Forgiving others and the Tao Teh Ching

[Alfred E]

I've been thinking about this alot lately, what part forgiveness plays in my life and what part it should play. Since I like to think of myself as someone who tries to follow the Tao, I thought I might take a look at what the Tao Teh Ching says about this topic to see if I can undestand it more clearly. I would like to share this examination with you, so that if you have any insight, you might share it for the benefit of everyone else.

 

First off, there was a time when I thought Justice should prevale, that somehow, allowing the guilty to walk was not a part of the Tao. In that light it was quite a shock to me when I was rereading the Tao Teh Ching a few years back and ran across this passage at the end of Chapter 62 (tr. Wu),

 

"Why did the ancients prize the Tao?

Is it not because by virtue of it he who seeks finds,

And the guilty are forgiven?

That is why it is such a treasure to the world."

 

Before reading these lines, I can't honestly say I didn't believe that forgiveness wasn't implied, but the fact that having read the Tao Teh Ching for fifteen years, I had passed over something that seems directly relevant to the forgiving others caused me to pause, why did I pass over something that seemed so relevant, or at least seemed directly relevant, but at the same time was a bit vague.

 

Are the guilty forgiven by those who have found the Tao? Are the guilty forgiven by the Tao? Who are the guilty forgiven by? Puzzling questions indeed. After a bit of pondering I examined the sentence more clerely and I realize that what they're actually talking about is the first statement, that the guilty are forgiven by those who have found the Tao. Now this makes more sense when one examines other comments made regarding the idea of forgiveness, or more directly, mercy.

 

The Tao Teh Ching directly mentions mercy in only one place, Chapter 67. In that chapter it refers to it as the first jewel. Although it doesn't go into much discussion about mercy, we can look at the modern day definition and gather some understanding about the exact meaning of the word. Meriam-Webster defines mercy as the following:

 

1 a : compassion or forbearance shown especially to an offender or to one subject to one's power; also : lenient or compassionate treatment <begged for mercy> b : imprisonment rather than death imposed as penalty for first-degree murder

2 a : a blessing that is an act of divine favor or compassion b : a fortunate circumstance <it was a mercy they found her before she froze>

3: compassionate treatment of those in distress <works of mercy among the poor>

 

The interesting definitions that seem relevant to the topic at hand are those that refer to showing compassion to those who are suffering or have done wrong. In that light, mercy is showing forgiveness to those who deserve it and don't. So if we know the Tao, one would assume that we would forgive others for the wrongs they've done.

 

Perhaps the most confusing part of all of this is that it never implicitly explains the purpose of forgiveness, there is never any exact reason, rather it's just assumed if one knows the Tao, they will be merciful. However, as I said at the beginning, most people who read the Tao Teh Ching, even if they skip those two chapters, still tend to believe that the Tao Teh Ching advocates forgiving others.

 

I think part of the reason why I passed over it for so long was that I didn't want to have to forgive those people who had hurt me in my past, it was easier to just keep on blaming them, or at least it seemed so. When I realized what the Tao Teh Ching had to say about this concept, a single thought came to my mind, if I know the Tao, then why am I not showing mercy or forgiving others? Why am I clinging to old bitterness and not allowing wounds to mend?

 

One thing the Tao talks about, perhaps indirectly is acceptance, that within every bad action there is some good, just as within every good action there is some bad. No one is a good man or bad man, rather we are all men, with the same frailities and capacity for good or bad. If someone does something wrong and we can see that we are just as capable of doing something wrong, then how can we honestly not forgive that person for doing that? On an even deeper level, one can look at the nature or man, those things that drive us to do what we do, those parts we are supposed to get to know as Taoists and realize we're not as good as we think we are, and even moreso, that there are people that are probably justified in not forgiving us, but that's the catch. The Tao isn't about justice or justification, but rather the natural way and perhaps Lao Tzu was more aware of the idea of mercy in nature than we are. Regardless, when one practices forgiveness, there is a burden that seems to be lifted from them, a freedom from that weight that holds on to them.

 

After all, if we are to diminish all desires, shouldn't the desire for revenge, or anger directed at another person be diminished as well?

 

Well I'm not sure what else there is to say. If you disagree please feel free to mention it. I look forward to hearing other people's insights.

 

Aaron

The only one that can forgive you is You.

All else is religious B.S.

Think about it.

[Birch]

Woah Xeno, that's some majorly incredible evil madness!

 

My take is that forgiveness is best used in favour of oneself first. No, no point in continuing to ruin one's own life (or sometimes those of others in the process) due to someone else's actions.

 

My other idea is that a close examination of why you would or would not tell this person (I can't even say "mother") you have forgiven them is in order. If it's to satisfy some ideal of yourself as an ever forgiving or "good" person then I'd swing with a no. If it's what you feel deep in your heart, I'd swing with a yes.

 

Personal opinion.

[Aaron]

The only one that can forgive you is You.

All else is religious B.S.

Think about it.

 

If that works for you, then keep working it.

 

Aaron

[Aaron]

I think Wu's translation takes some liberty.

 

Here is what I think is a proper rendering by Rudolf Wagner's study of Wang Bi:

"If [the good ones] strive by means of it, they achieve what they strive for.

If [the not good ones] avoid [punishment] by means of it [the Way], they manage to avoid it."

 

Wang Bi says: "There is nothing that is [this Way] does not bring about. That is why it is [most] valued in All Under Heaven."

 

This is a picture of the 'impartiality' of the Way. No favoritism. If there is a word, maybe I say what "is". There is neither good nor bad; neither praise nor punishment; neither acceptance nor forgiveness;

 

What does that really mean???

 

THAT WHAT MANIFESTS IS: good and bad; praise and punishment; acceptance and forgiveness.

 

I have never taken notice of this chapter section but I will say that it fits well with the general theme of the book and is quite profound.

 

What is the process of the Great Way? How do we came into this world and how will we go out? In-between, how will this existence of the ten thousand things treat us and make us feel?

 

That is each person's journey of 1,000 miles which begins with a single step. Lao Zi did not mention obstacles along the way but the mere mention of this journey may be all he could muster to tell us.

 

 

Hello Dawei,

 

Hmm... so there's no need for forgiveness. That's good to know, all this time I could've been festerning over old wounds. All I really need to do is be impartial. I'm being sarcastic by the way. I can't see how impartiality is enough in this instance. What are your feelings about anger or mercy?

 

Something that I'm beginning to realize is that, even though certain sections of the Tao Teh Ching aren't present in the oldest texts, I feel that in a way the oldest texts are incomplete, as if there's something missing from them. Perhaps the later versions that came along were intending to fill that void?

 

Aaron

Edited December 1, 2010 by Twinner

[Sloppy Zhang]

Hello Dawei,

 

Hmm... so there's no need for forgiveness. That's good to know, all this time I could've been festerning over old wounds. All I really need to do is be impartial. I'm being sarcastic by the way. I can't see how impartiality is enough in this instance. What are your feelings about anger or mercy?

 

Not speaking for Dawei here...

 

I don't know that it's the individual person that is being impartial, but it's the Tao that is being impartial.

 

"If [the good ones] strive by means of it, they achieve what they strive for.

If [the not good ones] avoid [punishment] by means of it [the Way], they manage to avoid it."

 

If you want to use the Tao to move towards something "good" (not quite sure of the actual wording, "good" carries lots of connotations, so don't get too hung up on the value assessment), then the Tao will allow you to achieve something "good."

 

If you want to use the Tao to move towards something "not good" (again, trying to avoid value judgments here, just think of it is varying concepts/goals), then the Tao will allow you to achieve something "not good".

 

So, I dunno that YOU need to be a robot. Just the Tao, the means by which someone can achieve something, is going to be impartial to the person ("good" and "not good") and what their goals are ("good" and "not good").

 

At least, that's how I'm reading this part of a rather interesting translation

 

Something that I'm beginning to realize is that, even though certain sections of the Tao Teh Ching aren't present in the oldest texts, I feel that in a way the oldest texts are incomplete, as if there's something missing from them. Perhaps the later versions that came along were intending to fill that void?

 

I'd be extremely careful with thoughts like this.

 

Many times we are only looking for the things we want (not necessarily a bad thing). And sometimes, when we don't find it, we put it there for us to find. If there's a particular message that you want to be found in the tao te ching, and you don't find it... well, you are going to come up with all sorts of reasons for why it's not there (flawed translations, omitted by original author, supposed to be inferred by the reader, etc etc), and you are going to put it in yourself, justifying all manner of VERY liberal translations (again, not necessarily a bad thing) and other sorts of additions which will conform to what you think "should" be there.

 

So, just be aware of what you're doing as you do it, and where it can lead.

[xenolith]

That gaping fool Rush Limbaugh has opined that "compassion is no substitute for justice". Indeed not, it is far superior, say I...and I am a thoroughbred Libra...value justice, equity, fairness...in large part due to the deprivation of these in my own Life...but above all I value compassion.

 

Forgiveness is the essence of compassion...and compassion is the essence of the Boddhisattva, not uncoincidentally.

 

Thank you Kate. It is my heart that has been compelling me toward this action for the last 5 years. Am leaning toward taking a camping trip to a state far from the one where I live...have some fun! and mail a postcard with no return address to "this person" from some small roadside post office.

 

BTW, it was in a letter from her 15 years ago in which she confessed to me her actions and motivations that I learned most of the background behind the huge scar on my abdomen...subsequent records research and inquiry of my father filled in the rest of the story. Oddly, to me anyway, she never asked for forgiveness in that letter, but I perceived it to be a cathartic vehicle for relief of her conscience...which makes me think that she indeed is in possession of a functional conscience and therefore likely still suffers in the absence of knowledge of my forgiveness.

 

Thank you all for the kind offerings of your perspectives on this.

 

Love,

 

xeno

Edited December 1, 2010 by xenolith

[Aaron]

Hello Sloppy Zhang,

 

I'm pretty sure it's not so much what I want, but rather an intuitive feeling that the Guodian texts, at least what I've read of them seem to be incomplete. I think, like many philosophies, the general ideas were laid down, but it took several centuries for others to come along and add to them to make the complete philosophy.

 

This is actually my conversion or sorts, because for the last six months or so I've argued for translating the Guodian so we can get a clearer idea of what early Taoism entailed. In reviewing the two different texts, I can see that the Wang Bi text was picked up and used, not necessarily because of the Confucian influence, but because it made more sense in the broad scheme of things.

 

In regards to the Tao being impartial, I can agree with that, I was misreading Dawei's interpretation.

 

Aaron

[dawei]

so there's no need for forgiveness. That's good to know, all this time I could've been festerning over old wounds. All I really need to do is be impartial. I'm being sarcastic by the way. I can't see how impartiality is enough in this instance. What are your feelings about anger or mercy?

 

Something that I'm beginning to realize is that, even though certain sections of the Tao Teh Ching aren't present in the oldest texts, I feel that in a way the oldest texts are incomplete, as if there's something missing from them. Perhaps the later versions that came along were intending to fill that void?

I did not mean that. I said what manifests is 'forgiveness'. The manifest is the flip side; it is the reality we live and know but it's source is that impartiality we know as the great Way. (as Sloppy said, avoiding value judgments or assessments). My point was that we divide these issues up in our head but they are not so distinct on some level. How do we, when we feel broken inside, bring these together as a whole? Or are these already together, then how do we benefit from that? That is kind of where I was going. I think that this is a self-discovery on some level.

 

Anger or mercy? Like sun and rain. As Ecclesiastes says: For everything there is a season. I also think there is balance (or a cycle) to nature. So why not ask my thoughts about happiness or joy? (rhetorical, no need to ask).

 

I know at one time you thought to write a DDJ "12 steps". I still think that would be worthwhile to consider to explore these kinds of issues.

[宁]

Even if they are forgived, if what they did was very cruel, they FEEL the need to suffer.

Sometimes they will not believe you have forgiven them.

Because they wouldn't forgive you, if they were you.

Sometimes, only after you have hurt them yourself, will they feel at peace.

 

A debt of feelings is a debt of feelings, to recover it is very complex.

And until you do, you will be incomplete, because part of you is still left in the other person, even if you forgive the person. It has to be both ways.

 

I know, life isn't like in the good old books...

Good luck my friend

 

L1

[Aaron]

I did not mean that. I said what manifests is 'forgiveness'. The manifest is the flip side; it is the reality we live and know but it's source is that impartiality we know as the great Way. (as Sloppy said, avoiding value judgments or assessments). My point was that we divide these issues up in our head but they are not so distinct on some level. How do we, when we feel broken inside, bring these together as a whole? Or are these already together, then how do we benefit from that? That is kind of where I was going. I think that this is a self-discovery on some level.

 

Anger or mercy? Like sun and rain. As Ecclesiastes says: For everything there is a season. I also think there is balance (or a cycle) to nature. So why not ask my thoughts about happiness or joy? (rhetorical, no need to ask).

 

I know at one time you thought to write a DDJ "12 steps". I still think that would be worthwhile to consider to explore these kinds of issues.

 

So now I can't ask you what you thoughts on happiness or joy are? My you're really putting me in a tough spot here!

 

No worries. I know what you're saying, I'm just keeping you on your toes.

 

Aaron

Edited December 1, 2010 by Twinner

[manitou]

 

Suffice it to say, my Life has been made more difficult than it needed to be by my mom. I've forgiven her in my heart but I've not told her so. Out of compassion for her I want to tell her.

 

Hi Xeno - As far as I can see, there's only one thing for you to do. At this point, if you really don't want to interact with her (and I can see why...) you can exercise your forgiveness by doing something nice for her that she doesn't know about. Maybe periodically send her money anonymously, or if that's too close, you can even donate money or volunteer for a charity "in her name", if you know what I mean. But I think finding the most direct way to her (maybe the anonymous money) would be the best thing to keep your heart tender and soft, which is what it's all about. The fact that you are transcending and willing to forgive, for your own heart health, is rather wonderful. A nasty mindset toward someone else does nothing to hurt them; it only hurts our own hearts and spiritual progress.

[3bob]

When the many blames are reduced to one blame, to what is the one blame reduced to?

 

(a change of words related to a Zen saying)

 

Om

[strawdog65]

Hello everyone!

 

I have been quietly following this thread. Things that have been

related are very deep, and personal. I feel for you all.

 

There are many deep and irretrievable actions being discussed.

Forgiveness can only help. It will only clear blockages, to your

future growth.

 

People are messed up. They do messed up things. Many times we are

not in control of what has happened, this is unavoidable.

 

What comes next, how we choose to react/respond is of our own will.

 

Choosing to carry hateful feelings becomes a burden of your own making.

Will hateful feelings remove the memory of what was done?

Will negativity carried so deeply make your life better?

Any degree of forgiveness is going to do good, and create an

opening for growth to occupy.

 

 

Peace.