[TTC Study] Chapter 3 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Stigweard]

Leading without controlling,

Leaves nothing out of control.

 

Practical Laozi 101.

 

[rene]

Leading without controlling,

Leaves nothing out of control.

 

Practical Laozi 101.

 

 

LOL yeah.

 

So how's that new found freedom workin out for ya?

[Stigweard]

LOL yeah.

 

So how's that new found freedom workin out for ya?

[rene]

 

[Conwaypk]

OKAY! SO...

 

Now that I read through all the related and/or non-related posts

For the future, why not just PM each other about such MOD issues/ideas?

 

 

snip

Without ideals, there is no striving.


Without held treasures, there is no theft.


Without desired visions, there's nothing lacking.

 

Thus...


The Master departs from desires, and is fulfilled.


Curbs enthusiasm, and stays poised.

BIG snip

 

 

I do not agree with that translation at all. I feel this says to accept laziness, to be happy with one's present condition, even when something beneficial lays right in front of you.

 

Everything takes time, so improve, but do not think you must improve NOW (or even CAN improve NOW). Without goals and desires we can never progress, and progression is what allows humans to advance individually and societally. Progress is.

 

I offer the translation I am using, as usual, with my thoughts and feelings because, TianShi, the TTC affects my life personally, no matter whom or what it was originally written for.

 

Putting a value on status

will cause people to compete

Hoarding treasure

will turn them into thieves

Showing off possessions

will disturb their daily lives

 

Thus the Sage rules

by stilling minds and opening hearts

by filling bellies and strengthening bones

He shows people how to be simple

and live without desires

To be content

and not look for other ways

With the people so pure

Who could trick them?

What clever ideas could lead them astray?

 

When action is pure and selfless

everything settles into its own perfect place

 

Desires are to be avoided, but physical materialism, not spiritual endeavors. I must strive for a closer relationship with God, I desire this, to show my thanks and love for the life God has allowed me to have.

 

When we act out of selfish reasons, our reward will not be as it should. When I act for selfish reasons, bad things happens. When I act to truly help another, I see around me many signs telling me that because of my good works, good works will happen to me.

 

This verse tells me to care about the basic and bare necessitites of life: food, clothing, shelter, water. But also, to have interests and hobbies, but not TOO many. To not overload myself with the outside world, but to have a taste of it so that I may experience life in a content manner.

 

But I am only content through the fulfillment of my desires, my specific goals, which take time, and which should not be overcrowded but reasoned with and understood that I am Human, and being Human is my greatest strength.

 

Do not show off. But also, remember, it is only showing off if YOU cannot do it. The point is, act out of necessity, not out of negative energy.

 

What is the purpose of having strong bones if your always full with food, unable to move? Again, moderation. Eat, but only out of necessity. Work, and train, and develop, but only out of necessity (even if that necessity is joy...would you rather be happy or sad?) So do what makes you happy, but in moderation.

 

When one is content, they will easily be able to see traps being laid for them. Scams and false hopes will easily be avoided because the person already has what he/she is looking for, and the only way to fulfill what we are looking for is by action..by going out and doing it...within reason and moderation.

 

Enlightenment comes not from stilling the mind or the sitting without moving, but from action. Action leads to enlightenment, not inaction. I know, I'm a freerunner, and I claim enlightenment through the vision Freerunning affords one's self. If you are not a freerunner, then you lack this vision. But there is no ONE way, so perhaps you too are enlightened. Freerunning is just another path: that of necessary action, whether out of joy or expression or to help another, we as freerunners do not show off and we do not pride ourselves, we humble ourselves.

 

This verse is excellent in saying: Do what you need to do to be happy, and to stay happy, in moderation, and to not flaunt your happiness to another, but help them to achieve their happiness as well.

[dawei]

OKAY! SO...

 

Now that I read through all the related and/or non-related posts

For the future, why not just PM each other about such MOD issues/ideas?

 

 

 

 

 

I do not agree with that translation at all. I feel this says to accept laziness, to be happy with one's present condition, even when something beneficial lays right in front of you.

 

Everything takes time, so improve, but do not think you must improve NOW (or even CAN improve NOW). Without goals and desires we can never progress, and progression is what allows humans to advance individually and societally. Progress is.

 

I offer the translation I am using, as usual, with my thoughts and feelings because, TianShi, the TTC affects my life personally, no matter whom or what it was originally written for.

 

Putting a value on status

will cause people to compete

Hoarding treasure

will turn them into thieves

Showing off possessions

will disturb their daily lives

 

Thus the Sage rules

by stilling minds and opening hearts

by filling bellies and strengthening bones

He shows people how to be simple

and live without desires

To be content

and not look for other ways

With the people so pure

Who could trick them?

What clever ideas could lead them astray?

 

When action is pure and selfless

everything settles into its own perfect place

 

Desires are to be avoided, but physical materialism, not spiritual endeavors. I must strive for a closer relationship with God, I desire this, to show my thanks and love for the life God has allowed me to have.

 

When we act out of selfish reasons, our reward will not be as it should. When I act for selfish reasons, bad things happens. When I act to truly help another, I see around me many signs telling me that because of my good works, good works will happen to me.

 

This verse tells me to care about the basic and bare necessitites of life: food, clothing, shelter, water. But also, to have interests and hobbies, but not TOO many. To not overload myself with the outside world, but to have a taste of it so that I may experience life in a content manner.

 

But I am only content through the fulfillment of my desires, my specific goals, which take time, and which should not be overcrowded but reasoned with and understood that I am Human, and being Human is my greatest strength.

 

Do not show off. But also, remember, it is only showing off if YOU cannot do it. The point is, act out of necessity, not out of negative energy.

 

What is the purpose of having strong bones if your always full with food, unable to move? Again, moderation. Eat, but only out of necessity. Work, and train, and develop, but only out of necessity (even if that necessity is joy...would you rather be happy or sad?) So do what makes you happy, but in moderation.

 

When one is content, they will easily be able to see traps being laid for them. Scams and false hopes will easily be avoided because the person already has what he/she is looking for, and the only way to fulfill what we are looking for is by action..by going out and doing it...within reason and moderation.

 

Enlightenment comes not from stilling the mind or the sitting without moving, but from action. Action leads to enlightenment, not inaction. I know, I'm a freerunner, and I claim enlightenment through the vision Freerunning affords one's self. If you are not a freerunner, then you lack this vision. But there is no ONE way, so perhaps you too are enlightened. Freerunning is just another path: that of necessary action, whether out of joy or expression or to help another, we as freerunners do not show off and we do not pride ourselves, we humble ourselves.

 

This verse is excellent in saying: Do what you need to do to be happy, and to stay happy, in moderation, and to not flaunt your happiness to another, but help them to achieve their happiness as well.

1. Your coming into this post 3 months later than the last post. it is possible some PMs occurred in that time. Don't assume or dictate too much 3 months later... common sense is good to embrace.

2. Quote your version. Thanks

3. Your moralistic action instead of intuitive stillness is just western god imposed on eastern ways. You can impose all you want but at some point you will be much better to drop it all and just listen as if you have never been told by another. That is actually close to impossible. But when you do it, you'll find someting very, very new.

4. Realize the west wants action. The east wants action but as non-action. If you want to just live the westerner way, you free to do so. But if you want to just impose western thought on eastern concepts, your stuck in dogma.

[Conwaypk]

1. Pointing out that I had to read through all those unrelated-or-not posts, which takes a lot of time

 

2. "Tao Te Ching, The Definitive Definition" by Jonathon Star (sorry about not quoting it)

 

3. I'm not seeing where in-action as action over non-action as action is BETTER or more beneficial to the individual, especially specifically to me.

 

4. I feel like I can agree with that. being stuck in dogma. But dogma taken from any and all labels when and where necessary, which is whati have learned thus far from Taoism. Use what works, throw away what doesn't.

[Marblehead]

Never trust anyone who claims they have the definitive answer. Don't even trust me if I ever make such a claim.

[Conwaypk]

Never trust anyone who claims they have the definitive answer. Don't even trust me if I ever make such a claim.

 

Hmm..are you talking about in general? I have made no such claim, and won't, because I don't think there is a definitive answwer for anything, ever.

 

If you would like, check this site out: http://www.parkourgenerations.com and read up on the articles about what parkour vision is. It's not just me who says this changes a person's literal vision.

[Marblehead]

Hmm..are you talking about in general? I have made no such claim, and won't, because I don't think there is a definitive answwer for anything, ever.

 

If you would like, check this site out: http://www.parkourgenerations.com and read up on the articles about what parkour vision is. It's not just me who says this changes a person's literal vision.

 

Of course I was not talking about you. I was talking about this:

 

2. "Tao Te Ching, The Definitive Definition" by Jonathon Star

 

I did go to the site but got the home page. I am a slow reader and just don't have time to look at all the articles at a site without knowing what the heck I am looking for or supposed to pay attention to.

 

If you point out one article that you think explains what you are pointing at I will at least scan it. Okay?

Edited March 21, 2011 by Marblehead

[Conwaypk]

Of course I was not talking about you. I was talking about this:

 

2. "Tao Te Ching, The Definitive Definition" by Jonathon Star

 

I did go to the site but got the home page. I am a slow reader and just don't have time to look at all the articles at a site without knowing what the heck I am looking for or supposed to pay attention to.

 

If you point out one article that you think explains what you are pointing at I will at least scan it. Okay?

 

Haha of course, sir (or ma'am?). I didn't expect you to go and read everything, just backing up my claim.

 

By definitive edition I think it means the translation, not the essence. It has every character and what it could possibly mean

[Marblehead]

Haha of course, sir (or ma'am?). I didn't expect you to go and read everything, just backing up my claim.

 

Yeah. Fortunately I have better things to do with my life.

 

By definitive edition I think it means the translation, not the essence. It has every character and what it could possibly mean

 

I haven't read that translation (that I can recall) but I am sure it is a good one.

 

Just wanted to point out that we shouldn't blindly accept another's opinion of something just because they say they possess the "Truth".

[Conwaypk]

Yeah. Fortunately I have better things to do with my life.

 

 

 

I haven't read that translation (that I can recall) but I am sure it is a good one.

 

Just wanted to point out that we shouldn't blindly accept another's opinion of something just because they say they possess the "Truth".

 

Agreed.

[Marblehead]

Agreed.

 

Well, that was a discussion stopper. Hehehe.

[SageMD]

OK, well, I know I am way late on this thread but, I would like to see if I am understanding the meaning right. My first problem is that there are millions of translations/perceptions to the original poem and its lost its rhythm. My second problem is that I have a language disorder so I have to pull it from my own warped way of understanding the words. You can let me know if my intuition is within the ballpark.

 

summery of meaning (to me):

 

Creating a distinction of great worth or value for one person, place or thing, over an other creates competition, unhappiness, desire, greed, etc. (within the minds and hearts of the people) which results in strife, stealing and misdirected hearts/minds.

 

So a wise one will help people by

"by emptying people's minds

and filling their cores,

by weakening their ambition

and toughening their resolve.

He helps people lose everything

they know, everything they desire,

and creates confusion

in those who think that they know."

 

Be neutral and see all things as equal and everything will be in harmony.

 

Quoted part from: http://academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/core9/phalsall/texts/taote-v3.html#3

Edited March 30, 2011 by SageMD

[Marblehead]

OK, well, I know I am way late on this thread but, ...

 

No problem. Hopefully other members will be as curious as you are and ask questions concerning the various chapters. Eventually all the chapters will be posted and they will offer the opportunity for anyone to question or comment on any of them at any time.

 

I believe that you have a good understanding of the concept being presented in the chapter. However, we must keep in mind the time we live in now. Things are different today than they were 2500 years ago. So we take the concept and apply it to today's realities.

[SageMD]

Things are different today than they were 2500 years ago. So we take the concept and apply it to today's realities.

 

indeed ...

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 3

1. 不尚賢，

2. 使民不爭。

3. 不貴難得之貨，

4. 使民不為盜。

5. 不見可欲，

6. 使民心不亂。

7. 是以聖人之治，

8. 虛其心，

9. 實其腹，

10.弱其志，

11.強其骨；

12.常使民無知無欲，

13.使夫智者不敢為也。

14.為無為，

15.則無不治。

 

Revision 3-1

1. Dejectedly soliciting intelligentsia,

2. Discourage people from striving.

3. Not to value hard to obtained goods,

4. Prevent people from being thieves.

5. Not being seen desirable,

6. People won't become perturbed.

7. With sagacious ruling,

8. Emptied one's heart,

9. Solidified one's belly,

10. Weaken one's volition,

11. Strengthen one's bone,

12. Always keeping the people innocent without desire,

13. Presumptuous people cannot commit their acts.

14. Trailing to a natural path,

15. Thus nothing that couldn't be handled.

Edited May 31, 2011 by ChiDragon

[stan herman]

 

Revision 3-1

1. Dejectedly soliciting intelligentsia,

2. Discourage people from striving.

3. Not to value hard to obtained goods,

4. Prevent people from being thieves.

5. Not being seen desirable,

6. People won't become perturbed.

7. With sagacious ruling,

8. Emptied one's heart,

9. Solidified one's belly,

10. Weaken one's volition,

11. Strengthen one's bone,

12. Always keeping the people innocent without desire,

13. Presumptuous people cannot commit their acts.

14. Trailing to a natural path,

15. Thus nothing that couldn't be handled.

 

I like the 'terseness'. At the same time this is not one of my favorite verses. It seems to me so totally out of touch with our era. Here's an other version I find more applicable. Just a matter of taste and opinion, I suppose.

 

 

3. It is better not to overpraise people for capable performance, but rather to think of capable performance as nothing special. Whether as a parent or leader, encouraging others to compete for your favorable recognition is a limiting tactic. It is best for a parent or a leader to provide an environment that allows people to do what they are best able to do in the best ways they can, and to help excellence become natural.

 

A sound leader concentrates on producing what is required, simplifying issues, providing well, but not overwell, for her people, and clearing their minds of prejudices and old habits that are not useful. The best leaders and parents perform these functions in an entertaining rather than a solemn way.

[ChiDragon]

Yes, I see it as a difference between translation and interpretation or principle and application or the philosophies of the West and the East.

[Marblehead]

Yes, this chapter speaks to not encouraging negative virtues (vices) and your translation speak well to it.

 

It's not saying tha we should not become all tha we can be but rather to not desire things that are not attainable using means that do not conflict with others' goals.

[stan herman]

Yes, I see it as a difference between translation and interpretation or principle and application or the philosophies of the West and the East.

 

Chi, yes it is interpretation. My understanding is that all translations of the characters are interpretive to some degree. When you explain this as a difference in Eastern vs Western philosophy, I wonder if that rests more on the differences in era than region? If one considers what is happening in China today--at the ruling level and trends among the rising middle class--there is great discomfort among the former, as the latter grow increasingly discontent with the totalitarian requirements on them for unquestioning subservience (see lines 2 - 12).

Edited June 1, 2011 by stan herman

[ChiDragon]

Chi, yes it is interpretation. My understanding is that all translations of the characters are interpretive to some degree. When you explain this as a difference in Eastern vs Western philosophy, I wonder if that rests more on the differences in era than region? If one considers what is happening in China today--at the ruling level and trends among the rising middle class--there is great discomfort among the former, as the latter grow increasingly discontent with the totalitarian requirements on them for unquestioning subservience (see lines 2 - 12).

 

Stan...

Natives do not have the burden to translate the classic text but just do the interpretation. However, there will be problems if the character were translated into another language. It will cause mistranslation; from the mistranslation will cause misinterpretation. Even the translation was correct, it can still be misinterpreted due to some cultural differences in philosophy.

 

First of all, when I said this as a difference in Eastern vs Western philosophy, I meant the interpretation between my translation and your interpretation. Anyway, to answer your question, the Tao Te Ching was written for all eras and regions. However, LaoTze's idea was too idealistic and too practical. His ideals in the Tao Ta Ching was adapted in the Han dynasty and works well. However, it didn't work too well in other era or region because the rulers did not want to follow the principles in the Tao Te Ching.

[dust]

不上賢使民不爭 Without glorifying the gifted, the people will not contend;

不貴難得之貨使民不為盜 Without treasuring rare things, the people will not steal;

不見可欲使民不亂 Without desire, the people will not rebel.

是以聖人之治也 Therefore the wise man rules by

虛亓心 Emptying their hearts,

實亓腹 Filling their bellies,

弱亓志 Weakening their ambitions,

強亓骨 And strengthening their bones,

恆使民无知无欲也 Until the people have no knowledge and no desires,

使夫知不敢弗為而已 And those with knowledge dare not act;

則无不治矣 In this way, all will be in order

 

 

Again, posting my own translation after scanning the thread. It seems that the things I wanted to touch on have been touched on, actually, but it was all 2 or 3 years ago, and I'm trying to learn by doing, so...

 

 

不見可欲使民不亂 Without desire, the people will not rebel

 

欲 -- 谷 + 欠 = "gaping" need > need > desire

亂 -- control > anarchy > confusion

 

"Anarchy" or "rebellion" seemed truer to the original meaning of 亂, so that's how I've got it.

 

I also had it as "Do not show them hope, and the people will not rebel", but thought it rather harsh (besides the fact that 欲 doesn't precisely mean hope)...

...but in one way, it does make sense:

 

If the people have no desires, they will not need to rebel. But how does the ruler make sure they don't desire? By making sure there's nothing to desire -- and without anything to desire, without any knowledge that there might be more to life, what kind of "hope" can one have?

[Marblehead]

I had to get Henricks off the shelf for comparison.

 

A rather nice translation you did there. The concepts were expressed nicely. Yes, "hope" would have been an incorrect word to use.

 

Actually, what we are looking for here is an utopian communistic society. That has been tried numerous times and it just doesn't work in practice. Sure, in theory it should work. But that concept "desires" keeps getting in the way. Some always want more than others have.

 

And in this chapter we need to differentiate between the "knowledge" Lao Tzu and especially Chuang Tzu and wisdom.