Lower Dan Tien Attributes

[Maddie]

I want to know more about the attributes associated with the lower dan tien other than simply energy storage. For instance they say the middle dan tien relates to emotions, and the upper dan tien to perception. So what about the lower dan tien, what are its attributes emotionally, mentally, ect.... ???

[Taomeow]

I want to know more about the attributes associated with the lower dan tien other than simply energy storage. For instance they say the middle dan tien relates to emotions, and the upper dan tien to perception. So what about the lower dan tien, what are its attributes emotionally, mentally, ect.... ???

 

Great question.

 

Here's a few, in no particular order:

 

It is the field of manifestations and transformations, the alchemical "yellow court," "elixir field," "cauldron," "utensil for cooking the pill," "the field of yellow sprouts," to name a few.

 

It is the essence of one's humanity positioned in between heaven and earth, connecting both and partaking of both. It is the field of interactions between heaven and earth, macrocosmically and microcosmically. (It is not a "point" and it is not a "vortex," it is better described, or rather hinted at, by the terms used classically -- "field," "cauldron," in other words it has volume, expanse, and these are not fixed.)

 

It is the seat of miaotao, the mysterious border between yin and yang. This S-shaped mysterious border is crossed when yin transforms into yang and vice versa, but in itself it is neither, being of the nondual nature and properties, of Earlier Heaven. This is the border crossed by Earlier Heaven unmanifest potentials when they become manifest Later Heaven phenomena, and vice versa. It is isotropic, i.e. can go both ways. Things can appear and disappear in and out of manifest existence via crossing this border.

 

It is more yin than yang in the human body, and is naturally more accessible in the female than in the male. The physical organ within the space of the physical human body corresponding to the location of the lower dantien, the uterus, partakes of some of its nonphysical properties and makes them visible as the actual ability to conceive, facilitate growth, nurture, and bring forth new manifestations into the world. In the male, who has no uterus, the first years of developing the lower dantien are aimed at creating a "virtual" one that is independent of the actual physical organ (the advantage of having the actual one is that it makes the sensory comprehension of the process whereby the nonphysical field of manifestations is accessed a tad easier and faster; other than that, the rest of one's success with internal alchemy depends on the virtues of the practice and the person, not on the gender.)

 

Now this is not "classical" but I have noticed striking similarities between some of the properties of the lower dantien and those of the stem cells. Stem cells are uncommitted to being this or that, they can turn into anything, they are full of potentials for everything but without being accessed, don't manifest into anything. "The immortal fetus" of taoism is not a virtual baby -- it is the process of activating one's stem cells (normally inactive in an adult) to the extent they are active in a fetus, and then directing them consciously to manifest as new vitality infused into the system. That's what I think anyway...

[Maddie]

Great question.

 

Here's a few, in no particular order:

 

It is the field of manifestations and transformations, the alchemical "yellow court," "elixir field," "cauldron," "utensil for cooking the pill," "the field of yellow sprouts," to name a few.

 

It is the essence of one's humanity positioned in between heaven and earth, connecting both and partaking of both. It is the field of interactions between heaven and earth, macrocosmically and microcosmically. (It is not a "point" and it is not a "vortex," it is better described, or rather hinted at, by the terms used classically -- "field," "cauldron," in other words it has volume, expanse, and these are not fixed.)

 

It is the seat of miaotao, the mysterious border between yin and yang. This S-shaped mysterious border is crossed when yin transforms into yang and vice versa, but in itself it is neither, being of the nondual nature and properties, of Earlier Heaven. This is the border crossed by Earlier Heaven unmanifest potentials when they become manifest Later Heaven phenomena, and vice versa. It is isotropic, i.e. can go both ways. Things can appear and disappear in and out of manifest existence via crossing this border.

 

It is more yin than yang in the human body, and is naturally more accessible in the female than in the male. The physical organ within the space of the physical human body corresponding to the location of the lower dantien, the uterus, partakes of some of its nonphysical properties and makes them visible as the actual ability to conceive, facilitate growth, nurture, and bring forth new manifestations into the world. In the male, who has no uterus, the first years of developing the lower dantien are aimed at creating a "virtual" one that is independent of the actual physical organ (the advantage of having the actual one is that it makes the sensory comprehension of the process whereby the nonphysical field of manifestations is accessed a tad easier and faster; other than that, the rest of one's success with internal alchemy depends on the virtues of the practice and the person, not on the gender.)

 

Now this is not "classical" but I have noticed striking similarities between some of the properties of the lower dantien and those of the stem cells. Stem cells are uncommitted to being this or that, they can turn into anything, they are full of potentials for everything but without being accessed, don't manifest into anything. "The immortal fetus" of taoism is not a virtual baby -- it is the process of activating one's stem cells (normally inactive in an adult) to the extent they are active in a fetus, and then directing them consciously to manifest as new vitality infused into the system. That's what I think anyway...

 

Thanks taomeow I always enjoy your highly detailed answers :-)

[rene]

...

 

It is the essence of one's humanity positioned in between heaven and earth, connecting both and partaking of both. It is the field of interactions between heaven and earth, macrocosmically and microcosmically. (It is not a "point" and it is not a "vortex," it is better described, or rather hinted at, by the terms used classically -- "field," "cauldron," in other words it has volume, expanse, and these are not fixed.)

 

It is the seat of miaotao, the mysterious border between yin and yang. This S-shaped mysterious border is crossed when yin transforms into yang and vice versa, but in itself it is neither, being of the nondual nature and properties, of Earlier Heaven. This is the border crossed by Earlier Heaven unmanifest potentials when they become manifest Later Heaven phenomena, and vice versa. It is isotropic, i.e. can go both ways. Things can appear and disappear in and out of manifest existence via crossing this border.

 

Taomeow, hi & nicely described!

 

Your words of 'volume, expanse,' gave me a giggle as oh my yes it has volume and expanse, for where would this aspect NOT be? LOL.

 

It's a joy for me to read about these things in the lingo of your tradition.

 

warm regards

[dawei]

It may be useful to still keep the upper, middle and lower compared. So I'll do that with UDT, MDT, LDT, respectively.

 

UDT - Shen - Spirit - Mind - Spiritual - Heaven Qi (most Yang)

MDT - Qi - Energy - Breath - Emotional - Transforming Qi

LDT - Jing - Essence - Posture - Physical - Earth Qi (most Yin)

[Trunk]

Your words of 'volume, expanse,' gave me a giggle as oh my yes it has volume and expanse, for where would this aspect NOT be? LOL.

 

Of course from the absolute view, the Absolute is ever-present without edges. So of course you are right.

 

But also human beings we tend to, when pressed, tangle up in duality along the human form in certain ways... and there are 'skillful' ways to resolve that, to anchor the Absolute into the subtle human form that diminishes (reverses, even) the tendency to mistakenly produce the experience of duality.

 

That has to do with the "tan tien" or "center" or whatever you want to call it.

 

*whew!*

[rene]

Of course from the absolute view, the Absolute is ever-present without edges. So of course you are right.

 

But also human beings we tend to, when pressed, tangle up in duality along the human form in certain ways... and there are 'skillful' ways to resolve that, to anchor the Absolute into the subtle human form that diminishes (reverses, even) the tendency to mistakenly produce the experience of duality.

 

That has to do with the "tan tien" or "center" or whatever you want to call it.

 

*whew!*

 

*whew!* indeed! LOL

 

Hiya, Trunk

 

Of course you are right; I was speaking only from my perspective which is of little use to anyone else. (-:

 

warm regards

[Taomeow]

Always a pleasure to get to the bee's knees of it all -- thanks for supporting them, dwai and rene!

 

Your words of 'volume, expanse,' gave me a giggle as oh my yes it has volume and expanse, for where would this aspect NOT be? LOL.

 

Well, e.g., the human eye. At the center of the macula, a single neuron connects to the optic nerve, and all the input filters down to a single point -- the rest of what you see is interpretations by the brain, which gets its whole scope of what you are looking at moment to moment in single-point entries (but VERY fast, which creates the illusion of continuity of your seeing). This is what a "point of view" really means: it is not panoramic, it is reduced to a single "point of oneness" -- the "one" being you when you're observing from "your point of view," or me when I'm observing from mine. This narrows down a voluminous and expansive reality to something that can fit a single point -- the observer -- at a single moment -- while you're looking. This reality is never real, because an infinite number of other points of observation exist simultaneously and independently of whether this particular observer is looking, and each of them registers a different "point of view" because it actually IS -- no two observers can occupy the same point of observation, no neuron at the center of the macula feeds into two brains simultaneously. Which to me challenges the whole "we are all one, and the only real time is right now" line of thinking tremendously, because it is blatantly a "point of view" (something that reduces to oneness and immediacy by anatomical default), and reality is not. But I digress...

 

Another example of a point that is not, under normal conditions, "voluminous and expansive" is an acupoint. It sits on a particular meridian and its mobility and "expanse" are limited to a fraction of a millimeter. If you suffer an injury that cuts a meridian, the whole meridian will move to circumvent the scar and position itself elsewhere, but it will move together with its acupoints, like a necklace -- you move it, all the beads on it move together.

 

Of course the needle you stick into an accupoint is an antenna that can connect it to other parts of reality if it is positioned correctly so that it starts to "receive" or "transmit." With acupuncture, you can turn a point "voluminous" and "expand" it to reach qi where it previously couldn't (whether inside your body or outside of it). If you need to keep it in this state for a length of time, you have to leave the needle in, however (this is occasionally done with auriculoacupuncture) or, to avoid the obvious inconvenience of having a needle stuck in you, use a tiny gold pellet instead to press on the point continuously. So an acupoint is "expandable" into "real reality," but not "expansive" by itself.

 

So... saying that the lower dantien "has volume and expanse" is another way to say "it is a phenomenon of real reality, not of the point-of-view kind."

 

It may be useful to still keep the upper, middle and lower compared. So I'll do that with UDT, MDT, LDT, respectively.

 

UDT - Shen - Spirit - Mind - Spiritual - Heaven Qi (most Yang)

MDT - Qi - Energy - Breath - Emotional - Transforming Qi

LDT - Jing - Essence - Posture - Physical - Earth Qi (most Yin)

 

I agree.

[Maddie]

would being a generally low energy person be a lower dan tien issue? cause it seems like most of my existance is one of being tired :-/

[Taomeow]

would being a generally low energy person be a lower dan tien issue? cause it seems like most of my existance is one of being tired :-/

I think it's mostly a "modern world" issue. Too much stuff in the environment that exhausts our energy, not enough of what replenishes it. I'm told lower dantien practices of the kind that increase jing help with energy. It has been my experience too. But there may be more mundane (though sometimes even more hidden) causes for chronic tiredness -- in the diet, water, air, habits (e.g. sleeping and being awake at times that do not match natural circadian rhythms), and ultimately in the deficiencies, toxicities, and blockages we contract as we go, the three roots of all evil. I'd examine for those first. The lower dantien may actually tell you if you're on the right track -- what we know as "the gut feeling" -- nonverbal, non-logically obtained, immediate knowledge, resides there too.

[Fire Dragon]

would being a generally low energy person be a lower dan tien issue? cause it seems like most of my existance is one of being tired :-/

 

 

This is just a feeling and I have been reading your earlier posts. I think you need to do two things at first. Claear up your emotional issues with your wife, that is for sertain. But my other feeling is that you need to learn to breath both in and out in a relaxed way during your daily life. It is just a gut feeling like taomjau talked about so if it is completely wrong pay no atention to it!

 

You know I have been working with tieredness issues myself for the last ten years, and I practise about the same practises as you do. So I guess we have things to talk about you and I on this forum in the future. I hope there will be nice chats.

 

All the best

FD

[King Kabalabhati]

would being a generally low energy person be a lower dan tien issue? cause it seems like most of my existance is one of being tired :-/

 

I keep on bugging you with this, but please do some kind of detox with fasting and bitter herbs. Then build with rejuvenative tonics. This will save you lots of frustration later on. Emotional cleansing will follow along with the physical. Chronic tiredness means you're loaded with physical and emotional toxins.

[Maddie]

I keep on bugging you with this, but please do some kind of detox with fasting and bitter herbs. Then build with rejuvenative tonics. This will save you lots of frustration later on. Emotional cleansing will follow along with the physical. Chronic tiredness means you're loaded with physical and emotional toxins.

 

I actually have done some detoxing, and bitters, and fasting. As far as my breathing goes I will pay more attention to that and see if that is indeed an issue. A few weeks ago I took some ginseng and that helped. Once it ran out I started to feel tired again, so I went and got some more and once again it is helping.

[Maddie]

was wondering what it is that ginseng does for you or gives to you, cause it seems to be the only thing that helps me wiht fatigue?

[King Kabalabhati]

was wondering what it is that ginseng does for you or gives to you, cause it seems to be the only thing that helps me wiht fatigue?

 

It is a stimulant but also a nutritive tonic with properties similar to Ashwagandha. Very good for you as I've read from both TCM and Ayurvedic sources.

[Taomeow]

was wondering what it is that ginseng does for you or gives to you, cause it seems to be the only thing that helps me wiht fatigue?

 

In TCM there's a class of herbs and formulas known as "tonics" -- ginseng is the number one in this category. Russian scientists came up with the term "adaptogen" studying several of the herbs of this category. Meaning, it has the ability to make the person systemically stronger and more resilient to stress regardless of the nature of the stressor -- physical, chemical, or psychological. Just like "stress" which is a generic, "intangible" description of many different kinds of adverse forces acting on the whole system, ginseng counteracts it by acting on such "intangibles" as "stamina," "endurance," "vitality," "vigor," "immunity" (not limited to the immune system -- "protective qi" in TCM terms). It is "smart" and acts on what's in need of action, so, e.g., it can raise blood pressure when it's too low or lower it when it's too high -- including in the same individual.

 

It is age-sensitive and acts differently on people of different age groups -- young people may find it's a stimulant (including its aphrodisiac effects), older people may find it's a "rejuvenator" that does nothing much other than make them feel the way they did ten, twenty, thirty years earlier. The older the ginseng itself, the greater its power; the older the person who takes it, the greater the benefits; the greater its benefits, the more it costs, up to record figures (the price going up to its weight in gold for very old roots, and over that border for museum-old ones.) Aside from the price, there's very few contraindications. People who are finding that it is too stimulating and experience wired-up, oversexed, jittery, etc., states while taking it are perhaps too young to take it; other than that, it is not to be taken in elevated-metabolism situations like an illness accompanied by fever, hyperthyroid conditions, and periods of summer heat.

[Fire Dragon]

In TCM there's a class of herbs and formulas known as "tonics" -- ginseng is the number one in this category. Russian scientists came up with the term "adaptogen" studying several of the herbs of this category. Meaning, it has the ability to make the person systemically stronger and more resilient to stress regardless of the nature of the stressor -- physical, chemical, or psychological. Just like "stress" which is a generic, "intangible" description of many different kinds of adverse forces acting on the whole system, ginseng counteracts it by acting on such "intangibles" as "stamina," "endurance," "vitality," "vigor," "immunity" (not limited to the immune system -- "protective qi" in TCM terms). It is "smart" and acts on what's in need of action, so, e.g., it can raise blood pressure when it's too low or lower it when it's too high -- including in the same individual.

 

It is age-sensitive and acts differently on people of different age groups -- young people may find it's a stimulant (including its aphrodisiac effects), older people may find it's a "rejuvenator" that does nothing much other than make them feel the way they did ten, twenty, thirty years earlier. The older the ginseng itself, the greater its power; the older the person who takes it, the greater the benefits; the greater its benefits, the more it costs, up to record figures (the price going up to its weight in gold for very old roots, and over that border for museum-old ones.) Aside from the price, there's very few contraindications. People who are finding that it is too stimulating and experience wired-up, oversexed, jittery, etc., states while taking it are perhaps too young to take it; other than that, it is not to be taken in elevated-metabolism situations like an illness accompanied by fever, hyperthyroid conditions, and periods of summer heat.

 

 

Yes ginseng is considered Yang! If you already have to much yang it is bad. Or if you have to litle yin it migth be bad also.

 

FD

[Taomeow]

Yes ginseng is considered Yang! If you already have to much yang it is bad. Or if you have to litle yin it migth be bad also.

 

FD

 

Ginseng is "human root" ("gin" in its name is actually the old pre-Pinyin rendition of "ren," human) and is thought of as corresponding in its properties to a human being. As such, it has both yin and yang properties, and can enhance either depending on who takes it, when, and what for. It is VERY useful in many yin-deficient conditions, it is only bad in cases of false yang manifestations of yin deficiency (e.g. fever accompanying a chronic or acute yin-deficient disorder.) Besides, there's different varieties, different methods of preparation, and most importantly, different-age roots that act rather differently in the body. Like in humans, younger age in ginseng is associated with more yang, older age, with more yin.

[VCraigP]

was wondering what it is that ginseng does for you or gives to you, cause it seems to be the only thing that helps me wiht fatigue?

 

TaoMeow has said a lot about ginseng.

 

Despite my inclination to advise against just throwing one herb at a complex situation (there is no other kind, nothing is simple) I advise to use Eleutherococcus Senticossus, aka Eleuthero, aka Siberian Ginseng. Get it in a tincture form ideally. Dont buy standardized extract. If pill form just get pure powder with nothing else.

 

eleuthero is a great mild tonic which was one of the primary Adaptogens the Russians were doing research on since mid last century or so.

 

It does not carry the same overheat issues as Panax Ginseng. It has been scientifically proven effective for so many things.

 

Should be easy to find in any health food shop.

 

good luck.

 

Craig

[Birch]

Great! Thanks TaoMeow. I tried some Panax, turned out not to be a good idea.

 

Some days I think it's just better sticking to real food. The supplements industry is starting to annoy me (almost) as much as "big pharm" - of which I wonder how many "natural health" firms are subsidiaries - making wads of dough off of "health and improvement" junkies such as myself.

[Brian]

Panax quinquefolius grows wild around here, especially in the temperate rhodo rain forests surrounding the higher elevations. (Actually, when I was in high school, I knew people who would smoke it...)

 

Taomeow, can you tell me anything about American ginseng?

[Taomeow]

Panax quinquefolius grows wild around here, especially in the temperate rhodo rain forests surrounding the higher elevations. (Actually, when I was in high school, I knew people who would smoke it...)

 

Taomeow, can you tell me anything about American ginseng?

 

Wow, I'd go foraging if I were you! Put your name -- A Seeker -- to good use!

 

It was used traditionally (I mean American ginseng, not your name) by Native Americans as a stimulant, also for headaches, indigestion, and infertility. It was also used for fevers, and is safe to use this way unlike Asian ginseng. It was not as "special" to Native Americans as Asian ginseng has been to Asians for thousands of years, just useful. I would say today they are closer than before, since American ginseng is still possible to find in its wild (more potent) version while Asian ginseng, which has been grown as a cultivated plant for at least 4,000 years, is probably next to impossible to find in the wild anymore. The cultivated variety is of course far less potent. Still, Asian ginseng would be my choice for anything heavy duty, while American ginseng is just, um, useful.

 

When there was a very serious illness in my family, I bought "wild" ginseng from China, but I had no way of checking if the claims were true. The seller asserted he owns a forest in the mountains, forget the name of the province, and employs gatherers. But like I said, there's no way this could be verified -- and I wouldn't be paying what it cost if it wasn't for dire need. The roots did look pretty good though, and pretty old (I know how to determine their age) -- I was buying 16--20-year-old roots. I made my own tincture out of them that was used continuously for 6 months, with very good results.

[joeblast]

hehe In that vein, what do you know of Devil's Club? Its a cousin of Ginseng, there's a shitload of it all over southeast alaska.

[Taomeow]

hehe In that vein, what do you know of Devil's Club? Its a cousin of Ginseng, there's a shitload of it all over southeast alaska.

 

Devil's Club?.. for a moment I thought you were talking about the Bilderberg group...

 

...but then realized you mean what I call Zamanikha in my native tongue.

 

The tincture is part of Russian pharmacopoeia. Herbalist and shamanic uses abound. Devil's Club has many indications similar to those of ginseng and some that are different -- e.g. it is used for diabetes and schizophrenia. It is indeed a "cousin" -- like in a family, cousins can have some familial resemblance but different personalities and tempers. It's a bit more straightforward and, in an overdose, occasionally harsh compared to ginseng which is a good-natured, forgiving sage. Due to ganying phenomena a taoist might notice, this shows even in the outward appearance -- Devil's Club is thorny and difficult to handle. You need a special touch... and a pair of sturdy gloves.

[joeblast]

absolutely, that stuff buuuuurrrrrrrns!!!

 

I'll inquire elsewhere about how to harvest, at least before I head up that way next!