Excerpt from The Wheel of Time, by Carlos Castaneda

[manitou]

I haven't heard anyone say yet why Mr. Castaneda was a fraud. Or was it don Juan Mateus who was the fraud? As for the suicide, are you referring to Florinda Donner-Grau who killed herself after he died?

[Vajrahridaya]

I haven't heard anyone say yet why Mr. Castaneda was a fraud. Or was it don Juan Mateus who was the fraud? As for the suicide, are you referring to Florinda Donner-Grau who killed herself after he died?

 

There was no Don Juan and his earlier works were fiction, not his experience, but his fantasy.

[manitou]

If CC lucid dreamed don Juan for the entire period of years, what's the difference? The information triangulates.

[Vajrahridaya]

If CC lucid dreamed don Juan for the entire period of years, what's the difference? The information triangulates.

 

Whatever you want to use to justify it. But, he didn't lucid dream it, he actually just made it all up, in the sense of like lets say, Harry Potter, but instead of referencing Celtic Lore or whatever, it references American Shamanism.

[island]

he didn't lucid dream it, he actually just made it all up, in the sense of like lets say, Harry Potter, but instead of referencing Celtic Lore or whatever, it references American Shamanism.

 

I don't know the truth of it, but that had me ROFL. Thank you

[Apech]

Whatever you want to use to justify it. But, he didn't lucid dream it, he actually just made it all up, in the sense of like lets say, Harry Potter, but instead of referencing Celtic Lore or whatever, it references American Shamanism.

 

That's nice from someone who practices a system full of syncretic deities!

[King Kabalabhati]

Whatever you want to use to justify it. But, he didn't lucid dream it, he actually just made it all up, in the sense of like lets say, Harry Potter, but instead of referencing Celtic Lore or whatever, it references American Shamanism.

 

Are you suggesting Harry Potter is not an authentic system?

[Jetsun]

The man had some controversy but many of the teachings in the books are legitimate teachings, for example the recapitulation is a very powerful tool which can bring you to awareness of things not many other techniques can. You can get taught the technique properly by a place I know of by a tradition called the "Maker" tradition, which goes to a level not spoken about in the books and from personal experience I know it works. So on the basic level the Shamanism and techniques he speaks about are not bullshit even if he is.

[Apech]

Are you suggesting Harry Potter is not an authentic system?

 

:lol::lol: good one!

[manitou]

I think it's really easy to read the entire series and miss the essence of what it's about. The Castaneda path is the path to enlightenment; it goes up that hill - the same one we're all going up. One of the later books is entitled The Power of Silence. When you understand that metaphysically this aligns with the concept of Wu-Wei, surely folks here can relate to that. The Power of Silence (Wu-Wei) is understanding in your soul that when one stops the internal dynamic of one's own participation in something, it not only becomes visible and understandable, but it will resolve on its own if you just keep your hands off it. I can't really begin to describe this in words---maybe others here can. The warrior is the sage.

I realized one day as I was looking at one of his book covers that all the covers of his books are cleverly symbolic and contain the lesson of what is inside the book. (Although I've seen some printings that don'e have the same pictures, but the series I have does). The onliest way to understand these, in my opinion (really chuckling out loud here) is to smoke a doobie and really activate your right brain to see them. Unless your really right-brain endowed already.

[Vajrahridaya]

I don't know the truth of it, but that had me ROFL. Thank you

 

thanks!

[Vajrahridaya]

That's nice from someone who practices a system full of syncretic deities!

 

Yes, yes..., so they converted to the Dharma!

[Vajrahridaya]

Are you suggesting Harry Potter is not an authentic system?

 

Hogwarts school I do believe is a legitimate school of Wizardry, in fantasy land!

[Vajrahridaya]

The man had some controversy but many of the teachings in the books are legitimate teachings, for example the recapitulation is a very powerful tool which can bring you to awareness of things not many other techniques can. You can get taught the technique properly by a place I know of by a tradition called the "Maker" tradition, which goes to a level not spoken about in the books and from personal experience I know it works. So on the basic level the Shamanism and techniques he speaks about are not bullshit even if he is.

 

Jetsun, I do agree! I got a lot out of the books of his I did read. I was into him for a short period of time, like a couple of months in the late 80's.

[Vajrahridaya]

I think it's really easy to read the entire series and miss the essence of what it's about. The Castaneda path is the path to enlightenment; it goes up that hill - the same one we're all going up. One of the later books is entitled The Power of Silence. When you understand that metaphysically this aligns with the concept of Wu-Wei, surely folks here can relate to that. The Power of Silence (Wu-Wei) is understanding in your soul that when one stops the internal dynamic of one's own participation in something, it not only becomes visible and understandable, but it will resolve on its own if you just keep your hands off it. I can't really begin to describe this in words---maybe others here can. The warrior is the sage.

I realized one day as I was looking at one of his book covers that all the covers of his books are cleverly symbolic and contain the lesson of what is inside the book. (Although I've seen some printings that don'e have the same pictures, but the series I have does). The onliest way to understand these, in my opinion (really chuckling out loud here) is to smoke a doobie and really activate your right brain to see them. Unless your really right-brain endowed already.

 

When you really come in contact with the teachings and methods of a complete path to enlightenment, I think you'll change your mind. But, I do agree that his words and teachings are inspiring and are derived from the "general" path to enlightenment. I don't feel that he offers a complete system, just some nice platitudes in story form and some interesting practices pulled from ancient American Shamanism.

 

Yeah... I used to do that with the doobie that is, but I started to get way too out there and not very grounded, so I quit. Symbols are powerful and I do think that Castanadas was a brilliant mind, but not enlightened, which is entirely my own opinion. Though it's a fact that he made all those stories up.

[fiveelementtao]

I haven't heard anyone say yet why Mr. Castaneda was a fraud. Or was it don Juan Mateus who was the fraud? As for the suicide, are you referring to Florinda Donner-Grau who killed herself after he died?

Actually Manitou,

Some of us did already show conclusively why he was a fraud. There was no Don Juan. Castaneda made him up. But, I don't think that is the point for you. You seem to have an emotional attachment to him not being a fraud. We could argue with you all day. But if you are committed to seeing him as real, then what's the point? Nothing anybody says will change your mind...

If you do even a little bit of research with an open mind, you will see he was a liar. The question is what will you do with that knowledge once you have it? Will you discard all his teachings? Will you have re-evaluate his path of "freedom" knowing he made it all up and did not follow it himself? As I understand the Path of the Warrior, it is one of impeccable commitment, not emotional attachment...

Edited December 8, 2010 by fiveelementtao

[fiveelementtao]

I think it's really easy to read the entire series and miss the essence of what it's about. The Castaneda path is the path to enlightenment; it goes up that hill - the same one we're all going up. One of the later books is entitled The Power of Silence. When you understand that metaphysically this aligns with the concept of Wu-Wei, surely folks here can relate to that. The Power of Silence (Wu-Wei) is understanding in your soul that when one stops the internal dynamic of one's own participation in something, it not only becomes visible and understandable, but it will resolve on its own if you just keep your hands off it. I can't really begin to describe this in words---maybe others here can. The warrior is the sage.

I realized one day as I was looking at one of his book covers that all the covers of his books are cleverly symbolic and contain the lesson of what is inside the book. (Although I've seen some printings that don't have the same pictures, but the series I have does). The onliest way to understand these, in my opinion (really chuckling out loud here) is to smoke a doobie and really activate your right brain to see them. Unless your really right-brain endowed already.

You're talking about something altogether different. The origin of this entire argument stems from your earlier assertion that the claim that Castaneda was a fraud was untrue. Now you are saying his system is valid because it teaches many universal truths. That is different. I am not saying his made-up teachings didn't draw from valid sources. I am saying the man himself was a liar. Again, if this is about whether you personally enjoy his books and teachings, I don't think anyone is trying to take that away from you.

Edited December 8, 2010 by fiveelementtao

[Ya Mu]

I think CC's main contribution was stimulation of a whole generation (and later generations) of seekers. One thing that I have found is that the universe works in amazingly convoluted, deep, and mysterious ways. I encountered his books in the 70's and found them to be intensely inspiring. I was not even dismayed or disappointed when I found a lot of the information to not be true. That certainly didn't take away from the joy and stimulation from the books themselves. Has anyone considered the possibility that he was doing EXACTLY what he was supposed to be doing, stimulation of thought processes and prodding the seeker? A most worthy contribution IMO.

[strawdog65]

I think CC's main contribution was stimulation of a whole generation (and later generations) of seekers. One thing that I have found is that the universe works in amazingly convoluted, deep, and mysterious ways. I encountered his books in the 70's and found them to be intensely inspiring. I was not even dismayed or disappointed when I found a lot of the information to not be true. That certainly didn't take away from the joy and stimulation from the books themselves. Has anyone considered the possibility that he was doing EXACTLY what he was supposed to be doing, stimulation of thought processes and prodding the seeker? A most worthy contribution IMO.

 

 

Hi Ya Mu!

 

Well said! To think we know what is and should be, to place a judgment on something that

is still beneficial, what difference does it make ? It is what it is, either way many people

were deeply affected by the man. We are all welcome to take it or leave it, whatever it may be.

 

Far as his intent, do we honestly know what CC's intent was?

Even as a complete work of fiction.... if the words speak to a person,

if those words hold meaning and life changing profundity then they are worthwhile.

Everyone has a different perception of their own "reality" can you or I honestly prove

that what we perceive is more complete or more "real"? If your perspective is opened by

someone's words, how does this invalidate what you have learned?

 

Personally I learned a lot from Yoda. He isn't even real( at least I don't think so. )

He is just a movie character, spouting words from a script, written by a man.

Regardless... when Yoda says to Luke ( paraphrased because I'm sure I'm not saying it

perfectly correct.) "There is no try. There is only do, this is why you fail." When Yoda says this

it resonates deeply within me, to me it is a teaching, it is a truth that I need not consult or have

approval from anyone else to use in my own life. Nothing can invalidate what the teaching is.

The same is true regardless of where the teaching emminates. What is a truth to your being

is incorruptible, and judgment of validity can only be made from the outside, by someone

whom has decided otherwise. So basically, you get it, and they don't and nothing else really

matters.

 

"judge me by my size do you"?

No Yoda.... definitely not!

 

Peace!

[Vajrahridaya]

I think CC's main contribution was stimulation of a whole generation (and later generations) of seekers. One thing that I have found is that the universe works in amazingly convoluted, deep, and mysterious ways. I encountered his books in the 70's and found them to be intensely inspiring. I was not even dismayed or disappointed when I found a lot of the information to not be true. That certainly didn't take away from the joy and stimulation from the books themselves. Has anyone considered the possibility that he was doing EXACTLY what he was supposed to be doing, stimulation of thought processes and prodding the seeker? A most worthy contribution IMO.

 

Yes, well said, but... he was only a product of karma, his own, interlaced with what influenced him to be who he was or is... wherever he may be? It was merely peoples potential for awakening that allowed them to feel that way about his books, and his expression played into that, but there is still the question of his personal karma? I personally don't know. But... the question of being inspired has everything to do with the people who read his books and not him personally. You say that he was doing what he was supposed to be doing? So, then... there is a cosmic will behind everyone and no one has any way to escape that? So, serial killers are doing what they are supposed to be doing because, hey! Someone who's parent was killed by a serial killer, started questioning his life very deeply and became a seeker of the truth! That's somewhat of an excuse I think. For him personally, there is no justification for him to have carried on a lie for so long, it's selfish! On the other hand, it's up to us to let everything in life inspire us, but that doesn't take away a persons personal responsibility to not be a fraud. I don't believe that there is an ultimate entity that is designing everything saying, "You are suffering, because this is how it's supposed to be, it is your destiny because I father of the Universe... WILL IT!" Sorry, I don't buy it. Which is why I'm Buddhist.

Edited December 9, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[Ya Mu]

Yes, well said, but... he was only a product of karma, his own, interlaced with what influenced him to be who he was or is... wherever he may be? It was merely peoples potential for awakening that allowed them to feel that way about his books, and his expression played into that, but there is still the question of his personal karma? I personally don't know. But... the question of being inspired has everything to do with the people who read his books and not him personally. You say that he was doing what he was supposed to be doing? So, then... there is a cosmic will behind everyone and no one has any way to escape that? So, serial killers are doing what they are supposed to be doing because, hey! Someone who's parent was killed by a serial killer, started questioning his life very deeply and became a seeker of the truth! That's somewhat of an excuse I think. For him personally, there is no justification for him to have carried on a lie for so long, it's selfish! On the other hand, it's up to us to let everything in life inspire us, but that doesn't take away a persons personal responsibility to not be a fraud. I don't believe that there is an ultimate entity that is designing everything saying, "You are suffering, because this is how it's supposed to be, it is your destiny because I father of the Universe... WILL IT!" Sorry, I don't buy it. Which is why I'm Buddhist.

You seem to take this way out of perspective. " Has anyone considered the possibility that he was doing EXACTLY what he was supposed to be doing, stimulation of thought processes and prodding the seeker?" is not the same as your saying, " You say that he was doing what he was supposed to be doing?". There is that good old word "possibility" that you threw out.

Then you getting all Buddhist on me about everything is Karma.

That is why I am not a Buddhist.

 

I was attempting to make the point that his contributions stand for themselves even if we know the stories were not true. How does anyone know that his Karma (if one believes in Karma) was not balanced by providing the stimulation to the seekers? We cannot make the judgement that our interpretation of his "lies" was not designed (by Karma - certainly not God/Tao/Universe [for you]) to actually provide the balance of the scales?

I am not interested in debating this point - just a simple comment.

[Vajrahridaya]

There is that good old word "possibility" that you threw out.

 

Oh ok.

 

Then you getting all Buddhist on me about everything is Karma.

That is why I am not a Buddhist.

 

Karma literally means, "action", and of course in conceptual elaboration it also means reaction. How is everything not cause and effect? You might have a misunderstanding of the meaning of the term karma?

 

We cannot make the judgment that our interpretation of his "lies" was not designed (by Karma - certainly not God/Tao/Universe [for you]) to actually provide the balance of the scales?

I am not interested in debating this point - just a simple comment.

 

No, we cannot judge his karma, as his karma is it's own judgment, as karma includes intention and all it's complexity. I'm just saying, to use the positive reactions of others (their own karmic merit) to his lies as an excuse for seeing universal balance everywhere, could lead to misguided thoughts about the non-dual state that you are pointing to here. All things are meant to be and perfect as they are should not be an intellectual, emotional or spiritual excuse for inappropriate activity (karma).

 

That's all I'm saying.

[fiveelementtao]

I think CC's main contribution was stimulation of a whole generation (and later generations) of seekers. One thing that I have found is that the universe works in amazingly convoluted, deep, and mysterious ways. I encountered his books in the 70's and found them to be intensely inspiring. I was not even dismayed or disappointed when I found a lot of the information to not be true. That certainly didn't take away from the joy and stimulation from the books themselves. Has anyone considered the possibility that he was doing EXACTLY what he was supposed to be doing, stimulation of thought processes and prodding the seeker? A most worthy contribution IMO.

Hi YaMu,

good to hear from you my brother,

You make some very good points. None of which is being argued against. As I said earlier, it is not an "either/or" proposition. This is linear thinking. While he may have been doing what he was supposed to do when wrote the fictional books. He certainly was not doing what he was supposed to do when he abused his students. Nobody is trying to take away the brilliance of his writing or the influence they had. But those good points do not in any way justify the extreme abuse he inflicted on those close to him. Nor does it justify lying and manipulating people the way he did. I believe that spiritual teachers should be held to a higher standard. Brilliance is not an excuse for hurting people.

This entire argument resulted from someone pointing out that Castenada was a fraud and an abuser, which prompted manitou to claim that was not true. When I chimed in to reinforce that it indeed was true, this thread has devolved into an argument about whether or not his writings whether true or not have merit. That is not the issue here. If someone wants to acknowledge that he was a liar and abusive and then talk about the merits of his work. I will stay silent... People are unconsciously making the point that "well, his writings were helpful and had merit, so let's not look at the hurt his actions had on people and on spiritual consciousness." Whatever merit his writings have do not in any way justify his megalomaniacal cult leader behavior. Having experienced teachers like that myself, I have learned how to keep the teachings that were helpful and still separate what my teachers did that was abusive. For me, it is important to point our when teachers are abusing their power, not exonerate them...

 

P.S. I also think many arguing in favor of Castaneda may not be aware of the extreme abuse he inflicted on his students. We are not just talking about a brilliant teacher who stretched the truth to teach spiritual truth. Indeed, he did do that. On a personal level, The man was a monster and destroyed peoples lives. this of course is not the effect that he would have had on the average reader who was inspired by him.

Edited December 9, 2010 by fiveelementtao

[Mark Foote]

Are you suggesting Harry Potter is not an authentic system?

 

"All we need to pluck the wonders of this world of everyday life is enough detachment. But more than detachment, we need enough affection and abandon."

 

I agree, this is a beautiful example of the ability of CC to state something that seems so intuitively right that it doesn't matter if it's really him and not someone who can walk into another world right before my eyes who said it. He had great sensitivity and wrote with feeling; his works gave me a sense of adventure in spirituality, and I appreciated that at the time (70's).

 

My adventure was really simple, and that was to get up from a chair behind a card table and walk to the door of my room under the staircase (sort of like Harry Potter, I had several rooms under the staircase early on). This was my adventure because all I did was attend to feeling in the movement of breath, I did not will myself to get up and walk to the door, but my body got up and walked to the door.

 

It's now 35 years later, and I still work to understand this experience as my ordinary life; what I've got, is that the feeling in the particular movement of breath is necessary to the stretch that consciousness occasions. It's a lot like hypnosis, it's a lot like falling asleep awake- which I think will happen if reverse breathing becomes natural for long enough; we forget ourselves in our activity, and we also forget ourselves in activity that is generated through the place of consciousness without any intent.

 

Hope I survive having given myself over to the adventure; maybe you feel that way too, manitou? Probably a Tao Bums prayer, that.

[Ya Mu]

Hi YaMu,

good to hear from you my brother,

You make some very good points. None of which is being argued against. As I said earlier, it is not an "either/or" proposition. This is linear thinking. While he may have been doing what he was supposed to do when wrote the fictional books. He certainly was not doing what he was supposed to do when he abused his students. Nobody is trying to take away the brilliance of his writing or the influence they had. But those good points do not in any way justify the extreme abuse he inflicted on those close to him. Nor does it justify lying and manipulating people the way he did. I believe that spiritual teachers should be held to a higher standard. Brilliance is not an excuse for hurting people.

This entire argument resulted from someone pointing out that Castenada was a fraud and an abuser, which prompted manitou to claim that was not true. When I chimed in to reinforce that it indeed was true, this thread has devolved into an argument about whether or not his writings whether true or not have merit. That is not the issue here. If someone wants to acknowledge that he was a liar and abusive and then talk about the merits of his work. I will stay silent... People are unconsciously making the point that "well, his writings were helpful and had merit, so let's not look at the hurt his actions had on people and on spiritual consciousness." Whatever merit his writings have do not in any way justify his megalomaniacal cult leader behavior. Having experienced teachers like that myself, I have learned how to keep the teachings that were helpful and still separate what my teachers did that was abusive. For me, it is important to point our when teachers are abusing their power, not exonerate them...

 

P.S. I also think many arguing in favor of Castaneda may not be aware of the extreme abuse he inflicted on his students. We are not just talking about a brilliant teacher who stretched the truth to teach spiritual truth. Indeed, he did do that. On a personal level, The man was a monster and destroyed peoples lives. this of course is not the effect that he would have had on the average reader who was inspired by him.

 

Hi,

 

Congrats on the publishing of your new book! I know the hours and effort required to do such and it is not as easy as some would think. Major accomplishment!

 

I really am not defending the man himself as to me his actions were atrocious. I was just trying to make a point that sometimes the deeply convoluted balancing of the universe happens in ways we may not initially think. It is all far beyond my understanding.