[TTC Study] Chapter 3 of the Tao Teh Ching

[majc]

I made a mistake: it should be

 

With not a thing to prove,

things are ordered.

 

These threads are awesome.

[Marblehead]

  On 12/2/2010 at 1:21 PM, majc said:

I made a mistake: it should be

 

With not a thing to prove,

things are ordered.

 

These threads are awesome.

 

I like that even better.

 

Agreed. The chapters being presented one at a time gives so much opportunity for discussion of the concepts contained within.

[Apech]

  On 12/2/2010 at 7:13 AM, TianShi said:

this is thinking in the right direction but not close enough. managing a team is quite different from managing a totalitarian state.

 

and make no mistake this is what DDJ is all about. the rest of the commenters just refuse to see this obvious fact.

 

You are right on the subject matter to a certain extent - although 'totalitarian' is almost an anachronism as the vast majority of rulers in the ancient world assumed the absolute power of kingship or similar ... I don't think anyone is refusing to acknowledge this - its just that the wisdom which Lao Tzu imparts can be applied as much to the individual as it can be to a king in terms of the right way to be and live. In giving a 'management' example I was trying to show that the same Taoist view can apply to the kind of circumstances we might find ourselves in, as much as to a king in the middle of warring factions.

 

Like it or not we do have to manage and 'rule' our lives and we do (unless we are hermits) have to interact with others.

 

Of course Chuang Tzu applies Taoist wisdom in a different way.

 

Richard John Lynn says this when comparing Lao Tzu to Chuang Tzu:

 

"The two texts have a very different emphasis ... whereas the Laozi is primarily addressed to the ruler who would be a sage-king and is mainly concerned with achieving the good society through harmony with nature, the Zhuangzi is contemptuous of rulership - in theory and practice - and indifferent to social life in general and instead focuses almost exclusively on personal self-realization and the quest for happiness through the individual's integration with nature."

[Procurator]

  On 12/2/2010 at 2:15 PM, Apech said:

You are right on the subject matter to a certain extent - although 'totalitarian' is almost an anachronism as the vast majority of rulers in the ancient world assumed the absolute power of kingship or similar ... I don't think anyone is refusing to acknowledge this - its just that the wisdom which Lao Tzu imparts can be applied as much to the individual as it can be to a king in terms of the right way to be and live. In giving a 'management' example I was trying to show that the same Taoist view can apply to the kind of circumstances we might find ourselves in, as much as to a king in the middle of warring factions.

 

i dont know how you can equate a life of an average working stiff, with a superhuman king whose job descriprion includes actually killing people that the text envisages but more power to you.

 

now all of the errors in this discussion stem from two things: bad translation and pushing own ideas on the text. nothing can be done about the latter but i will present a correct translation here so what was much talked about as "action without action' is revealed as a fiction. there is no such phrase in this paragraph.

[majc]

  On 12/2/2010 at 2:51 PM, TianShi said:

now all of the errors in this discussion stem from two things: bad translation and pushing own ideas on the text.

Haha, wow. Iron - meet E.

[majc]

  On 12/2/2010 at 7:19 AM, TianShi said:

and make no mistake [managing a totalitarian state as a superhuman king who kills people] is what DDJ is all about. the rest of the commenters just refuse to see this obvious fact.

Say, angry-sounding man, what about the vast majority of chapters which make barely any reference to government whatsoever? How do they fit in with your hopelessly irrational theory, I mean, 'obvious fact'? All you're doing is betraying a personal preoccupation with power, and a fearful mistrust of it.

 

Power exists. It's a perfectly natural dynamic (on many levels, not just in human beings, and not just in running countries) and the world isn't a perfect, safe, secure place. Why try and pretend otherwise? And why on earth would you expect someone perceptive enough to write the Tao Te Ching to adopt such an unrealistic, blinkered view of the way things are?

[Apech]

It is a tradition of all (nearly all?) cultures that the sage advises the king e.g. Merlin and Arthur ... and so on. There is nothing so strange for Lao Tzu to do the same. All Shakespeare's history plays can be seen as a kind of dialogue about power and responsibility. Even today in our so-called democracies we still invest in our elected leaders the awful responsibility of life and death. Bush and Blair committed many to death - both our own and our 'enemies' and also the innocent. We cannot pretend that that these things do not exist or bury our heads in the sand. Lao Tzu is talking about the real world not a politically correct one.

[dawei]

  On 12/2/2010 at 2:51 PM, TianShi said:

now all of the errors in this discussion stem from two things: bad translation and pushing own ideas on the text. nothing can be done about the latter but i will present a correct translation here so what was much talked about as "action without action' is revealed as a fiction. there is no such phrase in this paragraph.

That could be said of Wang Bi and all the others who wrote commentaries and the versions of the manuscript used by most today.

 

The presence of the phrase 'wei wu wei' depends on the manuscript used too. Since 99.9% of the versions on bookshelves use Wang Bi as the basic text, you have that phrase at the end of this chapter. To be fair, he seems to follow the traditional rendering which is found in the Fu Yi but not found in the Ma Wang Dui (which Hendricks translates).

[Procurator]

  On 12/2/2010 at 4:25 PM, majc said:

Say, angry-sounding man, what about the vast majority of chapters which make barely any reference to government whatsoever? How do they fit in with your hopelessly irrational theory, I mean, 'obvious fact'?

the rest of the chapters also talk about governance- you just dont see it in faulty translations that you r using.

[Procurator]

  On 12/2/2010 at 7:37 PM, dawei said:

That could be said of Wang Bi and all the others who wrote commentaries and the versions of the manuscript used by most today.

 

true:)). but my point is that the phrase is wrongfully translated "wei wu wei" does not mean "to act without acting" , so all the nonsensical explanations of that phrase that people derive from this wrong translations are fantasies.

 

3. Keeping people from rebellion

 

不尚賢，if the wise are not honored

使民不爭；- then people will not mutiny

不貴難得之貨，if luxuries are not made available

使民不為盜；- then people will not act (WEI) as insurgents

不見可欲，if not shown any desirables

使心不亂。-then the hearts will not rebel

是以聖人之治，That is why when the Superhuman governs them,

虛其心，實其腹，he makes their hearts empty - but stomachs full;

弱其志，強其骨。he makes their will weak - but bodies strong.

常使民無知無欲。If it is so constantly - then people will have no (WU) ideas, no (WU) desires

使夫知者不敢為也。then the men with ideas will not dare to act (WEI) also

為無為，則無不治。

If THEIR action (WEI) is made in- (WU) -active (WEI) then there will be no one(WU) disobedient.

Edited December 3, 2010 by TianShi

[Procurator]

this chapter is about a ruthless frighteningly effective totalitarian state. wei-wu- wei does not mean any of the sunshine and lollypops made up ideas about taoism. It means to cut any action at the root, eliminate the very seed of a possible action against the ruler.

 

you probably heard about the "cultural revolution" 50 years ago and wondered at the irrationality of it. well, now you know why it was done and why china is ruling the world now.

[Stigweard]

[Procurator]

[Procurator]

  On 12/3/2010 at 1:51 AM, Stigweard said:

Wow! Thanks for such a totally misconstrued and slanted translation TianShi. I have always believed one will translate the Daodejing, or choose a translation, based on one's view of the world.

apparently knowledge of wenyan or the history is not criteria here

  Quote

 

Is this your translation?

yes. Stig i have been studying wenyan for 10 years now, trust me, i have checked my characters.

Edited December 3, 2010 by TianShi

[Stigweard]

  On 12/3/2010 at 1:55 AM, TianShi said:

yeah and there is the word "pacify" same root as peace, its an euphemism for "beating into submission"

Yes and are you sure that you are not reading your own mental constructs into the translation?

 

Just a thought.

 

[Procurator]

  On 12/3/2010 at 2:01 AM, Stigweard said:

Yes and are you sure that you are not reading your own mental constructs into the translation?

i am sure, and it si supported by the entire text of the chapter. i can handle the truth. the new agee fantasists cant.

[Stigweard]

  On 12/3/2010 at 2:08 AM, TianShi said:

i am sure, and it si supported by the entire text of the chapter. i can handle the truth. the new agee fantasists cant.

Sorry but there are numerous characters that you have chosen to read and change their base meaning to suit your take on things. Now I am not saying you aren't allowed to do it ... hell I have done the same with my work.

 

I think you might just have to be open to the possibility that your view on things may neither be the only way of viewing it nor might it be the most correct way of viewing it.

 

[Stigweard]

Chapter Three -- Peaceful People

 

When the worthy are not exalted,

There is no contention amongst people;

When rare goods are not treasured,

There is no theft amongst people;

When causes for desire are not seen,

There is no confusion in people’s minds.

 

Knowing this the sage counsels:

Empty their minds,

Fill their bellies,

Weaken their convictions,

Strengthen their bones.

 

Preserve people’s subtle view and innocence.

Give no cause for cunning and contrivance.

 

Leading without controlling,

Results in nothing out of control.

 

Stigweard's Daodejing 道德經

 

Original Text:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Chinese Characters:

 

第三章 -- 安民

 

不尚賢，

使民不爭﹔

不貴難得之貨，

使民不為盜;

不見可欲，

使民心不亂 。

是以「聖人」之治，

虛其心，

實其腹，

弱其志，

強其骨。

常使民無知無 欲。

使夫智者不敢為也。

為無為，

則無不治。

 

Chinese Pinyin:

 

Ān mín

 

Bù shàng xián,

Shǐ mín bù zhēng;

Bù guì nán zhī huò,

Shǐ mín bù dào;

Bù Jiàn Kě Yù,

Shǐ mín xīn bù luàn.

 

Shì yǐ shèngrén zhī zhì,

Xū qí xīn,

Shí qí fù,

Ruò qí zhì,

Qiáng qí gǔ.

 

Cháng shǐ mín wú zhī wú yù.

Shǐ fū zhì zhě bù gǎn wèi yě.

 

Wèi wú wèi,

Zé wú bù zhì.

 

 

Ancient Seal / Bronze Characters:

 

---

 

 

Translator's Notes and Commentary:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Chapter Overview:

 

Chapter three progresses Laozi’s dialogue into the practical applications for the ruler or someone in position of authority. It is important to note the flow of principles from chapters one and two.

 

The first stanza is about placing conceptual or contrived value on one thing over the other. By declaring a person or a thing as more valuable then other people or things we automatically create have and have not, superior and inferior. This remember is Laozi’s insight from Chapter 2. By creating these hierarchical constructs through conceptual description it instills in people a sense of lack and it is this lack that is the base cause of desire.

 

The last sentence of stanza one has often been rendered in terms of “hiding desires out of sight”. I see it differently based on the insights of the previous two chapters. When people avoid attaching hierarchically valued labels on things then the fundamental cause for desire is not “seen” -- meaning it doesn’t even become part of their view of the world.

 

With this insight in mind the sage counsels to empty people’s minds of fixated conceptual descriptions and instead nourish the things that bring natural wholesomeness; weaken fixed abstractions and rigid belief systems and strengthen what is fundamental to a good life.

 

My usage of the terms “subtle view” and “innocence” comes from Chapter 1:

 

Therefore, enduring innocence

Comes from the subtle view;

Incessant desire for things

Comes from the superficial view.

 

The last stanza is also different from common translations. Wèi wú wèi is one of the most quoted Taoist principles and most people take it to mean “doing without doing” or “acting without action”. But if you closely at the seal script, wèi is actually a hand leading an elephant – it is the image of artificial control of one thing over the other – of mans interference with something natural. Thus I have chosen: “Leading without controlling” which ties in with the fact that Laozi certainly seems to be addressing this chapter to someone in authority.

 

Line 1: 不尚賢，-- Bù shàng xián,

 

Bù meaning “no, not; un-; negative prefix”.

 

Shàng means: “uphold, honor, esteem, value, surpass, ascend, exalt”. Pictographically it is a roof of building with window. It could also be seen as to divide in one direction, or in other words, to give preference to one thing over the other. As a personal take on the seal character, it could be seen as elevating upwards thus giving one thing “higher standing”.

 

Xián has the central image of a cowrie shell which was used as currency, so we have the underlying meaning of “worthy, valuable, able, good”. The character explicitly places this worth in reference to a person, of note a “statesman”, so also rendered are: “talented, virtuous, sage.”

 

Line 2: 使民不爭﹔-- Shǐ mín bù zhēng;

 

Shǐ is the image of a government person, like a diplomat, envoy, officer, deputy, ambassador, emissary, or a government servant. Meanings include: “cause, enable, make, use, employ, send on a mission, order; envoy, messenger, ambassador.”

 

Mín has a few variants in its imagery. It could be either an eye being pricked by an awl (referencing a slave), a vagina (from which people come), or a sprouting plant. It is fairly universally rendered as “people, citizen, subjects, public.”

 

Bù meaning “no, not; un-; negative prefix”.

 

Zhēng is the image of two hands fighting to grab a lance or a string. So meanings include: “dispute, fight, contend, strive, wrangle, compete, argue, struggle, quarrel.”

 

Line 3: 不貴難得之貨, -- Bù guì nán zhī huò,

 

Bù meaning “no, not; un-; negative prefix”.

 

Guì is a repeat of the imagery of xián in that the central image is of the cowrie shell hence something with value. This time it shows either two hands or a basket full of cowrie shells so we have the meanings of: “expensive, costly, valuable, precious, high-placed, high-ranking, honorable, distinguished, noble.”

 

Nán is a little obscure without knowing the cultural context. Pictographically meaning a yellow bird, common translations include “difficult, arduous, hard, unable, unpleasant, troublesome.” I can only assume that the bird in question was a troublesome, unpleasant critter.

 

Dé is also centered around the cowrie shell. This time it’s the image of walking out to grab the shell / money. So meanings include: “obtain, get, gain, acquire, win, purchase, need, must, greed.”

 

Zhī is merely a preceding phrase as a modifier, like the word ‘it’.

 

Huò is this time focused directly on the cowrie shell as an item. So we have the meanings: “money, currency, goods, commodities, products, produce, trade, sell, bribe.”

 

Line 4: 使民不為盜﹔-- Shǐ mín bù dào;

 

Shǐ is the image of a government person, like a diplomat, envoy, officer, deputy, ambassador, emissary, or a government servant. Meanings include: “cause, enable, make, use, employ, send on a mission, order; envoy, messenger, ambassador.”

 

Mín has a few variants in its imagery. It could be either an eye being pricked by an awl (referencing a slave), a vagina (from which people come), or a sprouting plant. It is fairly universally rendered as “people, citizen, subjects, public.”

 

Bù meaning “no, not; un-; negative prefix”.

 

Dào is the image of spitting in a bowl which is an oath among robbers.

 

Line 5: 不見可欲，-- Bù Jiàn Kě Yù,

 

Bù meaning “no, not; un-; negative prefix”.

 

Jiàn is person with a big eye, so the meanings include: “see, observe, behold, perceive, meet, appear, observe, examine, view, opinion.”

 

Kě shows a couple of images. First is the image of someone carrying a load, but it can also be seen as a mouth consenting. It is commonly translated as: “may, can, to be able to, permission, certainly”.

 

Yù is almost universally translated as ‘desire’ and I feel it requires some extra investigation just for a point of interest. Yù implies a sense of lack, like a man who has ‘lost his wind’ and therefore has a strong want or desire for breath. So Yù is to want, to long for and to desire.

 

Line 6: 使民心不亂 。-- Shǐ mín xīn bù luàn.

 

Shǐ is the image of a government person, like a diplomat, envoy, officer, deputy, ambassador, emissary, or a government servant. Meanings include: “cause, enable, make, use, employ, send on a mission, order; envoy, messenger, ambassador.”

 

Mín has a few variants in its imagery. It could be either an eye being pricked by an awl (referencing a slave), a vagina (from which people come), or a sprouting plant. It is fairly universally rendered as “people, citizen, subjects, public.”

 

Xīn is the picture of a heart. In Taoist ontology the heart is often seen as the seat of the mind, so meanings include: “heart; mind, intelligence; soul, conscience, moral nature, intention.”

 

Bù meaning “no, not; un-; negative prefix”.

 

Luàn is the image of a man kneeling on right trying to unravel a mess of string on the left. So meanings include: “confusion, chaos, revolt, distraction, disarranged, perplexed, disorderly, upheaval.”

 

Line 7: 是以聖人之治，-- Shì yǐ shèngrén zhī zhì,

 

Shì is a demonstrative pronoun with meanings of “yes, right, to be, this, that, which, correct, indeed”.

 

Yǐ pictographically implies something that emanates from an object, like steam rises from boiling water. One thing causes another. So the meanings include: “

 

Shèngrén is normally read together with shèng meaning “holy; sacred; saint; sage” and rén meaning “man; person; people”. Thus the popular “sage” rendition is achieved.

 

Zhī is merely a preceding phrase as a modifier, like the word ‘it’.

 

Zhì gives us the image of controlling or harnessing the flow of a river or water. Thus we have the meanings: “control, govern, manage, rule, regulate, harness.”

 

Line 8: 虛其心，-- Xū qí xīn,

 

Xū gives us the imagery of mountains, a place that is empty perhaps in the sense of “no-one lives there”. Meanings include: “devoid of content; void; false; empty, hollow, vain, unoccupied, unreal, false, deceptive.”

 

Qí is a pronoun like he, she, it, they etc. and usually refers to somebody or something mentioned earlier.

 

Xīn is the picture of a heart. In Taoist ontology the heart is often seen as the seat of the mind, so meanings include: “heart; mind, intelligence; soul, conscience, moral nature, intention.”

 

Line 9: 實其腹，-- Shí qí fù,

 

Shí gives us the image of a building with string of cowrie shells or coins – perhaps a sign of “real” wealth. Meanings include: “real, true, honest, really, solid, substantial, concrete, genuine, full.”

 

Qí is a pronoun like he, she, it, they etc. and usually refers to somebody or something mentioned earlier.

 

Fù indicates the belly of the body so meanings include: “stomach, belly, abdomen; inside, front part.”

 

Line 10: 弱其志，-- Ruò qí zhì,

 

Ruò shows two young birds wings. So meanings include: “weak, fragile, tender, delicate, lesser, inferior.”

 

Qí is a pronoun like he, she, it, they etc. and usually refers to somebody or something mentioned earlier.

 

Zhì presents the image of the heart (i.e. mind) and the character for scholar or an educated person. Used in the sense of “make up ones mind” meanings include: “purpose, will, determination, pursue some object, bent on doing something, ambition, interest.”

 

Line 11: 強其骨。-- Qiáng qí gǔ.

 

Qiáng gives us the image of a strong bow, which shoots the arrow above several acres of land. Hence meanings include: “Strong, powerful, energetic, vigorous, better, violent, inflexible, obstinate, stubborn.”

 

Qí is a pronoun like he, she, it, they etc. and usually refers to somebody or something mentioned earlier.

 

Gǔ shows bones with flesh. Some say it is the bones without the flesh, others the bones at the core of flesh. Meanings include: “bone, frame, framework, skeleton.”

 

Line 12: 常使民無知無欲。-- Cháng shǐ mín wú zhī wú yù.

 

Cháng has a degree of controversy around it. Apparently the original character was héng 恒, but was replaced in all texts by 常 cháng out of respect to one Emperor Héng. Because of this, however, we can assume that cháng and héng imply the same meaning.

 

Cháng, the image of cloth on a loom, means: common, normal, frequent, constant, eternal or regular. Héng 恒 provides the image of a heart 忄 beside a sun or moon which is moving between two points 亘, thus we again have the meanings of: regularity, constancy, continually, persevering, or eternal. Important to note that Hexagram 32 of the I Ching is called Héng, which is often translated as: constancy, persevering, enduring.

 

Shǐ is the image of a government person, like a diplomat, envoy, officer, deputy, ambassador, emissary, or a government servant. Meanings include: “cause, enable, make, use, employ, send on a mission, order; envoy, messenger, ambassador.”

 

Mín has a few variants in its imagery. It could be either an eye being pricked by an awl (referencing a slave), a vagina (from which people come), or a sprouting plant. It is fairly universally rendered as “people, citizen, subjects, public.”

 

Wú 無 simply means an absence or negative like the terms “no, not, have no”. It can either be the image of cleared patch of forest, thus negation, or it has also been pictographically linked to shaman dancers holding tassels with my implication of that the tassels become the focus of attention and the dancer “disappears”.

 

Zhī, commonly translated as “to know” or “regards”, is a composite of an arrow and an open mouth. So in a sense this is saying when we point or aim at something with our speech, so “declare” might be used.

 

Wú 無 simply means an absence or negative like the terms “no, not, have no”.

 

Yù is almost universally translated as ‘desire’ and I feel it requires some extra investigation just for a point of interest. Yù implies a sense of lack, like a man who has ‘lost his wind’ and therefore has a strong want or desire for breath. So Yù is to want, to long for and to desire.

 

Line 13: 使夫智者不敢為也。-- Shǐ fū zhì zhě bù gǎn wèi yě.

 

Shǐ is the image of a government person, like a diplomat, envoy, officer, deputy, ambassador, emissary, or a government servant. Meanings include: “cause, enable, make, use, employ, send on a mission, order; envoy, messenger, ambassador.”

 

Fū is the picture of a man with head emphasized or with hair held together by a hairpin. Meanings include: “man, male adult, husband, master, a sage, a wise man, a distinguished person.”

 

Zhì shows an aspect of the sun, a dart or arrow and a mouth. Meanings include: “wisdom, knowledge, cleverness, prudence, intelligence, wit, talented, capable, intelligent, clever, wise.”

 

Zhě is a pronoun: “this, that, it, which, what, he who, those who”

 

Bù meaning “no, not; un-; negative prefix”.

 

Gǎn is either the image of a hand holding a stick or two hands holding off an animal that can bite. Meanings include: “dare, to presume, bold, to venture, have courage to

to have the confidence to, to be sure, to be certain, courageous, daring, to make bold.”

 

Wèi is a picture of a hand feeding or leading an elephant, or it could be an image of a mother monkey. Admittedly somewhat ambiguous, the common translation is “to act,” however we also have “to be, to do, to make”.

 

Yě is either the image of a vessel from which something is pouring out, or a snake. It commonly means: “and, also, as well, besides, either, too, still, even.”

 

Line 14: 為無為，-- Wèi wú wèi,

 

Wèi is a picture of a hand feeding or leading an elephant, or it could be an image of a mother monkey. Admittedly somewhat ambiguous, the common translation is “to act,” however we also have “to be, to do, to make”.

 

Wú 無 simply means an absence or negative like the terms “no, not, have no”. It can either be the image of cleared patch of forest, thus negation, or it has also been pictographically linked to shaman dancers holding tassels with my implication of that the tassels become the focus of attention and the dancer “disappears”.

 

Wèi is a picture of a hand feeding or leading an elephant, or it could be an image of a mother monkey. Admittedly somewhat ambiguous, the common translation is “to act,” however we also have “to be, to do, to make”.

 

Line 15: 則無不治。-- Zé wú bù zhì.

 

Zé presents the image of a knife separating cowries shells. Meanings include: “rule, a law, a pattern, standard, list, regulation; grades, result, standard, then, consequently.”

 

Wú 無 simply means an absence or negative like the terms “no, not, have no”. It can either be the image of cleared patch of forest, thus negation, or it has also been pictographically linked to shaman dancers holding tassels with my implication of that the tassels become the focus of attention and the dancer “disappears”.

 

Bù meaning “no, not; un-; negative prefix”.

 

Zhì gives us the image of controlling or harnessing the flow of a river or water. Thus we have the meanings: “control, govern, manage, rule, regulate, harness.”

 

 

Edited December 3, 2010 by Stigweard

[dawei]

  On 12/3/2010 at 12:45 AM, TianShi said:

true:)). but my point is that the phrase is wrongfully translated "wei wu wei" does not mean "to act without acting" , so all the nonsensical explanations of that phrase that people derive from this wrong translations are fantasies.

 

3. Keeping people from rebellion

 

不尚賢，if the wise are not honored

使民不爭；- then people will not mutiny

不貴難得之貨，if luxuries are not made available

使民不為盜；- then people will not act (WEI) as insurgents

不見可欲，if not shown any desirables

使心不亂。-then the hearts will not rebel

是以聖人之治，That is why when the Superhuman governs them,

虛其心，實其腹，he makes their hearts empty - but stomachs full;

弱其志，強其骨。he makes their will weak - but bodies strong.

常使民無知無欲。If it is so constantly - then people will have no (WU) ideas, no (WU) desires

使夫知者不敢為也。then the men with ideas will not dare to act (WEI) also

為無為，則無不治。

If THEIR action (WEI) is made in- (WU) -active (WEI) then there will be no one(WU) disobedient.

May I ask if your chinese?

 

My main issue with the translation is the rather legalistic or should I say a kind of political rulership per the Huainanzi. Words like: mutiny, insurgents, rebel, disobedience are rarely reflected together here even by the strongest 'ruler translators' like Gu Zhengkun. It can have a strong ruler message but yours is a 'half empty' approach.

 

Meaning, we can say that a ruler should embrace a certain way in order to avoid social upheaval, rebellion, and disobedience or we can equally say that his embracing a certain way will restore order, peace, and a return to nature. I tend to think Lao Zi focuses on the half-full approach of the latter way. Your translation stops short of there being any benefit other than to the ruler; it results in subjects who are little more than showing obedience to the throne. I don't feel this is a theme of the book nor this chapter, although it does have some direct governing connotations. Even the word translated "Superhuman". While the word itself is not obscure to most readers, it has no real meaning in context. So I think the choice of words is distracting or slanted towards a very specific position.

 

You mention "ruthless frighteningly effective totalitarian state" and the cultural revolution. I wonder if you feel Lao Zi was a prophet since these do not occur till later, IMO. The start of it might be the unification under the Qin Dynasty which embraced legalism as it's political philosophy. But with the collapse of the Zhou Dynasty and maybe many felt the last good ruler gone (King Wu), the various states were going through a power play for alliance and annexation; Chu, where Lao Zi was from was one of the larger and more powerful states, but I've never seen it described as ""ruthless frighteningly effective totalitarian state". Nonetheless, your comments are interesting to read. Thanks.

[Mal]

  Revealing the Tao Te Ching - Hu Xuezhi said:

Refrain from artificially exalting capable persons,

so that the people shall not strive for fame and credit;

 

Refrain from artificially valuing rare goods,

so that the people shall not steal;

Refrain from presenting things that arouse desires,

so that the people's hearts shall not be disturbed.

 

Lines two to three

Gold jewels and the like are valuable enough. However, when artificially emphasizing their value, people will be lured to take some action in order to gain possession of them. Thus, badness is apt to occur when artificially valuing or devaluing something, due to the disturbance it will cause in people hearts. The same is also true with managing a country <snip> These lines also advise how to discipline the False Heart.

 

Therefor, sages manage things as follows;

Cleansing people's hearts of the abundance of desires,

Replenishing the lower Dantian with Qi,

Making people's hearts become peaceful and tolerant,

thus, strengthening their physical constitution naturally.

Always keeping people innocent of much contriving an desires,

thus the guileful person shall be afraid of acting beyond normal standards.

 

Lines four to nine

In a general sense, these lines show how to manage the subject people in a country and also tell how to cultivate peoples mental and physical existence. <snip> Such a policy aims at using Te to transform the subject people (or False Heart) rather than making a fool out of them.

 

By handling affairs with the principal of following Tao's Natural Way,

everything can be done in a perfect manner.

 

Underline mine.

[Procurator]

Edited December 4, 2010 by TianShi

[Procurator]

  Quote

Revealing the Tao Te Ching - Hu Xuezhi said:

Refrain from artificially exalting capable persons,

so that the people shall not strive for fame and credit;

 

this is a good example of intellectual fraud that this "translators" engage in on every step of the way

 

Refrain from artificially exalting capable persons,

so that the people shall not strive for fame and credit;

 

 

不尚賢，使民不爭 he made up "artificially", and "for fame and credit;"

in one line of 7 original words he made up 3 words that are not in the original, 45%. and it all goes downhill from there. the "translators" just make up stuff as they go along.

[Procurator]

[dawei]

[dawei]

  On 12/4/2010 at 2:26 AM, TianShi said:

see if we dig a bit deeper we will see that its not any old woman, but precisely , its a kneeling woman. why? because women made valuable slaves when a country was "pacified". why a woman and not a man? becouse men in that economy were worthless as slaves, there cost to effciency ratio was too small, so they were slaughtered in bloody sacrifices.

 

those were the realities of the text that folks are trying to turn into a self-help book. amusing.

 

oh, one other thing...

 

AN along with "peace" has a meaning "to press", strange coincedence, no?

It would be good if you provided the word you have chosen to translate as 'pacify'.

 

Is it arbitrary to define a kneeling woman as a valuable slave for this character?

 

Meaning; if you look at the most ancient clan names or surnames, how do we then define the reason for a woman part or radical in most all of them? Is it purely fertility purposes, slave purposes or possibly a nod to a matriarchal society?

 

My only point is that appealing to the meaning of character origin may be somewhat subjective at times.

 

Sorry... I did have a further point. What time period does Lao Zi reflect back to as the one he would like to be restored? Is it the current political theories of his day, or the period where seal characters were increased to account for more words, or the military periods and thus use of some terms, or the past periods of time when life was more simple? Words have a context to their day but thoughts have a context to the past.

 

Edit to add this from my history notes on 女:

The Chinese word for ‘surname’ (Xing, 姓) has two parts: “woman” and “birth”. The most ancient surnames have the female character in it: Yao(姚), Jiang(姜)，Ji(姬)，Ying(嬴)，Gui(妫) , Si(姒).

Edited December 4, 2010 by dawei