[TTC Study] Chapter 2 of the Tao Teh Ching

[DrumR]

This is quick drive by Tao-ing in two aspects.

1) Chapter 2 may perhaps introduce a foundation for the later concept of "use in uselessness" and others.

2) The generalized overall concept of #2 may be likened to an introduction of the specifics of the twin versus of the the Buddhist Dhammapada.

[Marblehead]

This is quick drive by Tao-ing in two aspects.

1) Chapter 2 may perhaps introduce a foundation for the later concept of "use in uselessness" and others.

2) The generalized overall concept of #2 may be likened to an introduction of the specifics of the twin versus of the the Buddhist Dhammapada.

 

I will agree with your first point. Personally, I have been doing a really good job at eliminating dualities in my life through the use of the concept of (useful/useless to me). Anything that is useless to me has no other value judgement passed upon it.

 

To your second point, I think it is not a good idea to discuss anything Buddhist in this sub-forum because it will only cause disagreements and it will totally distract from the original idea of discussing the TTC.

[Conwaypk]

YES! My turn (finally!) [i make sure to read all posts before I chime in and that takes a couple days, making sure I understand all posts.]

 

I have always thought that everything has a purpose, that everything was created for a reason, even if that reason is for the thing to be completely useless or..well..to have no reason at all.

 

So I love to hear that others share in that "useless opinion" concept and then move on. I see that similar to the beautiful/ugly view. Though some thing may be useless to me, it may bu useful to another. Though some thing may look beautiful to me, it may look ugly to another.

 

(Follow that, this thought comes out): Is it correct to say, then, that no thing is ever beautiful or ugly, just simply exists? No thing is ever dangerous or safe, just dependent upon view and perception? That there is LESS safe or MORE safe, LESS dangerous or MORE dangerous, but never completely one or the other?

 

I am going to post the translation I am reading from because it does differ significantly in wording, though I feel the message is exactly the same. Save for the last part, where I think Karma comes in. (Not sure if Karma is a part of Taoism...I should ask that in the general forum, no?)

 

Everyone recognizes beauty

only because of ugliness

Everyone recognizes virtue

only because of sin

 

Life and death are born together

Difficult and easy

Long and short

High and low -

all these exist together

Sound and silence blend as one

Before and after arrive as one

 

The Sage acts without action

and teaches without talking

All things flourish around him

and he does not refuse any one of them

He gives but not to receive

He works but not for reward

He completes but not for results

He does nothing for himself in this passing world

so nothing he does ever passes

 

Beginning with "The Sage acts without action..."

 

I easily apply that to Karma in that, to do things because you WANT to, because it feels GOOD doing them, means that you are not lying/deceiving and therefore, without seeking reward, shall be rewarded.

 

I see in my life that the more I do good, the more Good does to me. (And as seen from Ch. 1 study I claim Christ as my God, so I would call this "Good does to me" and God's reward for me doing good BECAUSE I WANT TO, rather than flaunting it to everyone.) (And for a further thought, the Bible says to close the door and pray behind it, to not flaunt your prayers out in public. This is a perfect example of how Tao and Christianity are compatible in my life: I work, but because I want to, not to show others.)

 

I don't mind labeling openly one thing as ugly. I know and understand that it is only from my point of view. I do not think it is wrong of me to go about labeling things as "ugly" or "cool" or "good." If find allowing all of these thoughts to come to me to relax my mind, to let peace flow through my head, to know that I have my point of view but it is no way ABSOLUTE.

 

I believe dualities exist, we must not avoid thinking about them,, but welcome them in knowing that we are all different and should accept our differences and flourish from them.

 

I was thinking ealrier today: what's the point of understanding the essence of a thing? So what? So I see the rose as a rose, why does it matter whether I see/understand the ESSENCE of the rose or not? I understand that the essence of the rose, the thing that made the rose is Tao (the will of God..again Ch. 1 study). Understanding the essence is not the only path to enlightenment. (Which, by the way, is a path to be walked, not a goal to be achieved).

[Marblehead]

Hi Conway,

 

Really nice post and addition to the discussion.

 

No, we Philosophical Taoists don't talk about 'karma' but we do talk about 'cause and effect'. Hehehe. Actually, they are the same thing, only different words and understandings.

 

I enjoyed reading what you said about "doing things because you WANT to". My thoughts, while reading this, were, "Okay, you are on the right path. The next level is doing things (or not doing things) because there is no other option available."

 

This may sound strange at first because it suggests that we have no free will but this is not the case, IMO. (Trying to explain this is difficult for me because I have not attained the state yet myself.)

 

What I am trying to say is that the Sage fully understands the processes of life and death, creation and destruction, etc. Therefore s/he responds instinctually (inspirationally) to events in their life. Thought as to 'what to do' never enters their mind - they just do what needs be done, that is all, nothing more, nothing less.

 

Have a great day!

[Conwaypk]

Hi Conway,

 

Really nice post and addition to the discussion.

 

No, we Philosophical Taoists don't talk about 'karma' but we do talk about 'cause and effect'. Hehehe. Actually, they are the same thing, only different words and understandings.

 

I enjoyed reading what you said about "doing things because you WANT to". My thoughts, while reading this, were, "Okay, you are on the right path. The next level is doing things (or not doing things) because there is no other option available."

 

This may sound strange at first because it suggests that we have no free will but this is not the case, IMO. (Trying to explain this is difficult for me because I have not attained the state yet myself.)

 

What I am trying to say is that the Sage fully understands the processes of life and death, creation and destruction, etc. Therefore s/he responds instinctually (inspirationally) to events in their life. Thought as to 'what to do' never enters their mind - they just do what needs be done, that is all, nothing more, nothing less.

 

Have a great day!

 

Thank you very much marblehead, I appreciate the kind thoughts. I really do.

 

You were right haha, when I read the part about doing things because there is no other option, I said, "huh?".

 

I can see what you mean when you say that this does not mean we don't have free will. Could this be called "determinism"?

 

I had a very interesting discussion with some Baptist Bible students a couple weeks ago. We were discussing free will and fate, as written in the various books of the Bible. We (honestly I) came to conclusion of the discussion that (and remember this is the Christian God in me): We have free will, yes, the ability to choose one thing over another, but that, because God is all-knowing, God KNOWS what free choice I am going to make before I make it. I may change my choice, and God would know before hand how many times I am going to change it before I actually make up my mind. I know this sounds contradictory but it is not! There are VERY similiar, and these lines are extraordinarily thin, but it makes sense.

 

 

Where a thing/event/our action is GOING to happen and God knows it will happen, even though we CHOOSE to do this or that.

 

Where does this all lead? Well, is this perhaps that level you were saying you couldn't reach? Where omniscience of God and free will of Humans does exist at the same time, and that these 2 concepts are not contradictory of one another?

 

[Now, this is completely different but I want to ask you specifically marblehead (but I hope others answer too!)]: do you believe this statement? "We may choose between doing this or that, but be careful, because we cannot choose the consequences."

 

I'm not sure if that belief is incompatible with the one above. I'm not sure if Choose This, but Not the Consequence is incompatible with Free Will/Omniscience.]

 

{I seriously need the general forums}

 

Edit: Thinking about it a little I would have to say these beliefs are completely compatible. The consequences are the results of our actions which are freely chosen and at the same time known before hand by God.

 

Okay...agree/disagree/don't care/irrelevant to this discussion and I lose browny points...

Edited March 13, 2011 by Conwaypk

[dawei]

I am not sure if chapter 2 of the DDJ is the place to discuss christianity's compatibility to the ideas about Dao. You could start a thread in either the general forum or this subforum.

 

I think the ideas of omniscience and free will are irrelevant to the ideas about dao. Consequence can be chosen to a degree but there is too much of a ripple effect to actually try and say you can capture all the consequences. So what's the point. There are pieces which seem compatible but there are fundamental differences too.

[Conwaypk]

I am not sure if chapter 2 of the DDJ is the place to discuss christianity's compatibility to the ideas about Dao. You could start a thread in either the general forum or this subforum.

 

I think the ideas of omniscience and free will are irrelevant to the ideas about dao. Consequence can be chosen to a degree but there is too much of a ripple effect to actually try and say you can capture all the consequences. So what's the point. There are pieces which seem compatible but there are fundamental differences too.

 

I see. Then...I change my last post to this, officially:

 

Thank you very much marblehead, I appreciate the kind thoughts. I really do.

 

You were right haha, when I read the part about doing things because there is no other option, I said, "huh?".

 

I can see what you mean when you say that this does not mean we don't have free will. Could this be called "determinism"?

[Marblehead]

I started a new thread titled "Compatibility". (But put it in the wrong forum. I meant it to be in the "Taoist Discussion" forum.)

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 2 Relativity

1. 天下皆知美之為美，

2. 斯惡已；

3. 皆知善之為善，

4. 斯不善已。

5. 故，

6. 有無相生，

7. 難易相成，

8. 長短相形，

9. 高下相盈，

10.音聲相和，

11.前後相隨。

12.恒也。

13.是以聖人處無為之事，

14.行不言之教。

15.萬物作焉而不辭。

16.生而不有，

17.為而不恃，

18.功成而弗居。

19.夫唯弗居，

20.是以不去。

 

In Terse English

1. Everyone, on earth, knows beauty as beauty,

2. Then, saw ugliness.

3. Everyone knows kindness as kindness,

4. Then, saw evil.

5. Therefore,

6. Solid and space coexisted;

7. Difficulty and easiness mutually succeeded;

8. Long and short mutually formed;

9. High and low mutually encompassed;

10.Melodies and songs mutually harmonized;

11.Front and back mutually trailed;

12.Always the same.

13.Sage handles matters in a natural manner.

14.Gives silent instructions.

15.Let things be with no interference;

16.Grow without possession.

17.Sustain without domination.

18.Success without dwelling.

19.Because of not dwelling alone,

20.Merits do not vanish.

Edited August 5, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Here again I think we find a chapter that has had lines added to it.

 

Lines 1 - 12 speak to the concept of dualities. Dualities exist in the mind of man. We judge things. Some we judge beautiful and good and other we judge ugly and bad. Just the way the mind of man is. It is very difficult, if not impossible to be nonjudgemental.

 

I think these first 12 lines are just stating the facts.

 

Lines 13 through 20 speak to some attributes of the Sage. There is no attempt to link the first 12 lines with the last 8.

 

But anyhow, yes, this translation is consistent with my understanding of the concepts being presented.

[Aaron]

I came across my old translations, so I thought I might share the less strange ones... here's chapter 2.

 

When everyone under heaven knows beautiful only as they see beautiful, that is an ugly end.

When everyone believes their actions alone are good, then that is a bad end.

Everything we have will be gone,

it is only what we share that will live and grow.

When we work together,

we can transform the most difficult times into a blessing.

 

Long and short give each other measure.

What is above and below gives each other space.

A single note can harmonize with many,

so that each is in harmony with the other,

whether one comes before or after,

they will always follow each other.

 

When a wise man does what is right,

he will leave the place he resides

and nothing he will do will be done,

yet no work he attends to will be unfinished,

and all will know his work by his accomplishments.

 

All living things come into being

but are not willing to begin alone,

they act, yet they will not trust those actions alone,

they accomplish much, yet they will not accomplish it alone.

Edited July 21, 2011 by Twinner

[Marblehead]

Nice although I might question the first and last sections.

[Aaron]

Nice although I might question the first and last sections.

 

 

I know... I've always had questions about that first and last section too. I chose not to revise them because again, when I translated it, it seemed like it was the correct translation, even if it was a bit different from what other people had translated.

 

Aaron

[Marblehead]

I know... I've always had questions about that first and last section too. I chose not to revise them because again, when I translated it, it seemed like it was the correct translation, even if it was a bit different from what other people had translated.

 

Aaron

 

Well, at least you can say that it was your personal experience when translating the chapter.

 

I think it goes without saying that we experience the exact same thing differently on different days because of our mood and many other countless factors.

[3deedit]

Hi 3deedit,

 

Yep. But that is a very difficult concept to hold to because our brain functions according to dualistic concepts.

 

I like to mention the rose when discussing the concept of daulities. The rose isn't just the flower but it is the entire plant, thorns and all. If we prick our finger on a thorn we are going to say "Bad thorn" or look at the flower and say "Beautiful flower".

 

But if we look at the rose plant in its totality we don't need dualities. We can enjoy the beauty of the flower and foliage but be aware of the danger of pricking our finger on a thorn.

my in the name of the One: would nature creates such a beauty:it is supposed to enjoy outdoors not in a vase!! if you put it indoors chances you ptick your fingers...;-)

[Marblehead]

my in the name of the One: would nature creates such a beauty:it is supposed to enjoy outdoors not in a vase!! if you put it indoors chances you ptick your fingers...;-)

 

I don't bring mine indoors. They stay on the plant until they have withered. But I do still need to trim it back occasionally and yes, I do sometimes prick my finger. But I blame myself for being careless, not the plant for having thorns.

[dust]

天下皆知美之為美亞已 All know beauty for beauty because ugliness is,

皆知善斯不善矣 Know good by what is not good.

有無之相生也 Existence and absence give birth to each other,

難易之相成也 Difficult and easy complete each other,

長短之相刑也 Long and short determine each other,

高下之相盈也 High and low surpass each other,

音聲之相和也 Voice and sound harmonize each other,

先後之相隨恆也 Front and back follow each other;

是以聖人居無為之事 The wise man goes about doing nothing,

行不言之教 Teaches without talking;

萬物昔而弗始 Life is, with no beginning,

為而弗侍也 Does, without serving,

成功而弗居也 Succeeds, and does not linger;

夫唯弗居是以弗去 A man who does not linger does not leave

[Marblehead]

Nice translation. Interesting that, for me, this chapter states that dualities exist but then the second half is almost telling us that we can avoid the dualities of life.

[dust]

Nice translation. Interesting that, for me, this chapter states that dualities exist but then the second half is almost telling us that we can avoid the dualities of life.

 

Yeah. Or, rather than avoiding either, we appreciate the long and the short of life, and that they cannot exist separately. When we are able to fully appreciate that, we're free.

 

"A man who does not linger does not leave" is not quite how people usually translate it, I suppose for me, a lot of these things come down to the idea of death...

[Marblehead]

Yeah. Or, rather than avoiding either, we appreciate the long and the short of life, and that they cannot exist separately. When we are able to fully appreciate that, we're free.

Yeah, I knew that "avoid" wasn't the proper word to use but that's all that came to my mind at the time.

 

"A man who does not linger does not leave" is not quite how people usually translate it, I suppose for me, a lot of these things come down to the idea of death...

Basically speaking to the concept of "clinging" here. Yes, and even perhaps the concept of "attachments". And I can easily see how you have linked the line with the concept of death.

[dust]

Basically speaking to the concept of "clinging" here.

Cling might be better than linger. Hmm...

[Taoist Texts]

天下皆知美之為美亞已 All know beauty for beauty because ugliness is,

皆知善斯不善矣 Know good by what is not good.

有無之相生也 Existence and absence give birth to each other,

難易之相成也 Difficult and easy complete each other,

長短之相刑也 Long and short determine each other,

高下之相盈也 High and low surpass each other,

音聲之相和也 Voice and sound harmonize each other,

先後之相隨恆也 Front and back follow each other;

是以聖人居無為之事 The wise man goes about doing nothing,

行不言之教 Teaches without talking;

 

子曰：「予欲無言。」子貢曰：「子如不言，則小子何述焉？」子曰：「天何言哉？四時行焉，百物生焉，天何言哉？」

Yang Huo:

The Master said, "I would prefer not speaking." Zi Gong said, "If you, Master, do not speak, what shall we, your disciples, have to record?" The Master said, "Does Heaven speak? The four seasons pursue their courses, and all things are continually being produced, but does Heaven say anything?" (Legg)

[dust]

子曰：「予欲無言。」子貢曰：「子如不言，則小子何述焉？」子曰：「天何言哉？四時行焉，百物生焉，天何言哉？」

Yang Huo:

The Master said, "I would prefer not speaking." Zi Gong said, "If you, Master, do not speak, what shall we, your disciples, have to record?" The Master said, "Does Heaven speak? The four seasons pursue their courses, and all things are continually being produced, but does Heaven say anything?" (Legg)

So...is that an agreement?

[Taoist Texts]

So...is that an agreement?

Yes it is. also an example as how most of what is cryptic in TTC is made clear by Confucius.

[dawei]

Cling might be better than linger. Hmm...

 

Or 'rest'... but it is not obvious to mean, 'does not rest in the success'.

 

I think the underlying meaning is that he 'succeeds' without think of that as meaning anything in particularly which requires him to take credit or be recognized as having accomplished it. No awards please

 

It is similar to the previous several lines.