Building Chi

[Tao of the Afro]

Here's another noob question for you guys:

 

What exercises build yang chi? The storage area for yang chi is the lower dan tien, correct? What exercises build yin chi? The storage area for yin chi is the middle dan tien, right?

[Gerard]

From a Daoist perspective you can't distinguish between the two as both interact with each other at the same time and both will be worked upon.

 

From a Western perspective, yang qi: any physical activity really, especially strength training exercises. Yin qi: sleep... lol.

[Tao of the Afro]

I'm quite the noob. I've heard of some exercises/practices focusing/cultivating more of one than the other. So by what you're saying, by cultivating the active yang chi, I'm actually cultivating yin chi too?

 

Also, which exercises build yang chi? I was thinking something like crane breathing would, but then again, I have no idea about anything. lmao

[Gerard]

Work hard (but relaxed 110%) the horse stance and you'll go a long way. You can even meditate by keeping that stance making sure you maintain both hands together as if you were praying. Make sure you work slowly down and keeping spine erect. This takes a considerable amount of time and effort but will build your Qi and massage all your internal organs.

 

Search in He Jinghan's YT channel for exercises, he offers a ton for free.

[NeiChuan]

Meditate.

 

 

That western enough for you Gerard? Haha

[zerostao]

Here's another noob question for you guys:

 

What exercises build yang chi? The storage area for yang chi is the lower dan tien, correct? What exercises build yin chi? The storage area for yin chi is the middle dan tien, right?

do you practice taiji? i always recommend taiji even if i practice bagua. with bagua when i coil that is yin movement , when i uncoil it becomes yang. inhale is yin, exhale is yang. i wish to store all of my qi in the area just below my navel, close to my center of gravity. taiji gives birth to yin and yang movements.

[pilot]

Work hard (but relaxed 110%) the horse stance and you'll go a long way.

If a long way means lasting pressure in your head from zhan zhuang it certainly did not agree with me, and I have followed safety precautions. I'd rather stick to the stances while doing qigong or taij for that.

 

speaking from theory, check out Yang Jwing-Ming's concerning Huo and Sui Qi. Even gentle attention isn't as clear cut as I've read it can stagnate as much as energize (ex. focusing on Qihai instead of Dantian is promoted by some, and location varies depending on lineage). Some speak of dantian but instead (cryptically) mean the 'center' further confusing the distinction between what true nei dan may be and its relationship to wai dan (do the ribs really convert the two?).

 

I see no point leaping towards everything I hear about even if it works for someone; instead I stick with the basics and from experience see what is true, and take it from there. Said otherwise, there's a point where method meets experience, and the rules change.

[Tao of the Afro]

Work hard (but relaxed 110%) the horse stance and you'll go a long way. You can even meditate by keeping that stance making sure you maintain both hands together as if you were praying. Make sure you work slowly down and keeping spine erect. This takes a considerable amount of time and effort but will build your Qi and massage all your internal organs.

 

Search in He Jinghan's YT channel for exercises, he offers a ton for free.

 

What do you mean by "work hard the horse stance"?

[devoid]

Hi Tao of the Afro,

 

Here's Ma Bu (Horse Stand) for you:

[Aetherous]

That way of horse stance can be really horrible for your knees! Most of us don't (and will not ever) have the training regimen and experience of Shaolin monks. Also, most of us have weak knees to begin with (whether you know it or not).

 

Check out the book Way of Energy. It teaches a good way of how to stand for qi building.

[dawei]

Yin in internal; Yang is external. Yin dwells. Yang guards.

 

For Yang Qi, I would therefore focus on the lower dan tian and building up that Qi reserve for all the meridians and vessels (which guard the body). Nei gong and meditation is a primary consideration.

 

For Yin Qi, I would focus on the Yin organs: Heart, Kidney, Liver, Lung, Spleen. These practices can use the aid of sound, color, tongue position, etc.

 

Also in general: Just breath in Yang Qi vs Yin Qi. Some use hands up (Yang from heaven) or crown of head and hands down (Yin from earth) and feet; But you can just start by thinking it with breathing.

 

Only because you bring up the middle dan tian: It is not mentioned as much for exercises or training due to it's proximity to the heart (Fire Qi). You can easily cause yourself serious problems if your not careful in this area.

 

If your practice includes [eventually] to breath from your crown downward and your feet upward, Yin organs, and and Qi circulations, the middle really gets taken care of. There are some specific breathing to get in touch with that area and there is the Tai Ji Pole which connects all three, but I would not really recommend going further into this without some guidance.

[onlyindreams]

That way of horse stance can be really horrible for your knees! Most of us don't (and will not ever) have the training regimen and experience of Shaolin monks. Also, most of us have weak knees to begin with (whether you know it or not).

 

Check out the book Way of Energy. It teaches a good way of how to stand for qi building.

 

you are holding yourself back with that mindset

 

 

 

that squat position is not impossible to attain, nor is it 'horrible' for your knees, in fact, such exercise and movements can only strengthen the sinew and tendons that govern that knee joint and the muscles involved in invoking the power of the core / lower dan tien (and i'll go as far as to say that perhaps the deep squat is the best way to protect the knees from its eventual slow deterioration)

 

in fact, it is one of the most fundamental and 'comfortable' movements of the human body

 

 

 

perhaps with terrible form and more than double your bodyweight on a barbell on your back compressing your spine and joints, such deep squatting can be detrimental to the knee joint, but with bodyweight, hellll no

 

ever since practicing deep squatting and lateral squats while focusing on my breathing and sense of root, my legs have never been stronger

 

and on a subtler level, my sense of 'spaciousness' has never been so pronounced

my breath feels like a bellows, something that i have never experienced thus far in my life

 

 

 

 

its all about consistency of practice, dedication, and awareness of body

 

again, and in conclusion, deep (bodyweight) squatting is truly a foundational exercise

 

 

if you are serious, you will work towards it

Edited November 25, 2010 by onlyindreams

[NeiChuan]

you are holding yourself back with that mindset

 

 

 

that squat position is not impossible to attain, nor is it 'horrible' for your knees, in fact, such exercise and movements can only strengthen the sinew and tendons that govern that knee joint and the muscles involved in invoking the power of the core / lower dan tien (and i'll go as far as to say that perhaps the deep squat is the best way to protect the knees from its eventual slow deterioration)

 

in fact, it is one of the most fundamental and 'comfortable' movements of the human body

 

 

 

perhaps with terrible form and more than double your bodyweight on a barbell, such deep squatting can be detrimental to the knee joint, but with bodyweight, hellll no

 

ever since practicing deep squatting and lateral squats while focusing on my breathing and sense of root, my legs have never been stronger

 

and on a subtler level, my sense of 'spaciousness' has never been so pronounced

my breath feels like a bellows, something that i have never experienced thus far in my life

 

 

 

 

its all about consistency of practice, dedication, and awareness of body

 

again, and in conclusion, deep (bodyweight) squatting is truly a foundational exercise

 

 

if you are serious, you will work towards it

 

Have to keep in mind, a majority of people live rather weakling lives before they take up horse stance or even running.

 

If you're not out and about when you pick up horse stance, you can very well mess up your knees, just like running, whether or not just body weight.

 

Why? Because the knees and even feet are underdeveloped.. So even the body weight is a heavy load on your knees.

 

Running is a good example. Lot of kenyan began there childhood and even as teenagers ran barefoot (while so many people in the US injure themselves in shoes). So now as they're grown they can run with shoes without injuring themselves. Because there feet haven't been neglected.

 

The same is with horse stance and the knees.. Do some squats before you move onto an isometric position like horse stance, develop your knees just a bit.

 

I agree with the point horse stance will strengthen and even correct injury, although if they began Neglected in the first place, you're asking for an injury.

Edited November 25, 2010 by NeiChuan

[Gerard]

That way of horse stance can be really horrible for your knees! Most of us don't (and will not ever) have the training regimen and experience of Shaolin monks. Also, most of us have weak knees to begin with (whether you know it or not).

 

It has got nothing to do with the knees, but the leg channels and tendon stretching, kwa and ankle flexibility.

 

You need specific training to develop correct horse stance like the one the Shaolin monk is showing. He Jinghan gives this info for free but it's very difficult to learn from a video if the learning is complex, like in our case.

[Aetherous]

General rule of thumb: if an anonymous person on a forum tells you that something dangerous is actually safe, don't listen to them. They are most likely lacking experience and education.

[devoid]

That way of horse stance can be really horrible for your knees! Most of us don't (and will not ever) have the training regimen and experience of Shaolin monks. Also, most of us have weak knees to begin with (whether you know it or not).

 

Hi Scotty,

 

If you follow a few simple guidelines you won't damage your knees:

Knees must be fully aligned with the feet - no twisting and no skewing of the knee to the left or to the right. Also knees may never be further out than the toes and should preferably be comfortably behind the toes somewhere over the foot (in a straight drop line from the knees).

 

Apart from that: The clip I posted shows how its done by somebody who does it to perfection: you don't achieve that overnight (or within a year for that matter!)

 

The Golden rule is always never to overdo it. And if it hurts: Stop! Think about it and give it a rest. Then try again a few days later and this time make an effort out of making sure that nothing hurts.

 

As Gerard indicated among other things: Ma Bu is primarily about stretching the tendons.

 

I would even argue that it strengthens the knees - at least that is my experience. After having done it regularly for a long time (and I don't mean for tens of minutes at a time - starting and 10 seconds, working up to perhaps a minute or two - perhaps one day after a long time deciding to take it further... but do it daily!) you begin to realize how "sitting in" ma bu means actually "hanging" there stretching your tendons. Contrary to what it looks like, this is not an exercise for the thighs! Once you realize this, ma bu becomes more comfortable and meaningful

 

Funny thing though in the midst of all this knee discussion: The hardest thing about a good ma bu IMHO is not so much about how deep you can hinge on your knees because your current limit will be obvious when your sitting in it: The hardest part is about keeping the spine straight (and I mean vertical) thus ensuring that the butt doesn't stick out - as the Monk in clip demonstrates - here you also have to have an alert, yet relaxed posture for your arms. Practicing with large a mirror at your side can be very helpful in helping you adjust.

 

Remember: little by little - only practice makes perfect.

[Aetherous]

Devoid,

 

I agree completely with your suggestions.

 

And not to argue with you, but if you're practicing horse stance as you suggest (which isn't for a long period of time) then it isn't a qi building exercise anymore...but rather a stretching/strengthening exercise.

[Gerard]

General rule of thumb: if an anonymous person on a forum tells you that something dangerous is actually safe, don't listen to them. They are most likely lacking experience and education.

 

This is the funniest response I read here in a long time.

 

1. Dangerous

2. Don't listen

3. Lacking

 

Work on your negativity.

[Aetherous]

Gerard,

 

You're just taking things personally. My intent here is simply to help people not hurt themselves. What is your intent?

Edited November 25, 2010 by Scotty

[onlyindreams]

General rule of thumb: if an anonymous person on a forum tells you that something dangerous is actually safe, don't listen to them. They are most likely lacking experience and education.

 

it seems youve already taken offense so don't take it here when i say that I as well would read any posts from you with a grain of salt

 

now back to the horse stance:

 

i speak from experience and some understanding of human physical potential, exercise science / kinesiology, and anatomy... this is one of my passions

 

now, from my experience in squatting countless repetitions, i have concluded that squatting with attention to form and also awareness of overtraining is the furthest thing from being 'dangerous'

 

 

i don't know where and what you base this assumption from -

 

is it from personal experience? or something you read or heard about?

 

have you ever practiced the horse stance with any consistency?

 

i ask these questions because i am curious, because i am willing to accept all knowledge as valid if it makes sense and has a measure of potency

Edited November 26, 2010 by onlyindreams

[onlyindreams]

This is the funniest response I read here in a long time.

 

1. Dangerous

2. Don't listen

3. Lacking

 

Work on your negativity.

 

yes... i noticed this as well...

 

let's work together on discussing the knowledge and being understanding of where another is coming from because this thread is one of the few that have caught my eye in weeks

 

 

gerard, can you tell us about your understanding of how training in the stance builds / stabilizes qi?

[onlyindreams]

Gerard,

 

You're just taking things personally. My intent here is simply to help people not hurt themselves. What is your intent?

 

but by telling them that they will hurt themselves when they won't, you dissuade potential seekers and cultivators from a true gem, a REAL exercise that is worthy of all of one's effort

 

you must atleast present your point of view, why you consider the horse stance / deep squatting dangerous.

[Spectrum]

Yin chi (qi) by my experience takes on very cool menthol properties. It is qualitatively differnt in experience from the wArmth of yang chi. In standing meditation(wuji) it has commonly manifested after the shaking stops. It is very healing. I have also experienced it in sitting meditation after particularLy "draining" training sessions and seems directly connected with the bodies restoritive process.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Others are correct in pointing out the dangers of practices such as these, especially in an uninformed way.

 

No, this is not some forms of "negative vibes", it's not just some psychological "holding you back" statement. It is a legitimate view of the pitfalls that exist in a path such as this, and if one is ever to succeed, one must know the dangers, and know how to avoid them. Knowing is half the battle.

 

The problem is not necessarily in the form itself, it's in the people and their mindset going into the form.

 

Many people living a "modern lifestyle" in a "developed country" just do not have the natural conditioning or intuitive awareness of healthy body alignments that people in the past, and in other lifestyles, possess. They don't know about opening the kwa, they don't know how to protect the knees and the ankles. There are people who are "healthy", and by the time they hit their mid 20's, have a bunch of knee and ankle problems because their exercise regiment did not address or protect those joints.

 

Not everyone has the knowledge of anatomy to know what is a natural alignment and what is an unnatural alignment. On top of that, they hear sayings like, "pain is impurities leaving your body", "pain is something you must work through to build strength and chi", and don't know that standing in a NEGATIVE alignment will only produce PROBLEMS.

 

Again, this is not about negative vibes or psychological tricks for success. This is a fact of the human body.

 

So, just a word of caution to someone about to get into these practices, especially someone who isn't that active, or who is not familiar with how to protect the joints (especially the method of doing so in meditation, qigong, and martial arts), take it slow. If you feel pain, STOP. Check the alignment. Check how the teacher is teaching, and check your own. Find other teachers and other styles, see how they do it. No, don't listen to crap about "jack of all trades, master of none", or "looking around at other styles will just lead you to neglect your own"- some teachers (who may or may not be legitimately connected to a lineage) really do think they are practicing the right way, and wind up with themselves, or students, having serious health problems.

 

And yes, this is from experience! One of my karate teachers thought he'd learn to incorporate some qigong practices into his karate to boost performance, didn't both to check where he learned it from, verify it with other sources, then him and others, who were practicing it the wrong way, wound up with some serious joint problems. They thought they got a "boost in strength", which lasted a couple of years, then their bodies literally broke!

 

So just be careful.

[Aetherous]

No, this is not some forms of "negative vibes", it's not just some psychological "holding you back" statement. It is a legitimate view of the pitfalls that exist in a path such as this, and if one is ever to succeed, one must know the dangers, and know how to avoid them. Knowing is half the battle.

 

Exactly.

 

you must atleast present your point of view, why you consider the horse stance / deep squatting dangerous.

 

The knee isn't designed to handle bodyweight at that angle, unless you have perfect form...and even then, it could cause damage. I go to school for physical therapy/athletic training, so this is not some unqualified statement. I've studied the anatomy/biomechanics of the knee in depth, and have seen many knee injuries during my clinicals...

 

The knee is a modified hinge joint. It is primarily designed to flex and extend...forward and backward, like when the feet are shoulder distance apart. Going into horse stance (which is very wide) applies rotational forces to the structures at unnatural angles, either injuring you directly, or setting yourself up for easy injury by malforming the lateral structures.

 

If there is pressure felt within the knee, you're doing it wrong. The lower leg should be straight. The knee should be aligned directly above the foot, as if the patella is pointing where the second toe is pointing and not going too far beyond the toes (which would overstress the anterior structures). The ankle should be aligned as if standing normally. The stretching and strengthening should completely take place in the upper thigh and hip musculature.

 

I consider these two pictures to be good examples:

 

 

 

Most people can't even accomplish these basics of the form...myself included!

 

Listen: this topic is about building qi. Horse stance has been suggested, and I do think it's a good exercise if you are able to do it right. It's just risky. Zhan zhuang is just as good for building qi, and is relatively safe.

 

Edit: Also, I'm not a horse stance instructor...I'm sure there is even more involved in performing it correctly. I don't mean to give tips on something that I don't personally train.

Edited November 26, 2010 by Scotty