love it.

 

IMHO, experiences like this are what separate Taoism from other more transcendental religions. A great insight into the nature of the manifest realm.

 

Your words have the true oomph that only comes through direct experience. Nice!

[strawdog65]

Hagar,

 

Wow... Awesome insight.

[Vajrahridaya]

I think this may also be the reason why many realized buddhist or hindu masters died so young.

 

Where'd you come up with this? There are so many Tantric Buddhist and Tantric Hindus who live past 100 years and reportedly there are hermits who have to stay away from the regular people of the planet in order to not be infected by their wayward chi who live hundreds of years. I've read Autobiographies of both Tantric Buddhist and Hindu Masters who write of meeting these 100's of years old hermit yogi's to receive special teachings.

 

Of course traditional Tantra in India and Tibet understands the exact same principles you are elucidating through different terminology. I've had the exact same realization that you are talking about many years ago through meditation in the Tantric Hindu tradition.

[Vajrahridaya]

experiences like this are what separate Taoism from other more transcendental religions.

 

What traditions are transcendental? Tantric Buddhism is not about transcending anything. Tantric Shaivites would also argue against this assumption with many yogi's as proof to contradict your statement.

 

p.s. Why do you think there is Buddhist and Hindu yoga? Tantra is specifically developed to create an open conduit through the body for subtler realizations and manifestations of energy and for elongating the physical life in order to maintain a continuity in conscious practice for the sake of deepening insight into the hear and now. There is nothing to transcend according to the Tantric traditions except ignorant awareness. This is all we work on transcending. Through yoga, we realize that liberation is here in the body, while on planet Earth.

Edited November 24, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[idquest]

From recent "findings" in my own practice a whole array of concepts in the terminology of Inner alchemy that previously eluded me, suddenly are crystal clear.

 

From what I feel there is no lasting realization without a physical And spiritual interchange of polarities. In short, real liberation is the outcome of the process between the spiritual spark of essence, and the physical condensed Yin point. The collecting of the spiritual spark (yang) into the physical point (yin) is what creates the human being, true health, true nature of physical presence.

 

In contrast, just cultivating the essence without the life will disperse life, as the spiritual energy or spark has no anchoring into the physical, thus deteriorating the physical (yin).

 

This can actually be felt in the body. I think this may also be the reason why many realized buddhist or hindu masters died so young. Pure awareness without a physical condensated point will disperse.

 

Thoughts?

 

h

Thanks for sharing.

 

SOunds pretty much like Po and Hun concept. Did you look at your experience from this angle?

[Aaron]

I think in order to fully absorb the concepts that have been espoused here, one must keep in mind the words of Billy Joel, "Only the good die young."

 

After you have thought upon this deep saying, I would add that the length of one's life is not determined by his good health alone. Being healthy isn't going to help you if you get hit by a bus. Perhaps, more important than the physical well being is one's awareness of his place in the universe? Understanding the Tao is the key to longevity, after all, we were here before we were born and we'll be here long after we die. The physical body decays, only that part of us that is the Tao will live forever.

 

I'm not a follower of martial arts, so I can't talk to you about yin and yang, or chi, but I can say that if you practice martial arts without cultivating the mind also, you are missing out on much of what the Tao Teh Ching teaches.

 

I think if you really want to work from the ground up, become aware of the principles of Tao and the rest will fall into place.

 

With all that said, Chapter 40 of the TTC comes to mind as a passage that might support my comments.

 

Aaron

Edited November 24, 2010 by Twinner

[forestofclarity]

I didn't realize there were lots of Buddhist/Hindu masters who died young--- other than Adi Shankhara. Most of the Buddhist masters who've I met are old. Most of of the Buddhist masters I've read about lived to be old. Master Xu Yun was severely beaten by communists when he was 112 and still managed to pull out another 7 years.

 

This can actually be felt in the body. I think this may also be the reason why many realized buddhist or hindu masters died so young. Pure awareness without a physical condensated point will disperse.

 

Thoughts?

 

h

[doc benway]

Dear Hagar,

Your posts are such a breath of fresh, cool air.

I'm glad I visited today.

_/\_

[hagar]

Thank you all for great feedback.

 

I'm sneaking in some time on TTB at work, so in-detail replies come later.

 

Just wanted to put it out there, and its not comepletely thought through.

To Vaj's reply; I am not stating what is obviously not true; that Buddhist or Hindu masters die young.

There is even a concept in Buddhism that is analogous to the Yang body; Diamond body, and many Tantric and Hindu masters have realized it.

This is NOT a tribute to any "isms" or a devaluation of any tradition. What is sometimes a fact is that cultivating the essence ONLY, and not life will disperse the vitality, and the chi, to a point where, for many masters, health will deteriorate. In addition, many teachers who are not trained in the art of preserving "life" are not aware of how they are dispersing their vital energy through their teaching, their classes, and their utilization of their own spiritual energy when helping students and others.

 

My key experience is one connected with Nei Dan. The true spiritual point, from where the axis of the light spark and the physical red point originate is somewhere behind, beyond, between, or within the two basic polarities. Only when the polarities interplay can the spiritual essence be anchored in the physiclal (red) point. When this occurs, life energy is maintained through the life-span. If not, eventhough you may be realized spiritually, your life span may be shortened.

 

An interesting example personally was when I sat in class and was given a challigraphy to meditate on, and I started to shake and jump uncontrollably. Only after being told to focus on the lower Dan Tian, and the red spark there, instead of opening only up to the light spark in the upper DT did the movement stop. And then it stopped totally, followed by a deep silence and a sense of radiation and pulse. Before that, it felt like the chi was not contained. Thus, I feel that when cultivating awareness, or spiritual energy, it only becomes "manifest" when anchored in the red matter of the lower DT,or yin.

The human being is in its essence not only spirit, but the polarization of spirit into a point anchored by the yin/physical energy.

 

Just want to share my experience.

 

h

[Vajrahridaya]

Thank you all for great feedback.

 

I'm sneaking in some time on TTB at work, so in-detail replies come later.

 

Just wanted to put it out there, and its not comepletely thought through.

To Vaj's reply; I am not stating what is obviously not true; that Buddhist or Hindu masters die young.

There is even a concept in Buddhism that is analogous to the Yang body; Diamond body, and many Tantric and Hindu masters have realized it.

This is NOT a tribute to any "isms" or a devaluation of any tradition. What is sometimes a fact is that cultivating the essence ONLY, and not life will disperse the vitality, and the chi, to a point where, for many masters, health will deteriorate. In addition, many teachers who are not trained in the art of preserving "life" are not aware of how they are dispersing their vital energy through their teaching, their classes, and their utilization of their own spiritual energy when helping students and others.

 

My key experience is one connected with Nei Dan. The true spiritual point, from where the axis of the light spark and the physical red point originate is somewhere behind, beyond, between, or within the two basic polarities. Only when the polarities interplay can the spiritual essence be anchored in the physiclal (red) point. When this occurs, life energy is maintained through the life-span. If not, eventhough you may be realized spiritually, your life span may be shortened.

 

An interesting example personally was when I sat in class and was given a challigraphy to meditate on, and I started to shake and jump uncontrollably. Only after being told to focus on the lower Dan Tian, and the red spark there, instead of opening only up to the light spark in the upper DT did the movement stop. And then it stopped totally, followed by a deep silence and a sense of radiation and pulse. Before that, it felt like the chi was not contained. Thus, I feel that when cultivating awareness, or spiritual energy, it only becomes "manifest" when anchored in the red matter of the lower DT,or yin.

The human being is in its essence not only spirit, but the polarization of spirit into a point anchored by the yin/physical energy.

 

Just want to share my experience.

 

h

 

Sounds exactly like my experience in Hindu Tantra over a decade ago. We also have the contemplation of the red bindu/sphere/tigle in both Hindu and Buddhist tantra.

 

I've also experienced the exact same, jumping, then calming through focusing on the lower DT, or lower 3 chakras in Buddhist/Hindu tantra. So interesting!

Edited November 24, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[exorcist_1699]

What Hagar expresses here , to me, are some basic , but crucial ideas of Taoism :

 

1) Both spirit and life , not solely the spiritual side of us ,have to be cultivated . Emphasize solely the spirtiual side is the main shortcoming/mistake that most , although not all , Buddhist methods commit.

 

2) In our "post-heavenly" status, life and spirit of we human beings are split into two polars. The aim of our cultivation is to eliminate such polarity, merge them and further upgrade the level of the result to a higher plain. This is what really the so-called Kan and Li trigrams are used to teach us.

 

3) One of the always happened dangers of Buddhist methods is that the pre-mature leave of a spirit , which in fact is still in its ying-mind status , from its physical body is mistakenly recognised as some kind of achievement which , sadly is just a pre-mature death of pitiful, shallow-minded monk.

 

4) Spirit must be nourished by essence and qi in order to get its yang characteristic, its real independence and freedom . As a Taoist saying tells us: Qi without shen as some kind of control inside is just a dull and unintelligent stuff. Shen without qi as its basis is insecure and not lasting.

[Vajrahridaya]

What Hagar expresses here , to me, are some basic , but crucial ideas of Taoism :

 

As well as Tantric Hinduism and Buddhism of genuine lineage.

 

1) Both spirit and life , not solely the spiritual side of us ,have to be cultivated . Emphasize solely the spirtiual side is the main shortcoming/mistake that most , although not all , Buddhist methods commit.

 

You are entirely mistaken. There is not one type of Buddhism that makes this mistake, only individuals. Even in Hinayana, there is the grounding practice of Vipassana. Then of course you have Vajrayana with the yogic practices, and the contemplations of the chakras and bringing the high energy down through mantra and visualizations of various sorts.

 

2) In our "post-heavenly" status, life and spirit of we human beings are split into two polars. The aim of our cultivation is to eliminate such polarity, merge them and further upgrade the level of the result to a higher plain. This is what really the so-called Kan and Li trigrams are used to teach us.

 

Vipassana does this very well for a samatha cultivator. Also in Vajrayana the contemplations associated with the 3 kayas, shashumna, chakras and the use of mantras as well as yogic postures and breathings intermingled with visualizations and contemplations.

 

3) One of the always happened dangers of Buddhist methods is that the pre-mature leave of a spirit , which in fact is still in its ying-mind status , from its physical body is mistakenly recognised as some kind of achievement which , sadly is just a pre-mature death of pitiful, shallow-minded monk.

 

You must be living on another planet. The Buddha doesn't teach this type of cultivation and warns his monks to ground and not get excited about passing "signs" in meditation and to practice vipassana which is integration of awareness and body. Then of course we have the methods of Vajrayana which do just the same in an accelerated rate.

4) Spirit must be nourished by essence and qi in order to get its yang characteristic, its real independence and freedom . As a Taoist saying tells us: Qi without shen as some kind of control inside is just a dull and unintelligent stuff. Shen without qi as its basis is insecure and not lasting.

 

All stuff we talk about in Vajrayana through different terminology without making the Eternalist mistake that there is an inherent essence to cling to as absolute.

[hagar]

Sounds exactly like my experience in Hindu Tantra over a decade ago. We also have the contemplation of the red bindu/sphere/tigle in both Hindu and Buddhist tantra.

 

I've also experienced the exact same, jumping, then calming through focusing on the lower DT, or lower 3 chakras in Buddhist/Hindu tantra. So interesting!

 

Interesting. What location does the red sphere have? What texture and what degree of red?

 

Its funny, but the anchoring into the red or lower DT is also related to chi being abundant or shallow. In most of my spontaneous qigong previously I have experienced strong reactions. Only recently I realized that this was a sign of discrepancy, of not being able to contain the chi, not fusing it into the physical nature.

 

PS: I hope this thread does not disintegrate into a Buddhist-bashing thread. It was not my intention. I only used it as an example.Not as proof.

 

h

[Vajrahridaya]

Interesting. What location does the red sphere have? What texture and what degree of red?

 

We use different colored spheres, or dots in different locations according to which element needs to be utilized, the red is generally associated with fire. Depending on the practice and associated intention, we'll put it in the belly, throat, wherever, and have a mantra associated with it, or a specific contemplation. It's also used in sexual tantra. It's used in Tummo alot, where one raises the body heat to purify the channels and we'll put it in the center of the body. This is what is used by those monks that dry ice cold towels on their body as a test of their heating capacity.

 

In Hindu Tantra, we contemplated the red as the entire body and I'd sometimes spontaneously see this in meditation, and it was a sign that the body and channels were being purified in order to integrate "spirit" with it.

 

Sometimes in Buddhist Tantra it's associated only with the lower 3 chakras. There are so many different practices for different intended outcomes that are guided by a master in Buddhist Tantra, and I'm not so qualified to go into these details here.

 

Its funny, but the anchoring into the red or lower DT is also related to chi being abundant or shallow. In most of my spontaneous qigong previously I have experienced strong reactions. Only recently I realized that this was a sign of discrepancy, of not being able to contain the chi, not fusing it into the physical nature.

 

In Buddhist tantra, these are called kriyas and we consider them a sign that the prana or energy of the body is running through the nadis, or channels in a kind of haywire manor. Pranayama (breathing practices), yogic postures, specific visualizations and contemplations and also certain types of foods are then administered to alleviate the problem.

 

Hindu Tantra generally considers these experiences as signs of Gods entry into the body or a sign of kundalini awakening (same thing). One of the reasons why I left Hindu Tantra for a more practical approach in Buddhist Tantra.

 

p.s. on the type of red? In Tummo, definitely bright red, radiating through the entire body from the center. I guess it depends upon the practice and the mind of the individual cultivator. I don't practice Tummo myself, though I've experienced it. I do other practices that utilize the red sphere.

Edited November 24, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[hagar]

It sounds like what you're feeling is really good. Maybe what complifies things is the actual terminology- the way I'm seeing what you're saying is- in one's practice one should start from the bottom up, or work with the most base before the most refined, or simply not neglect the physical bodies role in the quality of our awareness. Is this it?

It sounds like there is perhaps more going on, but for me I am slightly confused by your words "spiritual spark of essence"- to clarify- the essence is Yin and it is sparked by the Yang of pure awareness?

A

I concur. Firs of all, it looks as if I'm really getting this. Im just blundering around testing hypotheses to my ambigous experiences. So don't take everything I say as fact. Not even pseudo-facts. With relation to bottom-up approach, what I describe is based on the experience that there really is no "higher" or "lower" in relation to significance or "higher" level (i.e that the lower is discarded for the higher) They mutually constitute eachother as two sides of the body light, or essential manifest nature.

Spiritual spark in this context is just a concept to hint to the light of awareness that is also the pure Shen manifested as the white spark in the higher center of the polarity. Its what is being achored into the lower DT. Important to note that in NeiDan terminology, "essence" is analogous to awareness or spirit, and "Life" as the red orb in the lower center. Essence in this context is not the sexual essence. Confusing, I know....

 

I love it.

 

IMHO, experiences like this are what separate Taoism from other more transcendental religions. A great insight into the nature of the manifest realm.

 

Your words have the true oomph that only comes through direct experience. Nice!

Actually, what is most interesting is that if we look for the term "enlightenment" in NeiDan, its not really a term, but after taking some retreats with my teacher, what he defines as "realization" is not transcendental. Its the actual True physical nature manifest here now. This feels like spirit being fully "fused" to the physical. No leaks, no discrepancy. This is the "realization", as awareness, and realizing tha we allready are awareness is only the first step. Thus, "satori" is only the first initial realization. Only when you fully return to form, as light will you be "realized". And its no biggie.

 

We normally say what is Yang and Yin but it is not the right concept understanding Yang, Yin.

talking "Yin" Yang", both have "alterability" and "relativity"

It just indicates the dominant Qi in the object and at a certain moment.

There is Yin with Yang and Yang with Yin, existing not in separate or pure 100% like the concept of the polarties or conflict.

 

agreed.

 

Thanks for sharing.

 

SOunds pretty much like Po and Hun concept. Did you look at your experience from this angle?

 

I'm not very well versed in this. It might be. We talke about it, and it has certain aspects of it, especially the red/lower and light-spark/higher. But its not the same.

 

 

I think in order to fully absorb the concepts that have been espoused here, one must keep in mind the words of Billy Joel, "Only the good die young."

 

After you have thought upon this deep saying, I would add that the length of one's life is not determined by his good health alone. Being healthy isn't going to help you if you get hit by a bus. Perhaps, more important than the physical well being is one's awareness of his place in the universe? Understanding the Tao is the key to longevity, after all, we were here before we were born and we'll be here long after we die. The physical body decays, only that part of us that is the Tao will live forever.

 

I'm not a follower of martial arts, so I can't talk to you about yin and yang, or chi, but I can say that if you practice martial arts without cultivating the mind also, you are missing out on much of what the Tao Teh Ching teaches.

 

I think if you really want to work from the ground up, become aware of the principles of Tao and the rest will fall into place.

 

With all that said, Chapter 40 of the TTC comes to mind as a passage that might support my comments.

 

Aaron

I agree that the length of your life is more dependent on transcendental aspects than pure physical health. But I'll try to talk only from experience. From what I have percieved, our primary source of energy loss is our spirit, or emotional disconnecting or separation from our physical bodies/nature. This is an energy-leak much like a waning comet. As babies we are full, complete, with no leak, and thus our spirit or shen is full and our bodies are supple, full of life and healthy. As our awareness is drawn out and "disembodied" we loose energy and thus shorten our life span. The same goes for emotional trauma, as this also disembodies our awarness to defend against the traumatic pain or as a mechanism to supress. In any case, what is most detrimental to our life-span our spirit not being fully fused with our bodies or the physical essential nature, or essential water and fire. If the light is dispersed, it just returns to is original state; non-localized.

 

 

I didn't realize there were lots of Buddhist/Hindu masters who died young--- other than Adi Shankhara. Most of the Buddhist masters who've I met are old. Most of of the Buddhist masters I've read about lived to be old. Master Xu Yun was severely beaten by communists when he was 112 and still managed to pull out another 7 years.

I answered in a previous post. I agree fully.

 

What Hagar expresses here , to me, are some basic , but crucial ideas of Taoism :

 

1) Both spirit and life , not solely the spiritual side of us ,have to be cultivated . Emphasize solely the spirtiual side is the main shortcoming/mistake that most , although not all , Buddhist methods commit.

 

2) In our "post-heavenly" status, life and spirit of we human beings are split into two polars. The aim of our cultivation is to eliminate such polarity, merge them and further upgrade the level of the result to a higher plain. This is what really the so-called Kan and Li trigrams are used to teach us.

 

3) One of the always happened dangers of Buddhist methods is that the pre-mature leave of a spirit , which in fact is still in its ying-mind status , from its physical body is mistakenly recognised as some kind of achievement which , sadly is just a pre-mature death of pitiful, shallow-minded monk.

 

4) Spirit must be nourished by essence and qi in order to get its yang characteristic, its real independence and freedom . As a Taoist saying tells us: Qi without shen as some kind of control inside is just a dull and unintelligent stuff. Shen without qi as its basis is insecure and not lasting.

 

I am not completely sure what you mean here. My understanding of the Nei Dan process is not to suspend the polarities of the upper and lower centres. Instead, you let them become apparent, and nourish us. It is actually a mutually nourishing process, almost like feeling the radiation of a heat source. What is interesting is what is beyond these polar energies or natures. There seem to be an origin, or source that is also a gateway, or opening. Completely detached, yet constituting everyting. Its like an eye or a void. Difficult or impossible to talk about.

In terms of terminology: Essence and spirit is the same in this context.

 

Man. I just wrote a hell of alot of words about something that I probably should have kept silent about. It will probably haunt me. Apologies for lengthy replies.

 

h

[hagar]

We use different colored spheres, or dots in different locations according to which element needs to be utilized, the red is generally associated with fire. Depending on the practice and associated intention, we'll put it in the belly, throat, wherever, and have a mantra associated with it, or a specific contemplation. It's also used in sexual tantra. It's used in Tummo alot, where one raises the body heat to purify the channels and we'll put it in the center of the body. This is what is used by those monks that dry ice cold towels on their body as a test of their heating capacity.

 

In Hindu Tantra, we contemplated the red as the entire body and I'd sometimes spontaneously see this in meditation, and it was a sign that the body and channels were being purified in order to integrate "spirit" with it.

 

Sometimes in Buddhist Tantra it's associated only with the lower 3 chakras. There are so many different practices for different intended outcomes that are guided by a master in Buddhist Tantra, and I'm not so qualified to go into these details here.

 

 

 

In Buddhist tantra, these are called kriyas and we consider them a sign that the prana or energy of the body is running through the nadis, or channels in a kind of haywire manor. Pranayama (breathing practices), yogic postures, specific visualizations and contemplations and also certain types of foods are then administered to alleviate the problem.

 

Hindu Tantra generally considers these experiences as signs of Gods entry into the body or a sign of kundalini awakening (same thing). One of the reasons why I left Hindu Tantra for a more practical approach in Buddhist Tantra.

 

p.s. on the type of red? In Tummo, definitely bright red, radiating through the entire body from the center. I guess it depends upon the practice and the mind of the individual cultivator. I don't practice Tummo myself, though I've experienced it. I do other practices that utilize the red sphere.

 

Fascinating. There are obvious similarities, and it would be interesting to see if these are universal, and experiental(broadly defined =))aspects of the physical nature that are tradition- or practice-independent. If feels to be as something that is not vizualized, but more fundamental as the expression of the essential fire in the water. Speculation aside, the difference from what I understand is that red in my practice is always related to the lower, while white is related to the higher or upper. White has a bright, spark quality, and a more radiation/shining quality. But its a matter what is most essential. In this regard,what is most essential in our body is the spark quality. We are like stars, like when you see a sun from a vast distance, you see its essence, like a spark/star. This is from my teacher, not me.

 

As for the reactions, or Kriyas, as you call them, what I have felt is that the more dispersed the Shen or light is, the stronger the reactions when it returns. If I've experienced energy-loss, and then start practicing this form, its almost painful to let the light return. It feels like hard work, like running a marathon. The body also feels "sore". When energy is abundant, there is more of a restful, nourishing quality with no strong heat or movement reactions. So the more contained the body light is, instead of being outside, the softer and quiter the practice is.

 

Relating to the color of red, I was told the color is dark/blood-red. I don't know if this is only one aspect.

It sounds like the Tibetan tantra is on to something similar. The red absorbs all light, or draws the light in.

 

I probably said too much here, and sound like I know what I talk about. I don't.

 

h

[Vajrahridaya]

Fascinating. There are obvious similarities, and it would be interesting to see if these are universal, and experiental(broadly defined =))aspects of the physical nature that are tradition- or practice-independent. If feels to be as something that is not vizualized, but more fundamental as the expression of the essential fire in the water. Speculation aside, the difference from what I understand is that red in my practice is always related to the lower, while white is related to the higher or upper. White has a bright, spark quality, and a more radiation/shining quality. But its a matter what is most essential. In this regard,what is most essential in our body is the spark quality. We are like stars, like when you see a sun from a vast distance, you see its essence, like a spark/star. This is from my teacher, not me.

 

Everything is variable in Buddhist Tantra, all arising dependent upon the intention. What's most important is awareness, as this is the luminosity of a being.

 

I do wonder how much cross pollination there has been between Buddhist Tantra and what seems to me to be Taoist Tantra.

 

As for the reactions, or Kriyas, as you call them, what I have felt is that the more dispersed the Shen or light is, the stronger the reactions when it returns. If I've experienced energy-loss, and then start practicing this form, its almost painful to let the light return. It feels like hard work, like running a marathon. The body also feels "sore". When energy is abundant, there is more of a restful, nourishing quality with no strong heat or movement reactions. So the more contained the body light is, instead of being outside, the softer and quiter the practice is.

 

I agree, I have the same experience.

Relating to the color of red, I was told the color is dark/blood-red. I don't know if this is only one aspect.

 

Yes, I think in Highest Yoga Tantra we think of the womens energy like this as a red sphere, merging with the white sphere in us and we put it in various places, like the tip of the penis, and other places depending upon where one is at in the practice of karmamudra or sexual tantra.

 

It sounds like the Tibetan tantra is on to something similar. The red absorbs all light, or draws the light in.

 

I probably said too much here, and sound like I know what I talk about. I don't.

 

h

 

Yes, my practice is Dzogchen and we don't do any of this really, we use the Ah sphere of different colors and the white, red and blue spheres putting them in entirely different places and we think of white as associated with water, red with fire and blue with space or ether. We do put the white in the third eye though for the particular practice that I do.

 

It's really nice to share with you Hagar!

Edited November 25, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[三江源]

 

 

From what I feel there is no lasting realization without a physical And spiritual interchange of polarities. In short, real liberation is the outcome of the process between the spiritual spark of essence, and the physical condensed Yin point. The collecting of the spiritual spark (yang) into the physical point (yin) is what creates the human being, true health, true nature of physical presence.

 

In contrast, just cultivating the essence without the life will disperse life, as the spiritual energy or spark has no anchoring into the physical, thus deteriorating the physical (yin).

 

 

h

 

wheeeeeeeeee!!

 

Beauteous, this is, you are.

 

Great figurings out, thanks for articulating it so nicely... what a felt realisation to get to.

 

Santa comes early sometimes.

 

[forestofclarity]

I think this is an interesting thread, and very practically minded, too.

 

My own unproven hypothesis is that life drains are due to blockages and attachments. Mental resistance manifests itself all the way down to the physical body, and would also manifest itself in the chi-body. I find that as I cultivate Buddhist practice, and I let go of my ideas, my fixed positions, and attachments, I become more relaxed and feel "better" inside, even when I'm sick. As I feel better, I try to share or project these feelings with everything around me.

 

Energetically, the idea behind my Buddhist practice, and Buddhist qigong, is to let energy flow freely, rather than try to hold or contain it. Holding and containing it creates blocks. Energy is allowed to flow freely because the source is infinite.

 

From what I am reading here (and please correct me if I'm wrong), but it sound like from a Taoist POV, the point is to plug into this energy and then accumulate it for oneself.

[hagar]

Everything is variable in Buddhist Tantra, all arising dependent upon the intention. What's most important is awareness, as this is the luminosity of a being.

 

I do wonder how much cross pollination there has been between Buddhist Tantra and what seems to me to be Taoist Tantra.

 

 

 

I agree, I have the same experience.

 

 

Yes, I think in Highest Yoga Tantra we think of the womens energy like this as a red sphere, merging with the white sphere in us and we put it in various places, like the tip of the penis, and other places depending upon where one is at in the practice of karmamudra or sexual tantra.

 

 

 

Yes, my practice is Dzogchen and we don't do any of this really, we use the Ah sphere of different colors and the white, red and blue spheres putting them in entirely different places and we think of white as associated with water, red with fire and blue with space or ether. We do put the white in the third eye though for the particular practice that I do.

 

It's really nice to share with you Hagar!

 

What does Dzogchen teach (if any) related to sparks?

Interesting that white is associated with water. As far as I know, the Nei Dan I'm doing don't focus too much on other colors than the red and white. Yet this may change...

 

Great to share with you too!

 

 

 

 

wheeeeeeeeee!!

 

Beauteous, this is, you are.

 

Great figurings out, thanks for articulating it so nicely... what a felt realisation to get to.

 

Santa comes early sometimes.

 

Well, Santa is red isn't he?

 

I think this is an interesting thread, and very practically minded, too.

 

My own unproven hypothesis is that life drains are due to blockages and attachments. Mental resistance manifests itself all the way down to the physical body, and would also manifest itself in the chi-body. I find that as I cultivate Buddhist practice, and I let go of my ideas, my fixed positions, and attachments, I become more relaxed and feel "better" inside, even when I'm sick. As I feel better, I try to share or project these feelings with everything around me.

 

Energetically, the idea behind my Buddhist practice, and Buddhist qigong, is to let energy flow freely, rather than try to hold or contain it. Holding and containing it creates blocks. Energy is allowed to flow freely because the source is infinite.

 

From what I am reading here (and please correct me if I'm wrong), but it sound like from a Taoist POV, the point is to plug into this energy and then accumulate it for oneself.

 

I think my explanation has not been clear here. I see what you mean related to the emphasis on letting go, and not accumulating. This is definately not the objective in my practice either. In the long run this will result in some form of loss or blockage.

 

What we are working on is the body light, which is allready there, and allready full and not diminishing. What does need to occur is to "fuse" the body light with the physical, yet not the physical matter as such, but the esssential water and fire. In this sense, its a form of retrieval, and no form of accumulation is emphasized. The body light is the most essential form of energy and information. Its what we basically are. The light body is allready there allready realized and complete. We just need to "enter" it, to merge with it and re-affirm it in a way. Its like when you put your body in a position, with no other intent than to manifest the body light, and then you walk away. The light body is still there, in a sense. Its like a radiation, or just presence of light.

 

h

[Todd]

Thus, "satori" is only the first initial realization. Only when you fully return to form, as light will you be "realized". And its no biggie.

 

 

Hi Hagar,

 

I'm interested in this. What do you mean when you say its no biggie? As in not a flashy realization?

 

Thanks

 

Todd

[Vajrahridaya]

What does Dzogchen teach (if any) related to sparks?

 

I would recommend anyone and everyone to read this, including the connected, and highlighted links involved. This is very deep, very subtle and only the talk, the practice is much, much deeper and much more involved of course. Including physical postures that are fluid and in motion concerning energy, with mind focusing on various "dots/bindus/spheres/tigles" of different colors associated with different elements, and more contemplations into experiential realizations.

 

Dzogchen (primordial awareness)

 

Interesting that white is associated with water. As far as I know, the Nei Dan I'm doing don't focus too much on other colors than the red and white. Yet this may change...

 

Great to share with you too!

 

Yes, water is considered the most flexible, and as well it's the most dominant element on our Earth outside of space which permeates everything equally of course.

 

 

 

 

Well, Santa is red isn't he?

 

Before I realized that Santa was a myth based upon Saint Nicholas of Europe, I wanted to be Santa.. because I thought it was great to be the person that fulfilled peoples desires once a year. I was really into this idea mind you.

 

 

I think my explanation has not been clear here. I see what you mean related to the emphasis on letting go, and not accumulating. This is definately not the objective in my practice either. In the long run this will result in some form of loss or blockage.

 

What we are working on is the body light, which is allready there, and allready full and not diminishing. What does need to occur is to "fuse" the body light with the physical, yet not the physical matter as such, but the esssential water and fire. In this sense, its a form of retrieval, and no form of accumulation is emphasized. The body light is the most essential form of energy and information. Its what we basically are. The light body is allready there allready realized and complete. We just need to "enter" it, to merge with it and re-affirm it in a way. Its like when you put your body in a position, with no other intent than to manifest the body light, and then you walk away. The light body is still there, in a sense. Its like a radiation, or just presence of light.

 

h

 

I think you will find a lot of similar ideas within the link I presented above on Dzogchen.

Edited November 26, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[hagar]