[TTC Study] Chapter 4 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Aaron]

Irony... I said at the beginning of this thread that chapter four was one of the few chapters where it really didn't matter so much how different the translation is, yet here we are nitpicking over something that seems to have little to no significance in the meaning of the chapter. I guess we might be a bit full... of it. LOL.... couldn't help myself.

 

Aaron

[ChiDragon]

If one tried to correct the other who was insisting to call a deer a horse, was that nitpicking...???

[Stosh]

Its inherent to the task that yall will be emotionally

invested in it ...

 

Take it from a fire-rooster

or look to the wisdom of the ancients

bend ,flex ,let it go...

 

or grip into it rigidly

 

Stosh

[ChiDragon]

Its inherent to the task that yall will be emotionally

invested in it ...

 

Take it from a fire-rooster

or look to the wisdom of the ancients

bend ,flex ,let it go...

 

or grip into it rigidly

 

Stosh

 

I've learned from a thousand year old university in my last trip to China:

"One must dispute when the truth was being jeopardized."

Edited August 2, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

I've learned from a thousand year old university in my last trip to China:

"One must dispute when the truth was being jeopardized."

Hehehe. I would be pulling out my hair if I had any left.

 

I agree with the quote but then who is to determine who is really speaking the truth and which truth is that person speaking?

[ChiDragon]

Hehehe. I would be pulling out my hair if I had any left.

 

I agree with the quote but then who is to determine who is really speaking the truth and which truth is that person speaking?

 

It is the truth of the consensus which is the most reasonable and logical truth.

Edited August 2, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Brian]

Hehehe. I would be pulling out my hair if I had any left.

 

I agree with the quote but then who is to determine who is really speaking the truth and which truth is that person speaking?

 

^^^

 

I am.

 

 

 

 

 

(Silly question.)

[ChiDragon]

^^^

 

I am.

 

 

This was my original answer but I was not brave enough to say it.....

[Stosh]

This was my original answer but I was not brave enough to say it.....

[Aaron]

If one tried to correct the other who was insisting to call a deer a horse, was that nitpicking...???

 

If it didn't really matter, by definition, yes it would be.

 

Aaron

[lienshan]

who is really speaking the truth and which truth is that person speaking?

Tao, emptied and made useful, has not to be filled.

 

I read the truth of the above Mawangdui line 1 version this way:

 

Try model a lump of clay into a cup; the form makes the clay useful, because the clay is made empty.

[Marblehead]

Tao, emptied and made useful, has not to be filled.

 

I read the truth of the above Mawangdui line 1 version this way:

 

Try model a lump of clay into a cup; the form makes the clay useful, because the clay is made empty.

And it is also the emptiness of the cup that makes it useful.

[Stosh]

And it is also the emptiness of the cup that makes it useful.

It depends on circumstance doesnt it?

If I have an empty water glass its not doing me any good.

I might as well throw it away.

If I fill the glass,

then the glass is useful for holding the water

till I get around to drinking it.

Stosh

Edited August 12, 2012 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

It depends on circumstance doesnt it?

If I have an empty water glass its not doing me any good.

I might as well throw it away.

If I fill the glass,

then the glass is useful for holding the water

till I get around to drinking it.

Stosh

Well, that's a different way of looking at it. Hehehe. I wouldn't go too far with that thought though. Might get into trouble.

[Stosh]

Trouble ?

Im just saying the true and reasonable thing there.

for the benefit of anybody who wants to hear it today

Stosh

[Marblehead]

Trouble ?

Im just saying the true and reasonable thing there.

for the benefit of anybody who wants to hear it today

Stosh

Truths? I've got enough of those. Tell me about some of your illusions and delusions.

[Stosh]

Ok Ill tell one if you will,,

The ball is in your court.

Stosh

[Marblehead]

Ok Ill tell one if you will,,

The ball is in your court.

Stosh

When I am at home the world is at peace. No wars, no conflicts, All life lives in peace and harmony with all other life.

 

Another one - Our politicians speak only the truth and do only those things that are in the interest of peace amongst all living creatures.

[Stosh]

1) I actually like bears , silly I know , and self defeating

but hey , cmon they are nifty.

 

2) I have this illusion that the things we say and do live on after us

and they affect all that will happen after. A sort of legacy

of who we were that can never be undone, a fingerprint, a brand, some sort of

ongoing ripple, and remnant of us.

No matter how rapidly it appears to fade

No matter how suddenly it appears to be swallowed up in background noise

it will go on

and on top of that !

I kid myself that my intent drives it to the positive.

Stosh

[Marblehead]

Your #2 is similar to my understanding/belief of "Universal Chi". No, I have no data to back up this belief of mine and I doubt I could present a logical explanation of this belief. (An illusion? Likely.)

 

Hehehe. We managed to take this thread way off topic too.

 

Chapter 4 really doesn't talk about illusions and delusions.

 

But still, be careful of the bears.

[Stosh]

You are correct sir Here is Aarons first post to bring things back on track...

 

 

Here's chapter Four of the Tao Teh Ching for discussion. I personally think this is a great chapter and certainly helps us to begin to understand Lao Tzu's beliefs regarding the Tao. I look forward to hearing everyone's comments.

 

 

Chapter Four (Translated by John C. H. Wu)

 

The Tao is like an empty bowl,

Which in being used can never be filled up.

Fathomless, it seems to be the origin of all things.

It blunts all sharp edges,

It unties all tangles,

It harmonizes all lights,

It unites the world into one whole.

Hidden in the deeps,

Yet it seems to exist for ever.

I do not know whose child it is;

It seems to be the common ancestor of all, the father

of things.

 

 

Chapter Four (Translated by Gia-fu Feng and Jane English)

 

The Tao is an empty vessel; it is used, but never filled.

Oh, unfathomable source of ten thousand things!

Blunt the sharpness,

Untangle the knot,

Soften the glare,

Merge with dust.

Oh, hidden deep but ever present!

I do not know from whence it comes.

It is the forefather of the gods.

 

 

Chapter Four (Translated by Robert G. Henricks- Note this translations is from an older version of the Tao Teh Ching and may differ from other translations)

 

1. The Way is empty;

2. Yet when you use it, you never need fill it again.

3. Like an abyss! It seems to be the ancestor of the ten thousand things.

 

4. If files down sharp edges;

5. Unties the tangles;

6. Softens the glare;

7. And settles the dust.

 

8. Submerged! It seems perhaps to exist.

9. We don't know whose child it is;

10. It seems to have [even] preceded the Lord.

 

 

 

 

Aaron

[Marblehead]

Yea!!!

[The Observer]

 

Chapter Four (Translated by Gia-fu Feng and Jane English)

 

The Tao is an empty vessel; it is used, but never filled.

 

When one meditates and reaches a moment of being refreshed and invigorated and the self is cast off, even for a second, this phrase truly comes to life.

 

I think you could compare the Tao to a vast, deep lake that we're all swimming in. The crazy part is that 99 percent of us get thirsty and desperately search for water, forgetting we are swimming in the very stuff that can replenish us.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I'm thinking about it this way:

 

"The empty vessel is used, but never used up."

 

You have a cup, you fill it, it is still a cup. You overflow it, it is still a cup. It receives but it doesn't grasp. It lets go of the overflow and remains receptive, open, always ready to recieve, always ready to let go.

[Marblehead]

I'm thinking about it this way:

 

"The empty vessel is used, but never used up."

 

You have a cup, you fill it, it is still a cup. You overflow it, it is still a cup. It receives but it doesn't grasp. It lets go of the overflow and remains receptive, open, always ready to recieve, always ready to let go.

That's nice.