[TTC Study] Chapter 2 of the Tao Teh Ching

[dawei]

  On 11/30/2010 at 5:11 AM, Twinner said:

so is it about farming or running a farm or is this sage wandering around the wilderness perpetuating nature?

Since I don't see the Sage as the subject to those last lines, I don't see the 'farming' angle. As Rene suggests; the myriad things don't need man's input or direction to flourish. Things arise on their own.

[Aaron]

  On 11/30/2010 at 3:29 PM, Apech said:

Aaron,

 

You can be as harsh as you like - I won't be offended. Please express yourself freely I enjoy the debate.

 

Maybe I didn't make my point properly. I think these relative judgments are important because this is what we tend to do all the time. In the West for centuries people (poets and philosophers) have been talking about beauty, goodness and truth. This gives rise to the idea that there is perfect beauty, perfect goodness and perfect truth. If one is religious then these qualities are often assigned to God. Keats in his Ode to Grecian Urn said "Beauty is truth, truth beauty," - that is all ye know on earth, and all ye need to know." So there is a kind of elegant harmony in form which is 'true' and 'beautiful' - as if there is some essence in the thing that makes it so.

 

Lao Tzu says "Once all under Heaven knew beauty as "beauty"; at that moment "ugliness" was already there" (Richard John Lynn trans.)

 

 

What I take from this is that the idea of the perfect diamond (or anything) is an abstraction while the Tao is not an abstract. Tao follows its own nature (or some say Tao follows nature) so Tao is natural and the sage follows this by not using judgments ... or "Therefore the Sage [sheng] tends to matters without conscious effort" (same trans.).

 

If you think the world is abstract then you are starting to sound a little Buddhist. I tend to use the Taoist version - to paraphrase : man follows earth, earth follows heaven, heaven follows Tao and Tao follows its own nature [ziran]. Nothing abstract about that.

 

Hello Apech,

 

I understand what you're saying and if you read very closely you'll see I was saying the same thing. My point is that you cannot say a person's perception of reality doesn't exist, in that sense, abstraction is as real as the actual image. It all has to do with perception. Also many early Taoists saw Buddhism as a simpler form of Taoism, and perhaps this similarity in perception was one of the reasons?

 

With that said, I have a question for you, If all the world stops judging, what happens then? What do we base our understanding of reality on? Are we supposed to spontaneously act, seeing things only as they "truly" are?

 

 

Aaron

Edited November 30, 2010 by Twinner

[Aaron]

  On 11/30/2010 at 3:31 PM, dawei said:

Since I don't see the Sage as the subject to those last lines, I don't see the 'farming' angle. As Rene suggests; the myriad things don't need man's input or direction to flourish. Things arise on their own.

 

Hmm... My question wasn't so much that, but rather do you think this is meant to imply or is talking about farming, since that was the primary source of food at the time this was written? As in the Sage doesn't farm?

 

As far as whether the sage is involved or not, I'm not sure if that actually alters what's being said to that great a degree, the general message seems to be the same. It's like two people reaching the same point, but taking different roads to get there.

 

Aaron

Edited November 30, 2010 by Twinner

[rene]

  On 11/30/2010 at 1:32 PM, manitou said:

Where's the line between difficult and easy? It's relative to you or me. Where's the dividing point between high and low? Long and short? Seems like we do live in separate realities where my perception will always differ from the perception of another. ... The point is that there's no absolutes at all perceivable to us, at least on this physical level. It all interdepends. Wow. When you really get to thinking about it, Wow.

Yep, Wow.

 

Hi Manitou (-:

 

In the Chapter One thread, majc said "Ch 1 is the simplest, minimalist, compressed expression of the whole thing. The other 80 chapters aid and reinforce its unpacking." I agree, and for me Ch 2 continues that compressed expression of two things: the manner and rise of the manifest, followed by the way the 10,000 things interact naturally.

 

Some translations jump right into how dualities are supposed to be avoided.

 

Dualities. What the hell is a 'duality' anyway and why are we supposed to avoid them?

 

Is it more than just complimentary opposites like on a color-wheel, or like the on/off light switch that's rather useful? Does the word apply only to when we make 'good/bad' judgements about things? I make judgements all the time when I look in the fridge and judge the green fuzzy roast beef as bad. Very bad. Bad beef. Bad beef.

 

To me, the pairs listed in Ch 2 illustrate your idea regarding absolutes. No thing (or action) imo is inherently good or bad (including the fuzzy beef) - it's as you say, it all interdepends; it depends on perspective: Shark eats man. Good for the shark, bad for the man. Fuzzy beef kills rene; fuzzy beef feeds microbes/bacteria.

 

Hmmm...time for breakfast, lol.

 

warm regards

 

edit:typo

Edited November 30, 2010 by rene

[Apech]

  On 11/30/2010 at 4:05 PM, Twinner said:

 

With that said, I have a question for you, If all the world stops judging, what happens then? What do we base our understanding of reality on? I would say that in order for any philisophical premise to work, at least one such as yours, that it needs to work on a global level and I can't see this premise working on that level, hence it's one of the reasons I don't feel that this traditional taoist interpretation of this chapter is accurate.

 

Aaron

 

Wang Bi says:

 

  Quote

Delight and anger have the same root, and approval and disapproval come from the same gate, thus they cannot be used with bias [pian]. These six [existence or absence, difficulty or ease, long or short, instrumental sounds or voice tones, highs or lows, before or after] are all terms that express what is natural [ziran] and cannot be used with bias.

 

when commenting on this section of the TTC. He is not saying don't judge as in do not discriminate between one quality and another - in fact he is saying it all in the mix of nature if you like. He is saying don't prefer the beauty and reject the ugly because both are aspects of the non-dual Tao. You can gaze on the Grecian Urn and swoon at its beauty but next time you pass a pile of horse poo you have to accept that that also is also part of reality and I suppose has its own (from the eyes of a blow fly) beauty. Its all ziran, all Tao.

 

What would happen if the whole world stopped judging? ... I can't answer that ....

[rene]

  On 11/30/2010 at 4:09 PM, Twinner said:

Hmm... My question wasn't so much that, but rather do you think this is meant to imply or is talking about farming, since that was the primary source of food at the time this was written? As in the Sage doesn't farm?

 

As far as whether the sage is involved or not, I'm not sure if that actually alters what's being said to that great a degree, the general message seems to be the same. It's like two people reaching the same point, but taking different roads to get there.

 

Aaron

 

Please excuse the interrupton, but I really want to comment on this:

 

"As far as whether the sage is involved or not, I'm not sure if that actually alters what's being said to that great a degree,..."

 

IMO. On the surface what is said may only be altered slightly, but the underlying approach, how we interpret and understand the TTC, is radically different. Since this is an overall thing, rather than just specific to Ch 2, I'll post my thoughts on this in the General thread.

 

warm regards

[Aaron]

  On 11/30/2010 at 4:39 PM, Apech said:

Wang Bi says:

 

 

 

when commenting on this section of the TTC. He is not saying don't judge as in do not discriminate between one quality and another - in fact he is saying it all in the mix of nature if you like. He is saying don't prefer the beauty and reject the ugly because both are aspects of the non-dual Tao. You can gaze on the Grecian Urn and swoon at its beauty but next time you pass a pile of horse poo you have to accept that that also is also part of reality and I suppose has its own (from the eyes of a blow fly) beauty. Its all ziran, all Tao.

 

What would happen if the whole world stopped judging? ... I can't answer that ....

 

Hello Apech,

 

I think we're working on different wave lengths, because what you've just said sounds suspiciously like what I've been saying all along... I think you're not agreeing with the way I'm saying it, which is an excellent example of what this chapter is all about.

 

Aaron

[Aaron]

  On 11/30/2010 at 1:32 PM, manitou said:

  On 11/29/2010 at 10:11 PM, Twinner said:

I've always thought that this chapter isn't necessarily about non-judgement so much as understanding the nature of absolutes, that when one begins to apply absolutes, they deny the true nature that exists within everything. /quote]

 

It's almost a little shamanic, like separate realities. Where's the line between difficult and easy? It's relative to you or me. Where's the dividing point between high and low? Long and short? Seems like we do live in separate realities where my perception will always differ from the perception of another. If we're sitting on a couch 3 feet apart and watching, say, the Kardashian girls - they will look one way to me, but from where you're sitting they would be a little broader or narrower than what I perceive. But you will be convinced that you know what they look like, and so would I. It's almost like our separate realities are like a rubber band that's part of a larger ball of rubber bands. And we have community realities - and national 'realities'. The national separate reality of the U.S. is certainly different than the national separate reality of, say, Haiti. The point is that there's no absolutes at all perceivable to us, at least on this physical level. It all interdepends. Wow. When you really get to thinking about it, Wow.

 

I like what you've said. Wow indeed.

 

Aaron

[Apech]

  On 11/30/2010 at 4:54 PM, Twinner said:

Hello Apech,

 

I think we're working on different wave lengths, because what you've just said sounds suspiciously like what I've been saying all along... I think you're not agreeing with the way I'm saying it, which is an excellent example of what this chapter is all about.

 

Aaron

 

 

Hi Aaron,

 

I don't think our wavelengths are that far apart. Sometimes its more interesting to talk about differences than samenesses don't you think?

 

I like what you are doing on TTBs since you arrived.

 

A.

[Stigweard]

Chapter Two -- Nourishing Life

 

As soon as the collective view

Declares beauty to be beautiful,

Disgusting is also declared.

As soon as the collective view

Declares virtue to be virtuous,

Evil is also declared.

 

In the same way,

Life and death originate each other,

Difficult and easy accomplish each other,

Long and short measure each other,

Superior and inferior implicate each other,

Sound and hearing harmonize each other,

Before and after sequence each other.

 

Accordingly the sage:

Employs liberality when managing,

Observes quietude when teaching,

Allows things to rise and pass

Without snaring them with words,

Creates without taking possession,

Acts without presuming reward,

Succeeds without making claim.

 

Truly, the sage never fixate themselves,

Thus they never depart from themselves.

 

Stigweard's Daodejing 道德經

 

Original Text:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Chinese Characters:

第二章 -- 養身

 

天下皆知美之為美，

斯惡矣﹔

皆知善之為善，

斯不善矣。

 

故有無相生，

難易相成，

長短相形，

高下相傾，

音聲相和，

前後相隨。

 

是以聖人處無為之事，

行不言之教。

萬物作焉而不辭,

生而不有，

為而不恃，

功成而弗居。

 

夫唯弗居，

是以不去。

 

Chinese Pinyin:

 

Yǎng shēn

 

Tiān xià jiē zhì měi zhī wèi měi,

Sī è yǐ;

Jiē zhì shàn zhī wèi shàn,

Sī bùshàn yǐ.

 

Gù wú yǒu xiāng shēng,

Nán yì xiāng chéng,

Cháng duǎn xiāng xíng,

Gāo xià xiāng qīng,

Yīn shēng xiāng hé,

Qián hòu xiāng suí.

 

Shì yǐ shèngrén chǔ wúwèi zhī shì,

Xíng bùyán zhī jiào.

Wànwù zuò yān bù cí,

Shēng ér bù yǒu,

Wèi ér bù shì,

Gōng chéng ér fú jū.

 

Fū wéi fú jū,

Shì yǐ bù qù.

 

Ancient Seal / Bronze Characters:

 

 

 

Translator's Notes and Commentary:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Chapter Overview:

 

Chapter 2 is an elaboration of Chapter 1 in that it is framing the Sage’s view of the world. We see once again the admonishment of creating descriptions and conceptual principles; how as soon as we make a descriptive of one thing it immediately creates a comparative description of something else.

 

In lines one through four I have slightly reordered the flow of characters to produce what I believe to be the implied message. Though sī (straightaway) appears only in line two and four, I have included its inference in lines one and three in terms of “as soon as”. I have also taken “all under Heaven” to imply “the collective view”. I have done this to further emphasize the use of descriptives, which after all is what a “view of the world” consists of, as a detriment to the Taoist “Subtle View”.

 

In the second section we have paired opposites.

 

Life and death are both attributes of origination.

Difficult and easy are both attributes of accomplishment.

Long and short are both attributes of measurement.

Superior and inferior are both attributes of implication.

Sound and hearing are both attributes of music.

Before and after are both attributes of sequence.

 

The third section is how the sage operates once fixations to conceptual descriptions are liberated.

 

The final two lines are the key that ties the whole chapter in with its title of “Nourishing Life” and it also ties in with the Taoist principle of 全, quán meaning “complete” or “integral”. To the Taoist view an integral being is one who is undivided within themselves – someone who is naturally whole. And in this chapter we see the implication that when we fixate ourselves through attaching to conceptual descriptions we are damaging our integral wholeness by creating separations within our mind.

 

So the simple instruction is to let go of these descriptions to nourish one’s own integral wholeness – to nourish the wholeness of life within.

 

Line 1: 天下皆知美之為美，-- Tiān xià jiē zhì měi zhī wèi měi,

 

Tiān is once again Heaven, coupled with xià, “under”, we have the meaning of “under heaven”. Jiē is most commonly translated as “all, together”, so the composite here is the idea of “all under heaven”, meaning “everyone in the world”. Jiē also has the notion of “together speak”, perhaps like the common speech between people. So if we run with the idea that the sum of our descriptive words comprise our view of the world then we can see a notion of a “collective view”.

 

Zhì, commonly translated as “to know” or “regards”, is a composite of an arrow and an open mouth. So in a sense this is saying when we point or aim at something with our speech, so “declare” might be used.

 

Měi pictographically is a man 大 with a goat 羊 head dress and could also be a dancer with a head dress of feathers for decoration. It is fairly universally translated as “beauty, beautiful, pretty”.

 

Zhī is merely a preceding phrase as a modifier, like the word ‘it’.

 

Wèi is a picture of a hand feeding or leading an elephant, or it could be an image of a mother monkey. Admittedly somewhat ambiguous, the common translation is “to act,” however we also have “to be, to do, to make”.

 

And once again we have měi, beautiful.

 

Line 2: 斯惡矣﹔-- Sī è yǐ;

 

Sī means “then; thus; therefore, or thereupon”. There is, however, also the possibility of it meaning “straightway, directly” or even “simultaneously”.

 

È 惡 is an interesting term in that most translations of the Daodejing render it as “ugliness”, but on closer inspection we see something else. It is a composite of xīn 心 (heart, mind, soul), and yà 亞 (inferior, secondary, ugly, to press down, to weigh down). We almost have an opposite of Dé 德, virtue or “straight heartedness”. Outside of the Daodejing it is translated as evil, wicked, vice, bad, foul, to disgust, to sicken, to scorn.

 

So I can see why people have opted for “ugliness” because ugliness creates the feeling of disgust. But I want stay closer to the text, hence “that which is disgusting”.

 

Yǐ is a particle of completion, denoting the perfect tense, indicating completion of a sentence. I read it like how in English we might say, “This is the way it is, period.”

 

Line 3: 皆知善之為善，-- Jiē zhì shàn zhī wèi shàn,

 

Jiē is most commonly translated as “all, together”, so the composite here is the idea of “all under heaven”, meaning “everyone in the world”.

 

Zhì, commonly translated as “to know” or “regards”, is a composite of an arrow and an open mouth. So in a sense this is saying when we point or aim at something with our speech, so “declare” might be used.

 

Shàn gives us an interesting imagery. The character is a composite of words 言 and sheep 羊 so we can assume that they are “gentle words like sheep”. Thus we have meanings like “good, virtuous, charitable, kind”. I have chosen virtue and virtuous to suit the purpose.

 

Zhī is merely a preceding phrase as a modifier, like the word ‘it’.

 

Wèi is a picture of a hand feeding or leading an elephant, or it could be an image of a mother monkey. Admittedly somewhat ambiguous, the common translation is “to act,” however we also have “to be, to do, to make”.

 

And once again we have shàn, good, virtuous.

 

Line 4: 斯不善矣。-- Sī bùshàn yǐ.

 

Sī means “then; thus; therefore, or thereupon”. There is, however, also the possibility of it meaning “straightway, directly” or even “simultaneously”.

 

Bùshàn, with bù meaning “no or not” and shàn meaning good or virtuous, is basically saying “not good” or “not virtuous”. Thus the antonym of good and virtuous is “evil”.

 

Yǐ is a particle of completion, denoting the perfect tense, indicating completion of a sentence. I read it like how in English we might say, “This is the way it is, period.”

 

Line 5: 故有無相生，-- Gù wú yǒu xiāng shēng,

 

Gù is commonly read as “ancient, old; reason, because, cause, hence, therefore”. The idea is that something is the way it is because of precedent.

 

Wú 無 simply means an absence or negative like the terms “no, not, have no”. It can either be the image of cleared patch of forest, thus negation, or it has also been pictographically linked to shaman dancers holding tassels with my implication of that the tassels become the focus of attention and the dancer “disappears”.

 

Yǒu is pictographically a hand grasping either flesh or the moon. It is commonly translated as “to have, possession, own” but it also denotes a sense of “existence”.

 

In line five we have a return to the concepts of wú and yǒu. Being presented as paired concepts like this necessitates closer consideration. Yǒu indicating the idea of “having flesh”, thus being alive, and for wú I have seen the cleared forest as “dead” or bereft of life, thus “life” and “death” forms my dyad. It can be truly said that life originates death and that death originates life … talk to compost heap and you will know what I mean.

 

Xiāng is interestingly the image of a tree 木 and an eye 目 and there are a couple ways of reading this. In its original sense we can garner the idea of “observe, appearance, to examine, to study, to read”. But because both 木 and 目 have the same pronunciation of mù the translations of “mutually and reciprocal”.

 

Shēng is the picture of a growing plant so we have the meanings of “grow, to give birth to, to live, to bear, to beget, to produce, etc”.

 

Line 6: 難易相成，-- Nán yì xiāng chéng,

 

Nán is a little obscure without know the cultural context. Pictographically meaning a yellow bird, common translations include “difficult, arduous, hard, unable, unpleasant, troublesome.” I can only assume that the bird in question was a troublesome, unpleasant critter.

 

Yì, translated as “easy, amiable”, can be either be the image of water passing from one vessel to the other or the image of a lizard. It is interesting that this is the same Yì as in the “Book of Changes”, thus it is also the concept of “change, or exchange”.

 

Just a note of discussion here, the Yijing teaches us that difficulty only arises when we fight against the changes – perhaps this is a deeper message in this line.

 

Xiāng is interestingly the image of a tree 木 and an eye 目 and there are a couple ways of reading this. In its original sense we can garner the idea of “observe, appearance, to examine, to study, to read”. But because both 木 and 目 have the same pronunciation of mù the translations of “mutually and reciprocal”.

 

Chéng provides us with the image of a long handled instrument or weapon like a lance or halberd. With the possible insinuation of a man accomplishing or completing a task using weapons we have the translations of “complete, accomplish, succeed, perfect, etc.”

 

Line 7: 長短相形，-- Cháng duǎn xiāng xíng,

 

Cháng is the picture of someone with long hair, possibly with a walking cane. So the translations include “long, length, lasting, excel, senior, advance, etc.”

 

Duǎn is a dart, an arrow, so it is something that is short giving translations of “short, brief, deficient, lacking, owe, etc”.

 

Xiāng is interestingly the image of a tree 木 and an eye 目 and there are a couple ways of reading this. In its original sense we can garner the idea of “observe, appearance, to examine, to study, to read”. But because both 木 and 目 have the same pronunciation of mù the translations of “mutually and reciprocal”.

 

Xíng commonly means “shape, form, appearance” and it is the image of sun rays and perhaps a set of calipers. Perhaps we have the idea of shaping via comparison, description or measurement.

 

Line 8: 高下相傾，-- Gāo xià xiāng qīng,

 

Gāo is the picture of a high building or a tower so we have the meanings of “tall, high, above, lofty, superior.”

 

Xià is an indicator 一 pointing to the area below in marker 丅, thus we have “under, down, lower, below, inferior.”

 

Xiāng is interestingly the image of a tree 木 and an eye 目 and there are a couple ways of reading this. In its original sense we can garner the idea of “observe, appearance, to examine, to study, to read”. But because both 木 and 目 have the same pronunciation of mù the translations of “mutually and reciprocal”.

 

Qīng is an intriguing character with different renderings that demands some examination beyond the face value. In one case we might have the image of a person leaning or possibly falling over so we have the possible meaning of “to slant, to bend, to lean towards, fascination”, whilst we also have the image of something being up-ended or turned upside down thus “upset, topple, collapse, exhaust, pour out, to empty, to dump”. Then, as an action of a person, we have “to profile, implicate, frame”.

 

Line 9: 音聲相和，-- Yīn shēng xiāng hé,

 

Yīn , showing images of a mouth with something in it and a tongue sticking out with something on it, means “sound, voice, tone, pitch, pronunciation.” This is the issuing side of the phenomena.

 

Shēng is what the ear 耳 hears from a hand striking 殳 the chime stone with a mallet 声. So once again we have a “sound, a voice, a tone, music”, but this time from the receptive side of the phenomena.

 

Xiāng is interestingly the image of a tree 木 and an eye 目 and there are a couple ways of reading this. In its original sense we can garner the idea of “observe, appearance, to examine, to study, to read”. But because both 木 and 目 have the same pronunciation of mù the translations of “mutually and reciprocal”.

 

Hé, being the image of a mouth, means “harmony, peace, peaceful, amiable, gentle, mild, kind”.

 

Line 10: 前後相隨。-- Qián hòu xiāng suí.

 

Qián is the image of a boat 月舟 on the water 刂 going forward 止. And so we have the meanings “front, forward, before, previous”.

 

Hòu is one small 幺 step 夂 behind another step 彳. And so we have the renderings of “behind, rear, after, back”.

 

Xiāng is interestingly the image of a tree 木 and an eye 目 and there are a couple ways of reading this. In its original sense we can garner the idea of “observe, appearance, to examine, to study, to read”. But because both 木 and 目 have the same pronunciation of mù the translations of “mutually and reciprocal”.

 

Suí, with the imagery of a road and a foot, means “to follow, to trace, move with, to come after, to listen to, to submit to, to comply with, to accompany, to resemble”. Of note suí is hexagram 17 in the Yijing meaning “compliance, following”.

 

Line 11: 是以聖人處無為之事，-- Shì yǐ shèngrén chǔ wúwèi zhī shì,

 

Shì is a demonstrative pronoun with meanings of “yes, right, to be, this, that, which, correct, indeed”.

 

Yǐ is commonly read as “by means of, because of, thereby, according to”.

 

Together I am reading Shì Yǐ as “accordingly” as we see a flow of learning from the first stanza, through to the second, and now through to the third.

 

Shèngrén is normally read together with shèn meaning “holy; sacred; saint; sage” and rén meaning “man; person; people”. Thus the popular “sage” rendition is achieved.

 

Chǔ is another interesting character which pictographically reveals the sound of the tiger as it stands up and walks around. Perhaps the tiger is patrolling its territory or its den. There are two different ways to translate this, the first is to emphasize the territory and we get “place, locale, spot, office, department”, the second is to emphasize the action of the tiger and we get “dwell, abide, occupy, manage, attend.”

 

Wúwèi is a classic Taoist term. Wú is once again “no, not, absence”. Wèi is the image of a hand feeding or leading an elephant and so we have the meanings “do, handle, govern, act; be”. So what is it then to not do, not handle, not govern? Most people will translate this as non-doing, with the implication of doing nothing. I believe this is an incorrect assumption. When placed in context with the line we see wúwèi more as non-controlling, non-governing, non-contrivance.

 

Zhī is merely a preceding phrase as a modifier of shǐ, like the word ‘it’.

 

Shì is pictographically a hand possibly planting something based on orders from someone. Translations include: “affair, matter, business, manage, to serve, accident, incident, a job, occupation.”

 

Line 12: 行不言之教。-- Xíng bùyán zhī jiào.

 

Xíng is the picture of a street intersection. Common meanings include: “go, walk, move, travel, circulate, to do, to perform, to act, to travel, to carry out, conduct, behavior.”

 

Bù means “no, not; un-; negative prefix”. Yán is the picture of a mouth with a tongue coming out of it, so we have the meanings of: “words, speech; speak, say”.

 

Zhī is merely a preceding phrase as a modifier of shǐ, like the word ‘it’.

 

Jiào is pictographically a child receiving old wisdom from a teacher wielding a stick. So we have the meanings: “teach, class, a religion, an order, a directive.”

 

Line 13: 萬物作焉而不辭, -- Wànwù zuò yān bù cí,

 

Line 13 provides a challenge in that I have found several variations of the characters:

 

1. 萬物作焉而不辭,

 

2. 萬物作而弗始，

 

3. 萬物作焉而不無始,

 

  On 11/30/2010 at 3:25 PM, dawei said:

Line 13: 萬物作焉而不辭, -- Wànwù zuò yān bù cí,

 

Line 13 provides a challenge in that I have found several variations of the characters:

 

1. 萬物作焉而不辭, - WB and HSG (see also chapter 34 usage)

 

2. 萬物作而弗始， - MWD B, GD

 

3. 萬物作焉而不無始, - FY (Wang Bi's notes of Chapter 17 quote Chapter 2 as 'wei shi').

 

----

 

I thought I would add a few comments concerning the manuscript variations (assigned above).

 

The use of shi (始) seems well grounded as the oldest manuscripts (MWD, GD) have it and the FY is supposedly based on a Han Tomb Manuscript (ie: as the MWD were), simply replaced 'fu' with 'bu wei'.

 

Those that choose to use 'shi' do so based on the historical manuscript use AND that Wang Bi in his Chapter 17 notes cites the FY version which has 'shi'. Then why does WB text have 'ci'? This is a long story but those who have studied the WB notes found that when the notes don't match his text, his text most of the follows the HSG, which was the prevailing and popular manuscript of the day. SO blame the editors HSG bias(?).

 

Those that stick to using 'ci' cite Wang Bi's use in Chapter 34 as very parallel and justified:

chapter v2: 萬物作---焉而不辭

chapter 34: 萬物恃之而生而不辭

 

The main problem I see with that argument is that NONE of the older manuscripts have this Chapter 34 block of text at all.

 

There are a few other issues but the only one worth mentioning is the WB use of qing (傾) instead of ying (盈) which cannot be explained easily. One person told me that the Han ruler Liu Ying would of required that character to be removed (ie: Naming taboo). But I then asked why the other 9 occurrences of 'ying' were not also (they remain in the WB)?

 

The first three characters are the same.

 

Wànwù once again returns us to the concept of “the 10,000 things” or, as I have rendered in chapter 1, “the many separate things”.

 

Zuò is pictographically action of a person with the meanings: “make; work; rise up, compose, write; act, perform, to regard”.

 

From here the characters differ.

 

In variations 1 and 3 we have 焉, yān, which is the picture of a bird with a special or different head. How it came to mean: “here, herein, thereupon, then, how, why, when” is beyond me. It could be a final particle indicating numerous meanings.

 

Ér is a contextual contrasting term like “but”, “otherwise”, “and yet”.

 

In variations 1 and 3 we have 不, bù, meaning “no, not; un-; negative prefix”.

 

Line two has bù replaced with 弗, fú, which is not much of a drama because it also means “not”.

 

Variations 2 and 3 use 始, shǐ as the final character. Shǐ, as in Chapter 1, has commonly been translated as “origin”. However, close examination yields a more pertinent implication. Pictographically Shǐ can represent a womb and/or breasts. It can also be seen as a stick penetrating an opening or semen fertilizing a womb. The translation of origin comes from the idea that ‘we all find origin’ in the womb. In Chapter 1 I have chosen to use the term ‘inception’ due to its more natural connotations.

 

Variation 1 however uses 辭, cí, as the final character. Though cí is commonly translated as “language, words, a phrase, an expression,” pictographically it can be pictured as departing or withdrawing in a tangle of words so it can also mean: “to decline, to refuse, to leave, to part from, to depart, to bid adieu, to resign.”

 

As a final confusion, variation 3 includes 無, wèi, which is the image of a hand feeding or leading an elephant and so we have the meanings “do, handle, govern, act; be”.

 

For this line I am forced to adopt a non-literal approach and look at the overall context of both Chapter 1 and Chapter 2. I am seeing it therefore as if the 10,000 things may rise but the sage doesn’t need to try and tangle them up with words.

 

Line 14: 生而不有, -- Shēng ér bù yǒu,

 

Shēng is the picture of a growing plant so we have the meanings of “grow, to give birth to, to live, to bear, to beget, to produce, etc”.

 

Ér is a contextual contrasting term like “but”, “otherwise”, “and yet”.

 

Bù meaning “no, not; un-; negative prefix”.

 

Yǒu is pictographically a hand grasping either flesh or the moon. It is commonly translated as “to have, possession, own” but it also denotes a sense of “existence”.

 

Line 15: 為而不恃，-- Wèi ér bù shì,

 

Wèi is the image of a hand feeding or leading an elephant and so we have the meanings “do, handle, govern, act; be”.

 

Ér is a contextual contrasting term like “but”, “otherwise”, “and yet”.

 

Bù meaning “no, not; un-; negative prefix”.

 

Shì is related to the heart and is often translated as “dependence, rely upon, to presume upon”.

 

Line 16: 功成而弗居。-- Gōng chéng ér fú jū.

 

Gōng gives us the image of a strong arm denoting power and is translated as: “achievement, merit, good result, accomplishment, usefulness, effectiveness.” This is the same as in Qigong and Gongfu.

 

Chéng is the image of either a long handled instrument or a weapon like a lance. It renders the meanings of: “completed, accomplished, finished, to accomplish”

 

Ér is a contextual contrasting term like “but”, “otherwise”, “and yet”.

 

Fú, like bù, means “not”.

 

Jū gives us the image of a baby falling from mother, so it could imply an original place of birth. The meanings include: “dwell, live, reside, sit, inhabit, occupy, to be at a standstill, to remain, assert.”

 

Line 17: 夫唯弗居，-- Fū wéi fú jū,

 

Fū is the picture of a man with head emphasized or with hair held together by a hairpin. Meanings include: “man, male adult, husband, master, a sage, a wise man, a distinguished person.”

 

Wéi is commonly translated as “to say yes, to agree, to answer promptly.” It has also been translated as “only”.

 

Fú, like bù, means “not”.

 

Jū gives us the image of a baby falling from mother, so it could imply an original place of birth. The meanings include: “dwell, live, reside, sit, inhabit, occupy, to be at a standstill, to remain, assert.”

 

Line 18: 是以不去。-- Shì yǐ bù qù.

 

Shì is a demonstrative pronoun with meanings of “yes, right, to be, this, that, which, correct, indeed”.

 

Yǐ pictographically implies something that emanates from and object, like steam rises from boiling water. One thing causes another. So in this first case the first section of the line, i.e. no desire / innocence, is something that happens because of the second part.

 

Bù meaning “no, not; un-; negative prefix”.

 

Qù shows a person leaving the privacy of their home. Meanings include: “go away, leave, remove, get rid of, be apart from, depart.”

 

 

Edited December 1, 2010 by Stigweard

[rene]

Stigweard, thanks for posting your rendition of Ch2 in the thread.

 

*************

 

  On 11/30/2010 at 4:39 PM, Apech said:

Wang Bi says:

  Quote

Delight and anger have the same root, and approval and disapproval come from the same gate, thus they cannot be used with bias [pian]. These six [existence or absence, difficulty or ease, long or short, instrumental sounds or voice tones, highs or lows, before or after] are all terms that express what is natural [ziran] and cannot be used with bias.

when commenting on this section of the TTC. He is not saying don't judge as in do not discriminate between one quality and another - in fact he is saying it all in the mix of nature if you like. He is saying don't prefer the beauty and reject the ugly because both are aspects of the non-dual Tao.... Its all ziran, all Tao.

 

And all good. (-:

 

Thanks for the Wang Bi quote.

 

warm regards

 

edit:typo

Edited December 1, 2010 by rene

[manitou]

  On 11/30/2010 at 4:34 PM, rene said:

 

Dualities. What the hell is a 'duality' anyway and why are we supposed to avoid them?

 

edit:typo

[manitou]

The way I see dualities, it's everything that isn't the awareness of the Oneness. Non-dual awareness is the

I AM awareness, as far as I see it. The sage would stay in the One and realize he wasn't really separate from anything or anybody. Or not.

[3deedit]

As i explained on chapter one, in order to understand chapter 2, read first chapter 21

 

www.3deedit.be

 

2 Abstraction

 

When beauty is abstracted

Then ugliness has been implied;

When good is abstracted

Then evil has been implied.

 

So alive and dead are abstracted from nature,

Difficult and easy abstracted from progress,

Long and short abstracted from contrast,

High and low abstracted from depth,

Song and speech abstracted from melody,

After and before abstracted from sequence.

 

The sage experiences without abstraction,

And accomplishes without action;

He accepts the ebb and flow of things,

Nurtures them, but does not own them,

And lives, but does not dwell.

[Marblehead]

Hi 3deedit,

 

Yep. But that is a very difficult concept to hold to because our brain functions according to dualistic concepts.

 

I like to mention the rose when discussing the concept of daulities. The rose isn't just the flower but it is the entire plant, thorns and all. If we prick our finger on a thorn we are going to say "Bad thorn" or look at the flower and say "Beautiful flower".

 

But if we look at the rose plant in its totality we don't need dualities. We can enjoy the beauty of the flower and foliage but be aware of the danger of pricking our finger on a thorn.

[strawdog65]

Another great one!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L156XHjoDL0&feature=related

[Marblehead]

Yep to that one too.

 

Regardless of our hononable intent we cannot change the true nature of anything, not even ourself.

[manitou]

Do you think we should try?

[Marblehead]

  On 1/8/2011 at 6:08 PM, manitou said:

Do you think we should try?

 

Well, I was expecting to be called out on that one. Leave it to you, huh? Hehehe.

 

Of course we should try. Chuang Tzu spoke often of those who had mastery in this or that. We do not become masters without trying to make ourselves better.

 

And where we have weakmesses we should try to overcome these weaknesses one way or another.

 

But, to try to change our true nature is a different thing. When we pretent to be something we are not we might please other people but I will suggest that this will only cause us inner conflict. Sure, we might take pride in having 'fooled the people' but I would wonder how well we would sleep at night.

[manitou]

  On 1/8/2011 at 9:42 PM, Marblehead said:

Well, I was expecting to be called out on that one. Leave it to you, huh? Hehehe.

 

Of course we should try. Chuang Tzu spoke often of those who had mastery in this or that. We do not become masters without trying to make ourselves better.

 

And where we have weakmesses we should try to overcome these weaknesses one way or another.

 

But, to try to change our true nature is a different thing. When we pretent to be something we are not we might please other people but I will suggest that this will only cause us inner conflict. Sure, we might take pride in having 'fooled the people' but I would wonder how well we would sleep at night.

 

yes, leave it to me, lol. I'm a militant go-inner. Marbles, I've recently taken to trying to walk around with awareness of the 3 treasures. (Never too much, never be the first, love). If a person is mindful of these three things and practices them, he will end up with them. That is our treasure, those 3 things, if we are diligent. By mindfully keeping things in mind like 'never be the first' or 'never too much', it necessarily means that one would HAVE to 'go in to self' to accommodate this life path. After all, one certainly can't practice 'never be the first' if they always have to be the one on top, the one with the answers. In order to develop this Taoistic tendency, one would have to do a lot of work on ego. Therefore....going in. I don't think any of this is incompatible with a nice, balanced, healthy way of life where we're not always putting ourselves first.

Jeez, I love these discussions.

[Marblehead]

  On 1/9/2011 at 4:36 PM, manitou said:

yes, leave it to me, lol. I'm a militant go-inner. Marbles, I've recently taken to trying to walk around with awareness of the 3 treasures. (Never too much, never be the first, love). If a person is mindful of these three things and practices them, he will end up with them. That is our treasure, those 3 things, if we are diligent. By mindfully keeping things in mind like 'never be the first' or 'never too much', it necessarily means that one would HAVE to 'go in to self' to accommodate this life path. After all, one certainly can't practice 'never be the first' if they always have to be the one on top, the one with the answers. In order to develop this Taoistic tendency, one would have to do a lot of work on ego. Therefore....going in. I don't think any of this is incompatible with a nice, balanced, healthy way of life where we're not always putting ourselves first.

Jeez, I love these discussions.[/color]

 

Yeah. Me too, obviously.

 

Yes, it is a challenge sometimes applying Taoist concepts in today's rapidly changing reality.

 

As to the three treasures, you know, sometimes a person must be first. If there are followers there must be a leader. In the business world, if you have a leadership position you won't last long if you do not lead efficiently. And there are other times when we must go forward on our own, without direction and without followers. If we are the only one going in that direction we will be the first.

 

Never too much: I think that can be said to be a universal recommendation. As I like to say, do what needs be done, nothing more, nothing less.

 

To love: Well, I better not talk about this. Hehehe.

[manitou]

I just think of the Tao love as mutual attraction, whether we're talking about electrical particles or human beings. Methinks you have a memory that must be imprinted to the opposite. If you ever want a little shamanic memory triangulation, just holler...

[Marblehead]

  On 1/10/2011 at 1:35 AM, manitou said:

Methinks you have a memory that must be imprinted to the opposite. If you ever want a little shamanic memory triangulation, just holler...

 

Hehehe. Yeah, I have some memories but I doubt we will ever talk about them. If I ever get a handle on compassion I think I will have done great.

 

True, I am still a work in progress. (At least I think I am progressing.)

[manitou]

I, for one, think you're really cool. You are one of the compassionate posters on this site, you are always considerate of the feelings of others. I think you have the Compassion thing down, friend.

See you on another thread...

Barb

[Marblehead]

  On 1/10/2011 at 6:28 PM, manitou said:

I, for one, think you're really cool. You are one of the compassionate posters on this site, you are always considerate of the feelings of others. I think you have the Compassion thing down, friend.

See you on another thread...

Barb

 

Thanks for the hugs. Hehehe.