[TTC Study] Chapter 2 of the Tao Teh Ching

[dust]

Hehehe. Great Buddhist attitudes going on here.

And here I thought I was just a stubborn fool

[ChiDragon]

 

• I'd suggest that we're discussing, not arguing.
• It's not a waste of time if one enjoys it...
• There are a few versions, many translations, and many differences between them all. If everyone summed up each chapter in the same offhand way rather than taking time to translate...would that be preferable?
• If you think it's a waste of time, you don't have to be here!

 

It was not arguing but just a different level and approach to the understanding. Somebody may already knew the whole story and it may be just a beginning to look into the TTC for someone else. We had a big discussion, here in the forum, about the different versions. Perhaps one may go back to see some of the pages to review it.

Edited September 1, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Yeah, I remember all those goings-ons. It is my opinion that if it isn't Henricks' it's wrong. (No, I'm really not that hard-headed.)

[dust]

Scan of MWD 甲道經

 

http://www.alice-dsl.net/wulfdieterich/mawangdui/blatt1mwd.jpg

 

So... I was reading this and it struck me that the last line does not contain the first 弗 -- something I hadn't noticed browsing the transcription on ctext.

 

Is the general consensus at a point like this that someone simply wrote it down wrong? Missing a character every now and then?

[dawei]

Scan of MWD 甲道經

 

http://www.alice-dsl.net/wulfdieterich/mawangdui/blatt1mwd.jpg

 

So... I was reading this and it struck me that the last line does not contain the first 弗 -- something I hadn't noticed browsing the transcription on ctext.

 

Is the general consensus at a point like this that someone simply wrote it down wrong? Missing a character every now and then?

 

Use this link:

http://terebess.hu/english/tao/_index.html

 

At the top, you can go in and out of the major texts.

 

To answer your question:

Every other version, including the oldest Guodian, has the first 弗... so it seems likely a typo.

 

Also see here to confirm the Guodian has it:

http://www.daoisopen.com/A9toA10Chapters232.html

[dust]

Use this link:

http://terebess.hu/english/tao/_index.html

 

At the top, you can go in and out of the major texts.

 

To answer your question:

Every other version, including the oldest Guodian, has the first 弗... so it seems likely a typo.

 

Also see here to confirm the Guodian has it:

http://www.daoisopen.com/A9toA10Chapters232.html

 

Thanks for the links. As far as I can see Terebess doesn't have the scans of the original, right? I've been enjoying trying to read/decipher the original characters

 

As mentioned in the Terebess description, they were both "copied out in classical official script", and it seems rather peculiar that an apparently "official" version would have typos! but without a better explanation, I'll accept it as such.

[dawei]

Thanks for the links. As far as I can see Terebess doesn't have the scans of the original, right? I've been enjoying trying to read/decipher the original characters

 

True.

 

I provided where to see the Guodian Bamboo.

 

This is the only other place I know to view the MWD silk text:

http://www.alice-dsl.net/taijiren/index.html

 

 

added: I see that my link to the MWD Silk is the same as your

[dust]

I provided where to see the Guodian Bamboo.

 

The Guodian (what there is of it) is absolutely beautiful to look at. I can barely read a character, but it's so pretty...

[flowing hands]

 

 

 

• I'd suggest that we're discussing, not arguing.
• It's not a waste of time if one enjoys it...
• There are a few versions, many translations, and many differences between them all. If everyone summed up each chapter in the same offhand way rather than taking time to translate...would that be preferable?
• If you think it's a waste of time, you don't have to be here!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well yes its different and the meaning of the chapter can certainly get lost in a lot of rhetoric.

We do not have an original script and anyone who knows a little about how the Chinese used to carry on will realise that copies were made of many written works and altered by the copyist! I am not being off hand I am simply cutting through that which is unnecessary, seeing that my master is Lao Tzu, he did teach me what he intended and the meaning of each verse. You are right I don't have to be here, carry on with your rhetoric and loose yourselves; once you are lost you may find your way back. The Dao is like that.

Edited September 2, 2014 by flowing hands

[Harmonious Emptiness]

What's funny about this chapter, is that we do this all the time on ttb - someone starts to fight, to be competitive, and then everyone wants to be right, to be first. It's contagious. This chapter speaks to exactly that.

 

I'm only calling out myself on that, btw.

[dust]

Some changes, based on the GD:

 

 

天下皆知美之為美也 惡已 All know beauty for beauty because ugliness is,

皆知善此斯不善已 Know good by what is not good.

有亡之相生也 Life and death give birth to each other,*

難易之相成也 Difficult and easy complete each other,

長短之相形也 Long and short determine each other,

高下之相呈也 High and low surpass each other,

音聲之相和也 Voice and sound harmonize each other,

先後之相隨也 Front and back follow each other;

是以聖人居亡為之事 The wise man lives in nothingness,**

行不言之教 Teaches without talking,

萬物作而弗治也 Creates without controlling,***

為而弗志也 Acts without ambition,

成而弗居 Succeeds and does not dwell;

夫唯弗居也 是以弗去也 Not to dwell means not to leave****

 

 

* 亡 in this context means the same as 无，i do realise, but when we're saying they 相生 "Life and death" seems much more poetic

 

** "lives in nothingness" -- thoughts?

 

*** like God?

 

****I still can't see 居 and 去, in relation to each other, as anything but to live and to leave

[Marblehead]

Nice. When I got my copy of Henricks' translation of the Guodian the first thing I did was modify his Ma-wang-tui translation with any variations of the chapters from the Guodian.

** "lives in nothingness" -- thoughts?

Yes, this is good, I think. In Taoism, nothingness implies full potential. Like if your cup is empty anything can be put into it.

 

*** like God?

No! Like Tao. Hehehe.

 

 

Good work Dusty.

[dust]

Thaaaaaank you

Maybe I can finally cross one off the list

[dawei]

Some changes, based on the GD:

 

** "lives in nothingness" -- thoughts?

*** like God?

****I still can't see 居 and 去, in relation to each other, as anything but to live and to leave

 

Remember, this is about co-existence or inseparability.

 

You might like to read up on Shen Dao which some think pre-dates Laozi but at least shares many ideas:

http://haquelebac.wordpress.com/2012/06/24/%E6%85%8E%E5%88%B0-shen-dao-text-and-translation/

 

是以聖人居亡為之事 The wise man lives in nothingness,**

 

Therefore, the sage manages affairs (事) with wuwei (亡為). [which is to say, non-managing; not possessing; not controlling]

 

The normal person does things for self-interest; the sage resides in the interest of Dao, wuwei.

 

萬物作而弗治也 Creates without controlling,***

為而弗志也 Acts without ambition,

成而弗居 Succeeds and does not dwell;

夫唯弗居也 是以弗去也 Not to dwell means not to leave****

 

The sage lets the ten thousand arise of their self-so'ing (Ziran); he is not creating but he encourages their arising by not managing nor controlling it.

 

He makes no claim over his manner of actions/deeds

The success/accomplishment [of the arising] is not what he dwells on; it is not his success to ponder, but only to dwell with Dao.

Not to dwell [on the ten thousand's achievements] is to not leave [Dao].

 

Inseparability of the Sage and Dao

 

That's my thoughts...

[dust]

Ahem... you're not supposed to have thoughts!

 

Yes, I wasn't sure that people would like "lives in nothingness", or even if I did, but at the same time there doesn't seem to be a literal and nice-sounding word or phrase to translate 无為 / 亡為 without also having to add an explanation in brackets... I like Feng's "the sage goes about doing nothing", but in English that kind of implies laziness rather than wisdom

 

Actually, today I found a different transcription of the GD with characters much closer to the originals, and have some more thoughts about your thoughts...

 

Assuming we are still talking about the sage, I do agree with your thoughts on the final few lines. However...

 

My original interpretation of the final few lines (before reading many other translations and being swayed by them) was the same as Feng's: that we're no longer talking about the sage doing stuff, but about the ten thousand things themselves. I'd like to go back to that:

 

 

萬勿作而弗怠也 Life creates without resting,

為而弗志也 Acts without ambition,

成而弗居 Succeeds and does not dwell;

夫唯弗居也 是以弗去也 Not to dwell means not to leave

 

 

勿 -- odd, but that is how it's written -- we can assume another "typo", I guess.

怠 -- the character could possibly be this, which would make as much sense, even though the meaning changes

 

Not to dwell, not to leave -- agreed, we're talking about not leaving the Dao, but also generally about the nature of reality? If one doesn't stay in a place, one cannot leave it; if the sage, as the ten thousand, does not dwell on his "achievements", there can be no loss of sense of achievement, or no non-achievement; the Dao stays nowhere, and goes nowhere..

[ion]

When all the world recognises beauty as beauty,

this in itself is ugliness.

When all the world recognises good as good, this in

itself is evil.

 

Indeed, the hidden and the manifest give birth

to each other.

Difficult and easy complement each other.

Long and short exhibit each other.

High and low set measure to each other.

Voice and sound harmonize each other.

Back and front follow each other.

 

Therefore, the Sage manages his affairs without ado,

And spreads his teaching without talking.

He denies nothing to the teeming things.

He rears them, but lays no claim to them.

He does his work, but sets no store by it.

He accomplishes his task, but does not dwell upon it.

 

And yet it is just because he does not dwell on it

That nobody can ever take it away from him.

 

-------------

 

Chapter Two (Translated by Gia-fu Feng and Jane English)

 

Under heaven all can see beauty as beauty only because there is ugliness.

All can know good as good only because there is evil.

Therefore having and not having arise together.

Difficult and easy complement each other.

Long and short contrast each other:

High and low rest upon each other;

Voice and sound harmonize each other;

Front and back follow one another.

 

Therefore the sage goes about doing nothing, teaching no-talking.

The ten thousand things rise and fall without cease,

Creating, yet not.

Working, yet not taking credit.

Work is done, then forgotten.

 

The first four lines of chapter 1 and the above half of chapter two share the same meanining and are references to the mutual arising.

 

Although Gia-fu Feng and Jane English are correct in their phrasing, I think it is an incorrect transaltion. It objectifies ugliness and evil and that is (certainly)not the point.

 

When the world knows beauty as beauty, ugliness arises

When it knows good as good, evil arises

This is like saying "the tao of beautifulness is not the Tao of the totality of subjective appearance,

The good that is seen in people is not the totality of anythings nature.

 

 

 

The unlabeled is implied by the labeled,

so the labeling of good and beautiful is the cause of evil and ugliness's origination.

 

This mutual arising of a thing is also its mutual disolution of things which is why the TTC is always trying to do away with good instead of evil.

 

There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones notices:

When this is, that is.

From the arising of this comes the arising of that.

When this isn't, that isn't.

From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that.

 

 

Good and beautiful (and a myriad of others) are not concepts that are necessary to have adopted, but maybe inevitable and so perfectly natural in occurrence but not objective in anyway, so their being creates mayhem when treated as such because, we feel so strongly about how great these things are, we will without choice or freewill automatically feel equally as strongly that their other end is as horrible as they are great.

 

It is shown in chapter 1 that existence was created by the same faculty as what is expanded on in the opening of chapter two and also shown that the mutual arising is also manifested by the collective agreements of humans labeling observations and opinions.

 

 

Thus being and non-being produce each other

this is a reference to the mutual arising of the formless tao, awareness, and existence. Again this leans heavily on what the first few lines of chapter 1 lean heavily on, both are references to the origination of non-existence, and the automatic comming togeather of the conditions for existence. Here is the example.

 

In the beginning there was nothing , so nothing was- so what was being was non-being, or IOW non-beings existence is seen as non-existence.

 

Also when there was this this non-existence, there became an awareness within it that was of it and only of it, therefore the non-existence being (non-being) generated its awareness of beinglessness (being) so it is as follows nonbeing=physical creates being=(non-physical) awareness

 

Also it can and does happen in reverse where the awareness actually also comes first, so the awareness realizes it it is and because it is what it is becomes physical but what it is physacly is absolute nothingness, and so being creates non-being also.

 

That is a mutual arising within the origination of existence, but the mutual arising which is refered to in chapter two originates with this aspect.

 

When the nothingness has awareness of itself this like the origination of of ugliness and evilness from the knowing of their sources (good and evil), so is this also the mutual arising and vehicle of Taos unfolding. When it knows itself as absolute nothingnesss, this seals in and defines both tao, and absolutenothingness as being confined to the characteristics it was known as but by doing so implies a whole spectrum or at at least one other form of what was defined, and so by nature of it's infinitness and thus unconfinableness it expands to the full spectrum of what was defined. Thus absolutenothingness becomes twofold and by tao's effortlessness it becomes complete.

 

So when appearence and nature are decided to have a quality of likability, and the entire collective agrees it is so, the taos virtue of absolutness brings about the actuality of the completness of what has been subjected. and because of what it renders, this weilding of tao is ugly and evil.

 

 

Difficult and easy bring about each other

Long and short reveal each other

High and low support each other

Music and voice harmonize each other

Front and back follow each other

This is saying that each group of relative concepts is basicly found within any of the groups parts, like any doirection is the same as any other direction, as in left and right are not fixed but having to do with the beholders perception. up to california is exactly down to Australia without ever changing direction but simply changing position. If you go North long enough you will go south etc

 

 

Therefore the sages:

Manage the work of detached actions

Conduct the teaching of no words

They work with myriad things but do not control

They create but do not possess

They act but do not presume

They succeed but do not dwell on success

This last part is basicly saying that anyone who knows Tao does what is listed because they understand the nature of its completing all things even what is subjectified, and also Taos seemingly lack of respecting the polar value we ascribe, but to Tao all subjective things share the same objective, or absolute value. So if you are aiming up, you could verywell by way of Tao hit down, being that the absolute values of up and down, good and bad, pretty and ugly are all the same as their other pole.

Edited September 17, 2014 by ion

[Harmonious Emptiness]

"成而弗居 Succeeds and does not dwell;

夫唯弗居也 是以弗去也 Not to dwell means not to leave"

 

I prefer

 

"accomplishments are not dwelt upon. It is because they are not dwelt (upon that they do) not depart."

 

The reason I prefer "accomplishments" is because, to me, the accomplishment is virtue. Thus,

 

"It is is because the sage does not dwell on his virtue that it does not leave him."

 

"focus on the high, and the low appears"

 

et cetera...

 

 

(and no, just because I say this doesn't mean I know it..)

[dust]

"accomplishments are not dwelt upon. It is because they are not dwelt (upon that they do) not depart."

 

The reason I prefer "accomplishments" is because, to me, the accomplishment is virtue. Thus,

 

"It is is because the sage does not dwell on his virtue that it does not leave him."

 

Yeah.This seems to be the consensus, and I see the reasoning.

 

I just trying to leave it as open/ambiguous as possible though -- at least, as far as it's been left ambiguous in the Chinese..

 

 

edit: I just trying? I'm just trying...trying...

Edited September 20, 2014 by dustybeijing

[Marblehead]

 

edit: I just trying? I'm just trying...trying...

Hehehe. And where is your "I am"?

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Yeah.This seems to be the consensus, and I see the reasoning.

 

Just curious -- where have you seen this as the consensus? Though intuitive/common sense, it doesn't seem to be common knowledge..

[dust]

Just curious -- where have you seen this as the consensus? Though intuitive/common sense, it doesn't seem to be common knowledge..

 

You mean using the specific word "accomplishment"?

 

I tend to use 3 translators for reference when I feel like clarification/support..

 

Work is done, then forgotten.

Therefore it lasts forever.

-- Feng

(this is my favourite of the 3, and though he doesn't use "accomplishment", it has the same effect)

 

Accomplishes without taking credit.

When no credit is taken, Accomplishment endures.

-- Addiss

 

He brings things to completion, but he does not dwell on his achievements.

But it is precisely because he does not dwell on them That they therefore do not leave him.

-- Henricks (Guodian)

 

 

So.. I mean that, among popular/well-known translators such as Feng and Henricks, and Wu, the standard seems to be accomplishment/success/achievement. Though perhaps it is entirely a coincidence, as looking at a couple of others randomly, they don't translate like this...

 

 

 

 

Still, I don't know that it should be "common sense" to link the last line to the "accomplishment" of the previous line.. the main problem I have with almost all translations is that they stick words in where the Chinese text lacks them, and infer meanings where they are not necessarily implied. The reader of the Chinese text is left to infer their own meanings, so the reader of the English translation should be left to it too.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Okay, I thought you were also referring to the accomplishment being/meaning virtue

[dust]

Okay, I thought you were also referring to the accomplishment being/meaning virtue

 

Ah. Sorry, yes..OK..

 

As it relates to the 10,000 things (or, as I see it, the living world), there are no accomplishments, and there is no virtue: the wise man is thus virtuous when he doesn't talk about or set store by accomplishment or virtue.

 

But I don't see the chapter as being specifically about virtue, no..

Edited September 22, 2014 by dustybeijing

[Marblehead]

Actually, IMO, lines 3 - 8 speak to the Virtue of Tao, which is, of course, different from the virtue of man in most cases. But then, lines 10 - 14 speak to how the Sage tries to emulate the Virtue of Tao.

Edited September 22, 2014 by Marblehead

[dust]

Thoughts:

 

There is a common use of 亓 or 其 in many chapters -- a pronoun referring back to the subject, e.g.

 

聖人 The wise man

之才民前也 以身後之 Stands ahead of the people by putting himself behind them,

亓才民上也 以言下之 Above them by speaking as from below;

亓才民上也 民弗厚也 Above them, yet the people feel not his presence,

亓才民前也 民弗害也 Ahead of them, yet the people come not to harm

 

where 亓 refers back to the wise man.

 

Chapter 15 also comes to mind, where 亓 refers back to the ancient nobles, and this chapter (chapter 2), also, at the beginning.

 

So, if the last few lines of chapter 2 are referring specifically to the wise man/sage, why is 亓 not used?

 

As an example

I'd think there would need to be some 亓s and other bits, added roughly as follows, for me to see it as Henricks has it:

 

是以圣人居亡为之事， Therefore the Sage abides in affairs that entail no action,
行不言之教。 And spreads the wordless teaching.
万勿作而亓弗始也， The ten thousand things arise, but he does not begin them.
亓为而弗志也， He does things for them, but he does not make them dependent.
亓成而弗居。 He brings things to completion, but he does not dwell on his achievements.
夫唯亓弗居也， But it is precisely because he does not dwell on them
是以万勿弗去也 That they therefore do not leave him

 

But 亓 is nowhere to be seen in these lines. The writer didn't write any 亓s because he was not referring back to the sage.

 

A revised translation of mine from a few days ago:

 

是以聖人居亡為之事 As the wise man lives without acting,

行不言之教 And teaches without talking,

萬勿作而弗怠也 Life flourishes without resting,

為而弗志也 Acts without ambition,

成而弗居 Succeeds and does not dwell;

夫唯弗居也 是以弗去也 Not dwelling and not leaving are the same

 

 

Just some thoughts......