[TTC Study] Chapter 4 of the Tao Teh Ching

[rene]

Sometimes when I'm drunk, I sit under the stars and think that I'm thinking.

[Marblehead]

Sometimes when I'm drunk, I sit under the stars and think that I'm thinking.

I don't have to get drunk for that to happen.

[flowing hands]

CHAPTER 4

The Dao is forever like an unfathomable empty space.

If used, it can never be used up.

It is the source of the Ten Thousand Things.

Look with your heart, see its form in the glare,

be at one with the dust of the Earth, simplify your nature.

For it is ever present, hidden in the depths of the myriad things.

I don't know from whence it came, but it is great.

 

Of course I'm biased, but I think this makes so much more sense than the other translations! It is telling us about Li Erh's understanding of the nature of the universe, the way to find its secrets and real understanding through self realization and cultivation of the Dao.

[Marblehead]

Yes, that is a nice translation. Thanks.

[flowing hands]

CHAPTER 14

Look, it can never be seen, for it has no form.

Listen, it can never be heard, it is beyond sound.

Grasp, it can never be held, it is intangible.

Although it can never be seen, heard or held, its spirit is always there.

For it is formed from nothing and so returns to nothing.

It is beyond description,

But it is the Mother of the Ten Thousand Things.

It has no beginning and no end, but it is great.

Stay with this (in your heart) the ancient Dao,

but move with the present.

Knowing the Dao is the ancient beginning of all things.

 

An expansion of chapter four a bit more explanation of 'emptiness' and 'fullness' which are one.

[Marblehead]

 

An expansion of chapter four a bit more explanation of 'emptiness' and 'fullness' which are one.

Nice translation, I think.

 

Yes, fullness requires emptiness in order to become whatever it becomes. But then, emptiness is not really empty because it is full of potential.

 

Hehehe. This chapter (4) sure is getting a workout.

[Guest RBSA]

It says Tao is the father of all things . Interesting isn ' t it how Jesus preached something similar and now his religion speaks the same .

[Marblehead]

It says Tao is the father of all things . Interesting isn ' t it how Jesus preached something similar and now his religion speaks the same .

Tao gave birth to One. Tao is a Mother!

[Guest RBSA]

Tao is Holy Trinity dear MarbleHead .

 

In the beginning there was Tao .No genre . No male or female . Tao gave birth to 2 Saints next . So they can give birth to others . All of us are born in sins except this Holy Trinity .

 

It is spoken about Holy Trinity in Taoism as in other religions as well .

 

Love and Light .

[Guest RBSA]

Tao is it . it is not Tao .

Edited August 24, 2012 by RBSA

[flowing hands]

"All of us are born in sins except this Holy Trinity ."

 

This is typical religious nonsense

[Marblehead]

Tao is Holy Trinity dear MarbleHead .

 

In the beginning there was Tao .No genre . No male or female . Tao gave birth to 2 Saints next . So they can give birth to others . All of us are born in sins except this Holy Trinity .

 

It is spoken about Holy Trinity in Taoism as in other religions as well .

 

Love and Light .

Hi RBSA,

 

If you are sincerely trying to learn about Taoism you must first, while on this forum, set aside your Christian beliefs. While it is true that many aspects of Christianity are compatable with Taoism the roots of the two belief systems are very different.

 

Taoism does not have a god. Taoism does not have a holy trinity. To try to link Christian root concepts with Taoism will get many of our members all over your butt. You already have a couple about ready to pounce.

 

Please save yourself the pain and if you truely are interested in Taoism then ask some questions, don't be telling us what Christianity teaches because we don't care about that and we will likely be telling you that you are totally confused.

 

Please learn the lesson before you try to teach it. Thanks.

[dynamictao]

RBSA, maybe you are talking about the basic philosophical foundation that

could be linked to the early Greek philosophy - before the story of personified God was created.

I see your point, but it is impossible to discuss.

Peace, harmony, and ...

[lienshan]

And yes, the bathwater. I always drain mine out after I am finished with my bath.

But I have become a part of that bathwater after the bath is finished.

 

道沖而用之有弗盈也 (the Mawangdui line 1 of chapter 4)

 

If Tao is applied to the bathwater there will be no overflowing.

 

 

I'll spare you for the grammatical details

[Marblehead]

道沖而用之有弗盈也 (the Mawangdui line 1 of chapter 4)

 

If Tao is applied to the bathwater there will be no overflowing.

 

 

I'll spare you for the grammatical details

Hehehe. You're just not going to give up with that bathwater, are you?

 

Yes, if one does not over-fill the bath tub then there will be no over-flowing when one immerses themself in the tub.

 

But I think that Lao Tzu really wasn't intending to talk about bathwater.

 

Henricks' translation of that line reads:

 

"The Way is empty; Yet when you use it, you never need fill it again."

 

Now, as for the bathtub, if the bathtub is empty there is no way in hell that anyone will be able to take a bath.

 

And even if there had been water in it from someone else's bath I doubt that I would want to get in it and take a bath after they had finished. And eventually the water will evaporate. You will need to fill it again.

 

But then, the bath tub's water is a very poor metaphor for Tao. With the tub water we are talking about one of the Ten Thousand Things whereas with Tao we are talking about unlimited potential.

 

We can continue to discuss this if you wish. I'm not trying to be "right", I just enjoy disagreeing with you now and again.

[dawei]

Hehehe. You're just not going to give up with that bathwater, are you?

 

I think your criticism is valid... but 'water' holds some primordial concept which may be more metaphor. I could mean 'vapor-like' ; aka, spirit... I know you don't like to go there but I am just sharing something I think may be an early thought.

[Marblehead]

I think your criticism is valid... but 'water' holds some primordial concept which may be more metaphor. I could mean 'vapor-like' ; aka, spirit... I know you don't like to go there but I am just sharing something I think may be an early thought.

Sure, go there. All thoughts are valid until tested for validity.

 

This is why I don't argue against people who speak of 'their' religion. Where I will argue is when they test their beliefs, find them unsupportable but still hold to them because they have nothing else to hold to.

[dawei]

Sure, go there. All thoughts are valid until tested for validity.

 

This is why I don't argue against people who speak of 'their' religion. Where I will argue is when they test their beliefs, find them unsupportable but still hold to them because they have nothing else to hold to.

 

Here is something I have in my 'notes' of various readings:

 

Lingshujing 靈樞經: apocryphal text of unknown date:

“Great One (太一) is the honorific style (zi 字) given to water.

 

This explains the very thorough cosmology found in the Guodian Bamboo, Tai Yi Sheng Shui...

 

I have often thought that 'water' may be ancient thought of as vapor.... ergo Qi.

 

If this were the case, then the metaphor of water (in You-state) is to be understood as Qi... and Qi is the most often described in cosmology.

[lienshan]

Henricks' translation of that line reads:

 

"The Way is empty; Yet when you use it, you never need fill it again."

 

The Tao that can be spoken of isn't the empty Tao

 

Most of Laozi's opening lines are special syntaxes and this is no exception:

The exposure of an object that isn't the subject was done by placing the character in front

and repeating the character by a 之 placed behind the verb of the sentence. That'll say:

 

道沖而用之有弗盈也 is equal to 沖而用道有弗盈也

 

The character 而 meant If, when its position was behind the subject of the sentence.

 

The 也 character marks 有弗盈 as a subordinate then clause.

 

So when you sink Tao into your bathtub's bathwater there will be no overflowing,

because Tao isn't matter or mass ... which isn't equal to Tao being empty.

Edited May 24, 2013 by lienshan

[Marblehead]

Hehehe. There is a saying (paraphrased): "Don't throw the child out with the bathwater."

 

I need to somehow get you out of the bathtub. Hehehe.

 

I got it!!! Tao is my bubble bath soap!!!!

[lienshan]

I got it!!! Tao is my bubble bath soap!!!!

 

Your bubble bath soap has mass that'll say a body

and will therefore cause owerflowing when sunk in your bathtub bathwater!

 

The chapter 4 opening line tells that Tao has no body

and the other lines explore if the bodyless Tao can be considered the Spirit?

 

The Spirit is taboo to you so I'll spare you for a translation of the other lines

[Marblehead]

Actually, a time or two I have considered "Chi" to be synonymous with "spirit".

 

But true, bubblebath soap does have mass therefore it could not be synonymous with "Tao" or "spirit".

 

It is extremely difficult, IMO, to speak of a non-thing. Yes, I know, people do it all the time. I just find it difficult.

[dynamictao]

This is my new interpretation (in TTC: An Ultimate Translation):

 

道沖，而用之又弗盈也。

 

Tao pours down upon us; however,

However, when received and used, it does not brim over.[1]

 

Tao never become full.

[1] The word 冲 means showering with water as in making tea, etc. Tao shows down on us, but will not make us (as vessels of Tao) full. When a vessel is full, it is no longer useful as a vessel.

Edited May 25, 2013 by dynamictao

[Marblehead]

Does that mean I have to empty my cup occasionally?

[lienshan]

Actually, a time or two I have considered "Chi" to be synonymous with "spirit".

 

It is extremely difficult, IMO, to speak of a non-thing. Yes, I know, people do it all the time.

 

Laozi, Zhuangzi and I have no problems with speaking of the Spirit

 

Laozi said that the Spirit of the valley never dies.

Zhuangzi talked about the pipes of Earth.

I say that my speaking is the sound of air pressed through the hole formed by my lips.

 

We are all three referring to the I Ching Shuo Gua §6 definition of the Spirit: 神也者妙萬物而為言者也

 

The Spirit is a single ten thousand things that has been speaking.

 

So when I peeped the next five characters of this chapter four:

 

淵 abyss

呵 laughing sound

佁 foolish

萬 ten thousand

物 things

 

then there was no doubt in my mind concerning what's the subject of this "bodyless Tao" chapter

Edited May 26, 2013 by lienshan