Over weight qigong masters?

[surfingbudda]

I'm just have a question pertaining to qigong masters and physical health. To me, reaching status of "qigong master" means one's body/mind/spirit has reached a state of harmony and balance. To me, the purpose of qigong or any healing energy art is to bring one's entire being into balance. Especially looking at Ya Mu's, "As Above As Below Law", it would seem that by bringing balance to the one's highest spirit level, intern that balance would trickle down to the layers of mind and body, or maybe it happens in the reverse( either way which works I guess ). My point to this is that I see being over weight as an obvious imbalance to the physical body level, yet we see acclaimed qigong masters, for example Bruce Franztis and I am sure others who seem to either neglect this aspect of health or place all emphasis on chi development. Isn't it the Taoist way to balance each part of the self and not to focus soley on any single part of it. I mean no disrespect to the teaching of Bruce Franztis or any other over weight qigong master for that matter. Perhaps my interpretation of health and chi is all wrong and true health comes soley through chi development and the view to keep the physical body in shape is a silly western misunderstanding? I am open to all comments and opinions on this

 

Also with my personal experience with qigong, the deeper I delved into it, the more my tolerances to different bad habits was lowered so I was forced to either suffer or change my habits. For example a month into doing wudang qigong, I found I could no longer eat particularly unhealthy things like chili dogs because it would result in very bad trips to the bath room, as well as my tolerance to things like alcohol greatly diminished. My point here is that, at least from my experience, qigong either forces or pushes someone toward the path of eating healthier and overall treating the body better as one gets more in touch with it. So to see qigong masters being over weight simply does not make sense to me.

[Sloppy Zhang]

looks

in videos that were taken recently. His teacher,

looks pretty non-fat.

 

Frantzis is an interesting case in that he's gone through a couple of serious spinal injuries, so maybe his ability to exercise in other conventional ways was diminished, but maybe his change in eating didn't? Not trying to make excuses, or rationalize, and I don't know the man, but just consider that everyone has a history.

 

was known to be a pretty big guy, yet still skilled.

 

What is healthy, what looks healthy, etc etc changes as the times change. In some cultures at some times, fat meant healthy because it means you had access to plenty of food. In modern America, fat means unhealthy because it means you're probably eating unhealthy food and lead a sedentary lifestyle.

 

But even modern days, sumo wrestlers are quite heavy, and I remember growing up kids would say someone is fat like a sumo wrestler. The assumption was "big" and "fat" meant "unhealthy", despite any athletic abilities of a sumo wrestler. (yeah, they aren't qigong, but still healthy and "big").

 

 

Personally, I agree with you- though my tolerance for unhealthy food stayed pretty high relatively far even after my start of meditation/qigong, I reached a point where unhealthy food that used to appeal to me started making me sick almost as soon as I started eating it. Sometimes I feel a bit nostalgic for the foods I used to eat, so I'll go and try them- and I learn pretty instantly that it's a bad idea. I can just feel my body go "ugh".

 

But who knows what would happen if I got access to a bunch of quality sumo diet food? Hmmmm.....

Edited December 3, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[Aetherous]

If people only practice qigong and don't exercise, they will be in worse health than if they did both. Exercise is essential for everyone (at least 30 minutes a day of exercise), and qigong doesn't count as a form of exercise.

 

Being overweight is scientifically shown to be harmful to one's health. If it's genetic, that person simply has to work harder to keep their weight down. Diet and exercise!

 

Many qigong people avoid this, thinking that their practice will solve everything (myself included)...but in my experience this is really a mistake. We are not cultivating the body correctly by focusing solely on the qi.

[NeiChuan]

If people only practice qigong and don't exercise, they will be in worse health than if they did both. Exercise is essential for everyone (at least 30 minutes a day of exercise), and qigong doesn't count as a form of exercise.

 

Being overweight is scientifically shown to be harmful to one's health. If it's genetic, that person simply has to work harder to keep their weight down. Diet and exercise!

 

Many qigong people avoid this, thinking that their practice will solve everything (myself included)...but in my experience this is really a mistake. We are not cultivating the body correctly by focusing solely on the qi.

 

Yeah I agree.

 

It's very rare that someone maintain there entire bodys health to the point they would not need any exercise.

 

 

Also the more energy you have pretty much the less appetite you have. Unless you're actually hungry.

 

All I know is when im done meditating I don't want to eat or even drink for about an hour.

 

I guess the reason they gain weight is either they don't up the exertion to there physical workouts, and eating when they're not actually hungry, rather only eating for taste.

[NeiChuan]

*Double Post*

Edited December 3, 2010 by NeiChuan

[Junbao]

I agree on the need for exercise. It is also a type of qi cultivation as we are building and circulating energy when we run, lift weights, dance, etc.

 

I think you make a point and it is something that has crossed my mind a few times as well. You here about some systems master living to be 90, or maybe one or two live through a century, and these are always included as selling points for that system.

But then I see normal everyday people who are quite old and happy and healthy that know nothing of qigong. A lady in at my work the other day plays golf with some other women in their 90s. A local woman in her 80s does regular group rides of 40+ miles with the local cycling club.

Then on the other side of the coin there are qigong masters that die of cancer, or die in their 60s or 70s.

There are smokers that live into their 80s and 30 year olds that die of lung disease.

Life can be crazy like that and it makes you wonder why.

I guess you also have to question what makes someone a qigong master and what sort of actual benefit that brings to their life. What have they mastered and what has it given them, and what is it we are all looking for that we are so ready to believe, or at least believe in the possibility, that they can give us what we are looking for?

I try to look at someone I learn from as being in a place I see myself later in life. For example if they are teaching Tai Chi but are shaky or have bad posture then that is not something I am going to aspire to.

 

Interesting stuff to ponder...

[Aetherous]

I guess you also have to question what makes someone a qigong master and what sort of actual benefit that brings to their life. What have they mastered and what has it given them, and what is it we are all looking for that we are so ready to believe, or at least believe in the possibility, that they can give us what we are looking for?

 

Yup!

[Kali Yuga]

What is healthy, what looks healthy, etc etc changes as the times change. In some cultures at some times, fat meant healthy because it means you had access to plenty of food. In modern America, fat means unhealthy because it means you're probably eating unhealthy food and lead a sedentary lifestyle.

 

But even modern days, sumo wrestlers are quite heavy, and I remember growing up kids would say someone is fat like a sumo wrestler. The assumption was "big" and "fat" meant "unhealthy", despite any athletic abilities of a sumo wrestler. (yeah, they aren't qigong, but still healthy and "big").

 

 

Personally, I agree with you- though my tolerance for unhealthy food stayed pretty high relatively far even after my start of meditation/qigong, I reached a point where unhealthy food that used to appeal to me started making me sick almost as soon as I started eating it. Sometimes I feel a bit nostalgic for the foods I used to eat, so I'll go and try them- and I learn pretty instantly that it's a bad idea. I can just feel my body go "ugh".

 

But who knows what would happen if I got access to a bunch of quality sumo diet food? Hmmmm.....

A year of practicing qigong 1-2 hours a day will truly make you realize truly how nasty much the food you love, tastes. There are very few long time cultivators who are junk food addicts.

 

The perception that you have to be of a certain weight strikes a chord. I have my own form of slightly "taoist" radical philosophy.. and many parts of it in fact come off from the 1999 Brad Pit/Edward Norton movie Fight Club. There are many, many striking points within that movie that can get you thinking. it is one of those films where you watch it again and watch it again and get something new everytime. to examine the way how the way we all are unconsciously programmed to think. and to destroy it, to tear it and all the falsity down.

 

To put things in a nutshell, because i can talk and talk about Fight Club for hours on end, is that because we don't have strong internal self and choose our own values every second of every minute, we don't have a clear view of life. or the things in it. We don't know what we want. And because we don't know what we want, we become seduced by popular opinion, advertising, external validation. Because we don't know how we truly feel about particular things, we accept all the crap values that Guess, Gucci, toothpaste and shampoo commericials give us. This consumerist, shallow pointless, race where you always lose. Through this we become zombies. Slaves. The walking dead. Our lives become empty, and we chase after things that bring hollow emptiness, working jobs we hate, living in self loathing, never being truly alive, not truly dead.

 

The rat race is the following -that I need to be skinny, or muscular or this or that . That what other people think matters. That to be happy I need this or that et cetera. A new car. New clothes. A hot girlfriend. A penthouse loft. A hot body.

 

The questions we all have to ask ourselves are the following- how much do people's opinion matter to you over your own? do I have the courage to hit rock bottom? do i really need all this stuff that I have; the lifestyle that i live? can I give it all up? can I stop trying to control everything and just let the chips fall as they may?

 

In many ways, Tyler Durden was my own form of Jesus.

[unmike]

As much as popular culture has latched onto the movie, I have to agree that there's a lot of gold buried in it, much of it even close to the surface. A long time insomnia sufferer myself, it struck a chord with me early on, even though I didn't see it until probably 2005.

 

Starting your own "fight club" can be a wonderful experience, especially if you use push hands!

[Aaron]

For 37 years I was never overweight, then I quit smoking and gained nearly 50 pounds in six months. It took a year to get the weight off. When I was overweight I was miserable. I couldn't tie my shoes or see my willy when I went to the bathroom, misery.

 

I don't think being overweight is natural, but maybe it is. I can't say. I can only say I feel one hundred thousand percent better having lost the weight.

 

As for my diet and exercise regime, I walked three miles a day and reduced my portions to reasonable amounts. I still eat the foods I like, just not as much of it.

 

Aaron

 

edit- I haven't exercised in over six months and I haven't gained a pound. The trick is to eat only what you need and on occassion eat something special. I do plan on exercising, just making the point that it's not really the best way to lose weight or keep weight off.

Edited December 3, 2010 by Twinner

[Sloppy Zhang]

(I think I've posted this before.) I often wonder why, at qigong workshops, foods like donuts, cookies, chips are served.

 

Same reason why in America, being overweight is a sign of lower socioeconomic status- junk food is cheap.

 

Ramen, chips, packs of soda, a package of donuts, fast foods, etc etc- MUCH cheaper than whole foods, organic foods, etc etc.

 

Go to an organic food store, then go look at the prices and compare them to junk food or fast food for an equivalent period of time (food to feed you for one day, one week, two weeks, etc). Junk food is just cheaper.

 

So if you're doing a seminar and want to provide snacks, how do you cut costs? By cheaper food! And that food is probably "junk".

[unmike]

Same reason why in America, being overweight is a sign of lower socioeconomic status- junk food is cheap.

 

Ramen, chips, packs of soda, a package of donuts, fast foods, etc etc- MUCH cheaper than whole foods, organic foods, etc etc.

 

Go to an organic food store, then go look at the prices and compare them to junk food or fast food for an equivalent period of time (food to feed you for one day, one week, two weeks, etc). Junk food is just cheaper.

 

So if you're doing a seminar and want to provide snacks, how do you cut costs? By cheaper food! And that food is probably "junk".

 

This is the prevailing and, sadly, often correct view. However, it's not always the case! Sprouting certain seeds, grains, and nuts, all easily purchased in bulk for next to dirt, leads to the most healthy food on the planet, guilt free. For us vegetablarians, they even offer complete proteins!

 

Just add water, a little sunlight, and a few days of occasional rinsing.

 

I recommend chickpeas/garbanzo beans and lentils as great, tasty starters at affordable prices ($2.00/lb, which is enough for multiple days of food). Carrots are another wonderful and usually affordable staple.

 

Can't wait until I can pleachitecture myself a house from various food bearing trees... That'll be the life.

[Sloppy Zhang]

This is the prevailing and, sadly, often correct view. However, it's not always the case! Sprouting certain seeds, grains, and nuts, all easily purchased in bulk for next to dirt, leads to the most healthy food on the planet, guilt free. For us vegetablarians, they even offer complete proteins!

 

Just add water, a little sunlight, and a few days of occasional rinsing.

 

I recommend chickpeas/garbanzo beans and lentils as great, tasty starters at affordable prices ($2.00/lb, which is enough for multiple days of food). Carrots are another wonderful and usually affordable staple.

 

Can't wait until I can pleachitecture myself a house from various food bearing trees... That'll be the life.

 

Awesome suggestions!

 

But unfortunately, that only works if you've got space to grow that stuff. If you're in an apartment, or a house in a really cramped housing area, then you're going to have limited options for how much you can produce on your own

[NeiChuan]

Same reason why in America, being overweight is a sign of lower socioeconomic status- junk food is cheap.

 

Ramen, chips, packs of soda, a package of donuts, fast foods, etc etc- MUCH cheaper than whole foods, organic foods, etc etc.

 

Go to an organic food store, then go look at the prices and compare them to junk food or fast food for an equivalent period of time (food to feed you for one day, one week, two weeks, etc). Junk food is just cheaper.

 

So if you're doing a seminar and want to provide snacks, how do you cut costs? By cheaper food! And that food is probably "junk".

 

Im glad at the last qi gong workshop they didn't serve donuts. ( I would have surely been known as "that guy", eating all the donuts)

 

 

When I look at food now though, I just think quality over quantity. Nutrition wise.

 

Also having to do with kali's fight club post. Im pretty much the same.. If you can't just drop everything and move you've become to attached to something.

 

That's a bit different if you have a girlfriend or something though. Ofcourse still move, but accomodate them.

[Friend]

Edited November 16, 2011 by Friend

[sifusufi]

Just finished a documentary on B.K.S. Iyengar, it was mentioned that he had healed himself from 2 accidents as well as 2 heart attacks.

 

No mention was made as to why the heart attacks occurred.

 

I'm guessing diet

 

(did I mention I love Indian food)

[Astral_Anima]

WARNING : This may be long and involve some minor chemistry

 

My 2cents=

 

Well I'd have to ask, 'what causes one to be "overweight". In the terms of bruce...he's fat, he's got man tits and a gut. What causes that?

 

So some people believe it's all about "calories" but here's my thoughts on that. What are calories? They're supposed to be a measurement of energy. But how is energy produced? First the body takes glucose and breaks it into Pyruvate. The pyruvate then, in the presence of adequate cellular oxygen, enters the mitochondria and creates ATP (Adenosine triphosphate). So when you eat fruits and non-starchy vegetables or 'simple sugars', the body directly absorbs the glucose and creates ATP. So if we ingest enough glucose we will have enough ATP (given certain conditions are met). However when we don't get enough glucose in our system our body breaks down fats or proteins into glucose and uses that. However what's not added to the equation is

A.) the amount of ATP needed to convert the fat/protein into glucose

B.) the metabolic waste involved in that metabolic function/breakdown

So lets say, for example, that one molecule of glucose = 9 ATP and each molecule of fat renders 2 glucose molecules BUT it takes 12 ATP to break it down. Then you 'NET ATP' (which is never emphasized) would only be 6 ATP. And what if it takes another 3 ATP to clean up the metabolic waste that wouldn't be there if it had 'pure" glucose and didn't have to break down fat?

But anyway, lets say that there IS an abundance of energy. If you have too much ATP, too much energy...you're not going to sit on the couch and drink a beer, you're going to be restless, bouncy and motivated to go DO SOMETHING. That how I feel when I eat a high fruit diet, I'm energetic ALL the time, I just want to run and never stop because I have such an abundance of energy (and if I eat late at night I can't sleep "like now ). But I'll NEVER be fat on fruit, I could eat 8000 calories a day and never gain a pound because when I have enough energy I'm active and motivated. Digestions is easy, elimination is easy, simple carbohydrate metabolism is clean... however you get a big meal of meat and potatoes and phewWWWWWW that energy go bye-bye and Id get sluggish, unmotivated and slightly depressed, lol.

 

When it comes to having a 'gut' usually it's intestinal. When I eat a big meal of low fiber "stuff" it sits in there and doesn't move nearly as easy as fruits and vegetables. As soon as one gets constipated, their bowels load up and become bloated (especially in the case of indigestion). The intestines will become enflamed and over a prolonged period will be grossly stretched out of shape and may ever prolapse.

 

Now personally I think most health problems are 'gland weaknesses'. For example: usually excess fat can be traced back to the adrenals and thyroid. Man-tits, especially to the adrenals which create neurotransmitters like dopamine, DHEA and acetylcholine. Since DHEA is the precursor to testosterone, if the adrenal cortex isn't functioning "up to par" then there may be hormonal imbalances. If the thyroid is hypoactive the metabolism and energy will be slow. If someone has alot of wrinkles or "flabby" or have low bone density they may have a parathyroid weakness, may not be utilizing calcium (which leads to MAJOR imbalances throughout the body).

 

But wait, isn't qigong supposed to increase gland health and function? I think it does but without understanding what causes these glands to become weak in the first place, I'd say it merely slows your own decay. So what causes the malfunctioning of glands? I'll leave that one up in the air. I'm still working with Dr Erhet's material and 'mucus' theory. Qigong can only do so much though, unless we address the daily exposure to the factors that CAUSE gland weakness, we're only slowly our own decay.

 

Though I must say, Chinese herbalism (actually just herbalism in general) is GREAT XD I've been working with herbs on my fruit diet and have noticed a MONUMENTAL change in health. I'm also going to experiment with glandulars.

 

So my opinion on overweight qigong masters is that they know their craft but they don't know their vessel Until we master this body and mind, anything else is going to be rather difficult wouldn't u agree? I find it funny that John Chang, a high level nei-gong practitioner still smokes. Again, knows nei-gong, can do some crazy shit...still doesn't understand his vessel, or simply doesn't care about it

 

-Astral

[Sonhoffman]

I understand that even if you're a Qigong master you still have your trials & crosses. For some quitting junk food & other unhealthy habits is easy as 123, or they don't make the effort it just happens. I for one didn't stop my daily marijuana smoking, it dropped me.. I started rejecting it. For others it could prove to be next to impossible, or they just never get convinced enough that they should (addiction is often all about this). Do you KNOW that they absolutely should? I don't

 

I have been told that in China everyone smokes cigarettes because Chairman Mao smoked and it was thus thought of as something to do and few have questioned it even after he went down, it just stuck to them. A local Tai Chi Master from China is a well known chain smoker, I hear people joking about it. He himself has said that according to TCM you need some toxins to drive out other toxins.. Hehe.. He also likes to drink a bit more than a bit. But he's great at Tai Chi that's for sure.

 

When I think about this kind of subject it always brings me to a certain uncertainty, and my mind starts switching between the linear and non-linear, between the destined and creative free will. I like to think both exist at the same time and the manifestation of this interaction can well be an overweight smoking Qigong Master who is simply living HIS life and co-creating his destiny, not caring if somebody thinks he's not perfectly realised.

[Ambrose_Bierce]

So to see qigong masters being over weight simply does not make sense to me.

 

The brain is a great thing, yet not when it comes to cultivation.

 

Most texts do in fact mention that Energy flows through non-fat areas. (Do not misteak this to mean polyunsaturated fats). I cite the Yi yin jing and the xi sui jing.

 

Opinions are like Onions. The more you cut and peel the more pungent and more it stimulates the tear ducts. Finally when we cant see because of the tears we try to finish or give up.

 

Over the years having brushed shoulders with teachers I have seen a lot. Students look for self validation on different levels due to their teachers or even their peers. Bruce teaches meditation through stilling the mind. Seems like he has an understanding of the mind. That is non-opinion through understanding different "ways".

 

That is all I know.

[zanshin]

Exercise melts fat, but qigong seems to change the way the fat lies. I'm focused on doing long runs right now, hungry all the time, so I eat a lot and losing a little weight anyway although I was proportionate in the first place. Literally ran my butt off, longer and faster runs but craving junk, feeling tired, looking drawn and worn out. So I started getting up extra early to make time for regular qigong practice, now my cheeks look full again, energy level better during day, more focused to make decent meals for myself and my clothes fit better. Scale now holding steady.

 

You really can't tell by body type. I know big people who move really, almost surprisingly well and people who are thin but no strength or endurance.

[effilang]

The QiGong master in this video below has incredible kung fu despite his weight *troll face

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDIQyWWL810

 

[oat1239]

People often throw terms like qigong master and taoist or buddhist master around but that is really open to interpretation on a case by case basis. Regarding appearance, there are forms of internal qigong which cause changes in the body to occur over time and which may look to someone who is not familiar with this sort of thing like the person is out of shape or unhealthy, although in fact they may actually be in quite good health overall. The term qigong master is really often just used as a term nowadays to indicate that someone teaches qigong and doesn't necessarily mean that they are at a high level, although they may like to present them self that way. In my experience a lot of what people teach nowadays is often some modernized derivation of just some small part of an older traditional system or small parts of different systems, or is actually a relatively new practice altogether that may also have a lot of other unrelated stuff thrown in from many sources, even though the teacher may insist they are teaching some authentic system. That is not necessarily bad, but if the teacher is not completely open about what exactly they are teaching and where all of it really comes from then you have to wonder what they are up to. IMO, Qigong Master and Taoist Master or Buddhist Master are often just terms that many people use these days to help draw in business.

 

So anyway, it should not be too surprising that some very unhealthy looking people may refer to themselves as qigong masters or taoist or buddhist masters or whatever. Also some traditional systems such as buddhism or some forms of taoism may focus more on cultivating true nature or spirit and give less importance to the body. Something doesn't have to be traditional or old to be beneficial, but often what is being taught is only a small part of what a complete system would traditionally contain and also may have a lot of questionable things mixed in as well. I think where some people may get thrown off is that a given teacher may teach some qigong forms or practices that are quite helpful, so the student may be inclined to assume that everything else the teacher is teaching is also good and complementary , but that may not really be the case. If something doesn't seem right somehow then the use of discernment is probably a good idea, IMO.

[Informer]

[Protector]

[Ambrose_Bierce]

 

 

Course Sammo Hung is fast... Why not?