Dabbling in bagua zhang

[sean]

I signed up for Bruce Frantzis' "Bagua Mastery Program" and received my first module last week.

 

Pretty high quality production. I have absolutely zero experience with bagua or TCMA in general so I can't compare it to anything intelligently, but I'm liking the presentation and more importantly I think I may be getting hooked on bagua in general.

 

I've found some really nice videos on Youtube that have blown me away:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqiQozw27a0

 

Currently I am starting with baby steps, almost literally, Bruce is having me practice just straight line "mud walking", very slowly. I'm having fun playing with the weight distribution while walking like this. Learning how to walk, I love it.

 

And since I have incredible ADHD and like to overdo everything I get into, so I also signed up for GaoBagua home study program. Very timely, the 5th group literally just began on Sunday. If you didn't have the cash to shell out for big BKF's program, but wanted to get into Bagua and don't have a good teacher nearby, check it out. You might still be able to slip into the 5th group. It's only $15 a month, appears very structured, and you get to upload videos of yourself every week or so and get feedback from the teacher.

 

If you're interested, join EmptyFlower.net forums and pm yusen about the "5th cohort bagua training".

 

Any other members into Bagua here?

 

Best,

Sean

[Birch]

No, but I have a book on it that I have to give to someone

 

Caveat being that the someone in question MUST be of the Wood element bazi-constitution or lacking water in same (it's a 5E experiment )

[zerostao]

i understand about being hooked on baguazhang. it is humbling and uplifting at the same time.

as fascinated i am with taji quan and xingyi quan and i see great advantages to either of those systems , i can never get around to practicing much of them because i find myself always playing with the bagua...

@kate , just out of curiosity which book?

[Brian]

No, but I have a book on it that I have to give to someone

 

Caveat being that the someone in question MUST be of the Wood element bazi-constitution or lacking water in same (it's a 5E experiment )

 

I'm a wood dragon, you know...

[Birch]

I'm a wood dragon, you know...

 

If you're sure then PM me your address and I will send :-)

[VCraigP]

I signed up for Bruce Frantzis' "Bagua Mastery Program" and received my first module last week.

 

Pretty high quality production. I have absolutely zero experience with bagua or TCMA in general so I can't compare it to anything intelligently, but I'm liking the presentation and more importantly I think I may be getting hooked on bagua in general.

 

I've found some really nice videos on Youtube that have blown me away:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqiQozw27a0

 

Currently I am starting with baby steps, almost literally, Bruce is having me practice just straight line "mud walking", very slowly. I'm having fun playing with the weight distribution while walking like this. Learning how to walk, I love it.

 

And since I have incredible ADHD and like to overdo everything I get into, so I also signed up for GaoBagua home study program. Very timely, the 5th group literally just began on Sunday. If you didn't have the cash to shell out for big BKF's program, but wanted to get into Bagua and don't have a good teacher nearby, check it out. You might still be able to slip into the 5th group. It's only $15 a month, appears very structured, and you get to upload videos of yourself every week or so and get feedback from the teacher.

 

If you're interested, join EmptyFlower.net forums and pm yusen about the "5th cohort bagua training".

 

Any other members into Bagua here?

 

Best,

Sean

 

Love Bagua. Used to have a teacher in the Bay Area who taught me basic IMA principles and Basic Bagua and Hsing I.

 

Circle walking is fantastic and a really great qigong in and of itself. Bagua taught me to move and hold structure under pressure. I am really just a beginner, but the basics sunk in pretty deep. I adopted a lot of what my upper body learned into other more external martial arts I was doing at the time (TKD) and made me more effective at that.

 

now that I have done "big dipper walking" with my Taoist teacher I think I "know" that Bagua, especially circle walking came from Taoist practices. Like Winn says, Qi likes to move in spirals. Bagua is all about that.

 

have fund and lets us know more about the BKF Bagua mastery program.

 

Craig

[minkus]

Enjoy Baguazhang Sean !

 

here check this

 

 

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UICtj-6HEFg

[San Ti]

My favorite as well, but my current home has no teachers, so not currently practicing ba gua. Here's vid of my Grand Sifu fooling around for the camera.

 

 

Good luck with the training Sean. Go slowly and enjoy it.

[Todd]

If you're sure then PM me your address and I will send :-)

 

What one is in terms of year and one's bazi constitution are different. I'm no expert in this stuff, but as far as I know the bazi constitution is determined by the day one is born. I happen to be wood, and I also have no water in my basic bazi, though I actually have a lot of water if you look at the hidden stems.

 

It might be hard to send me the book though.

[minkus]

My favorite as well, but my current home has no teachers, so not currently practicing ba gua. Here's vid of my Grand Sifu fooling around for the camera.

 

 

Good luck with the training Sean. Go slowly and enjoy it.

 

Ow nice, is that your grand sifu ? I stumbled upon a short documentary about him a while ago Very nice !

 

 

[San Ti]

Ow nice, is that your grand sifu ? I stumbled upon a short documentary about him a while ago Very nice !

 

 

 

Thanks for posting those, found them a few years ago. Never really knew much about him because my Sifu always said that it was more important to practice than to get caught up in history/stories/lineage debates. After the filming of the clip I posted, my Sifu told him that he was lazy with that performance!

[zerostao]

Love Bagua. Used to have a teacher in the Bay Area who taught me basic IMA principles and Basic Bagua and Hsing I.

 

Circle walking is fantastic and a really great qigong in and of itself. Bagua taught me to move and hold structure under pressure. I am really just a beginner, but the basics sunk in pretty deep. I adopted a lot of what my upper body learned into other more external martial arts I was doing at the time (TKD) and made me more effective at that.

 

now that I have done "big dipper walking" with my Taoist teacher I think I "know" that Bagua, especially circle walking came from Taoist practices. Like Winn says, Qi likes to move in spirals. Bagua is all about that.

 

have fund and lets us know more about the BKF Bagua mastery program.

 

Craig

big dipper or pole star stepping is great stuff. i agree it came from taoists and may be more ancient than we can ever know. i have heard dong haichuan was one of 3 students from the same teacher. i have heard that li yuen while wandering thru the mountains looking for herbs while he was still a young man of 120 (which would be before dong haichuan was even born)was taught baguazhang by 2 very old guys. anyways it is great this beautiful and complete and deep! art is becoming more and more accessable.

[JessOBrien]

Sean.

 

Glad to hear you are on the Ba Gua path. Although it's often complicated, it really just boils down to the circle walking. I like Kumar's method because he really puts a lot of work and detail into the each aspect of the stepping. It really helped me to get my mind into my feet and help connect upper and lower body. Everyone knows that Ba Gua is based on stepping, but it's hard to find specific instructions for how to make that come to life, and Kumar's way of teaching provides a lot of how-to details.

 

I think learning from him in person is the best way to go, but if you can only do it at a distance, then you can learn a lot from the Bagua Program that he put out. The lessons are good and the practice sessions are solid.

 

After training in his school for quite a while now, my advice is to train step by step, but don't hold yourself back. Too many of my classmates miss opportunities because they say "Im not ready for Double Palm" or "I'm not advanced enough for rou shou" or whatever. Take everything you can get, by hook or by crook. Beg borrow or steal. Work on the foundation, but if something more advanced comes along get it and keep it and later it will come in handy. His system is a big cycle, it doesn't matter where you jump in on the cycle because it will always go full circle and come back to where you began.

 

Good luck!

 

Sincerely,

 

Jess O

[sean]

Thanks for all the encouragement and cool links!

 

Check it out, just stumbled across this passage, via Bagua and Tai Chi, by Bruce Frantzis:

 

Taoist Meditation Arts of the I Ching

 

Thousands of years ago the art of bagua was developed by Taoist monks as a form of moving meditation based on the principles of the I Ching (Book of Changes). Some of its principles include the interplay of change between yin and yang, and the transcendence of yin and yang that leads to what is eternal, permanent and unchanging. It is known by such names as the Tao, primordial space, emptiness, and the universal link that connects all and everything.

 

...

 

Bagua and tai chi broaden the possibilities of movement arts beyond their martial and health traditions into the realms of meditation. Practice will help you:

• Accept and flow with change
  
• Understand the spiritual quality of emptiness
  
• Become one with the ever-changing universe, your own unchanging consciousness and ultimately with universal consciousness, or the Tao.

 

Similar pathways can also be pursued through tai chi, although tai chi forms were not originally developed specifically for purposes of Taoist meditation. It was adapted for this purpose in the twentieth century as tai chi grew in popularity. With a focus on the interplay of yin and yang, tai chi forms can be well suited as vessels for embodying the principles of the I Ching.

 

That last part (bold emphasis is mine) struck me as interesting. Curious if anyone has thoughts on this.

 

Sean

[Sloppy Zhang]

That last part (bold emphasis is mine) struck me as interesting. Curious if anyone has thoughts on this.

 

Sean

 

 

Even

Frantzis has been trying to get bagua into peoples' consciousness. Looking at the history of teachers he's studied with, he's had some great tai chi and xingyi teachers, but teaching in the west, tai chi was already really well known and popular. Xingyi was probably a lot less popular, but a lot more straight forward, and seems to be a bit more overtly martial.

 

But there seemed to be a lack of knowledge about even the existence of Bagua, and Frantzis filled that in. Even these days, there aren't a lot of people out there who can teach a lot of the serious internal components of bagua- maybe they know some martial applications, maybe some walking meditations, but the whole package? Few and very far between, I think.

 

In part, I think it was (and still is), a good marketing move- you got a system which can cater to the people who just want a good form of meditation, you can cater to the people who just want a bit of not too heavy impact exercise, and you can cater to the people who want to learn an internal martial art, all in one package!

 

As far as the history, Frantzis is kind of right. I did a lot of research into the origins of Tai Chi, and seeing as how lots of the big names in tai chi can get traced back to the Chen village, it's fairly easy to see how the art developed in the Chen village. There are records of where the Chen family came from, as well as the martial arts they practiced (they were fairly well known fighters). Then you have guys later on down the line who go hide out in the Shaolin temple for a bit, exhange with friends and colleagues, and who learn some health principles from TCM. The art is then revised to conform to certain TCM mechanics, but it is still a fighting art.

 

Several people in the Chen family had jobs guarding caravans. They kept their art indoors, but it was still a martial art. Yang Luchan goes and learns to fight. Then he goes to the capital and makes a career by fighting. He teaches his son, Yang Banhou, who is a serious fighter. And on down the line it goes. At least on the outside, it's a fighting martial art that sticks to principles that will help the body stay healthy, while at the same time producing lots of power, and being an effective fighting method overall. (note: there may be some in door meditative discipline that I don't know about, so no offense to any tai chi people).

 

Now you can also say there are different traditions of tai chi, some tracing back to places that are not Chen village, which gets fairly interesting as you investigate why Yang Luchan's tai chi form looks so different than what he learned in Chen village, but you can counter with inner door teachings of the Yang family, stylistic differences between the different sons/grandsons, etc etc....

 

In any case, a martial art that has health components to it gets picked up and promoted by certain parties, there is a de-emphasis on actual fighting, and a bigger emphasis on how healthy you can be (and stay) while doing tai chi, and then that reinforces (and amplifies) a meditative aspect which may or may not have been there the whole time.

 

Bagua is kind of interesting in that its history is different. Though certain aspects are mysterious, the circle walking in and of itself is a meditative practice (and daoist at that). From what I know, it was Dong Haichuan the martial artist which learned the circle walking meditation (and, I think, might have become a full taoist himself), and then adapted what he knew of martial arts to the circle walking to make a martial art.

 

Now as he taught various people in different ways (and depending on who you ask, different amounts!), you got a lot of different descendant styles of bagua (Yin style, Cheng, Gao, etc etc). But tracing back, the origins of bagua were in meditation, and learning to get into and connect with and flow with different energies, which can be applied to combat (there's certainly energy flows in combat!), but isn't exclusive to combat.

 

Tai chi can be seen differently in that it was always about fighting, then turned to meditation, but bagua was always about meditation, and later got turned to fighting (again, that's a very broad statement and might not apply everywhere, so please nobody take offense!)

 

While I don't always agree with the pretty blunt way that Frantzis says that kind of stuff, from what I know of the history (and from what I shared just now, probably boring most people or causing them to skip over stuff!), there is some truth that rings out in the statements.

Edited December 1, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[sean]

Great post Sloppy Zhang. Exactly what I wanted to hear more about.

 

Sean

[Gerard]

What one is in terms of year and one's bazi constitution are different. I'm no expert in this stuff, but as far as I know the bazi constitution is determined by the day one is born...

 

More precisely: year, month, day, and time.

 

Good info on this complex and extensive area of study is unfortunately only available in Chinese. same goes with Chinese Astrology (zi wei dou shu) which is based on the star system.

[Baguakid]

I've never been able to get into the yin style or what appears to be a flaired or non-tucked elbow style. This is from what I've seen on youtube as finding bagua is usually not so easy. We have a "tucked" elbow and somewhat different stepping.

 

I'm in Northern Nevada now, perhaps I will be able to see something live in the future which would help me understand the "non-tucked" style when ever I can get over to the bay area.

 

tks

[Sloppy Zhang]

[Baguakid]

If you don't mind my asking- what do you mean by a "flaired or non-tucked elbow style"?

 

 

Yes, What I mean is the elbow is facing the ground, not off to the side in any degree. My teacher would say not to 翘【qiào】 stick up; hold up; bend upwards; turn upwards.

 

Our form is more like a boxer (closed/tight) rather than what I've seen of Yin bagua on the web (open).

 

Here's a couple clips of my teacher in Shanghai.

 

 

Note his elbow(s) are kept down to protect the center. This is my meaning.

 

I consider this guy's elbow below dressed in black (in the mother palm) to be non-tucked. I couldn't find a BKF video but I know I've seen the same thing from him IIRC.

 

Edited December 1, 2010 by Baguakid

[sean]

Good info on this complex and extensive area of study is unfortunately only available in Chinese. same goes with Chinese Astrology (zi wei dou shu) which is based on the star system.

Liu Ming, a Taoist priest in Oakland, CA teaches a pretty intense course on zi wei in English once a year or so. I wish I had recorded all the classes when I took this, they were fantastic. He gave me permission but I only ended up recording a handful.

 

Here is one of them:

Liu Ming - Polestar Astrology - The Emperor

 

Also, his free introduction to zuowang meditation mp3 is excellent.

 

Sean

[sean]

[Baguakid]

Interesting. This is something Yang Yusen makes a point of emphasizing from the very first videos in the training at gaobagua.net.

 

Sean

 

You're saying he emphasizes keeping the elbow down?

 

I'm not saying all bagua lineages flairs the elbow. Some Gong BaoTian lineages are inline with ours. I'm saying from what I've seen from Yin style and BKF, that is different from us and I haven't yet figured out the theory of that methodology.

[sean]

You're saying he emphasizes keeping the elbow down?

Yeah, he gave two standing postures to start out with, and in both emphasized creating some internal tension where the elbows are pulling down and even inward.

 

Not sure what BKF has to say on this yet, or what any of this even means, I'm just a newb.

 

Sean

[Baguakid]

Yeah, he gave two standing postures to start out with, and in both emphasized creating some internal tension where the elbows are pulling down and even inward.

 

Not sure what BKF has to say on this yet, or what any of this even means, I'm just a newb.

 

Sean

 

 

I see.. Cool, cool

 

BTW, if that's you on the horse. Keep your feet on the balls of the feet in the stirups with your heels down. Otherwise if you fall off one of your feet could get hung up in a stirup. If that was a one time deal then save the tip for next time.