General Discussions

[rene]

Here's a rolling thread anyone can use for general discussions and random thoughts about the TaoTeChing overall, Laozi legends, TTC history & evolution, incorporation into Taoist doctrines, etc, or anything TTC related you want.

 

*****

 

UPDATE: July 23, 2013

 

Since the recent restructuring - we now have a whole sub-forum for these kinds of discussions - and you are right here reading in it!

 

If you find anything you want to comment on from the earlier pages of this thread - you can do it here or start a new topic, either way fine.

 

Have fun!

Edited July 23, 2013 by rene

[Marblehead]

Good idea. There have been many threads that have spoken to specific concepts presented by Lao Tzu. It will be nice if we can have a central location where these discussions can be found.

[Taomeow]

Yes, good idea, and congrats on the new forum!

 

So... I had this

in my personal forum section, but now that we have a special place... here goes:

 

-------***--------

 

The tao that can't be told

is the taoless narrator's excuse.

The tao just can't be told

by a tongue-tied, uncouth storyteller.

 

The tao that you can't tell

because you don't know her language

is not the tao you say --

you expect me to take your word

for it?..

 

The tao that can't be told

is the earwax sufferer's tao.

The tao that can't be told

is the tao of the dumb and the numb.

 

The tao that you can't tell

from the contents of an empty eggshell

after eating your hard-boiled egg

defies your power of speech?

Why am I not surprised

by this?..

 

The tao that can't be told

is only silent on the pillow

where your head seeks its rest

from the empty nest

inside its midbrain

where "I love you" never hatched

like an egg

that your mother forgot to lay there

and your father did not fertilize.

 

Do you want me to help

you?..

[rene]

Taomeow - Thanks on the congrats and for sharing those words! Totally agree. Line one of chapter one of the number one book says tao cant be fully described; nothing more. Easy to fall on the other idea though, when excuses reasons are needed.

[rene]

A Translation's Approach

 

Early in the Chapter 2 thread, we talked about the differences in approach, maybe best shown by a few lines of the Ch 2 translations by Henricks and Feng/English:

 

Henricks:

10. Therefore the Sage dwells in nonactive affairs and practices the wordless teaching.

11. The ten thousand things arise, but he doesn't begin them;

12. He acts on their behalf, but he doesn't make them dependent;

13. He accomplishes his tasks, but he doesn't dwell on them;

- In this version, the Sage is present in each line.

 

 

Feng/English:

Therefore the sage goes about doing nothing, teaching no-talking.

The ten thousand things rise and fall without cease,

Creating, yet not.

Working, yet not taking credit.

Work is done, then forgotten.

Therefore it lasts forever.

- In this version - the Sage's presence ends with the first line.

 

***

 

In the Ch 1 thread, TianShi asked, "what is this book about? is it a car owner's manual or a crime novel?" and that is the point of this whole post.

 

It might be that if the Translators began their work with a preconceived idea that the TTC is, or should be, an 'instruction manual' then the Chapters in their translation will likely have the flavor of what we 'should or shouldn't' do regarding this or that and insert the Sage to exemplify what our choices should be.

 

If the Translators have the preconceived idea that the TTC is, or should be, only a 'description' - there would be less need to insert the Sage into what occurs on its own, and the flavor would be in more in the manner of 'here it is, see anything useful there?'

 

I think either way is fine; we each approach the TTC for our own reasons and in our own way. It might be fun as we go through the Chapters to see if this pattern remains consistant, within and between, the Translators and their renditions.

 

All comments welcome.

[Marblehead]

Hi Rene,

 

I actually prefer the Feng/English translation of this over what Henricks presents. This is because I think that in Henricks' translation the Sage is being put on a pedestal where he/she is causing all these things to happen.

 

But then, I don't like the flow of the words in the Feng/English translation but that is just a minor point.

 

I think that more important is that the people will do the right thing and their lives will flow naturally if they are left alone. But again, we see this concept "naturally". What kind of life is a 'natural' way of life? I believe that this is answered whenever the Tao Te Ching speaks to the concept of Te.

[rene]

...But again, we see this concept "naturally". What kind of life is a 'natural' way of life? I believe that this is answered whenever the Tao Te Ching speaks to the concept of Te.

 

And that depends on what you mean by "Te" and we'll get to that soon enough.

 

As far as "What kind of life is a 'natural' way of life?" I think most folks have a 'back to Nature' idea on this, but my take is a little different.

 

There's a line in an upcoming Chapter that usually goes something like: "In dwelling, live close to the land." But W.Wang translates that line something like: "In dwelling, best to adapt to the place" which makes more sense to me because 1) not everyone can go escape to the mountains (heheh), and 2) finding a way to flow with ones surroundings, whatever and wherever they might be, may be the more watercourse way - as majc likes to call it - and more useful.

[Taomeow]

Taomeow - Thanks on the congrats and for sharing those words! Totally agree. Line one of chapter one of the number one book says tao cant be fully described; nothing more. Easy to fall on the other idea though, when excuses reasons are needed.

 

The literal translation of the first two lines is this:

 

Tao can be told

Tao is not eternal

 

While someone who so desires can indeed read this as "the tao that can be told is not the eternal tao," one needs to imagine and then insert special prepositions and conjunctions of one's own choice and change the word order accordingly so as to contribute this particular meaning to the words that are actually there. It "can" mean what it is usually translated to mean. OR it can mean something diametrically opposite. In fact, since Laozi TELLS, by writing the book about "the way and its power," I think he might start telling by justifying the act of telling, by saying it can be done.

 

"Tao is not eternal" may signify something meaningful in this context too. This is not the denial of its absolute nature. This can be read as the denial of its untouchability by human cognition. This can be read as another way to say "tao is all about change." This can be read as "tao does not stop, does not cease, does not arrive at a destination of any finality." This, in other words, is very taoist, very un-untaoist. Most translators were not taoists, and many were un-taoists. A non-taoist or an un-taoist is very likely to break his or her teeth on the very first pit of the very first of Laozi's peaches.

[rene]

The literal translation of the first two lines is this:

 

Tao can be told

Tao is not eternal

 

While someone who so desires can indeed read this as "the tao that can be told is not the eternal tao," one needs to imagine and then insert special prepositions and conjunctions of one's own choice and change the word order accordingly so as to contribute this particular meaning to the words that are actually there. It "can" mean what it is usually translated to mean. OR it can mean something diametrically opposite. In fact, since Laozi TELLS, by writing the book about "the way and its power," I think he might start telling by justifying the act of telling, by saying it can be done.

 

"Tao is not eternal" may signify something meaningful in this context too. This is not the denial of its absolute nature. This can be read as the denial of its untouchability by human cognition. This can be read as another way to say "tao is all about change." This can be read as "tao does not stop, does not cease, does not arrive at a destination of any finality." This, in other words, is very taoist, very un-untaoist. Most translators were not taoists, and many were un-taoists. A non-taoist or an un-taoist is very likely to break his or her teeth on the very first pit of the very first of Laozi's peaches.

 

LOL yeah. Your "Tao can be told, Tao is not eternal" thoughts line up with my "Tao cant be fully described".

 

'Tao cant be fully described' , i.e, it can be told about, described, talked about, etc, in part.

 

'Tao cant be fully described' , i.e., as tao is dynamic, it's impossible to capture to contain it fully within a definition/description.

 

:tossin you a peach:

 

[rene]

*Moved to Resources thread*

Edited December 1, 2010 by rene

[Marblehead]

And that depends on what you mean by "Te" and we'll get to that soon enough.

 

There's no doubt in my mind. Hehehe.

[Marblehead]

While someone who so desires can indeed read this as "the tao that can be told is not the eternal tao," one needs to imagine and then insert special prepositions and conjunctions of one's own choice and change the word order accordingly so as to contribute this particular meaning to the words that are actually there. It "can" mean what it is usually translated to mean. OR it can mean something diametrically opposite. In fact, since Laozi TELLS, by writing the book about "the way and its power," I think he might start telling by justifying the act of telling, by saying it can be done.

 

Agreed. Chuang Tzu speaks to this by saying (I paraphrase): The Tao cannot be told. But I will tell you about some of its attributes.

[unmike]

I've always parsed it as an admission that "Though describable, the Tao is everchanging". Dovetails nicely with the idea of impermanence in the Buddhist sense, and further suggests the finger and the moon.

 

*edited for unintentional quotation

Edited December 3, 2010 by unmike

[Marblehead]

I've always parsed it as an admission that "Though describable, the Tao is everchanging". Dovetails nicely with the idea of impermanence in the Buddhist sense, and further suggests the finger and the moon.

 

*edited for unintentional quotation

 

 

Yes. That is valid as well, I think.

[Taomeow]

Well, I'm grateful for this forum -- I don't normally look at TTC for anything in particular, other than to figure out why it has been so popular for so long. (Why the Bible while we're at it? Is it a great book or something?..) So I took another look here and there to see what it is I might be missing, and I seem to have figured it out.

 

It is indeed one of those books whose popularity will endure because it is a bittersweet onion with many soothing then shocking then soothing layers -- and you notice the layer that resonates with the layer of reality you personally are experiencing most strongly at the moment. Come back to it a different woman or man and it is a different book. I remember reading it as a political instructions manual for the ruler. I remember reading it as a taiji practice footnotes. I remember reading it as an internal-alchemical text. I now read it as a cosmology. And I suspect this is the case in every case -- you read yourself into this text, somehow. I even know how to design a book this way (it is arranged in a hypnotic double-helix triple-spiral pattern that is so resonant with the natural DNA pattern of the human body that whatever it tells you is perceived as something you absolutely "get" -- just like you "get" instructions of your DNA without ever doubting them... The double-helix triple-spiral patterns of organizing speech are the staple of hypnotic techniques.)

 

Which is why I've seen many "readings" of this book that make absolutely no sense to me -- e.g. all the applications derived by the "inherently powerless." I don't feel powerless, so I can't read it this way. It's not a matter of actually having worldly power, it's a matter of self-perception... and I've seen this book perceived in ways that are not available to me, but it does not mean they are wrong. It is designed to have personal meaning. That's why it's been around and venerated for so long. Nifty...

[rene]

Taomeow - I quite agree. Your idea re the double-helix triple-spiral patterns might be the same method intrinsically (instinctually?) used in oral-teachings by Lakota and other Nations; I say might because there is a specific pattern of repeating within the stories told, but haven't examined it past noticing the natural fit in the hearing. If the pattern exists in the TTC, and if the pattern does underly us in some inherent manner, that could explain why some may be more predisposed towards receptivity or recognition - at different times or different frames of reference.

 

That we each see the TTC in our own way? Maybe the TTC is like a pair of glasses we can each put on to peek at what dwells within. What would come through my lenses wouldn't be seen through yours: even though we've the same frame hanging off our noses.

 

Glad you're peekin in the subforum.

 

warm regards

[Mal]

and I've seen this book perceived in ways that are not available to me, but it does not mean they are wrong. It is designed to have personal meaning. That's why it's been around and venerated for so long. Nifty...

 

Yep it's a Rorschach alright

 

I tried to list the bestselling ones on amazon and got

 

Tao Te Ching: A New English Version

 

but also adaptations :-

The Tao of Leadership: Lao Tzu's Tao Te Ching Adapted for a New Age

 

multiple books, by the same author

 

The Couple's Tao Te Ching: Ancient Advice for Modern Lovers

The Parent's Tao Te Ching: Ancient Advice for Modern Parents

The Sage's Tao Te Ching: Ancient Advice for the Second Half of Life

A Path and a Practice: Using Lao Tzu's Tao Te Ching as a Guide to an Awakened Spiritual Life

 

and even coffee table picture books adapting some of the sayings

Heaviness is the basis of lightness.

Since heavy and light are just more opposites, I am always the ideal weight.

riped from Wilson the Pug

[The Way Is Virtue]

I posted this in anopther thread regarding Taoism and compassion, but I thought I would repost it here as it also relates to the concept of 'de' in the Dao De Jing, which seems to be a word that is interpreted in various different ways and thus can be confusing to Western readers. This is just my personal take on the matters of de and compassion in the Tao Te Ching and in taoism in general:

 

When people read the Tao Te Ching (Dao De Jing), it may seem that it makes things very impersonal, almost uncaring from a certain perspective. But many people might also agree that what is written in the Tao Te Ching is not at all easy to understand, and it seems that there are possibly many ways to interpret it, and it also seems that it is multilayered and addresses things at various levels all at the same time. By changing one's perspective it can seem to speak about how to conduct oneself in every day normal life and how to interact with others, and at the same time from a different perspective it seems to be giving guidance on inner cultivation and proper conduct and attitude for inner cultivation, and it also seems to hint at the inner workings of tao as the 'great mystery' as well as the inner workings of tao in its many 'outward' expressions, etc. Depending on which translation one reads it may seem that some aspects are emphasized more than other aspects but I suspect that is more than a little due to the biases of the translators. I think when one examines the original Chinese characters it is easier see how it could easily be interpreted in many different ways, and how it seems to be speaking at many different levels.

 

Anyway, my point is that I think one should be very careful about drawing definite conclusions about what is really being said in the Tao Te Ching just based on one's own particular point of view and current way of thinking.

It seems to me that even amongst different traditions in Taoism there can be various different perspectives and interpretations of 'tao' with different emphasis placed on different things. When viewed from this perspective it should give one pause to think that even amongst practicing Taoists there are various different perspectives with different emphasis, presumably based on different points of view and different understanding, and different cultural biases at the time. It seems to me they are all outward expressions of 'tao'. Some perspectives and practices may be good, some may be fairly neutral, some may be bad. All exist in the outward expression of tao, or so it is said.

 

Also, from what I have seen, most if not all actual practicing Taoists did/do follow certain rules of conduct and many seem to place emphasis on being of service to others and helping others and society as a whole. Also some Taoist writings go into detail about various types of de and that the 'accumulation' of de (te) is the main deciding factor in how one truly progresses in their cultivation.

I have seen de broken down into 4 levels, starting at the lowest level of de to the highest:

pin de - morality and virtues.

gong de - helping others through one's actions.

yin de - helping others anonymously without selfish motive, with no desire or intent for personal recognition or gratitude, etc.

dao de - helping others in their progress to realize dao

 

Note added later: I should also probably point out that although these are expressed as levels, all are important and the higer levels build on the foundation of the lower levels. One can't embody a higher level without first having embodied the lower levels as a foundation. This is my understanding of it anyway.

 

Here is a passage from the 'Yellow Emperor's Hidden Talisman scripture", thought to orginate in the 6th century CE:

"Heaven is without kindness

but from this great kindness is born"

 

 

.

Wishing everyone all the best in their journeys...

Edited December 12, 2010 by The Way Is Virtue

[rene]

TheWayIsVirtue,

 

Thank you for your well thought out and detailed post. I agree that these things can indeed appear multilayered and some people find it much easier to reflect on these things in that manner if for no other reason than to keep concepts sorted out! I also agree that each will view things through the perspective they have for how could it be otherwise? Your counsel is wise that we all should make allowances not only for others' perspectives but also allowances for our own perspectives to change. It is through these discussions that we all have the opportunity to explore not only the complexities of these things but also the opportunity to find the natural simplicity inherent in Tao; the simplicity of the natural quietness of the nei xin; present and available to us at all times. Are these things really as difficult and complex as we make them? I wonder why we try to complicate things unnecessarily. But I digress, your post was about not drawing definate conclusions and I thank you for sharing your thoughts on this.

 

warm regards

[Aaron]

I think that the Tao is very simple, so simple that when we are finally aware of it, we wonder how we ever missed it in the first place. The contradiction that exists, is that the way to simplicity can seem complicated, and only after you realize it's complexity do you understand it's simplicity.

 

My personal belief about Te doesn't matter to anyone really, except for me. If I have something I think is worth sharing and I don't share it, then how will I ever know it was worth sharing. I know few masters who say, "Don't ask questions, just do as you're told." A teacher might say that, but someone who has become aware would see that comment as silly.

 

In the same way the ancient masters spoke about Tao, Te, Zen, and various other things that couldn't be expressed in words, knowing that they couldn't be expressed in words, but that people sometimes need answers to their questions.

 

Aaron

Edited December 13, 2010 by Twinner

[Paulw]

The TTC has inspired me to slowly unlock the gates within my mind, gates labelled with negative emotions, and reveal a complete new way of life and thinking for me. However I have also come to realise that it is also only a guide toward the Tao written by a man no different to myself other than the era that we have lived in.

The book itself holds no reverence to any god, this showed immediate appeal to me as I have for the greater part of my life classed myself as an atheist, instead it has shown me the way to see Tao in behaviour of people, nature and just about everything that exists. The TTC has helped to me to stop reasoning with myself when making decisions, to understand about dualities and the need not to judge or compare.

 

Generally an fantastic piece of work but I hold the Tao dear to my heart and not the book itself.

[april]

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[rene]

The TTC has inspired me to slowly unlock the gates within my mind, gates labelled with negative emotions, and reveal a complete new way of life and thinking for me. However I have also come to realise that it is also only a guide toward the Tao written by a man no different to myself other than the era that we have lived in.

The book itself holds no reverence to any god, this showed immediate appeal to me as I have for the greater part of my life classed myself as an atheist, instead it has shown me the way to see Tao in behaviour of people, nature and just about everything that exists. The TTC has helped to me to stop reasoning with myself when making decisions, to understand about dualities and the need not to judge or compare.

 

Generally an fantastic piece of work but I hold the Tao dear to my heart and not the book itself.

 

Paulw - agree and well said. Thanks for sharing your experience. (-:

 

warm regards

[Guan-Wen]

Yes. Definitely the finger and the moon! Definitely it is a tool that lends itself to the usewr. The world is seen and experienced according to the modality of the viewer. The magic of words and language that they can speak to us as a people but also intimately as individuals whatever our modality or millieu. TheTTC is just as much an oracle as the IC, just as the IC can b seen to flow and express the watercourse way as eloquently as the TTC. As Sifu Bruce Lee used to say:"The essence of Martial Arts is to honestly and openly express myself..." And of course to be like water. So when each of us slips in to the watercourse way, it will mold itself to us and we will experience it in our own unique way. We Tao Bums are rather like a gestalt in that we can all be informed by each others experience and so experience a multi-textured immersion in the Tao.

 

Om Gaia dudes.

[Aaron]

Hello Folks,

 

I'll be working long hours in the weeks to come. I'll still be checking in now and again, but I wont be on as much as I was. If you have issues with the Tao Teh Ching forum please send me a message and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. If it's an emergency you can contact one of the site moderators and I'm sure they'll be happy to help.

 

Aaron