[TTC Study] Chapter 4 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Marblehead]

That's really all I can say haha, I really like what you said.

 

So thinking about this a little bit, are you saying that Tao IS God (Christian), so Tao is the predominant, meaning, without God, there would still be Tao?

 

Or do you just simply mean that God IS the Way (Tao). (Yes, this is all only for my perspective, with Christianity).

 

OH NO!!!! Remember, I am an Atheist. I am talking 'with' you, not 'to' you. Hehehe. And I was speaking from your perspective. You could easily slide into the Religious Taoist collection of people.

 

For me, the noun "Tao" is simply "Everything" or "Oneness". I place no other value on "Tao", the noun. The "Way" is what I afford my attention to.

[Stigweard]

Chapter Four -- Without Source

 

Dao flows forth,

And yet its capacity is never exhausted.

So fathomless,

It seems to be the ancestor of all things.

 

It erodes sharpness,

It dissolves obstruction,

It softens glare,

It settles dust.

 

So deep, it seems not to exist.

I don’t know whose offspring it is,

It appears to precede the first cause.

 

Stigweard's Daodejing 道德經

 

Original Text:

 

 

Chinese Characters:

第四章 -- 無源

 

道沖，

而用之或不盈。

淵兮，

似萬物之宗﹔

 

挫其銳，

解其紛，

和其光，

同其塵﹔

 

湛兮似或存。

吾不知誰之子？

象帝之先。

 

Chinese Pinyin:

 

Yǎng shēn

 

Dào chōng

ér yòng zhī huò bù yíng.

Yuān xī,

sì wànwù zhī zōng;

 

Cuò qí ruì,

Jiě qí fēn,

Hé qí guāng,

Tong qí chén,

Zhàn xī sì huò cún.

Wú bù zhī shéi zhī zǐ?

Xiàng dì zhī xiān.

 

 

Ancient Seal / Bronze Characters:

 

.....

 

 

Translator's Notes and Commentary:

 

 

Chapter Overview:

 

For all intents and purposes I could well call this chapter the “Water Chapter.” Everything intonates the properties and likeness of water and gives rise to the idea that the Dao of Laozi is a water-way.

 

Right from the title we are presented with the issuing of water and this theme runs through the first paragraph. Dao is given the character of the sourceless origin whose fountain head nor capacity knows no delineation or measurement.

 

Lines 3 through 6 I have deliberately rendered to show the properties of water, i.e. erodes, dissolves, dampens, settles.

 

The last paragraph returns us again to an infinite, watery, unfathomable depth.

 

Title: 無源-- Wú yuán

 

Wú 無 simply means an absence or negative like the terms “no, not, have no”. It can either be the image of cleared patch of forest, thus negation, or it has also been pictographically linked to shaman dancers holding tassels with my implication of that the tassels become the focus of attention and the dancer “disappears”.

 

Yuán gives us the image of a natural spring of water. Meanings include: “source, origin, spring, head, surname.”

 

Line 1: 道沖，而用之或不盈。-- Dào chōng ér yòng zhī huò bù yíng.

 

Dào 道 has several common meanings, including: Way, path, road, nature, reason, say, speak, theory, doctrine.

 

Pictographically, 道 shows a man 首 walking 辶 on a road. Furthermore, shǒu首 indicates: first, leader, or chief, so we have the sense of Dào being a noble ‘way’, or a path of prime significance.

 

Chōng gives us the image of water flowing from a receptacle or portal. Meanings include: pour, flow, rinse, infuse, wash, flush, to empty, to make void.

 

Ér is a contextual contrasting term like “but”, “otherwise”, “and yet”.

 

Yòng presents us with perhaps the image of a container or a bell, something that is useful. Meanings include: useful, usage, employ, apply, operate, to put into practice, practical.

 

Zhī is merely a preceding phrase as a modifier of shǐ, like the word ‘it’.

 

Huò is another one of those interesting characters. Pictographically it can be seen as a city protected by weapons. Commonly used it means: maybe, perhaps, might, possibly, or, else, whether, uncertain, doubtful.

 

Bù means “no, not; un-; negative prefix”.

 

Yíng is the image of a container that has been filled to overflowing. Meanings include: full, overflow, surplus, to have a surplus, be filled with, to fill.

 

Line 2: 淵兮，似萬物之宗﹔Yuān xī, sì wànwù zhī zōng;

 

Yuān 淵 continues the association with water found in this chapter. Here we see the idea of an abyss or a very deep pool of water. Fathomless works quite nicely because “fathom” is a measure of the depth of water.

 

Xī is an exclamatory particle often used in Han and Qin dynasty poetry. In this sense it is like an exclamation mark for yuān.

 

Sì is an obscure character whose pictography seems to portray a man appearing as another (??). It common usage includes: appear, as if, resemble, seems to, similar to.

 

Wànwù once again returns us to the concept of “the 10,000 things” or, as I have rendered in chapter 1, “the many separate things”. “All of life” could also be used.

 

Zhī is merely a preceding phrase as a modifier of shǐ, like the word ‘it’.

 

Zōng shows the image of an altar inside of a house. In this sense it is like an ancestral shrine, thus translations include: ancestor, clan, sect, religion, great master.

 

Line 3: 挫其銳，Cuò qí ruì,

 

Cuò is something forced by the hand, or done by the force of the hand. So meanings include: frustrate, defeat, subdue, push down; be obstructed, fail, oppress, repress, lower the tone, bend back, dampen, chop down, grind.

 

Qí 其 is a pronoun like he, she, it, they etc. and usually refers to somebody or something mentioned earlier.

 

Ruì relates to the property of metal. Translations include: sharp, keen, acute, pointed, quick-witted, intelligent, clever, energetic, vigorous.

 

Line 4: 解其紛，Jiě qí fēn,

 

Jiě shows the image of a knife that separates the horn from the ox, or an ox horn that is cut by a knife. Translations include: separate, divide, to break up, disperse

to untie, to undo, allay, loosen, unfasten, untie; also to explain, to clarify, to interpret, explanation, interpretation, to understand. Of note is that it is the 40th hexagram of the I Ching, thunder over water. In this hexagram the water is like the obstacle of ice and thunder is like the first clap of thunder in spring that signals the thawing of winter. So meanings of dissolving or dissolution are also implied. The knife that separates the horn is like Zhuangzi’s butcher whose knife separates the carcass without finding obstruction.

 

Qí 其 is a pronoun like he, she, it, they etc. and usually refers to somebody or something mentioned earlier.

 

Fēn shows us many threads in confusion, like a knot of string. Meanings include: in disorder, scattered, tangled, confused.

 

Line 5: 和其光，Hé qí guāng,

 

Hé shows us the image of a mouth and is most commonly translated as: harmony, peace; peaceful, calm.

 

Qí 其 is a pronoun like he, she, it, they etc. and usually refers to somebody or something mentioned earlier.

 

Guāng is the image of fire above a man. Meanings include: light, brilliant, shine, glorious, honor, to illume.

 

Line 6: 同其塵﹔Tong qí chén,

 

Tong shows the image of a sail or fan covering the mouth or objects. So it is like things are under a common cover. Meanings include: same, similar; together with, agree. I have chosen to follow Robert G. Henricks rendition of tong as “settle” because when our mouths come to an agreement, under the same “cover”, we settle our differences or settle a deal.

 

Qí 其 is a pronoun like he, she, it, they etc. and usually refers to somebody or something mentioned earlier.

 

Chén is the image of soil flying from running deer. Translations are: dust, dirt, ashes, cinders.

 

Line 7: 湛兮似或存。Zhàn xī sì huò cún.

 

Zhàn returns us again to water with meanings including: deep; profound; clear; tranquil, placid.

 

Xī is an exclamatory particle often used in Han and Qin dynasty poetry. In this sense it is like an exclamation mark for yuān.

 

Sì is an obscure character whose pictography seems to portray a man appearing as another (??). It common usage includes: appear, as if, resemble, seems to, similar to.

 

Huò is another one of those interesting characters. Pictographically it can be seen as a city protected by weapons. Commonly used it means: maybe, perhaps, might, possibly, or, else, whether, uncertain, doubtful.

 

Cún shows us the image of a child. Meanings include: exist, live, be; survive; remain, to keep, preserve, store, deposit.

 

Line 8: 吾不知誰之子？Wú bù zhī shéi zhī zǐ?

 

Wú is the commonly used “I”.

 

Bù means “no, not; un-; negative prefix”.

 

Zhī, commonly translated as “to know” or “regards”, is a composite of an arrow and an open mouth. So in a sense this is saying when we point or aim at something with our speech, so “declare” might be used.

 

Shéi designates speak or speech, commonly translated as: who, whom, whose, anyone.

 

Zhī is merely a preceding phrase as a modifier of shǐ, like the word ‘it’.

 

Zǐ presents us with a picture of baby with outstretched arms, legs still hidden by a blanket. Meanings include: offspring, child; fruit, seed of.

 

Line 9: 象帝之先。Xiàng dì zhī xiān.

 

Xiàng shows an elephant with big head and tusks. Translations include: appearance; shape; image , imitate, be like; resemble; take after, look as if, seem , likeness.

 

Dì is the image of a sacrificial altar or the emperor's "flowing robes and a fine head-gear." Meanings include: supreme ruler, emperor; god, natural force, supreme ruler, the Supreme Being, the great ancestor, imperialism, imperial.

 

Zhī is merely a preceding phrase as a modifier of shǐ, like the word ‘it’.

 

Xiān represents the forward footprint of person or a person walking ahead of another. Meanings include: first, foremost, before, former, in front, earlier, in advance,

elder generation, ancestor.

 

 

 

Edited July 1, 2011 by Stigweard

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 4 - The Fathomless Tao.

1. Tao is a vessel and its function seems inexhaustible.

2. Abyss, aha! It seems like the ancestry of all things.

3/7. Fathomless, aha! Unconscious or conscious.

4/8. I don't know whose son he is,

5/9. It seems like before the heavenly god.

 

***** lines 3 through 6 seem to be out of context. They were reappeared in Chapter 56*****

 

1. 道沖而用之或不盈。

2. 淵兮似萬物之宗。

3. 挫其銳

4. 解其紛，

5. 和其光，

6. 同其塵，

7. 湛兮似或存。

8. 吾不知誰之子，

9. 象帝之先。

[Stigweard]

***** lines 3 through 6 seem to be out of context. They were reappeared in Chapter 56*****

These lines only seem to be "out of context" if you overlook the context that the chapter is very implicitely likening Dao to the qualities of water.

 

3 It erodes sharpness [like water],

4 It dissolves obstruction [like water],

5 It softens glare [like water],

6 It settles dust [like water].

 

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/16267-stigweards-daodejing-%26%2336947%3B%26%2324503%3B%26%2332147%3B/page__view__findpost__p__269460

Edited July 1, 2011 by Stigweard

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 4

 

3. 挫其銳

4. 解其紛，

5. 和其光，

6. 同其塵，

 

3. Blunt the sharp edge

4. Dissolve the dispute

5. Dampen the brightness

6. Blend into the dusty world.

 

These lines are metaphors advising human that:

3. Sharp edges are easy to be broken, it is better to make it blunt. Another word, do not take matters to the most extreme.

4. It's better to avoid dispute than creating one.

5. Do not expose oneself too open from getting into a unpleasant situation.

6. Blend oneself with the rest of the world, so, one won't be isolated.

 

I don't see how these thoughts fall into the rest of the chapter.

 

Chapter 4 - The Fathomless Tao.

1. Tao is a vessel and its function seems inexhaustible.

2. Abyss, aha! It seems like the ancestry of all things.

3/7. Fathomless, aha! Unconscious or conscious.

4/8. I don't know whose son he is,

5/9. It seems like before the heavenly god.

[dawei]

These lines are metaphors advising human that:

3. Sharp edges are easy to be broken, it is better to make it blunt. Another word, do not take matters to the most extreme.

4. It's better to avoid dispute than creating one.

5. Do not expose oneself too open from getting into a unpleasant situation.

6. Blend oneself with the rest of the world, so, one won't be isolated.

 

I don't see how these thoughts fall into the rest of the chapter.

These lines describe the action of Dao; the opening already prepares one for that and therefore what's to follow.

 

This is one of the most extensive chapter commentaries by Wang Bi. He apparently saw the relevance. He relates, as one example of a metaphor, that one joins with dust without one's nature being polluted. There are many applications to get from the understand that even "Dao mingles in the dust" [without any weakening-pollution-of it's efficacy].

[Stigweard]

Chapter 4

 

3. 挫其銳

4. 解其紛，

5. 和其光，

6. 同其塵，

 

3. Blunt the sharp edge

4. Dissolve the dispute

5. Dampen the brightness

6. Blend into the dusty world.

 

These lines are metaphors advising human that:

3. Sharp edges are easy to be broken, it is better to make it blunt. Another word, do not take matters to the most extreme.

4. It's better to avoid dispute than creating one.

5. Do not expose oneself too open from getting into a unpleasant situation.

6. Blend oneself with the rest of the world, so, one won't be isolated.

 

I don't see how these thoughts fall into the rest of the chapter.

 

Chapter 4 - The Fathomless Tao.

1. Tao is a vessel and its function seems inexhaustible.

2. Abyss, aha! It seems like the ancestry of all things.

3/7. Fathomless, aha! Unconscious or conscious.

4/8. I don't know whose son he is,

5/9. It seems like before the heavenly god.

I count 5 implicit references to water in this chapter:

 

Title: 源 = 氵(water) + 原

Line 1: 沖 = 氵(water) + 中

Line 1: 盈 = overflowing container again implying water

Line 2: 淵 = 氵(water) + yuān

Line 7: 湛 = 氵(water) + 甚

 

Thus I can with confidence say that lines 3-6 must also be water-natured; that they are describing properties of water that are synonymously properties of Dao. Hence:

 

3 It erodes sharpness [like water],

4 It dissolves obstruction [like water],

5 It softens glare [like water],

6 It settles dust [like water].

 

If you read lines 3-6 within this context they are very relevant to the overall chapter.

[ChiDragon]

I count 5 implicit references to water in this chapter:

 

Title: 源 = 氵(water) + 原

Line 1: 沖 = 氵(water) + 中

Line 1: 盈 = overflowing container again implying water

Line 2: 淵 = 氵(water) + yuān

Line 7: 湛 = 氵(water) + 甚

 

Thus I can with confidence say that lines 3-6 must also be water-natured; that they are describing properties of water that are synonymously properties of Dao. Hence:

 

3 It erodes sharpness [like water],

4 It dissolves obstruction [like water],

5 It softens glare [like water],

6 It settles dust [like water].

 

If you read lines 3-6 within this context they are very relevant to the overall chapter.

The meaning of the characters. For studying the roots of the characters, it is fine. However, when they were putted into application, especially in classic text, they have special meanings.

 

FYI...

Title: 源 = 氵(water) + 原(origin)

源 = the source of the water; where the water was originated.

The final meaning of the 源: the source.

 

Line 1: 沖 = 氵(water) + 中(center)

沖 = the water flows in the center.

沖 is equivalent to 盅(utensil) in classic text

 

Line 2: 淵 = 氵(water) + yuān

淵: deep water; abyss

 

Line 7: 湛 = 氵(water) + 甚(extreme)

湛: deep(in classic text)

Edited July 1, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Stigweard]

The meaning of the characters. For studying the roots of the characters, it is fine. However, when they were putted into application, especially in classic text, they have special meanings.

 

FYI...

Title: 源 = 氵(water) + 原(origin)

源 = the source of the water; where the water was originated.

The final meaning of the 源: the source.

 

Line 1: 沖 = 氵(water) + 中(center)

沖 = the water flows in the center.

沖 is equivalent to 盅(utensil) in classic text

 

Line 2: 淵 = 氵(water) + yuān

淵: deep water; abyss

 

Line 7: 湛 = 氵(water) + 甚(extreme)

湛: deep(in classic text)

You don't see the profound implication that this chapter is all about water?? That's ok. It works for me and brings the chapter to life IMO.

 

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I'd like to put my 2 cents in here as well:

 

 

Chapter Four [my own translation]

 

01 道沖,而用之,

dào chōng, ér yòng zhī,

All is immersed in Tao, as a result being useful is it's function and character and should be made use of

 

02 或不盈。

huò bù yíng。

This way it will not overflow

 

 

The imagery here is that Tao is infused, like a tea bag between heaven and earth. Basically, it is present, thereby it's function is to be utilized.

 

The middle character in line 02 generally negates whatever comes after it so = not overflow. The first of that line generally = maybe, probably.

 

Seems that this line is more revealing that all is immersed in Tao and It's use is to be used. Much like excess energy in parts of the body can cause illnesses if the energy just sits there.. if it does not move it just "overflows" so it must be used as that is "what it does."

 

 

 

03 淵兮,

yuān xí,

So profound and deep!

 

04 似萬物之宗。

sì wàn wù zhī zōng。

Like this, the myriad things have been revealed

 

 

revealed through Tao being used, as it's character is simply being abundantly useful, much like sexual energy which can build up and overflow when not utilized for higher spiritual/mental purpose.

 

I find it interesting that Lao Tzu puts some passion in his voice! The character 兮 is an expression like "oh my god!." So it's like "oh my god its DEEP." This is using Tao, no? Letting it run so it doesn't overflow

 

05 挫其銳,

cuò qí ruì,

Putting the clever back in their place

 

 

06 解其紛,

jiě qí fēn,

Uncomplicating the confused

 

07 和其光,

hé qí guāng,

Bringing harmony to the overzealous

 

 

08 同其塵。

tóng qí chén。

Grounding them and reconnecting them to the earth

 

 

This is the way the Tao changes things so it does not overflow -- its energy goes into these things. In a way it does overflow in that it's abundance manifests in overpowering these things which have fallen out of harmony with it, much like people will do to try bring the wayward back to a place where they can "be on the same page" and communicate .

 

 

 

09 湛兮

zhàn xí

Oh, the profound depth!

 

10 似或存。

sì huò cún。

Though also alive

 

11 吾不知誰之子，

wǔ bù zhī shuí zhī zi,

I don’t concern myself with who is the favourite child

 

 

12 象帝之先。

xiàng dì zhī xiān。

The manifestation, expression, and appearance of the Divine takes precedence.

 

 

The last two lines makes sense this way to me based on they way they contrast with previous chapters. It may not be exact and literal, but I feel like the many poetic sensibilities allow for this interpretation just as well. After all, everybody says the Chinese writing evokes many things surface and subtle. I think it's fair to put it this way since the usual translation "I don't know who's child it is" is still there. However, I think the usual translation misses the light of previous chapters which continues reflect on/off words following them. There are running themes at play which I believe tie into the imagery of following stanzas.

Edited July 25, 2012 by Harmonious Emptiness

[ChiDragon]

[Stosh]

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Guessing the character sequence goes left to right

Why didnt you say that it meant

This way it will not be full?

The difference then being that by making use of the tao

its potential usefulness remains fresh

 

Rather than being a rewording of "use it or lose it"

Stosh

 

Either way the meaning is the same. Why wouldn't we want something to be completely full? Because then it can spill/overflow.

 

The character 盈 is a picture of a "shallow container" underneath a symbol for "go" within a symbol meaning "as it turns out/ and then."

 

 

After all, when reading Chinese, you're basically presented a set of pictures, and you have to figure out what those pictures represented to the person who put them there that way. So context is very helpful, but they are also quite open ended in a way that leaves the reader to see a larger context of it all, since the pictures sort of draw the context, like "a shallow container, going going going, and then!"

Edited July 26, 2012 by Harmonious Emptiness

[ChiDragon]

[Harmonious Emptiness]

或: or

不: not

盈: full

 

 

The character 不(bu) will negate the character 盈(full).

 

The actual translation should read:

或"不盈": or not full.

If you want. Others besides myself have used "overflowing."

For an English person, "full" just means full, it does not really carry the connotation of "overflowing" to the same degree that it can for a Chinese reader who sees both "full" and "overflowing" in the same word.

Edited July 26, 2012 by Harmonious Emptiness

[ChiDragon]

If you want. Others besides myself have used "overflowing."

For an English person, "full" just means full, it does not really carry the connotation of "overflowing" to the same degree that it can for a Chinese reader who sees both "full" and "overflowing" in the same word.

 

Full is full;

Overflow is overflow.

When it was full may not be overflow.

However, when it was too full then it may be overflow.

 

 

This is not an argument here. It is only a manner of who was reading the text. It makes a lot of difference between a Chinese and a non-Chinese that read the Chinese text. I think you did ask me how to read Classic Chinese once before. I thought you have some faith in me.

 

PS...

Let's not play copy cats here to learn somebody else's mistakes. Please read my signature.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Full is full;

Overflow is overflow.

When it was full may not be overflow.

However, when it was too full then it may be overflow.

 

 

This is not an argument here. It is only a manner of who was reading the text. It makes a lot of difference between a Chinese and a non-Chinese that read the Chinese text. I think you did ask me how to read Classic Chinese once before. I thought you have some faith in me.

 

PS...

Let's not play copy cats here to learn somebody else's mistakes. Please read my signature.

 

It's okay Chi. I know that you like things to be one way and feel only one way is the correct way. This is why at least %50 of your posts get derided for their apparent authority only to be "missing the forest for the trees." This is not how I plan to approach this text.

 

 

here are some other links for the character:

 

notice that the first Classical meaning at the top here is "surplus"

http://www.alice-dsl.net/taijiren/4_ying2_m7474.htm

 

All etymologies include "overflowing" for this character.

 

As you have said before, you have to take in the rest of the context to know which words are useable in the many possibilities for each character. This not just reading Chinese, it's reading Taoist scripture which is often characterized by its subtlety.

 

I don't see the point of why you're pushing this one. The meaning works in English while maintaining more of the meaning of the character without loosing the meaning of the idea. Thus, it works for my purposes.

 

Btw, I didn't ask for you teach me Classical Chinese, just said thanks for the help. Again, thanks for the help, but I'm not going to get into this foolish cat and mouse game with you. I've seen how you communicate in the TTC forum and have yet to see many of your bold statements be worth more than reducing statements to dry "correct" yet incomplete understanding.

[ChiDragon]

notice that the first Classical meaning at the top here is "surplus"

http://www.alice-dsl...ying2_m7474.htm

 

I see where the misunderstanding was coming from. "Overflow" was a big mistake in the original translation. This character was never meant to be "overflow" in the past nor in the present.

 

 

PS....

This will be my last response to any of your translations.

[lienshan]

This will be my last response to any of your translations.

The character occurs in the Guodian Tao Te Ching version of chapter 45 where Laozi made a lot of contrasts;

that'll say the character 盈 in pre-Qin classical chinese meant the opposite of the character 沖

 

沖 meant according to Nina Correa: rinse with water, make empty (that which is constantly being emptied)

 

盈 should thus have meant: make full (that which is constantly being filled)

[ChiDragon]

The character occurs in the Guodian Tao Te Ching version of chapter 45 where Laozi made a lot of contrasts;

that'll say the character 盈 in pre-Qin classical chinese meant the opposite of the character 沖

 

沖 meant according to Nina Correa: rinse with water, make empty (that which is constantly being emptied)

 

盈 should thus have meant: make full (that which is constantly being filled)

 

As I had told you from the beginning, you have never learned the Chinese the correct way. Please don't learn your Chinese from her....!!!

 

盈 means FULL. Period. It is not "to make it full".

 

Only a fool would "that which is constantly being filled" to spill to fit the definition that you want.

 

Now, come on. Where is your sense of logic....???

[Marblehead]

Where is your sense of logic....???

It's in my pocket with my other cents.

[lienshan]

you have never learned the Chinese the correct way

道沖而用之有弗盈也 is the oldest (Mawangdui version of chapter 4 line 1

 

You know modern Han-dynasty and foreward chinese, but are unable to read classical pre-Han chinese.

So I'll explain to you how to read the line above:

 

The 也 character signals in this case a subordinate verb clause; I show you with commas:

 

道 , 沖而用之 , 有弗盈

 

The main clause is simple: Tao, .... , has not to be filled.

 

The subordinate clause means: when emtied and being used

 

A few details:

 

用之 ... 之 after a verb 用 was in classical used to create an adverbial phrase; litteral translated 'made usefull'

 

有弗盈 ... the negative 弗 marks 盈 as an objective verb; litteral translated 'has not its filling'

The 'its' comes from an by regular rule omitted 之 character after the negative 弗

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Sorry to let it out like that Chi, but we can't have a discussion if you won't at least try employing "in my opinion/it appears to me that..." and or a reason.

 

道沖而用之有弗盈也 is the oldest (Mawangdui version of chapter 4

 

Line 1

 

道 , 沖而用之 , 有弗盈

 

 

有 is a hand, so "has no overflowing" from 有弗盈

later was written 或不盈, "protected from overflowing" would be the better way to say it in English (imo) since 或 is "then" but is shown by a person speaking while holding a halberd spear.. being the one who makes it "then" I guess.

 

Holding/grasping, vs someone tellin' you...

[ChiDragon]

Holding/grasping, vs someone tellin' you...

 

The problem, here, was the won't let go of the holding/grasping by not listening to someone telling you. I did give my reasons but it was gone with wind and passed by your ears.

[Marblehead]

Hehehe. Sounds like some Confucians having a discussion.

 

You know, like: "What is the proper shade of yellow?"

Edited July 27, 2012 by Marblehead