Were the Sages Martial Artists?

[Aaron]

I must point out that I have never run into this idea prior to coming to the Tao Bums forum, but it seems that there is a debate as to whether the Sages mentioned in the Tao Teh Ching were actual practicioners of martial arts. My own opinion is that they weren't and I believe that chapter 15 is an excellent point of reference for arguing against that idea.

 

With that said, if anyone has a difference of opinion, I would like to hear it, especially if they can provide evidence to support that opinion.

 

On another level, I think this relates to whether or not there is a justification for martial study under the pretext of cultivating Tao. In regards to this, I would say that modern martial arts has less to do with the Tao Teh Ching and Chuang Tzu, than it does the I-ching and other folk traditions practiced in Ancient China.

 

Aaron

Edited November 25, 2010 by Twinner

[Gerard]

...On another level, I think this relates to whether or not there is a justification for martial study under the pretext of cultivating Tao. In regards to this, I would say that modern martial arts has less to do with the Tao Teh Ching and Chuang Tzu, than it does the I-ching and other folk traditions practiced in Ancient China....

 

Let me ask you this question:

 

How were you thinking of clearing all the blockages you have accumulated as a result of being born and living in today's society (karma)

[Warrior Body Buddha Mind]

Yes - Sages where also Martial artist (which includes) qi kung, herbs, folk remedies, weapons, elemental magic etc!

[Sloppy Zhang]

Keeping in mind that I do not research and study every known sage of history or legend...

 

I don't think that all were. Just like I don't think that all of them were physical alchemists, diviners, healers, tradesmen, teachers, etc etc.

 

I think that they all realized the tao through their unique path. So I think some of them could have reached it through martial arts.

 

As a consequence of realizing the tao, they see (saw?) the tao in everything, thus, they could do anything the situation required.

 

Which includes fighting.

 

Were they all martial artists as we might call them today? Probably not.

 

Were some of them? Probably.

 

Did they all realize the tao? Yes.

 

Could they have fought, had the tao flowed in that direction? I believe so, yes.

 

 

But again, as someone had pointed out in the taoist magic thread I started, us observing might see that they are doing various different things- fighting, magic, etc etc, but to a sage, they are just following the energy, changing, and following again. But to us, we wee a mountain moved, or an army of enemies defeated. So in the case of a sage, hard to say.

 

[edit] Just typing into google "tao te ching 15", I came upon a translation from here

 

"The ancient Masters were profound and subtle.

Their wisdom was unfathomable.

There is no way to describe it;

all we can describe is their appearance.

 

They were careful

as someone crossing an iced-over stream.

Alert as a warrior in enemy territory.

Courteous as a guest.

Fluid as melting ice.

Shapable as a block of wood.

Receptive as a valley.

Clear as a glass of water.

 

Do you have the patience to wait

till your mud settles and the water is clear?

Can you remain unmoving

till the right action arises by itself?

 

The Master doesn't seek fulfillment.

Not seeking, not expecting,

she is present, and can welcome all things."

 

Interesting translation given our discussion, and useful. I've added bold to the line in particular. Now maybe that's a good translation, maybe not, but it conveys the point I'm trying to make:

 

"Can you remain unmoving till the right action arises by itself?"

 

In the context of the martial arts, this is not to seek a fight, nor is it to constantly avoid a fight because you think fighting is not the way. It is to not make a judgment, it is to just observe, and act when it is necessary.

 

Now maybe it is to fight. Maybe it is to do something else. Maybe it is to do nothing. All of these things are EQUALLY possible.

 

The whole, "well if you know how to fight then you seek out more fights" or "well you should avoid all fights" is, when talking from this kind of taoist perspective, very much NOT the way of the tao, because you have already made up your mind regardless of the situation! Rather, see what the situation calls for, where the energy is flowing, and act in accordance with that.

 

Maybe fight, maybe not. In seeking tao, I'd say don't get stuck in one or the other.

 

As per our discussion in the other thread, I'm not advocating "going out and fighting" per se, I'm advocating being able to fight competently should you need to, as such, I can't really support the "avoid all fights", because while it's a good strategy, it's not always what the situation calls for. So, like fighting- use it when the situation calls for it.

Edited November 25, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[strawdog65]

Keeping in mind that I do not research and study every known sage of history or legend...

 

I don't think that all were. Just like I don't think that all of them were physical alchemists, diviners, healers, tradesmen, teachers, etc etc.

 

I think that they all realized the tao through their unique path. So I think some of them could have reached it through martial arts.

 

As a consequence of realizing the tao, they see (saw?) the tao in everything, thus, they could do anything the situation required.

 

Which includes fighting.

 

Were they all martial artists as we might call them today? Probably not.

 

Were some of them? Probably.

 

Did they all realize the tao? Yes.

 

Could they have fought, had the tao flowed in that direction? I believe so, yes.

 

 

But again, as someone had pointed out in the taoist magic thread I started, us observing might see that they are doing various different things- fighting, magic, etc etc, but to a sage, they are just following the energy, changing, and following again. But to us, we wee a mountain moved, or an army of enemies defeated. So in the case of a sage, hard to say.

 

 

 

 

I'm with Sloopy Zhang on this one!

 

I like the thought process of realized Tao,

manifesting in the Sages depending on what

was necessary at that moment.

The perception of the outside observer being

the only label of what action was taken.

 

I would surmise, that to the Sage, his actions felt

like nothing more than the free flowing of the

Tao through his body, regardless of what type

of resolution was found.

 

Peace!

[Aaron]

Hello people,

 

So essentially we assume they were, but have no proof to verify it with? See in my own experience with the Lao Tzu I have never felt that the Sages were martial artists. What I sense is that if I was going to compare them to anything it would probably be a philosopher.

 

In particular, there is no indication, or mention of martial prowess whatsoever, so I assume that they were not considered to be these things. I think this notion came about later on, as the influence of traditional Chinese practices began to influence religious Taoism. When they started to imply elements of the i-ching, traditional folk medicine, and other philosophies to the Tao, this allowed for a martial practice to form.

 

Just my own thoughts. Again any proof to the contrary would be greatly appreciated.

 

Aaron

[Apech]

If you take the broad term warrior which denotes a certain attitude or approach to life then I think Ch 15 is a good summation. Careful, alert, courteous and so on could be taken as the definition of a warrior way. Obviously this does not mean that they actually practiced martial arts but at the time they lived there was a lot of fighting and a lot of people who lived by the sword. Much of what human's know about themselves comes from the experience of warfare and so it is natural for anyone interested in cultivation is also interested in the wisdom that the martial arts can bring.

[Aaron]

Hello Apech,

 

I think the important thing to keep in mind is that Lao Tzu's Tao Teh Ching talks about war and never sheds a good light on it. I think if one applies those passages they can see that Lao Tzu was not talking about conflict, or defending one's self from conflict in a martial sense, but rather noting that there was a natural way for things to occur.

 

This doesn't mean that one can't apply the ideas of the Tao Teh Ching to martial arts, I'm just making the point that it wasn't Lao Tzu's intent that it be used as such, and rather, that those people who started to apply it to those principles were more or less using it as a way to justify it and make the practice more palatable.

 

Aaron

Edited November 25, 2010 by Twinner

[rene]

[Apech]

Hello Apech,

 

I think the important thing to keep in mind is that Lao Tzu's Tao Teh Ching talks about war and never sheds a good light on it. I think if one applies those passages they can see that Lao Tzu was not talking about conflict, or defending one's self from conflict in a martial sense, but rather noting that there was a natural way for things to occur.

 

This doesn't mean that one can't apply the ideas of the Tao Teh Ching to martial arts, I'm just making the point that it wasn't Lao Tzu's intent that it be used as such, and rather, that those people who started to apply it to those principles were more or less using it as a way to justify it and make the practice more palatable.

 

Aaron

 

Well I don't disagree with you .... of course if you ask most soldiers they won't say much that's good about war and fighting either ... I wasn't suggesting that Lao Tzu was advocating a martial outlook rather a way of being which has been informed to some degree by the experience of war and conflict (which in some historical periods was a more or less day to day thing).

[Warrior Body Buddha Mind]

My primordial chaos one chi palm system is directly from Lao Tzu teachings - The system was created by 2 of Lao tzu's top disciples. Its combinese I ching, and all daoist theoies, and there is a secret 7 character poem with over 80 poems to tell you about cultivation, how to play the form, magic, transformation, returning to the Dao, it also has information that is similar to Tao Te Ching and much more.

 

 

There is a daoist master that has Lao Tzu - Feng Shui qi kung from dragon gate china, so if he was just a spiritual sage there wouldn't be daoyin type methods of Lao Tzu unless they just using the Lao Tzu name in that case.

 

Sifu Garry

[rene]

I'm just making the point that it wasn't Lao Tzu's intent

 

I'll disagree with any statement that says what was or wasn't Lao Tzu's intent.

 

(Even if I happen to agree with it, which in this case I dont.)

 

Interesting ideas presented here... "using Lao Tzu name" seems to abound.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Hello people,

 

So essentially we assume they were, but have no proof to verify it with? See in my own experience with the Lao Tzu I have never felt that the Sages were martial artists. What I sense is that if I was going to compare them to anything it would probably be a philosopher.

 

In particular, there is no indication, or mention of martial prowess whatsoever, so I assume that they were not considered to be these things. I think this notion came about later on, as the influence of traditional Chinese practices began to influence religious Taoism. When they started to imply elements of the i-ching, traditional folk medicine, and other philosophies to the Tao, this allowed for a martial practice to form.

 

Just my own thoughts. Again any proof to the contrary would be greatly appreciated.

 

Aaron

 

Computers are also not mentioned in the Bible, so Christians hoping to follow in the footsteps of Christ would not be helped along with a computer, since there was no mention. Of course, since we can't go back in time and show the writers of the Bible a computer, we'd never be able to know beyond our own surmising, nor would we ever get proof to the contrary.

 

My point is that, even if you view the Tao Te Ching as philosophy, or the Bible as spiritual guidance, you can't just limit yourself to exactly what is written. Lao Tzu did not speak much of training martial arts, nor does he speak of cooks- does that mean one can't discover the tao through cooking? He doesn't mention comedians- does that mean a comedian cannot discover the tao through comedy? Does that mean they cannot apply the philosophy of the Tao Te Ching to either of their craft, just because Lao Tzu didn't write it? Does it mean a Christian, or for that matter, any follower of any religion/philosophy, can't discover a universal truth through their own microcosm?

 

I do not think so.

 

The notion of a philosopher sitting around and thinking is great. They give us good ideas, and give us much to think about. But if you really think the Tao Te Ching philosophy (or Christian religious views, or Buddhist views, or anything else) is really a universal truth, then the truth should be self evident EVERYWHERE. Lover, fighter, philosopher, artist, cook, comedian, actor, banker, etc etc etc etc. You don't need to say, "well it's not written in the Tao Te Ching/Bible/etc so we should not spend our times on something that isn't advocated".

 

It's a rather limiting approach, IMHO, to do so.

Edited November 25, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[Alfred E]

My link

I must point out that I have never run into this idea prior to coming to the Tao Bums forum, but it seems that there is a debate as to whether the Sages mentioned in the Tao Teh Ching were actual practicioners of martial arts. My own opinion is that they weren't and I believe that chapter 15 is an excellent point of reference for arguing against that idea.

 

With that said, if anyone has a difference of opinion, I would like to hear it, especially if they can provide evidence to support that opinion.

 

On another level, I think this relates to whether or not there is a justification for martial study under the pretext of cultivating Tao. In regards to this, I would say that modern martial arts has less to do with the Tao Teh Ching and Chuang Tzu, than it does the I-ching and other folk traditions practiced in Ancient China.

 

Aaron

 

Sages seek first to learn. The key you are searching for may be in another book.

Here is the connection -albeit in alchemical terms- that I will try to explain at the end:

 

Jade Emperor's Mind Seal Classic

 

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

1. The Supreme Medicine has three distinctions:

Ching (essence), Qi (vitality) and Shen (spirit), which are elusive and obscure.

 

2. Keep to nonbeing, yet hold on to being and perfection is yours in an instant.

 

3. When distant winds blend together,

in one hundred days of spiritual work

And morning recitation to the Shang Ti,

Then in one year you will soar as an immortal.

 

4. The sages awaken through self-cultivation;

Deep, profound, their practices require great effort.

 

5. Fulfilling vows illumines the Heavens.

 

6. Breathing nourishes youthfulness.

 

7. Departing from the Mysterious, entering the female.

It appears to have perished, yet appears to exist.

Unmoveable, it's orgin is mysterious.

 

8. Each person has Ching.

The Shen unites with the Ching,

The Shen unites with the Qi,

The breath then unites with the true nature,

These terms appear to be fanciful exaggerations.

 

9. The Shen is capable of entering stone;

The Shen is capable of physical flight.

Entering water it is not drowned;

Entering fire it is not burned.

 

10. The Shen depends on life form;

The Ching depends on sufficient Qi.

If these are neither depleted nor injured

the result will be youthfulness and longevity.

 

11. These three distinctions have one principle,

Yet so subtle it cannot be heard.

 

12. Their meeting results in existence,

their parting results in nonexistence.

 

13. The seven apertures interpenetrate

and each emits wisdom light.

 

14. The sacred sun and sacred moon

Illumuniate the Golden Court.

One attainment is eternal attainment.

 

15. The body will naturally become weightless.

When the supreme harmony is replete,

the bone fragments become like winter jade.

 

16. Acquiring the Elixir results in immortality,

not acquiring it results in extinction.

 

17. The Elixir is within yourself,

It is not white and not green.

 

18. Recite and hold ten thousand times.

These are the subtle principles of self-illumination.

 

(Lu Szu-hsing's appended verses)

 

19. The two images of the dragon and tiger are unified through Qi;

Chaos blending as One.

 

20. It is not possible to attain the eternal just through invocations.

 

21. The Elixir is called Green Dragon and White Tiger;

The Elixir is in the nature of no-nature,

Emptiness of nonemptiness.

 

22. Even if you are unable to make use of the substance,

You can certainly make use of the function.

 

23. Frequently both the substance and conditions for the substance appear together,

although these are not always percieved as identical.

 

24. The ancients said, "the term *emptiness* embraces the entire teaching."

 

* Transliterated by Stuart Olson

 

Numbers i through 18 give the amount of time you will need to spend on the study and the method (In alchemical terms)

 

The key is in dragon and tiger of Lu Szu-hsing's appended verses #'s19 through 24.

 

There are actually 2 dragons which are body and breath with the tiger being the mind/meditation. Some years ago I discovered a white, carved, flat river rock, in China, that had 2 water dragons (dragons with a fish tail) on right and left sides, tiger on top with all three holding on to the Yin/Yang symbol in the center. The stone was milky white quartz crystal. A few years later, I found the book titled: 'Jade Emperor's Mind Seal Classic - It is still available in USA. Click here for the book.

 

' (In China, books in English are more rare than those written in Chinese)

 

The connection to the martial arts is that the body must experience aerobic exercise untill some tired and then rest while focusing on calming the breath and meditate. Tiger is mind, dragons are body and breath. The Tao is the method.

The final key is pointing to #24: "The ancients said, "the term *emptiness* embraces the entire teaching."

In other words you must study Empty mind meditation.

 

To begin with your study I suggest you find the book "The Five Tibetans" by Christopher Kilham For the Book, Click here

 

As you progress through the Kundalini exercises, I suggest you find a Yoga teacher to pass on the information about the Savasana exercise to be focused on the Empty Mind meditation techniques. For an introductory Webpage on the Savasana click here

Edited November 26, 2010 by Alfred E

[Guan-Wen]

[寒月 Hanyue]

I must point out that I have never run into this idea prior to coming to the Tao Bums forum, but it seems that there is a debate as to whether the Sages mentioned in the Tao Teh Ching were actual practicioners of martial arts. My own opinion is that they weren't and I believe that chapter 15 is an excellent point of reference for arguing against that idea.

 

With that said, if anyone has a difference of opinion, I would like to hear it, especially if they can provide evidence to support that opinion.

 

On another level, I think this relates to whether or not there is a justification for martial study under the pretext of cultivating Tao. In regards to this, I would say that modern martial arts has less to do with the Tao Teh Ching and Chuang Tzu, than it does the I-ching and other folk traditions practiced in Ancient China.

 

Aaron

 

Hi Aaron

 

I have never read anything that makes me associate Lao Tzu (or Chuang tzu) or the sages mentioned as being martial artists. I had never even considered this connection until this thread.

 

That does not mean they were not, of course.

 

I certainly know plenty of martial artists who find benefit from the texts, but then they are mostly the orientlalist/exoticist types who love all ancient oriental things, anyway. Doesn't make many of the texts they read about martial arts though.

 

There is still considerable debate, both scholarly and lay, over what the contents of the Lao Tzu relate to. People see what they want to see, always have always will. I think the beauty and the power of the early daoist texts was in their capacity to enrich, empower, and speak to people through their life experiences regardless of what it was. To be able to say so much and yet be so vague.

 

So whether you are a dancer, a potter, a scientist, a martial artist, or anything else, the texts will have a way to speak to you.

 

Best

[fiveelementtao]

Lao Tzu was not one man but more likely a pseudonym used by many writers who compiled the Tao Te Ching over many years. So, that in itself makes it more likely that at least some of the writers of the Tao Te Ching were martial Artists.

 

We all want to identify with sages. If one is not a martial artist, then it makes sense that one would instinctively want to see the sages as we are. If we are martial artists, then we will instinctively want to project onto Lao Tzu that he must be a martial artist like me... So, my question is, Why do you care? How does that fact change anything? Do you believe that martial arts is violence and therefore "unspiritual"? IF so, then naturally one would not want to think that a sage like Lao Tzu was an unspiritual violent person.

 

As a martial artist myself, I can attest that IME, the highest form of martial arts is to fight spiritual negativity within oneself. by that definition, any sage is a martial artist regardless of whether or not it is applied to physical fighting.

 

It is also important to remember the historical and cultural context in which the TTC was written. Life was considerably more dangerous for the average person on the street than it is nowadays. There was no such thing as guns and most people had some form of weapon on their person for self-defense. Each village had it's own secret style of martial arts because there always bands of bandits roaming around, and frequent regional wars were not uncommon. If people did not know martial arts, there is a very good chance they would not survive.

 

It is also very likely that the writers of the TTC were cultured men from well to do families. To be considered educated in China in those days, one would study many different disciplines. Martial Arts would always be one of those disciplines. Whereas in today's society, martial arts is considered an optional "hobby." Back then, it was a part of everyday life, so people did not go around identifying as martial artists.

 

But, what is most important to me about the TTC is that it is a scripture. What do I mean by scripture? I mean that it is a timeless holographic text that speaks to every aspect of life. So, regardless of what one's focus is, the TTC will speak to it. If one applies the principles of the TTC to whatever aspect of life you choose, it will enhance it.

 

Martial Arts, like everything else is merely a limited reflection of universal physics and as such will reflect any truth including those espoused by the TTC.

Edited April 20, 2011 by fiveelementtao

[adept]

The system was created by 2 of Lao tzu's top disciples.

 

Lao Tzu probably never existed.

The DDJ is most likely the work of many hands.

Who are these 'top disciples' of the fabled 'Lao Tzu' ?

[Friend]

Edited November 16, 2011 by Friend

[Otis]

I think there are some great replies on this thread.

 

Personally, I am a dancer, and tend to see things in dance metaphor. From that perspective, I have a hard time seeing how one can liberate, without physical cultivation. How can I be free, if my body is still a slave to my habits? As long as I experience my body as discrete parts, instead of as energy, then I am imprisoned by my own beliefs about my body.

 

Even though I am a pacifist, I do still believe that engaging in some fighting play is useful, if not necessary. Mankind evolved during a time when violence and killing were an intrinsic part of life. I do not see these qualities of mankind as wrong, only as out-of-place with modern society. If I ignore these functions in myself, then they will remain strangers to me, and they will leak out in awkward ways, when crisis is upon me. But if I make friends with my violence, get to understand and appreciate my functions toward self-defense, then I will be able to stay centered and aware, rather than getting hijacked by my fight-or-flight response.

[Sloppy Zhang]

I think there are some great replies on this thread.

 

I agree!

 

I think the beauty and the power of the early daoist texts was in their capacity to enrich, empower, and speak to people through their life experiences regardless of what it was. To be able to say so much and yet be so vague.

 

So whether you are a dancer, a potter, a scientist, a martial artist, or anything else, the texts will have a way to speak to you.

 

Best

 

As a martial artist myself, I can attest that IME, the highest form of martial arts is to fight spiritual negativity within oneself. by that definition, any sage is a martial artist regardless of whether or not it is applied to physical fighting.

 

It is also important to remember the historical and cultural context in which the TTC was written. Life was considerably more dangerous for the average person on the street than it is nowadays. There was no such thing as guns and most people had some form of weapon on their person for self-defense. Each village had it's own secret style of martial arts because there always bands of bandits roaming around, and frequent regional wars were not uncommon. If people did not know martial arts, there is a very good chance they would not survive.

 

It is also very likely that the writers of the TTC were cultured men from well to do families. To be considered educated in China in those days, one would study many different disciplines. Martial Arts would always be one of those disciplines. Whereas in today's society, martial arts is considered an optional "hobby." Back then, it was a part of everyday life, so people did not go around identifying as martial artists.

 

But, what is most important to me about the TTC is that it is a scripture. What do I mean by scripture? I mean that it is a timeless holographic text that speaks to every aspect of life. So, regardless of what one's focus is, the TTC will speak to it. If one applies the principles of the TTC to whatever aspect of life you choose, it will enhance it.

 

Martial Arts, like everything else is merely a limited reflection of universal physics and as such will reflect any truth including those espoused by the TTC.

 

Great stuff all around!

[Dagon]

I think that it doesn't matter if they did or not.

 

Although many times martial artists are that for power, it does little to aid them in the long run. If a martial Artist is without selfish ego and doesn't desire power then there is no harm in practicing.

 

Also when one says all or non, they are generally wrong.

Edited April 21, 2011 by Dagon

[doc benway]

I must point out that I have never run into this idea prior to coming to the Tao Bums forum, but it seems that there is a debate as to whether the Sages mentioned in the Tao Teh Ching were actual practicioners of martial arts. My own opinion is that they weren't and I believe that chapter 15 is an excellent point of reference for arguing against that idea.

 

With that said, if anyone has a difference of opinion, I would like to hear it, especially if they can provide evidence to support that opinion.

 

On another level, I think this relates to whether or not there is a justification for martial study under the pretext of cultivating Tao. In regards to this, I would say that modern martial arts has less to do with the Tao Teh Ching and Chuang Tzu, than it does the I-ching and other folk traditions practiced in Ancient China.

 

Aaron

For the most part, most of our knowledge of "the sages" is based on myth, legend, fairy tales, and exaggerated stories handed down for generations. Detailed and exacting knowledge is questionable at best. That said, I would infer that people with the desire to cultivate themselves intellectually are often similarly disposed to cultivate the spiritual and physical aspects of themselves. Martial arts were one of the more common ways to do this in those times in China. Therefore, I think it's reasonable to assert that many of "the sages" were, in fact, martial artists. The jian, for example, was rarely, if ever, used as a weapon of combat but was favored by the upper classes, intellectuals, and martial artists - not the military. Another suggestion of the intersection of martial arts and scholars, intellectuals, and, perhaps, sage-types.

[doc benway]

As a martial artist myself, I can attest that IME, the highest form of martial arts is to fight spiritual negativity within oneself. by that definition, any sage is a martial artist regardless of whether or not it is applied to physical fighting.

Beautifully and succinctly put.

[Friend]

Edited November 16, 2011 by Friend