"no forced conversion" - or aspects of same

[3bob]

[Aaron]

I'm not sure what you're trying to gain from this topic? Are we discussing forced conversion or that Buddhists didn't feel the need to convert or are you trying to comment on something that's happening on this forum without pointing fingers? If you could clarify, I think it would help to get the topic going.

 

Aaron

[3bob]

I'm not sure what you're trying to gain from this topic? Are we discussing forced conversion or that Buddhists didn't feel the need to convert or are you trying to comment on something that's happening on this forum without pointing fingers? If you could clarify, I think it would help to get the topic going.

 

Aaron

 

The quote could seem out of the blue to some. (but not to others) It could also be applied in general to various ways... whether it gets going as a topic or not remains to be seen but as a reminder it has been submitted.

[strawdog65]

The quote could seem out of the blue to some. (but not to others) It could also be applied in general to various ways... whether it gets going as a topic or not remains to be seen but as a reminder it has been submitted.

 

I know where you are going.....

 

And, I like it!

 

Peace!

[doc benway]

Nice quote. When we find something that makes sense to us, I think it is very natural to become enthusiastic about our insights. It can be a subtle boundary between sharing something that excites us and making someone else feel that their own values or beliefs are being challenged. I don't follow the goings on much lately so I don't know of anything specific but its always good to be reminded about courtesy and civility.

Thanks 3bob

[Aaron]

The quote could seem out of the blue to some. (but not to others) It could also be applied in general to various ways... whether it gets going as a topic or not remains to be seen but as a reminder it has been submitted.

 

 

My point (made through cajolery) was that making the qoute is a bit hypocritical if you're intent was not to do what was being said. It would be better to ask, "why do so many Buddists come to this forum trying to convert people?" Or we could just mention the recent post on "enlightenment being assured" and go from there.

 

I don't really care so much about it, because it's no skin off my nose. Most Taoists feel no need to try to convert others to Taoism, though they do tend to rise up in arms if you attempt to contradict traditional views. In the same way MOST Buddhists believe that there's no need for conversion, but in the same way they teach their children about Buddhism from an early age (as do Taoists).

 

It is normal (not necessarily natural), if we believe what we have learned is beneficial and "true" to try and tell other people about that truth. In fact if one is working under the pretenses of society, especially Western society, it would be bad form not to.

 

Honestly though, when was the last time someone came up to you on the street and asked, "have you heard the good news of the Tao?"

 

The fact is, the misinformed will feel the need to make people aware of the truth, the informed will realize everything is already true.

 

Aaron

Edited November 27, 2010 by Twinner

[Marblehead]

I know where you are going.....

 

And, I like it!

 

Peace!

 

 

Hehehe. I ain't sayin' nuttin'.

[3bob]

Nice quote. When we find something that makes sense to us, I think it is very natural to become enthusiastic about our insights. It can be a subtle boundary between sharing something that excites us and making someone else feel that their own values or beliefs are being challenged. I don't follow the goings on much lately so I don't know of anything specific but its always good to be reminded about courtesy and civility.

Thanks 3bob

 

Thanks Steve that's cool.

[3bob]

My point (made through cajolery) was that making the qoute is a bit hypocritical if you're intent was not to do what was being said. It would be better to ask, "why do so many Buddists come to this forum trying to convert people?" Or we could just mention the recent post on "enlightenment being assured" and go from there.

 

I don't really care so much about it, because it's no skin off my nose. Most Taoists feel no need to try to convert others to Taoism, though they do tend to rise up in arms if you attempt to contradict traditional views. In the same way MOST Buddhists believe that there's no need for conversion, but in the same way they teach their children about Buddhism from an early age (as do Taoists).

 

It is normal (not necessarily natural), if we believe what we have learned is beneficial and "true" to try and tell other people about that truth. In fact if one is working under the pretenses of society, especially Western society, it would be bad form not to.

 

Honestly though, when was the last time someone came up to you on the street and asked, "have you heard the good news of the Tao?"

 

The fact is, the misinformed will feel the need to make people aware of the truth, the informed will realize everything is already true.

 

Aaron

 

Umm - I feel that most Buddhists (here) considerately state information from their schools and experiences. And I will defend their right to do so per my beliefs and website protocol. I happen to appreciate a great deal of the Buddhist sayings and teachings which I to have quoted from time to time, and btw I feel that many Buddhist sources or schools considerately state their teachings along the lines of the ethics spoken of in the quote.

 

Om

[Aaron]

Umm - I feel that most Buddhists (here) considerately state information from their schools and experiences. And I will defend their right to do so per my beliefs and website protocol. I happen to appreciate a great deal of the Buddhist sayings and teachings which I to have quoted from time to time, and btw I feel that many Buddhist sources or schools considerately state their teachings along the lines of the ethics spoken of in the quote.

 

Om

 

So your "sincere" intent was just to post the qoute out of spontaneity, there was no purpose at all, nor nothing that directed you to?

 

My question then is, what was the purpose of your post? Or is that some hidden mystery that will manifest itself in time?

 

Aaron

Edited November 27, 2010 by Twinner

[3bob]

So your "sincere" intent was just to post the qoute out of spontaneity, there was no purpose at all, nor nothing that directed you to?

 

My question then is, what was the purpose of your post? Or is that some hidden mystery that will manifest itself in time?

 

Aaron

 

see #3

[000]

3Bob

 

I appreciate the sentiment. It is like a burst of fresh air around here. I hope it catches on.

[Aaron]

Well if you feel that the way to practice the Tao is to toss stones at people, that's fine. Everyone has their own way.

 

Aaron

[ralis]

Vajraji continues to say that the Buddha preached for 40 yrs. or so. Preaching is probably translated to a more Western bias and may have little to do with how the Buddha behaved in public. Vajraji comes off like Jerry Fallwell et al.

[strawdog65]

 

 

Honestly though, when was the last time someone came up to you on the street and asked, "have you heard the good news of the Tao?"

 

The fact is, the misinformed will feel the need to make people aware of the truth, the informed will realize everything is already true.

 

Aaron

 

 

Wow!

 

I must live in the wrong neighborhood!

 

I think that as conflicts arise, many times deaf ears,

are joined by sight restrained eyes.

 

When tossing stones into a turbulent pond,

the pattern of ripples is hard to distinguish.

 

At those times, a calmer pond is necessary.

 

Listen and hear, the splash of water!

 

A beautiful, calm , pond is what we have here.

 

Peace!

[Procurator]

[Mal]

this "dr." is a know-nothing.

 

Are we talking about the same Dr Gunapala Piyasena Malalasekera? He appears to be rather well respected.

and all I hit for chakravartin was a ruler “whose chariot wheels roll everywhere,” or “whose movements are unobstructed.”

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=XlqeS3WjSWIC&pg=PA160&lpg=PA160&dq=Chakravartin&source=bl&ots=iHZrjG-ZxH&sig=-cM7PyhNJXnpOs7EwzpzBQeOf4E&hl=en&ei=5KrxTLu2CoruuAOUwMXwDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CBgQ6AEwATgK#v=onepage&q=Chakravartin&f=false

page 160 bottom left paragraph running to the top right panel presents an interesting dichotomy of enlightened Buddha or chakravartin

[Procurator]

[Vajrahridaya]

he might be. unfortunately in this day and age "respect" does not mean much.

 

3. Why does the Kalachakra-Tantra promote the institution of a “Chakravartin” (a world emperor) who should set up a global Buddhist “Theocracy”, a buddhocracy - this in direct conflict to your continual protestations of a belief in democracy?

 

 

 

The Kalachakra-Tantra includes the buddhocratic teaching of a Chakravartin or world emperor. “The Chakravartin shall come out at the end of the age, from the city the gods fashioned on Mount Kailasa. He shall smite the barbarians in battle with his own four-division army, on the entire surface of the earth.” This statement can be found in the original text of the Kalachakra-Tantra (Shri Kalachakra I. 161). A Chakravartin is, according to the Indian tradition, a messianic priest-king who brings absolution, a “theocrat” (better “buddhocrat”) who unites religious, political, legal and military power in himself. Sharing of power by the common man and democracy are completely unknown concepts in this political theology which stems from the 10th century.

 

http://www.iivs.de/~iivs01311/EN/deba03.html

 

Well, the Dalai Lama could have been considered a Chakravartin within the world of Tibet. Back then the idea of "the world" took up a much smaller area, as the world as it actually is back then was much vaster as it took months to just travel what would take a few hours by todays standards. Also since Mount Kailash is in Tibet and the Dalai Lama did kind of do all those things throughout many lifetimes.

 

Just conjecture on my part.

 

P.S. As far as all the arguments surrounding the Kalachakra? Some Tantric literature has to be contextualized and some parts of certain texts are just plain dated. I really don't know much about the Kalachakra Tantra.

Edited November 28, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[Procurator]

[Vajrahridaya]

http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/history/chin_timeline.htm

 

.

 

the Buddhist's favour = forcible conversion of daoist monasteries into buddhist ones.

 

Yeah, that's pretty messed up. I don't think the current Dalai Lama would favor that type of stuff.

[Vajrahridaya]

[fiveelementtao]

[Vajrahridaya]

While this quote may be true in many cases, there are quite a few Siberian Shamans who would beg to differ...

http://www.tengerism.org/lamaism.html

 

Wow, that's fu*#d up. How that could be condoned by any true Buddhist is beyond me??

[rex]

I've seen a few references on the net linking the Kalachakra to militaristic conquest. Here's one explanation:

 

Holy Wars in Buddhism and Islam

 

In regard to abuses of power, history shows that when there is a conflict of interest feudal/state affairs will often take precedence over spiritual affairs. The Himalayan region is no different to Europe or the Americas in this respect.