Dabbling in bagua zhang

[Ya Mu]

An interesting op-ed on Chen PanLing:

Chen Pan Ling definitely was a most studied and accomplished practitioner. And utilizing engineering principles to optimize his Tai Jee also made a lot of sense (force vectors, moment arms). I would say YW Chang also was as he had practiced since age 6. Although he always referred to himself, at age 90 something, as Chen Pan Ling's senior student, he was an amazing practitioner and Teacher.

In the above remark I made it looks like I said I drove an hr to study with him. Actually it was closer to 5 hrs. I would get up at 3 AM so as to be there by 9 AM. One reason I don't have a lot of sympathy for those that can't be bothered to go to a little bit of trouble to study and learn the real thing.

[Sloppy Zhang]

In the above remark I made it looks like I said I drove an hr to study with him. Actually it was closer to 5 hrs. I would get up at 3 AM so as to be there by 9 AM. One reason I don't have a lot of sympathy for those that can't be bothered to go to a little bit of trouble to study and learn the real thing.

 

Driving is always easier when you have a car, isn't it?

[Ya Mu]

Driving is always easier when you have a car, isn't it?

Yes.

I drove my car back and forth to China, too. ??? :lol:

Edited March 23, 2011 by Ya Mu

[Sloppy Zhang]

Yes.

I drove my car back and forth to China, too. ??? :lol:

 

The point is that we get into trouble when we start making assumptions, when we presume to know someone's situation, especially over the internet, and then start making generalized statements about them.

 

"Well I drove X hrs to meet my teachers." -> Maybe another person does not have a car.

 

"Well I saved my extra money to fly to China to meet my teachers." -> Maybe another person lives, literally, paycheck to paycheck, or is unemployed.

 

"Well I made time in my schedule to fit stuff in." -> Maybe another person is busy 24/7.

 

"Obviously you don't care enough, because if you did, you'd at least try to do half the stuff I did." -> I don't think there are many people in a position to accurately gauge that for a person.

 

Question the things you don't question, that you assume to be true by default, and you find there's a lot of ways that things can vary beyond your own scope of experiences.

[Ya Mu]

The point is that we get into trouble when we start making assumptions, when we presume to know someone's situation, especially over the internet, and then start making generalized statements about them.

 

"Well I drove X hrs to meet my teachers." -> Maybe another person does not have a car.

 

"Well I saved my extra money to fly to China to meet my teachers." -> Maybe another person lives, literally, paycheck to paycheck, or is unemployed.

 

"Well I made time in my schedule to fit stuff in." -> Maybe another person is busy 24/7.

 

"Obviously you don't care enough, because if you did, you'd at least try to do half the stuff I did." -> I don't think there are many people in a position to accurately gauge that for a person.

 

Question the things you don't question, that you assume to be true by default, and you find there's a lot of ways that things can vary beyond your own scope of experiences.

Sloppy, we have heard your and others excuses over and over - we have already had this conversation and I do not plan on hashing it out again.

But if you really want to know, my first trip to China I had absolutely no money - borrowed it all on a credit card. I make no assumptions; if a person REALLY WANTS to do something they will find a way. If they don't they will ALWAYS find excuses.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Sloppy, we have heard your and others excuses over and over - we have already had this conversation and I do not plan on hashing it out again.

But if you really want to know, my first trip to China I had absolutely no money - borrowed it all on a credit card. I make no assumptions; if a person REALLY WANTS to do something they will find a way. If they don't they will ALWAYS find excuses.

 

(emphasis mine)

 

You brought it up

 

Oh, is that an excuse?

 

I really don't like the word, "excuse". All too often it is used to belittle and dismiss concerns which are, more often than not, quite legitimate. They are only "excuses" to the outsider who fails to understand someone's position. Rather than dismissing someone's position as an "excuse", it's far more constructive to talk to them in rather literal, grounded, specific terms about how to go about achieving your goals, rather than these nebulous statements like, "they will find a way."

 

Perhaps you could make a thread for "grounded in the physical reality logistics of getting money together on a tight budget and making changes in your life to allow for the pursuit and practice of legitimate practices from teachers who are outside your normal social and geographic spheres." Or something to that effect.

 

And I must reiterate the thing about assumptions- the most insidious assumptions, the ones which REALLY undermine our ability to understand one another in subjects like this, are the things we don't even examine. Having a car. Having a credit card. Having a cell phone. Having a computer (maybe people get on TTB from the public library!).

Edited March 23, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[Ya Mu]

(emphasis mine)

 

You brought it up

 

Oh, is that an excuse?

 

I really don't like the word, "excuse". All too often it is used to belittle and dismiss concerns which are, more often than not, quite legitimate. They are only "excuses" to the outsider who fails to understand someone's position. Rather than dismissing someone's position as an "excuse", it's far more constructive to talk to them in rather literal, grounded, specific terms about how to go about achieving your goals, rather than these nebulous statements like, "they will find a way."

 

Perhaps you could make a thread for "grounded in the physical reality logistics of getting money together on a tight budget and making changes in your life to allow for the pursuit and practice of legitimate practices from teachers who are outside your normal social and geographic spheres." Or something to that effect.

 

And I must reiterate the thing about assumptions- the most insidious assumptions, the ones which REALLY undermine our ability to understand one another in subjects like this, are the things we don't even examine. Having a car. Having a credit card. Having a cell phone. Having a computer (maybe people get on TTB from the public library!).

Impeccable logic and justification. I only had a debt of about 40 K when I borrowed the money to do what I felt was the most important. So again, people do what they feel they want to do and make excuses when they really don't want to do something. I could have make the excuse of "I don't have any money or the excuse of "but I will have to drop out of school" or "I don't have a credit card" and they would have been really good excuses. But instead I did what I wanted to do: got a credit card, dropped out of school, borrowed the money and went. You do what you want to do.

[Sloppy Zhang]

People see what they want to see.

[GreytoWhite]

I have found Bagua to be rich in cultivation techniques. I recently was banned from EmptyFlower. I reached a point of epiphany and was told that my information was not wanted. Haha. I would recommend taking a look at Dr. Michael Guen's stuff on there it's pretty interesting to say the least.

 

http://www.eztakes.com/ has a bunch of instructional videos you can stream freely.

[Baguakid]

[Gerard]

He Jinghan demonstrates in the following videos the true essence of the art:

 

 

 

 

Opening and closing of the joints.

Edited May 22, 2011 by Gerard

[Mal]

I signed up for Bruce Frantzis' "Bagua Mastery Program" and received my first module last week.

 

Did any TTB's manage to learn bagua from Bruce Frantzis's DVD series of know of anyone who has?

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Did any TTB's manage to learn bagua from Bruce Frantzis's DVD series of know of anyone who has?

 

No idea, but thanks for bumping this thread!

[Mal]

Bump

Did any TTB's manage to learn bagua from Bruce Frantzis's DVD series of know of anyone who has?

[Gerard]

Another cool video, Cheng Tinhua's style:

 

[Baguakid]

Another cool video, Cheng Tinhua's style:

 

 

 

Not a fan... a couple things I don't care for in this video.. Back weighted circle walking (all back weighted circle walking styles) and the palms, only the tiger mouth is open.

[Gerard]

You missed the whole point of the art. I hope one day you'll realise that it goes beyond form, and that is the way Han Yanwu expresses BGZ. I still remember you criticising He Jinghan...hmmm.

[spiraltao]

Not a fan... a couple things I don't care for in this video.. Back weighted circle walking (all back weighted circle walking styles) and the palms, only the tiger mouth is open.

 

 

 

 

Could explain more about "back weighted circle walking", is this the same as "all the weight on the supporting leg?" (rear)?

 

 

 

You mean lion's mouth, right?

 

 

We were taught that all the weight is on the rear most leg while turning the circle. I had no idea this was an issue in Baguazhang. Now I have heard of different theories on weigh distribution in Xing Yi, some go fifty fifty, some go one hundred percent on the back leg, some go seventy thirty, according to the style.

[Baguakid]

You missed the whole point of the art. I hope one day you'll realise that it goes beyond form, and that is the way Han Yanwu expresses BGZ. I still remember you criticising He Jinghan...hmmm.

 

No problem.. I like what I like. Why would, in bagua, keep the fingers together rather than apart? Maybe there's something you're missing?

[Baguakid]

Could explain more about "back weighted circle walking", is this the same as "all the weight on the supporting leg?" (rear)?

 

 

 

You mean lion's mouth, right?

 

 

We were taught that all the weight is on the rear most leg while turning the circle. I had no idea this was an issue in Baguazhang. Now I have heard of different theories on weigh distribution in Xing Yi, some go fifty fifty, some go one hundred percent on the back leg, some go seventy thirty, according to the style.

 

No, I mean Tiger's mouth.. the part of the hand between the thumb and first finger.

 

I mean sitting back and sliding the advancing foot while circle walking. I just am absolutely not a fan of this style of circle walking.

 

Maybe Gerard's right.. I just don't understand why they do that. Looks "wushu" like to me.

[Friend]

From what I see it is different interpretation of the Art.

Stances have different purpose. The backweighted is a defensive posture when you want

at the same time go into very near distance, which you cant when you are in Archer Stance, Gong Bu. The front foot can seek first incoming attacks as well attack at the same time in destroying the the contrahents posture because of walking in.

Sliding has the effect of moving forward without moving up.

 

Moving up cause with a frontal movement a change of direction and so when sliding you have the force full behind the strike. When one walks normally there is an up and down

bobbing and this is difficult to stop, which is an art itself.

Some people can do this with Tai Chi which I do not understand how to archive this. but I have the idea is to find a big wooden plank and put it on something so it touch the hairs and one walk, or using a threat . Same idea would be to plant in sticks on put things on. When one has the the same height one has actually stance training while moving exercise.

 

Because the weight is back then sliding is a good choice while other arts are jump into the enemy or doing a falling step or using force from the ground by lifting or use combination in a thrust.

 

Tiger mouth lion mouth whatever the hand is to open the hegu and allow to breath

through the hands. You can yourself test it and find that the upper torso chest

will restrict when you press the thumb against and close the mouth when the other fingers are also closed.

 

An open hand draws energy is good for exercise on nourishing for fight application

closing fingers also draw energy to the palm and sink energy into the lower torso.

Using a combination of open and closed finger is quite interesting but I think difficult for exercising since depending how one mix the breathing changes with palms posture as well the tension in the body. Good for Santi with closed finger and open mouth bad when you use it for a heaven palm as it restrict breath.

 

I think the heaven palm is more important for developing a powerful a palm by opening the inside of the forearms and the palm itself.

 

but well there are different styles because of different opinion and emphazing- and one choose those one like.

 

Best,

Q

[spiraltao]

Typically The Yin Fu style uses closed fingers(Ox Tongue Palm), from what I understand it is due to more emphasis on striking. Where the Cheng style uses the Dragon's Claw to keep the fingers open for grabbing.

 

 

I My bad thought you were talking about Master Han's Lion animal posture.

 

 

 

I had no idea about closing the tiger's mouth would result in sinking the energy to the lower torso. Interesting.

Edited May 27, 2012 by jaysahnztao

[Baguakid]

Peace

Edited May 28, 2012 by Baguakid

[Baguakid]

Peace

Edited May 28, 2012 by Baguakid

[Friend]

Typically The Yin Fu style uses closed fingers(Ox Tongue Palm), from what I understand it is due to more emphasis on striking.

 

Ox Tongue palm is something different.

It is about having the palm closed and tip of the thumb touch the base of the middlefinger. This hand is about to expand energy from the Lower Dantien.

(Closing the hand into a fist will make energy suck into the Lower Dantien.

As someone told me that this fist is Yang and protect against Yin Enviroment, but

thats and other story)

 

 

To have easier talk here the 8 basic palmposition.

 

For Ox Tongue Palm there are some position which initial would not work well.

7,4,8 are good for use in any height while the other 5 are the less the height the easier but working internal with kung fu one can overcome this obstacle.