[TTC Study] Chapter 4 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Aaron]

Here's chapter Four of the Tao Teh Ching for discussion. I personally think this is a great chapter and certainly helps us to begin to understand Lao Tzu's beliefs regarding the Tao. I look forward to hearing everyone's comments.

 

 

Chapter Four (Translated by John C. H. Wu)

 

The Tao is like an empty bowl,

Which in being used can never be filled up.

Fathomless, it seems to be the origin of all things.

It blunts all sharp edges,

It unties all tangles,

It harmonizes all lights,

It unites the world into one whole.

Hidden in the deeps,

Yet it seems to exist for ever.

I do not know whose child it is;

It seems to be the common ancestor of all, the father

of things.

 

 

Chapter Four (Translated by Gia-fu Feng and Jane English)

 

The Tao is an empty vessel; it is used, but never filled.

Oh, unfathomable source of ten thousand things!

Blunt the sharpness,

Untangle the knot,

Soften the glare,

Merge with dust.

Oh, hidden deep but ever present!

I do not know from whence it comes.

It is the forefather of the gods.

 

 

Chapter Four (Translated by Robert G. Henricks- Note this translations is from an older version of the Tao Teh Ching and may differ from other translations)

 

1. The Way is empty;

2. Yet when you use it, you never need fill it again.

3. Like an abyss! It seems to be the ancestor of the ten thousand things.

 

4. If files down sharp edges;

5. Unties the tangles;

6. Softens the glare;

7. And settles the dust.

 

8. Submerged! It seems perhaps to exist.

9. We don't know whose child it is;

10. It seems to have [even] preceded the Lord.

 

 

 

 

Aaron

Edited December 2, 2010 by Twinner

[Marblehead]

Yep. In this chapter the word "Tao" is used as a noun.

 

I think it is this chapter, more than any other, that can be used to justify Religious Taoism.

 

And, of course, listed herein are some of the characteristics (attributes) of Tao.

 

But then we are reminded that 'we don't know whose child it is' so that we are not misled into thinking that these characteristics define Tao or suggest a primal beginning.

[rene]

I really like Ch 4. It's the first time (at least in the F/E rendition) that the tone, the feel, moves towards the poetic; and it's the first chapter to focus just on Tao.

[themaninthesuit]

Hi all, well i actually like the Stephen Mitchell version i have of chapter 4. So ill post it before i talk about it.

 

4.

The Tao is like a well:

used but never used up.

It is like the eternal void:

filled with infinite possibilities

 

It is hidden but always present.

I dont know who gave birth to it.

It is older then God

 

I agree rene, i feel it is the first to "point" us in the direction of the Tao. Cuz it seems like its telling us its something you can not grasp, as in the tangible sense. We can not see it but it is there and we can use it whatever way we want.

[Aaron]

Hello folks,

 

What interests me about this chapter, is the degrees of difference in the description of the emptiness. One calls it a bowl, another a vessel, another a well, and another simply empty. There seems to be a need to apply some physical descriptor to it by most, something that we can relate it to, when I think the truth is we can't relate it to anything, it is simply a void.

 

The idea of space comes into mind, that without space nothing could exist as an individual object, there would be nothing to seperate us from anything else, we'd simply be one gigantic mass. The idea that this emptiness can be used, that you can draw from it and it is never full should inspire awe, but I think most see this, and rather than be awed, they simply let the idea pass. What comes to my mind is a spring that bubbles from the ground, you don't know where the water is coming from, but so long as you're thirsty it can quench your thirst and it well never run dry.

 

If you show a child a simple trick, one where you spill water from a glass and then before their eyes it is filled again, they stop and "ooh" and "aah"... Wow! How does that happen? This shouldn't happen, but it is, what a great trick!

 

We should see it the same way, but we have been so inundated with stories of miracles, walking on water, elephants helping to give birth to Buddhas, that we forget the true majesty of this idea.

 

And the things it does! It untangles knots, it dulls knives, it brings things to harmony, even the world becomes whole because of it. Yet it isn't a God, it doesn't attempt to control anything, it just gives what it has without any request or requirement of devotion.

 

It was here before all things were created, later we'll learn that it was there from the beginning and that it will be there at the end. Of all the chapters, this one is perhaps the most amazing to me, because it describes something so grand and subtle that it defies imagination. The fact that this description barely gives it justice makes it even more amazing.

 

This is one chapter, where differences of translation seem to not matter so much, because regardless of the correctness of words, nothing can accurately define the unfathomable nature of the Tao. The best we can do is look at it with awe and accept it as something beyond definition.

 

Aaron

[rene]

Aaron, that was really nice.

 

And this,

 

"This is one chapter, where differences of translation seem to not matter so much, because regardless of the correctness of words, nothing can accurately define the unfathomable nature of the Tao. The best we can do is look at it with awe and accept it as something beyond definition."

 

- pretty much reflects how I feel about the whole book.

 

warmest regards

[Marblehead]

Aaron, that was really nice.

 

 

 

Agree. Thanks!

[themaninthesuit]

Aaron i am gonna say that analysis is full of grace and truth.

 

The idea that this emptiness can be used, that you can draw from it and it is never full should inspire awe, but I think most see this, and rather than be awed, they simply let the idea pass. What comes to my mind is a spring that bubbles from the ground, you don't know where the water is coming from, but so long as you're thirsty it can quench your thirst and it well never run dry

 

I love this, not sure why but it reminds me something i read from my chuang tzu book and i will put it down for those that do not have it.

Hui Tzu said to Chuang Tzu: "All your teaching is centered on what has no use."

Chuang replied: "If you have no appreciation for what has no use you cannot begin to talk about what can be used. The earth, for example, is broad and vast. But of this expanse a man uses only a few inches upon which he happens to be standing. Now suppose you suddenly take away all that he is actually not using so that, all around his feet a gulf yawns, and he stands in the Void,with nowhere solid except under each foot: how long will he be able to use what he is using?"

Hui Tzu said: "It would cease to serve any purpose."

Chuang Tzu concluded: "This shows the absolute necessity of what has no use."

 

People seem to think of emptiness as a negative thing, but without it where would we be?

[dawei]

What interests me about this chapter, is the degrees of difference in the description of the emptiness. One calls it a bowl, another a vessel, another a well, and another simply empty. There seems to be a need to apply some physical descriptor to it by most, something that we can relate it to, when I think the truth is we can't relate it to anything, it is simply a void.

Yes, this first line is a gem!

 

And it should come as no surprise that such a visually rich line is not repeated in some form. Chapter 45 has a single line which shares some of the same characters to convey the 'empty', 'full', 'use', and 'not used up'.

 

Chapter 4:

道沖而用之有不盈

The Dao pours forth and yet has unlimited use. -- My translation

 

Chapter 45:

大盈若沖其用不窮

What is most full seems empty but it’s usefulness is inexhaustible. -- Chan

 

---

 

I take a slightly different translation direction than empty but the meaning is the same; it cannot be used up, it cannot be emptied (although it pours forth).

 

The reason I go with the 'pouring forth' is that there is a strong water presence in the line. Chong (沖) and the original, obsolete character for Ying (盈) was this Ying (浧), both which have water radicals. It's also possible that the character was another one with one less stroke which I have the unicode for but it will not display, but can be seen here:

http://www.zdic.net/zd/zi3/ZdicF0ZdicA3ZdicB3ZdicA4.htm

 

---

 

The other line which is curious is the last one:

象帝之先

SIMILAR-LORD/GOD/EMPEROR-IT'S-PRIOR

 

There are a few possibilities for "Di", which was posthumously ascribed to the Sage-Emperors (clan leaders) going back to Huang Di forward through the Qing Dynasty. But my feeling is that this is not really meant since that keeps it on the physical sphere.

 

Wang Bi's commentary said that [he presumes] it means "Shang Di", which can mean 'Highest Ruler' or 'Heavenly Ruler' (whom sacrifices were made to). I prefer this reference over "God" since it is not completely the western concept of "God". What's curious is the use of "Di" as "Shang Di" was really more a Shang Dynasty concept and the Zhou Dynasty eventually replaces that with the use of "Tian". Lao Zi would of lived after the time of the fall of Zhou, so the usage of "Di" as in "Shang Di" seems actually less likely on some level. I have not researched this to really give a solid opinion, but I think it may be a general refer to things "Divine" in nature. I don't think any absolute solution is needed as we get the gist that Dao is before anything related to the physical sphere.

Edited December 3, 2010 by dawei

[Aaron]

[Aaron]

People seem to think of emptiness as a negative thing, but without it where would we be?

 

 

Hello themaninthesuit,

 

I think you're absolutely right. Excellent point.

 

Aaron

[Procurator]

Chapter 4:

道沖而用之有不盈

The Dao pours forth and yet has unlimited use. -- My translation

 

道Dao 沖is empty 而but 用making 之by it 有of matter is 不盈inexhaustible

[dawei]

 

 

道Dao 沖is empty 而but 用making 之by it 有of matter is 不盈inexhaustible

沖is empty - that is the typical meaning, but I don't see it.

When I look at the original character I see something being moved forward by water... going with the flow. I see that as a very good depiction of Dao... flowing [forth].

 

[Procurator]

its 'cause u r ignoring the second half of the phrase, which is a contrast to the first one. the meaning of the entire phrase is that something empty creates something material unlimitedly. in other words you r missing on 3-4 deeper levels of meaning.

 

as to water - yes it is there. the characters signifies empty as in a deep chasm filled with nothing but water.

[dawei]

its 'cause u r ignoring the second half of the phrase, which is a contrast to the first one. the meaning of the entire phrase is that something empty creates something material unlimitedly. in other words you r missing on 3-4 deeper levels of meaning.

 

as to water - yes it is there. the characters signifies empty as in a deep chasm filled with nothing but water.

I mentioned in my notes that "pour forth" means to empty but cannot empty [due to the second half of the line]. So I have a contrast in mind.

 

But your picture is parallel to the valley; Instead of filled with [nothing but] air, this imagery is filled with [nothing but] water. ok. I like that. Thanks.

[manitou]

It blunts all sharp edges,

It unties all tangles,

 

I'm particularly partial to the various translations that refer to the Tao as a bellows. Inherent in the outgoing breath is the onset of the new breath. And ad infinitum.

 

As to the Tao blunting all sharp edges and untying all tangles, it may very well be talking about us. How sarcastic and feisty I can be - how very offputting to anyone who's communicating with me. To be truly in the Tao is to not be sharp, angry, irritated, short-tempered. The Tao is slowly softening my sharp edges, filing down the buttons that sit in front of me that I can give anybody the power to push on any given day. But not if I'm in the Tao. My edges are seeming to disappear, very gradually....not fast enough. My edges disappear with my judgments, and seemingly at the same rate.

And the tangles. How can they be untied? Because the Sage knows himself. He knows his own intent and his own imperfections. The Sage trusts that the Tao will bring to him everything that he needs to fill the voids within, one character defect at a time. The situations will raise their heads; situations that are exactly what we need for our further character development. The ones we fail to pass, well they come around again. And again. It unties all the knots and tangles in us, leaving a clear chamber in which to process information that comes in to us. We will have been given the gift of clarity, when all is said and done.

[rene]

Edited December 5, 2010 by rene

[majc]

 

 

沖is empty - that is the typical meaning, but I don't see it.

When I look at the original character I see something being moved forward by water... going with the flow. I see that as a very good depiction of Dao... flowing [forth].

Awesome post. I don't see it either. This character took me down exactly the same route.

----------------------------------------
The Tao flows,
and though used, it keeps coming.
With its motion, everything grows!

As it moves...
The pointed smoothes over.
The tangled unwinds.
The glaring fades.
The dust settles.

But what a mystery it remains!
Who knows how it started?
I can imagine nothing superior.

http://www.openwisdom.org/tao-te-ching/#4
---------------------------------------- Edited March 25, 2017 by dawei

[dawei]

Awesome post. I don't see it either. This character took me down exactly the same route.

thanks. I think there is balance in this; meaning it's both empty and flowing as a concept, probably not just either/or. If I were to use 'empty' as a translation now, I might say 'empty appearance' since it's not really empty.

[Marblehead]

thanks. I think there is balance in this; meaning it's both empty and flowing as a concept, probably not just either/or. If I were to use 'empty' as a translation now, I might say 'empty appearance' since it's not really empty.

 

For many years now I have looked at the Taoist concept of empty as being equal to 'full of potential'. That is, it appears to be empty but in fact it is full of potential and can become whatever is possible at any given point in time.

 

In fact, I don't even care that much for the term 'empty' in Taoist philosophy but rather see it as fullness of potential.

Edited December 5, 2010 by Marblehead

[Procurator]

---

 

The other line which is curious is the last one:

象帝之先

SIMILAR-LORD/GOD/EMPEROR-IT'S-PRIOR

 

not similar. In Yin-yang school the 4 cardinal trigramms are called 象s. its a moving energy that has not yet taken shape 形。an image w/o shape.

[dawei]

not similar. In Yin-yang school the 4 cardinal trigramms are called 象s. its a moving energy that has not yet taken shape 形。an image w/o shape.

yes, not sure why I said "similar"; I usually think in terms of 'appearance', 'image' or 'shape'.

 

thanks for that trigram reminder.

 

At least I didn't say 'elephant'... One of my friends in china has a nickname of 'xiang'... because he has a slight appearance [similar] to an elephant [face].

Edited December 6, 2010 by dawei

[Conwaypk]

Hmmm. Your all speaking of Tao as a noun. A noun that acts, or atleast, can be used. I don't see it like this.

 

Verse 4: Tao Te Ching by: Jonathan Star

"Tao is empty

yet it fills every vessel with endless supply

Tao is hidden

yet it shines in every corner of the universe

With it, the sharp edges become smooth

the twisted knots loosen

the sun is softened by a cloud

the dust settles into place

So deep, so pure, so still

It has been this way forever

You may ask, "Whose child is it?" -

but I cannot say

This child was here before the Great Ancestor"

 

I see this as a state of mind. WE are the ones that, following the way of the Tao, can reduce our own stress, WE are the ones that loosen our own tangled minds. This verse, as a philosophy to me, speaks more of accepting Tao, or acting with the mindful awareness of accepting Tao in one's life. How to live a good life, a fun life, without stress or ignorance or negative energy.

 

The emtpy, never-ending usefulness I see not as a mindset, but as (and here I am again the Christian) God's ultimate power. Tao was not here before God, but Tao (as a philosophy) was here out of the creation of God. Is this a direct contradiction to this verse?

[Marblehead]

Hmmm. Your all speaking of Tao as a noun. A noun that acts, or atleast, can be used. I don't see it like this.

 

I see this as a state of mind. WE are the ones that, following the way of the Tao, can reduce our own stress, WE are the ones that loosen our own tangled minds. This verse, as a philosophy to me, speaks more of accepting Tao, or acting with the mindful awareness of accepting Tao in one's life. How to live a good life, a fun life, without stress or ignorance or negative energy.

 

The emtpy, never-ending usefulness I see not as a mindset, but as (and here I am again the Christian) God's ultimate power. Tao was not here before God, but Tao (as a philosophy) was here out of the creation of God. Is this a direct contradiction to this verse?

 

Hi Conway,

 

Actually, the word "Tao" is used as both a noun and a verb. As a verb it is normally represented with the word "Way". Tao, the noun, is everything. And yes, it could be used as a replacement for the word "God".

 

Way, then would be the action of Tao. That is, the processes - the way things work. From your perspective I supposed you could look at Way as Jesus (the Son of God).

 

And yes, the chapter starts out speaking to the noun then shifts to the verb.

[Conwaypk]

Hi Conway,

 

Actually, the word "Tao" is used as both a noun and a verb. As a verb it is normally represented with the word "Way". Tao, the noun, is everything. And yes, it could be used as a replacement for the word "God".

 

Way, then would be the action of Tao. That is, the processes - the way things work. From your perspective I supposed you could look at Way as Jesus (the Son of God).

 

And yes, the chapter starts out speaking to the noun then shifts to the verb.

 

That's really all I can say haha, I really like what you said.

 

So thinking about this a little bit, are you saying that Tao IS God (Christian), so Tao is the predominant, meaning, without God, there would still be Tao?

 

Or do you just simply mean that God IS the Way (Tao). (Yes, this is all only for my perspective, with Christianity).

Edited March 31, 2011 by Conwaypk