[TTC Study] Chapter 4 of the Tao Teh Ching

[dawei]

But we weren't here to think them (deities) up before we were here.

 

That was not the point... Dao was before them.

 

We don't need to be before them to understand that Dao was before them and we are them...

Edited January 15, 2014 by dawei

[Marblehead]

Of course Dao was before them. Dao was (and still is) before everything. Dao gave birth to One.

[Marblehead]

Of course, history doesn't change but it can tell us about the past.

And that is why I protest any time someone says that we should forget the past. We need to understand the past so that we can know why we are what we are today.

[dawei]

Dao gave birth to One.

 

I'm thinking it gave rise to ONEness... but we're getting off chapters

[110576_1494798793]

@Zhe: Nice translation. I like it.

 

Thanks dawei.

 

The second line makes me think about the recent post by D.B. on perpetual potential; that potential is all there was in the beginning and all there is... it rings of the meaning here: Dao pours forth but never empties; never requires to be filled.

 

To me, the Dao seems to be like a high pressure system that never collapses. Chapter 14 sort of touches on that, in that, like an area of pressure that is higher than its surroundings, the Dao can’t be seen, heard or felt, only its affects can be observed. This chapter, 4, says it is so evident, yet so hidden (in my opinion, lol!)

 

A low pressure area, on the other hand, can be seen, heard and felt where it is because it has such a direct affect on its surroundings, and unlike the Dao, a low pressure area sucks in its surroundings, as if it is taking everything away, not adding to it (think hurricanes, cyclones, tornadoes and waterspouts).

 

Could you please link to the post by D.B you mention? It sounds interesting.

 

And the other issue I often think about is the meaning that Dao is prior to anything we can think of, even deities.

 

Yes, some translators like Legge, Mabry and Mitchell say in this chapter the Dao is older than God (I’m assuming the Judeo-Christian god) but if gods have to be mentioned in a translation of this chapter then I like the way Byrn (?) does it –

 

I don't know who gave birth to it. It is older than the concept of God.

 

That version still doesn’t get rid of the Christianised concept of the Dao as ‘the God’, though, because Christians could argue that their god never had a concept of ‘god’ because their god was the first god and is the only god. Oh well…

 

But yes, I am also sure Laozi meant he believed the Dao existed before anything, maybe even eternally before anything because the Dao goes out and by going out, returns.

[Marblehead]

I'm thinking it gave rise to ONEness... but we're getting off chapters

Hehehe. We get off topic around here all the time.

[Marblehead]

I wonder if, in Lao Tzu's mind, the word that we see translated as "God" so often is not his understanding of "One".

 

Tao gave birth to One. Therefore Tao would have existed even before One (God).

[ChiDragon]

Good analogy and logical reasoning.

The last line of Chapter 4 supports your analogy.

Edited January 16, 2014 by ChiDragon

[110576_1494798793]

I'm thinking it gave rise to ONEness... but we're getting off chapters

 

 

I wonder if, in Lao Tzu's mind, the word that we see translated as "God" so often is not his understanding of "One".

 

Tao gave birth to One. Therefore Tao would have existed even before One (God).

 

 

Good analogy and logical reasoning.

 

The last line of Chapter 4 supports your analogy.

 

I remember years ago, before my first reading of the Dao De Jing, looking up at the sky and thinking, "Wow, I'm feeling a connection with the Universe! I can see my place in it..." Then some of the latest news stories popped into my head, completely uninvited, and my next thought was, "Oh crap, I don't even want to be associated with this Universe, let alone be one with it!"

 

But since reading Loazi's book (or whoever's; the author or redactor doesn't hold as much importance as the message) I can again say "Wow, I'm feeling a connection with the Universe! I can see my place in it..." and by my actions (or non-actions; funny how everything can be seen from two sides and still make sense after reading chapter 2) I can make a difference and and maybe the people that I interact with will do some of what I do (or don't do) and start a chain reaction and slowly make this a Universe one to feel good about associating with. Or at least the infinitesimally small bit we inhabit.

 

I was just reading the above quotes and thinking, "I wonder if Laozi could have been a naturalistic pantheist..." There is actually a website about naturalistic/scientific pantheism and one of their principles is "There is a single kind of substance, energy/matter, which is vibrant and infinitely creative in all its forms. Body and mind are indivisibly united."

 

It was just a thought that popped into my head that I thought was worth sharing, based on the talk of Dao, gods and deities.

[ChiDragon]

"naturalistic pantheist"
I don't see how can these two words be logically linked together. If Loa Zi was a naturist, then he would not and cannot be a pantheist. Thus Lao Zi is an atheist indeed. He sees Tao as a "thing" but not deity nor god. There are many chapters in the TTC can support this.

Edited January 17, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

It's really regrettable but I think I would have to agree with ChiDragon here. He just doesn't seem to have been concerned with religion. If memory serves me well any religion of his time would have been animistic, although he does mention spirits which I would guess to be related to ancestor worship.

Edited January 17, 2014 by Marblehead

[110576_1494798793]

"naturalistic pantheist"

I don't see how can these two words be logically linked together. If Loa Zi was a naturist, then he would not and cannot be a pantheist. Thus Lao Zi is an atheist indeed. He sees Tao as a "thing" but not deity nor god. There are many chapters in the TTC can support this.

 

A naturalistic pantheist is someone who reveres the entire Universe; all of Nature, including themselves. They don't believe in a god per-se. Here’s a link to part of a website run by a group who see themselves as naturalistic pantheists. If I was to write anything about them it would just be a cut and paste.

 

http://www.pantheism.net/beliefs.htm

 

I agree that there doesn’t seem to be anything in Laozi’s writings to suggest he worshipped the Dao as a creative entity. However, he does give the Dao femaleness and a sense of mothering, so by personifying it I’m not sure he saw it as just a thing in the sense that the sun is just a thing or a rock is just a thing. Also, by giving the Dao a female aspect he is one up on the makers of the Abrahamic religions in that they gave their mothering role to a ‘male’ that acts very much like a male.

 

What do you think Laozi’s definition of ‘atheist’ would be, given the religious beliefs of his culture? It's just an interesting thought...

 

The main point of my post, which probably (obviously, LOL!) wasn’t clear, was Laozi’s view of Dao and De and whether or not his understanding of it would cause him to be in agreement with the website statement of "There is a single kind of substance, energy/matter, which is vibrant and infinitely creative in all its forms. Body and mind are indivisibly united."

 

It's really regrettable but I think I would have to agree with ChiDragon here. He just doesn't seem to have been concerned with religion. If memory serves me well any religion of his time would have been animistic, although he does mention spirits Whick I would guess to be related to ancestor worship.

 

Yes, there was no mention of him following a religion as we see it by him in the Dao De Jing and animism was common in ancient China. That’s one reason I find it hard to see him as 100% atheist in the modern sense we see it as. Whether or not he was doesn’t make any difference to me, though, because I don’t see the Dao De Jing as a source of religious inspiration but as a manual for keeping out of trouble.

 

I actually meant naturalistic pantheism in the way that everything is connected because it all arose from the Dao. If there was a way to write pantheism with the theism…

 

Laozi mentions the Dao as a mother, so if there is one mother then everything that issues forth from that mother is related. If you also were to see the mother in a parental role, then you would have a much easier life if you followed the parental rules of that mother.

 

So I guess what my original intention to write was more like-

 

From seeing the Universe in (possibly) the same perspective as Laozi, I have come to better see the inter-relationship of the world around me and I understand that by my following the ‘rules of nature’ (going with the flow) my life will have less moments of stress, and also by following those rules I could be an example to others who may also do the same which could have the knock-on effect of making my life even more trouble free.

 

I have probably muddied the waters even more. But...

 

…O.K, now I’ve had my turn at going way off topic, LOL! I’ll try harder not to next time…

[ChiDragon]

I agree that there doesn’t seem to be anything in Laozi’s writings to suggest he worshipped the Dao as a creative entity. However, he does give the Dao femaleness and a sense of mothering, so by personifying it I’m not sure he saw it as just a thing in the sense that the sun is just a thing or a rock is just a thing. Also, by giving the Dao a female aspect he is one up on the makers of the Abrahamic religions in that they gave their mothering role to a ‘male’ that acts very much like a male.

 

What do you think Laozi’s definition of ‘atheist’ would be, given the religious beliefs of his culture? It's just an interesting thought...

 

The Dao femaleness was only one of Lao Zi's descriptions which portray Tao has a great potential power to create. Literally speaking, the creative power of Tao was analogous to the reproductive capability of a mother. It was an example given by Lao Zi to show that Tao is a divine female but not as a permanent gender per se.

Edited January 17, 2014 by ChiDragon

[110576_1494798793]

 

The Dao femaleness was only one of Lao Zi's descriptions which portray Tao has a great potential power to create. Literally speaking, the creative power of Tao was analogous to the reproductive capability of a mother. It was an example given by Lao Zi to show that Tao is a divine female but not as a permanent gender per se.

 

Thanks ChiDragon. I know Laozi was only personifying the Dao, giving it female attributes, not saying it was literally female.

[Marblehead]

... because I don’t see the Dao De Jing as a source of religious inspiration but as a manual for keeping out of trouble.

100% agreement here. IMO, this is the first principle to understand.

 

So I guess what my original intention to write was more like-

 

From seeing the Universe in (possibly) the same perspective as Laozi, I have come to better see the inter-relationship of the world around me and I understand that by my following the ‘rules of nature’ (going with the flow) my life will have less moments of stress, and also by following those rules I could be an example to others who may also do the same which could have the knock-on effect of making my life even more trouble free.

Absolutely!!!

[dust]

Well, I tried reading all 9 pages of this thread to see if I could learn anything, but a lot of it is off-topic or argument, so I probably missed some things. I'll just post my translation, and anyone who wants to comment shall do so... and anyone who thinks I'm just nitpicking or wasting time can save their fingers some effort -- I'm well aware that it may all be a big waste of time

 

道沖而用之有弗盈也 The Way flows, never empty never full,

淵呵佁萬物之宗 Boundless! as ancestor of all things,

銼亓兌 Blunting edges,

解亓芬 Releasing fragrances,

和亓光 Softening light,

同亓塵 One with the dust,

湛呵佁或存 Deep! it seems to be,

吾不知亓誰之子也 I know not whose child it is,

象帝之先 Preceding even Ganesha

 

OK, that last line is a joke. Though the final meaning ends up essentially the same, it would be nice to know for sure: Did they mean "God", "the gods“, "the ancestor", "the Emperor"...?

 

 

edit: for anyone who doesn't get my side-splitter, 象 means elephant as well as like, hence elephant god/Ganesha

Edited September 3, 2014 by dustybeijing

[dawei]

These lines only seem to be "out of context" if you overlook the context that the chapter is very implicitely likening Dao to the qualities of water.

 

3 It erodes sharpness [like water],

4 It dissolves obstruction [like water],

5 It softens glare [like water],

6 It settles dust [like water].

 

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/16267-stigweards-daodejing-%26%2336947%3B%26%2324503%3B%26%2332147%3B/page__view__findpost__p__269460

 

A belated but well deserved nod to Stig's pointing out the importance of Water within the characters...

 

Thomas Michael's The Pristine Dao:

 

In two closely related passages from the Zhuangzi and the Liezi, the watery environment preceding the formation of the world is given a more complete depiction. The Zhuangzi passage is especially noteworthy not only in that it regards these watery worlds as in some sense cosmologically prior to the formation of Heaven and Earth, but also because it makes clear that these prior realms continue to be accessible to certain human beings. To gain access to these realms allows one to attain a physiological experience of the pristine Dao.

. . .

The Zhuangzi appears to be partial in its descriptions of the Nine Abysses; only three are there presented. The same story is given in a very slightly altered form in the Huangdi chapter of the Liezi; the only significant difference between the two versions is that the Liezi enumerates all Nine Abysses.

A gathering of whirlpools forms an abyss, a gathering of still waters forms an abyss, a gathering of flowing water forms an abyss, a gathering of flood waters forms an abyss, a gathering of irrigation waters forms an abyss, a gathering of cavern springs forms an abyss, a gathering of returning waters forms an abyss, a gathering of marsh waters forms an abyss, a gathering of collected waters forms an abyss. These are the Nine Abysses.

The addition of the six abysses not named in the Zhuangzi serves to fill out the complete description of the cosmogonic environment. The generative potency of these waters is constantly underscored as the vital and material potentiality in the generation of all life, the qi as the breath of the cosmic Dao. These early Daoist writings demonstrate a sustained effort to control discursively the periods preceding the formation of Heaven and Earth. Instead of a murky, watery chaos that roughly describes the beginnings of the world, these writings present specific representations together with designations of, for example, nine watery abysses. These depictions characterize cosmogonic origins in specific ways that have deep ramifications for how human beings are to understand and manage the manifest world. They express a rejection of traditional notions of hierarchy and the current systems of value and structures of social practice. The world envisioned by the early Daoists writers is ultimately resolved in a fundamental unity, rather than in fundamental structures of hierarchical dualisms.

The detailed descriptions of the watery abysses play a definite and necessary part in their cosmogonies, which strive to bring out into clear light the relationship between the pristine Dao and the manifest world of human existence. This posited relationship keeps open the possibility of soteriological reversion to a direct identification with that Dao through physical embodiment. This route from here to there leads through the realms of the watery abysses as the pure potentiality standing between the Dao and the world.

There are further important connections between these passages from Zhuangzi and those earlier cited from Laozi 4. Three important terms are shared by both, namely “overflow” (chong), “abyss” (yuan), and Early Daoism and Cosmogony “ancestor” (zong). Both sets of passages envision the Dao in its relation with water, and, at the same time, affirm that through this waterlike quality the Dao is able to give life. The Laozi writes that “the Dao overflows” (dao chong), while the Zhuangzi passage names the watery realm as the “Supreme Overflow” (tai chong).

The watery environment in both passages is described as an abyss (yuan), and the Zhuangzi further cites nine of them. Finally, the Laozi says that “the Dao is the ancestor of the ten thousand things,” while the Zhuangzi passage, describing the unity of Huzi and the Dao, says, “I revealed to him what it was like before I had emerged from my ancestor.” Without delving into the issue of textual borrowing, it is nonetheless clear that both are calling upon the self-same body of technical vocabulary and general images specifically identified with early Daoist discourse. Both, furthermore, present alternative, even subversive, perspectives on human origins by discarding commonsense notions of human lineage, seen in their unexpected use of the term “ancestor,” that lie at the core of both the Confucian and the ancestral ideology current in early China.

[ChiDragon]

 

象帝之先 Preceding even Ganesha

 

OK, that last line is a joke. Though the final meaning ends up essentially the same, it would be nice to know for sure: Did they mean "God", "the gods“, "the ancestor", "the Emperor"...?

 

 

edit: for anyone who doesn't get my side-splitter, 象 means elephant as well as like, hence elephant god/Ganesha

 

My source says, 帝 could be mean the gods or the ancestor. However, it seems to be meant "the gods" here.

 

象 means "seems like" here. It couldn't be meant "elephant".

 

[dawei]

My source says, 帝 could be mean the gods or the ancestor. However, it seems to be meant "the gods" here.

 

Most anciently, Di is a "celestial Thearch resident at the pole" [1]

 

Oracle bone divination was astronomy-driven... the "Di-sacrifice" was to the celestial gods. The 'highest god' was Tai Yi... but that is another thread.

 

象 means "seems like" here. It couldn't be meant "elephant".

 

This was a joke...elephant god/Ganesha

 

 

[1] Link

[Marblehead]

 

My source says, 帝 could be mean the gods or the ancestor. However, it seems to be meant "the gods" here.

 

象 means "seems like" here. It couldn't be meant "elephant".

 

And naturally I would prefer the word "elephant".

[Marblehead]

This was a joke...elephant ...

But I will seriously consider it because elephants were already on the planet before man was.

[ChiDragon]

◎ 象

as　　　elephant　　　shape　　　imitate　　　seem　　　look as if

Ref: 象

[Marblehead]

So we could transliterate that last line as saying:

 

The Tao seems to have existed even before the elephants.

[ChiDragon]

So we could transliterate that last line as saying:

 

The Tao seems to have existed even before the elephants.

Even though it is true but that it was not what the phrase said.

 

Let's settle this once and for all.

象seems

帝: the gods

之先 before that.

 

象帝之先

Tao seems(象) to be existed before the gods .

 

PS...

May we say that the gods are before the elephants. The gods should be above the elephants...???

Edited December 18, 2014 by ChiDragon

[dust]

Well.. you've convinced me. It's definitely about elephants.