The Enneagram Thread

[karen]

Safe to say that quick and active vata minds are well represented on this board!

[sean]

just had a look at this test (the advanced enneagram test) and came out mostly 9 followed closely by 5... here's the table I got in the end:

I pegged you as a 5 on your first post. It's possible you are a 9 though, do you have trouble giving clear, direct yes or no responses even when called for? I have this 9 friend, it's like pulling teeth talking to him sometimes:

 

Sean: Hey dude, so you coming this weekend?

Mike: Uhh... yeah, I think... I'm pretty sure. Most likely. (seriously, it's this bad)

Sean: Can I get a yes or no Mike, I need to know if you are coming.

Mike: Yeah I can't really see why not.

Sean: Mike, yes or no.

Mike: Uhhh...

 

 

Sean

[freeform]

.

Edited December 18, 2019 by freeform

[ThirstyTraveler]

I took that test and came out with the similar results as Freeform.

 

type score type behavior motivation

5 60 I must be knowledgable and independent to be happy.

9 50 I must be peaceful and easy to get along with to be happy.

6 48 I must be secure and safe to be happy.

4 46 I must avoid painful feelings to be happy.

1 40 I must be perfect and good to be happy.

8 29 I must be strong and in control to be happy.

2 28 I must be helpful and caring to be happy.

7 17 I must be high and entertained to be happy.

3 16 I must be impressive and attractive to be happy.

 

I wonder what the experience of life would be like being a different type?

[Lozen]

I took the test again! And this time it said:

 

type score type behavior motivation

2 44 I must be helpful and caring to be happy.

6 42 I must be secure and safe to be happy.

8 40 I must be strong and in control to be happy.

3 39 I must be impressive and attractive to be happy.

1 38 I must be perfect and good to be happy.

7 37 I must be high and entertained to be happy.

9 35 I must be peaceful and easy to get along with to be happy.

4 31 I must avoid painful feelings to be happy.

5 31 I must be knowledgable and independent to be happy.

 

HA! I'm a 2 or a 6, not an 8! I resonate more strongly with 6 than 8, that's for sure. Will have to read more about 2 I guess... I want to be a 5 though.

 

 

Type 1 Perfectionism |||||||||||||| 54%

Type 2 Helpfulness |||||||||||||||| 62%

Type 3 Image Focus |||||||||||||| 56%

Type 4 Hypersensitivity |||||||||||| 45%

Type 5 Detachment |||||||||||| 44%

Type 6 Anxiety |||||||||||||||| 61%

Type 7 Adventurousness |||||||||||||| 53%

Type 8 Aggressiveness |||||||||||||| 57%

Type 9 Calmness |||||||||||| 50%

Edited May 24, 2006 by Lozen

[三江源]

I am a 9. and an INFJ.

 

 

I feel pretty fine about this since I feel exactly the same as I did before I found out. Which means I'm missing something, right?

[voice]

 

I am also a 5 numerologically for my name and birthday.

 

I'll have to think about this...

 

Chris

[karen]

I am a 9. and an INFJ.

I feel pretty fine about this since I feel exactly the same as I did before I found out. Which means I'm missing something, right?

 

If you use the system to understand your false belief patterns and how you habitually filter reality (I'm not picking on you.. it applies to everyone , it can be very useful beyond simply validating what you already know.

 

-Karen

[freeform]

.

Edited December 18, 2019 by freeform

[karen]

Freeform,

 

Yes, I've done a lot of the Changeworks programs, but a lot of years ago, and I remember liking Tom Condon then. Some of the tapes I've liked, although some I didn't.. some had some negative energies, just my subjective feel.

 

I studied with Jack Elias, and I like his hypnotherapy materials a lot, www.findingtruemagic.com. His book is masterful, and draws heavily on Buddhism and Taoism.

 

I remember liking Tom Condon's Enneagram material, although probably good Enneagram material can be found on the web now rather than spending a lot for videos.

 

Re. motivational patterns.. I think that when people are doing personality typing, they're usually lumping various patterns together, some which are part of the healthy genotype, and some which are part of the phenotype, the distortion of the genotype due to various stressors.

 

Maybe Sean can speak to this more than I can, because I haven't studied the Enneagram itself too deeply, only as an adjunct to other inner work. But for what it's worth, I think that to whatever greater or lesser degree a person is aware of their false ego patterns, they'll answer the questionnaires and relate to the types somewhat differently. In other words, if a person isn't aware of their conditioned mind, they might mistake those habit patterns for their healthy motivations.

 

For example, if I'm aggressive and controlling, but I see that as healthy autonomy, I might mistake the defense mechanism for a healthy motivation.

 

As people gradually strip away the layers of false ego, you see the healthy pattern emerging more clearly. But often there's quite a mix of things, and it can be a challenge to be objective enough to sort out the various elements. But that's the cutting edge where the learning is.

 

I'm sure there's Enneagram material that elaborates on the genotype/phenotype distinctions for each type (not using those terms, though). I think you can kind of just dig into it creatively and see where it takes you.

 

Karen

[sean]

4 - I must avoid painful feelings to be happy.

It just struck me that this is an IMO really poor description of a four. I've never heard the four motivation described this way. Four's frequently create melancholy, sadness all sorts of nuanced sufferings with close to conscious deliberateness as part of a larger strategy to be unique and find what's missing in any situation.

 

I am a 9. and an INFJ.

I am also an INFJ, cat. That's interesting you got INFJ as a 9 though. Myers-Briggs is measuring something different than Enneagram, but still I would peg 9's as Perceivers over Judgers ... INFP's or even ISFP's.

 

freeform, I've had some of Condon's Enneagram material on my "wishlist" for awhile now. Nice to know it's good stuff.

 

 

Sean

[freeform]

.

Edited December 18, 2019 by freeform

[sean]

Freeform, you inspired me to post excerpts from one of the best articles on the Enneagram I've read, but it's unfortunately not online anymore. This work led to a work called New Equations which is actually based out here in the Bay Area.

 

Via The Enneagram of the Body (now offline)

 

We have discovered a very interesting physical phenomena associated with the enneagram. We have observed that there are nine different and unique postural/energetic configurations which the human body will assume when physically challenged to become energetically strong. For three of them, energy emanates from the abdomen; for another three from the sternum, and energy emanates for three from the head region. These energetically activated regions allow each of us to take in or sense additional information above and beyond the normal five senses. What we have hypothesized is that this may be the basis for the enneagram and that it may go a long way to explain the differences that we observe in the nine types.

 

...

 

There are three numbers associated with each of three centers which I have called abdomen (people to people interactions), sternum (process of living), and brain (processing living) centers. In each triad there is an energetically receptive number, an energetically neutral number, which is both receptive and pro-active, and an energetically pro-active number.

 

...

 

4

 

Let's use 4 as an example of how this might work. 4 is energetically receptive and is about making a connection with someone in a way that allows emotional information to flow. We talk about that as feelings. So you could understand that if a person is an unhealthy 4, he or she might be able to use this emotional connection to manipulate people, or to vent their feelings on somebody else. However, you leave a conversation with a healthy 4 and think, "Wow! That felt good!" because you had a nice emotional interchange.

 

I once had a girlfriend who was a 4. We got into a heated exchange about our relationship that seemed, to me, to last forever, but was perhaps only an hour long. When I, a type 5, had "had enough" and told her that I had to leave, her immediate reply, in an expectant, anticipating tone of voice was, "...To be continued." At that point I realized that she had enjoyed our encounter and that it probably had not been stressful for her. She knew how to deal with feelings and emotions, so it was not a big deal for her. This is not to say that 4s have either more or deeper emotions and feelings than the rest of us, but that the other types do not have as sophisticated a mechanism for connecting with another person. Unless someones a 4, theyve have had to devise survival mechanisms around feelings and emotions which frequently involve suppression, avoidance or finding ways of dealing with them alone. It would be nice to add the skill of the 4 to our repertoires.

 

2

 

The next point is 2, which has both a receptive and pro-active component. As the 4 is skilled at making a strong emotional connection, the 2 is skilled at connecting on a current-time mental level, which we could look at in terms of words; in terms of communicating. The 2 functions in the present with very little emphasis on the past or the future. The 2 takes in information about a person with their upper abdomen and then uses their eyes to facilitate the ensuing communication. The 2s eyes are a focusing device. The 2s, along with the 1s and the 3s, are the only people who look me directly in the eye in order to get into their enneagram posture of strength. However, for the 2, it's not because he or she is a "brain" number; its because their eyes are the medium. So you characteristically see the 2 as the "bright-eyed" number.

 

When I asked a 2 acquaintance about what she does when she enters a room, she said that she makes a very quick connection with everyone in the room so that she will know who wants to talk to her without even looking at them. She likened it to having a little silver thread attached to each person. This is the very pro-active aspect of the 2. Anyone who is within the 2s vision, whether or not they desire it, has one of these "thread-like" connections attached to them. This connection allows the 2 to monitor how the other person is doing during a conversation so they can structure their end of the conversation to minimize the anxiety level of the other person. The 2s assessment skill about how the other person is receiving what they are saying is so quick that they can begin a sentence with one idea and end it with another. This does not mean that the 2 says things they do not believe, it only means they say things in such a way to keep the interchange alive.

 

One of the 2s I know says that if she happens to say something that the other person does not like, she finds a way to soften it until she feels the other persons anxiety level decrease. Her sister, who thinks Johnny Mathis is a wonderful singer, took her to one of his concerts. She made the mistake of saying she thought Johnny Mathis was "old fashioned." She said her sisters anxiety level went "off the scale". She lowered her sisters anxiety level by talking about some of the good songs he would be singing during the show. The 2s skill is not to always say the perfectly appropriate thing but rather to be able to recover from saying inappropriate things. They are able to do this because of the connection they have already established with the other person.

 

8

 

8 is the third type whose energy emanates from the lower abdomen. As the 4 is receptive and the 2 is both receptive and pro-active, the 8 is a strictly pro-active type and is the quickest reacting of all the types. 8s do something very interesting. They send out bursts of energy from their lower abdomen in order to see how people react. This burst can take the form of words or gestures. Based on the reaction they get from the energy that they send out, they know what the person theyre dealing with is "really made of"; how that person can be expected to behave when pushed. In other words, they figure out what the limits and parameters of safety are.

 

The bursts of energy can be subtle, and the female 8 will generally be more subtle than the male 8. When the male 8 wants to check out a room he is about to enter, one of the ways we have seen him do it is by opening the door with a flourish and entering like he was driven by the wind. Needless to say, everyone reacts. The female 8 might throw out a provocative statement. One of the female 8s I know has been known to say, "I'm having my period" in the middle of a conversation. That is a statement that everybody reacts to, and its just like a little explosion. So, how people react to that statement is telling for the 8.

 

The 8, most of the time, is so aware of the environment that he or she is less likely than someone of another type to get caught in a confrontational situation. They are more likely to be the one who walks into a bar, takes one look, and turns around and walks out because he or she has determined it is not safe. The rest of us have a greater likelihood of staying due to our poor ability to recognize a dangerous situation, and consequently a much higher probability of getting into trouble.

 

5

 

Type 5 is energetically receptive. Although it is a brain type like 1 and 7, none of the brain types uses any conscious brain activity when they are accessing their skill or strength.

 

For the 5, this brain activity is very much like working a jigsaw puzzle. Imagine you have partially completed a jigsaw puzzle and can therefore have somewhat of an idea of what the next piece might look like. You then go searching for that piece. The information you have allows you to quickly and effortlessly ignore all of the pieces that do not look like they are going to fit. The 5 does the same thing. He or she has a sense of what is missing. They know when information which would enable us to gain a more complete understanding of whatever we are looking at is missing. That is why the relevant piece just pops out at them when they finally find it.

 

This is what uniquely gives the 5 the perspective of an overview. They are able to "map" all of the important and relevant pieces of information pertinent to a correlated and comprehensive understanding of our reality. With the identifications, simplifications and generalizations which 5s provide, our world view becomes more complete and easier to understand.

 

Randolph Nesse, M.D., and George Williams, Ph.D., state in their book, Why We Get Sick (pg. 134), "Our ancestors of ten thousand or perhaps even fifty thousand years ago looked and acted fully human. If we could magically transport babies from that time and rear them in modern families, we could expect them to grow up into perfectly modern lawyers or farmers or athletes or cocaine addicts." This implies that the way we view the world is a consequence of learning the current socially constructed order.

 

All the types, except 5s and 1s, assemble the world through this filter alone. Everything we think about is colored by the way we were taught to view the world. This goes a long way to explain, for example, why there are frequently such large differences between the generations (the "baby boomers" can never fully relate to the people who were "depression babies," etc.) 5s, by the nature of their enneagram skill, can look at the social order from a much more objective point of view. At some deep level they know that the map which they are working on is a construct that helps explain and justify our existence. They can see its weaknesses and strengths. They know it will change with time so they are not as wedded to it as other numbers. When they see a glaring problem they frequently try to get the word out.

 

7

 

7s are energetically pro-active. Energy emanates from the center of their foreheads. 7s actively scan their environment for any potentially useful information. They are continually gathering data, piecing it together and applying it to whatever has their interest. Their focus doesnt come from a desire to create an understandable overview by identifying the important pieces in the map, as for the 5. Rather, they have this tremendous mental skill which allows them to put information to practical use in new and creative ways.

 

7s see possibilities and correlations that the rest of us frequently miss. If you want to know the best way to do something, ask a 7. I have a 7 friend who was thinking about buying a house. From a buyer's point of view, she gave me a clearer, more cogent explanation of the ins and outs of buying a house than the several real estate agents I know...and, shed only spent a month playing with it!

 

A tremendous problem solving ability gives 7s a level of self confidence when dealing with the unexpected which the rest of us lack. The world is ever-changing and no matter how much we try to foresee our future, it usually turns out differently than we've anticipated. Their problem solving skill helps prevent 7s from becoming stuck or mired in difficult situations. They do not dwell on the past or their failures as much as the other types because they're more apt to find a solution to their problem.

 

One of my 7 acquaintances, who owns a collection of cars, a truck and an airplane, had driven his 1 1/2 ton diesel pickup truck from San Diego to Arizona to get it rebuilt (because it was cheaper in Arizona!). Once it had been rebuilt he picked it up one evening and began driving it to his home in San Francisco. It broke down 20 miles into his trip. He was able to convince the mechanics to come out and fix it in the dark. Later on, in the dead of night, alone and in the middle of the desert, the injector plugs fouled and the engine died. He did not have the appropriate tools with him to make repairs. At this point many of us would have given up . . . but all his friends know that for him, the bigger the challenge, the more he likes it! He had a pair of metal shears with him and with them he fashioned a wrench out of a piece of sheet metal. Then, with a flashlight held in his teeth, using the tool he had made, he took the injector plugs out, cleaned them off with the only fluid available - starter fluid - and then replaced the injector plugs. All in all, he arrived home many hours later than planned, exhausted and kicking himself for not rebuilding the truck himself (he has a spectacular tool collection), but proud of himself for how he solved this problem. He's known as "McGuyver" by all of his friends! (McGuyver was a popular TV show about a clever person who, on each show, would get himself out of seemingly impossible and life threatening situations using great ingenuity.)

 

1

 

The 1 is a combination of receptive and pro-active energy which also emanates from the brain. 1s receptively take in the world with their eyes and filter it through their old or reptilian brain where the wisdom of our successful social survival is stored. They pro-actively project this ancient understanding out the throat just above their Adams apple. The 1 is one of only three types (1, 2 & 3) who need to look into the facilitator's eyes to access their strength.

 

The 1's focus is survival. Not just personal survival, but survival of the species. We are an advanced and interdependent social species. Our social order is very complicated and ever-changing. 1s gather the information about the underlying principles of our social order and compare it to the genetically stored wisdom of the old brain. With this additional insight they can provide us with the knowledge, wisdom, understanding and direction to help enable us to survive into the future. If you ask a 1 about how they look at it, they tend to describe it as a sense or awareness that each and every situation has a structure, reason and purpose, governed by appropriate rules, and that these rules are like the grease which helps keep the wheels of society turning.

 

My wife's mother is a 1, and once when we were in a restaurant together, our 1 1/2 year old daughter kept trying to climb up on the table. We told her three or four times to stop, but she kept doing it. Barbaras mom said, "Jenna, I want to show you something . . . I want to show you what the other children in the restaurant are doing . . . let's go around the room so we can see what the Moms and Dads and other children are doing." Then she carried her about and pointed out the waiters who were carrying food to serve, and talked to her about the parents and kids who were sitting down because they were hungry and wanted to eat their meals. When they returned, not only had they had a wonderful time together, but Jenna stopped climbing up on the table. Barbara and I would never have thought of doing something like that. It was simply a way of teaching our daughter about restaurant structure and about the rules we follow in order to enjoy a meal.

 

One of the qualities that is universally observed when talking with 1s is their sense of self assuredness about the way things ought to be. When interacting with 1s, we get a feeling that they know they are right in a way that we do not sense in any other type. It is as though they're following a script that the rest of us not only don't have, but don't even know exists. This is because they are able to access understanding that is stored in deep genetic memory which deals with our survival. They know in the core of their being that if we do not function within the appropriate structure, we run the risk of creating problems that could ultimately lead to our extinction as a species. This may be a strong statement, but if we look at the way people are relating on this highly overcrowded planet, we get an inkling about how important it is to make society work. This is not to say that people ought to have altruistic motives, but that we must recognize that it is in our own best interest to promote our survival by safeguarding the parameters of the social order.

 

...

 

6

 

6s take in information in such a way that it is easy to evaluate its integrity. Everything on this planet has an energetic configuration, even the inanimate objects such as rocks and buildings. Even though this energy is undetected by our five senses it has a definite force to it. It is this force that hits (yes, hits!) the 6.

 

The 6s ribcage and sternum is very much like a drum. The energy of everything hits it and causes a resonance inside their body. This resonance is so clean and pure that, compared to the the rest of us, 6s get the clearest picture of whatever they are paying attention to. In order to do this, they first momentarily make themselves still, very much in the same manner and with the same quality that you may have seen when observing a deer or squirrel in the wild. They make themselves available as completely as possible for what is coming into their senses.

 

This bodily process allows 6s to perceive with a level of complexity and sophistication that the rest of us frequently do not even realize exists. This stage might only last a fraction of a second, so it is easy to miss. This process gives the 6 tremendous evaluation skills. Since they sense the energy of what they are taking in, they are coming as close as a person can to sensing its essence. They can also more easily see what is out of synch or incomplete about what they are sensing. 6s, however, do not necessarily have insight into how to address the incongruity which they might find, or how to interpret the missing piece. (That is the job for the 3.)

 

It is important to say a little more about the kind of information 6s takes in. 6s are wide open to all of the information that is possible to sense. This not only includes seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching but also includes much that is unseen, untouchable, and unheard, etc.

 

Sensing the "unseen" for all of us, in our culture, is almost always discounted and ignored very early on in life and so most of us fairly quickly suppress our natural inclinations to take in information this way. However, for the 6, for whom this is a fundamental part of how they sense reality, this experience cannot be completely extinguished or completely suppressed. (This does not mean that the discounted or ignored information is not available for the other types . . . it only means that it is not given its proper importance.)

 

In our western culture, logic and science, i.e., that which can be concretely measured and logically interpreted, is emphasized. Some people learn aspects of a spiritual system - so they then have both scientific logic and a form of spirituality with which to take in the world. No matter what culture you are in, however, what is universally true is that some information is emphasized and some is discounted and ignored. What the 6 is able to do is take in all of the available information that is in front of them, no matter what culture they come from.

 

The evaluation process of the 6 does not involve the cognitive part of the brain. It involves using a template which people could also talk about in terms of intuition and insight. One of the 6s I know told me that whenever he uses his head and thinks in this comparative process, he always 'screws it up'. He said, "If I can keep my head out of the way, it works. What I do is the antonym of thinking. Thinking is described as an orderly step by step process. That is what we are taught . . . and as soon as you try to put me in it you impede me . . . mine (process) is flow and movement and rhythm, whatever you want to call it. It's a mystery to me, too. It just happens."

 

3

 

Using the information which 6s gather, 3s immediately focus on the needs, desires, goals or changes required so fully they can envision the completed picture of anything on which they are working. Then, with their tremendous focusing capability, 3s can pull together and organize the key elements needed to create the finished product.

 

How does the 3 do what they do? The word "focus" is the first thing that comes to mind when I think about it. The second thing that comes to mind which Id like to point out is that unless you are a 3, although you might understand the meaning of that word, you do not have a clue of what it means to focus with the intensity and power of a 3. Relative to the rest of us, it is so effortless for them to have all of their attention riveted on someone or something, that it is not easy for us to perceive the intensity of their focus. For example, when a 3 focuses on you in a friendly manner, you just notice that it feels pleasant and good, and it could be natural to therefore assume that you could also do this kind of focusing. This is not the case.

 

When a 3 is lead into his or her posture of enneagram strength, they present a disarmingly pleasant expression in which their whole face is lit up. They seem vibrant and alive. People are naturally attracted to this animation and expression of lifes energy. Their expression especially brings attention to the area of the eyes and cheekbones, and creates the appearance of high cheekbones, even if this is not the individuals natural bone structure. (I think the extremely appealing appearance which this creates is the reason why men and women with naturally high cheekbones are chosen by modeling and acting agencies...its an attempt to simulate the pleasing natural image of the 3.) I believe that this compelling and powerful "3" expression naturally develops out of the act of focusing on another person.

 

9

 

At this point, in order to complete the cycle, 9 becomes involved. 9s take into their body the fullest experience of what has been created and appreciate it by "being" with it...a tremendously important part of this three-part process because, without experiencing what is in front of us, how can we possibly know what we like or what we want to do next? If were closed, its hard to know whether something is worthwhile or not. 9s first take in everything non-judgmentally, appreciate it, and are then able to make these assessments.

 

The 9s also do something that most of us think we have the ability to do: being present in the moment. When asked, most of us will say that we are "present" in situations at least some of the time. It seems like such a simple thing, yet it is not. 9s open themselves up so much to experiencing the present moment that the present becomes all there is . . . all that is real. The rest of the world fades to the point that it becomes more of a concept than a reality. This extreme openness makes them far more receptive and able to take in what is in front of them without judging and categorizing.

 

Types 1 through 8 each have a preoccupation that prevents them from being present and appreciating the world as the 9 does. They can only be present in a limited way because they each continue to be connected to the literal reality of the rest of the world via their specialization or process. For example, the 5 is always searching for what is important rather than appreciating what is around them in the moment; the 7 is searching for what will solve the current problem; the 8 is constantly on alert for any changes in the environment that might signal danger; the 4 is trying to establish intimate connections; the 2 is continually evaluating how others are feeling; the 1 is always assessing how the social group is functioning; the 3 is looking for whatever is needed to finish the current project; and the 6 is sensing whatever they are paying attention to rather than to their entire surroundings. How could these people possibly fully appreciate the present moment to the exclusion of everybody and everything else?

 

 

Sean

[cheya]

*bump*

 

The last post by Sean is especially fascinating.

(Thanks Kar3n!)

 

and OP karen as well!