[TTC Study] Chapter 3 of the Tao Teh Ching

[dust]

Utopian communistic society...yes. I'd love to find one...

 

Just looking at a few translations, it seems more sinister than that:

 

• In this way he will cause the people to remain without knowledge and without desire, and prevent the knowing ones from any ado
• If men lack knowledge and desire, then clever people will not try to interfere
• Leads people Away from knowing and wanting; Deters those who know too much From going too far
• He constantly causes the people to be without knowledge and without desires. If he can bring it about that those with knowledge simply do not dare to act...

 

We get a fairly clear message: keep the people stupid, and those you can't keep stupid, keep silent. Part of me agrees that this would be an easy way to rule, but the individualistic Westerner in me thinks it sounds less like a communist utopia and more like the kind of totalitarian police state that Mao and his successors have been in charge of for the last 65 years...

[dawei]

不見可欲使民不亂 Without desire, the people will not rebel

 

IMO, it should read as: Do not look upon desirable items and people will avoid discomfort [of the heart].

[Taoist Texts]

不上賢使民不爭 Without glorifying the gifted, the people will not contend;

不貴難得之貨使民不為盜 Without treasuring rare things, the people will not steal;

不見可欲使民不亂 Without desire, the people will not rebel.

是以聖人之治也 Therefore the wise man rules by

虛亓心 Emptying their hearts,

實亓腹 Filling their bellies,

弱亓志 Weakening their ambitions,

強亓骨 And strengthening their bones,

恆使民无知无欲也 Until the people have no knowledge and no desires,

使夫知不敢弗為而已 And those with knowledge dare not act;

則无不治矣 In this way, all will be in order

 

 

Again, posting my own translation after scanning the thread. It seems that the things I wanted to touch on have been touched on, actually, but it was all 2 or 3 years ago, and I'm trying to learn by doing, so...

 

 

If the people have no desires, they will not need to rebel. But how does the ruler make sure they don't desire? By making sure there's nothing to desire -- and without anything to desire, without any knowledge that there might be more to life, what kind of "hope" can one have?

 

Technically, yours is a pretty good translation, but...the questions you pose are even better. All translators draw a picture of a totalitarian dark place where rulers take away the playthings from the dumb masses, overlooking the fact that there are two third-person actors in this passage - the people and their rulers. If the rulers take away the shiny toys from the people that would be action and Lao knows better than that. So 'they' 其 refers not to the people but to the rulers themselves.

 

是以聖人之治，虛其心，實其腹，弱其志，強其骨。常使民無知無欲。使夫知者不敢為也。為無為，則無不治。

 

 

"So when the sages govern - they empty their own hearts, fill their own bellies, weaken their own ambitions, sthengthen their own bones. If they conduct themselves like this always, then the people would not know what to desire...Do this non-action and there will be nothing to govern"

 

Utopian communistic society...yes. I'd love to find one...

The Amish;)

Edited September 3, 2014 by Taoist Texts

[woodcarver]

laws create crime

[Michael Sternbach]

Daoism is concerned with liberating the individual from social conventions imposed upon it and lead it back to its true inherent nature. Moreover, Lao-tzu would like to see a self-governed society based on its principles. So to find instructions for Machiavellian demagogues in the TTC would be like finding recipes for meat dishes in a vegetarian cookbook. Therefore, I interpret this chapter as in fact providing antitheses to the cynical "philosophy" that seeks to control people by keeping them in a constant state of unrest and dumbness (never allowing them to stop to think).

 

(Translated by Robert Henricks- Note this translation is of an older version of the Tao Teh Ching and may differ from other translations)

1. By not elevating the worthy, you bring it about that people will not compete.

 

Antithesis to:

 

"Set other-directed high standards and idealize suitable persons to serve as examples for them, so the people will busy themselves trying to follow after them, making themselves submissive and self-sacrificing while constantly feeling inadequate and being in competition with each other."

 

2. By not valuing goods that are hard to obtain, you bring it about that people will not act like thieves.

 

Antithesis to:

 

"Make sure that people desire things they basically wouldn't need so they will materially benefit the leading elite while exploiting each other, nature etc - thus "act like thieves."

 

3. By not displaying the desirable you bring it about that people will not be confused.

 

Antithesis to:

 

"Convince people to fancy all kinds of things, so they will get confused as to what would really be of value to them (i.e. go into debt, requiring them to stay committed to the self-perpetuating system)."

 

4. Therefore, in the government of the Sage:

 

The way the non-egotistical wise would "rule" the world (rather: let it rule itself).

 

5. He empties their minds,

 

He frees them from other-directed goals by enlightening them to their innate nature.

 

6. And fills their bellies.

 

He makes sure that what they need gets provided in ways consistent with the Dao.

 

7. Weakens their ambition,

 

Counteracts artificial ambitions.

 

8. And strengthens their bones.

 

Helps them to attain health and longevity by avoiding those detrimental ambitions. (Just think of the countless stress-related diseases nowadays.)

 

9. He constantly causes the people to be without knowledge and without desires.

 

Of the aforesaid kind.

 

10. If he can bring it about that those with knowledge simply do not dare to act,

 

Those with harmful knowledge (regarding mass manipulation, etc) are not supposed to act on it.

 

11. Then there is nothing that will not be in order.

 

Everything will then find its natural order.

[Marblehead]

Just looking at a few translations, it seems more sinister than that:

 

We get a fairly clear message: keep the people stupid, and those you can't keep stupid, keep silent. Part of me agrees that this would be an easy way to rule, but the individualistic Westerner in me thinks it sounds less like a communist utopia and more like the kind of totalitarian police state that Mao and his successors have been in charge of for the last 65 years...

I really wish I could argue against what you said here but I can't. I struggled with this the first few translations of the TTC I read. But I was put at ease after reading Chuang Tzu. Chuang Tzu would never have had any of that shit. Afterall, he was an anarchist.

 

Many others have criticized this chapter just as you have. And yes, IMO it does deserve criticism. I think Chapter 80 expressed these concepts so much better.

[dust]

Interesting responses. Maybe it's a chapter I'll have to come back to.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

....

 

Well said.

 

I believe this chapter is supposed to be read as a continuation or part of chapter two.

[Michael Sternbach]

Well said.

 

I believe this chapter is supposed to be read as a continuation or part of chapter two.

 

Glad you like my interpretation.

 

Yours is an interesting consideration.

[dust]

Interesting responses. Maybe it's a chapter I'll have to come back to.

 

I'd forgotten about this!

 

TT... in the other thread you said I had my interpretation backwards: looks like it's the same disagreement 4 months later!

 

We could go back and forth all day, and in the end there's no way to prove who 其 is referring to -- the ruler or the ruled. So I don't have much hope that we'll come to an agreement...

 

I'll just point out a couple of thoughts I've had since last time we discussed this:

 

 

 

 

不尚賢，使民不爭；不貴難得之貨，使民不為盜；不見可欲，使心不亂。是以聖人之治，虛其心，實其腹，弱其志，強其骨。常使民無知無欲。使夫知者不敢為也。為無為，則無不治

 

 

He is clearly talking about, again, ruling the masses. By suggesting that one should 使 cause the people to stop fighting over rare things and stealing from each other, he is suggesting interfering. By suggesting that a ruler does anything at all -- by even acknowledging that there is a ruler -- he is acknowledging that some interference will occur.

 

Why, in the middle, would he suddenly start talking about feeding himself and weakening his own ambition? And then, right after that, talk yet again about 使民無知無欲 causing the people to have no knowledge and no desire

 

Also, to wei wuwei can be interpreted as to force non-forcing, or enact non-action

[dawei]

"So when the sages govern - they empty their own hearts, fill their own bellies, weaken their own ambitions, sthengthen their own bones. If they conduct themselves like this always, then the people would not know what to desire...Do this non-action and there will be nothing to govern"

 

When this is translated as to the masses, then when one asks "how?"... your translation suggests the Way; it starts with the ruler.

[Taoist Texts]

... your translation suggests the Way; it starts with the ruler.

Excellent Dawei, excellent indeed. Yes it does.

 

or as Kong-zi, the ever true taoist says:

 

季康子問政於孔子曰：「如殺無道，以就有道，何如？」孔子對曰：「子為政，焉用殺？子欲善，而民善矣。君子之德風，小人之德草。草上之風，必偃。

 

You want to be good, and the people will be good. King's De is wind and the peoples De is grass. Wind on the grass - the grass will bend with it.

 

《顏淵 - Yan Yuan》

[dust]

Wow.

 

Sorry for the bluntness, but... if you want an honest, logical, fruitful discussion, I think you need to stop selectively ignoring things you don't like.

 

What you're saying:

 

1. Doesn't make sense. A ruler who hides himself from the masses also leads by example? How? How does this work????

 

2. Is not supported by the text.

 

 

常使民無知無欲

Constantly makes the people without knowledge and without desire

 

 

Why, in the middle, would he suddenly start talking about feeding himself and weakening his own ambition? And then, right after that, talk yet again about 使民無知無欲 causing the people to have no knowledge and no desire

[Taoist Texts]

I'd forgotten about this!

 

TT... in the other thread you said I had my interpretation backwards: looks like it's the same disagreement 4 months later!

 

We could go back and forth all day, and in the end there's no way to prove who 其 is referring to -- the ruler or the ruled. So I don't have much hope that we'll come to an agreement...

 

I'll just point out a couple of thoughts I've had since last time we discussed this:

He is clearly talking about, again, ruling the masses. By suggesting that one should 使 cause the people to stop fighting over rare things and stealing from each other, he is suggesting interfering. By suggesting that a ruler does anything at all -- by even acknowledging that there is a ruler -- he is acknowledging that some interference will occur.

 

Why, in the middle, would he suddenly start talking about feeding himself and weakening his own ambition? And then, right after that, talk yet again about 使民無知無欲 causing the people to have no knowledge and no desire

 

Also, to wei wuwei can be interpreted as to force non-forcing, or enact non-action

Your's is a correct approach - analysing this statement as a three part essay, yet you start with a wrong assumption reading an actor into the first part. There is no 'one should' there.

 

1. 不尚賢，使民不爭；不貴難得之貨，使民不為盜；不見可欲，使心不亂。

2. 是以聖人之治，虛其心，實其腹，弱其志，強其骨。

3. 常使民無知無欲。使夫¹知者不敢為也。為無為，則無不治。

 

 

(1) is a statement of a fact of human nature: no cunning - no strife; no valuables - no thieving; no desirbles - no trouble.

(2) is how to make it so

(3) is the result 常使 'if constantly so' Remember the constant Dao in chpt 1? 為無為 act without action, lead by example. Or as Kongzi- said to the king above

 

季康子問政於孔子曰：「如殺無道，以就有道，何如？」孔子對曰：「子為政，焉用殺？子欲善，而民善矣.

 

 

Ji Kang asked Confucius about government, saying, "What do you say to killing the unprincipled for the good of the principled?" Confucius replied, "Sir, in carrying on your government, why should you use killing at all? Let your evinced desires be for what is good, and the people will be good.

[Taoist Texts]

Wow.

 

Sorry for the bluntness, but... if you want an honest, logical, fruitful discussion, I think you need to stop selectively ignoring things you don't like.

no problemo

What you're saying:

 

1. Doesn't make sense. A ruler who hides himself from the masses also leads by example? How? How does this work????

A. The chain of command is a pyramid king on top - masses below no day-light in between.

 

 

B. De - De is a magical force that binds the nation together

 

 

 

2. Is not supported by the text.

 

 

常使民無知無欲

Constantly makes the people without knowledge and without desire

I believe i addressed that in the previous post

[Taoist Texts]

孟子告齊宣王曰：「君之視臣如手足，則臣視君如腹心；君之視臣如犬馬，則臣視君如國人；君之視臣如土芥，則臣視君如寇讎。」

 

Mencius said to the king Xuan of Qi, 'When the prince regards his ministers as his hands and feet, his ministers regard their prince as their belly and heart; when he regards them as his dogs and horses, they regard him as another man; when he regards them as the ground or as grass, they regard him as a robber and an enemy.

 

《孟子 - Mengzi》 [Warring States (475 BC - 221 BC)] English translation: James Legge

[dust]

I believe i addressed that in the previous post

 

Twas a good answer, but I still think that 使 + 民 = make/cause the people

 

Sorry again for the obnoxious response before. Thinking I know it all...

[Taoist Texts]

Twas a good answer, but I still think that 使 + 民 = make/cause the people

 

Sorry again for the obnoxious response before. Thinking I know it all...

 

hey look Dusty is back. welcome back Dusty!

[Taoist Texts]

Twas a good answer, but I still think that 使 + 民 = make/cause the people

 

I totally agree thats what it says.

[ChiDragon]

I totally agree thats what it says.

 

Twas a good answer, but I still think that 使 + 民 = make/cause the people

 

Sorry again for the obnoxious response before. Thinking I know it all...

使: to make it happen; let it happen

 

I am glad that we have some agreements in our discussions for a change. Finally. we have come to our senses.

 

 

Edited January 14, 2015 by ChiDragon

[dust]

hey look Dusty is back. welcome back Dusty!

 

That all? No fanfare? No red carpet?

 

[Marblehead]

That all? No fanfare? No red carpet?

 

I didn't even realize that you were gone.

[Taoist Texts]

That all? No fanfare? No red carpet?

 

we are all still hangover from the x-mas carousing so hair of the dog all around and pick a chapter

 

[dust]

I didn't even realize that you were gone.