Excerpt from The Wheel of Time, by Carlos Castaneda

[manitou]

 

It all depends on one's own personal power and impeccability.

 

 

 

 

There you go.

[Apech]

There you go.

 

I'm with you on this one Manitou.

[fiveelementtao]

Ok, so I'm flipping through my Castaneda collection looking to see where it says that Personal Power and Impeccability means sticking my head in the sand and dependence on others for spiritual validation... Hmmm, not there... Oh, wait... Nope.... Still looking... Nope! Hmm, Can't seem to find it anywhere...

 

We're just going in circles now.. Guess it's time for me to leave you guys alone in this thread... Sorry to have harshed your buzz...

[Apech]

[Mark Foote]

[宁]

I would welcome a thread which discusses some fo the workable ideas/practices from CC and avoids the endless 'he's a fake' stuff.

 

When a thread like that will be created, the answer to the question whether he's a phony or not will become very obvious.

I had the chanse of listening to the audio book Active Side of Infinity. I had the feeling that the stories weren't true... they were just too damn well ballanced, like equations. At the same time I knew that not their truth mattered, but the feeling.

 

That feeling, and the plethora of feelings the books exert, are CC's transmision to us. If you hold on to them enough time, your assemblage point will move slightly, just enough for you to grasp what does it mean to have a relationship with Life and Infinity the way a warrior is bound to have...

That was his gift to the world.

What he took in return was ridiculously insignificant.

[Stigweard]

Ok, so I'm flipping through my Castaneda collection looking to see where it says that Personal Power and Impeccability means sticking my head in the sand and dependence on others for spiritual validation... Hmmm, not there... Oh, wait... Nope.... Still looking... Nope! Hmm, Can't seem to find it anywhere...

 

We're just going in circles now.. Guess it's time for me to leave you guys alone in this thread... Sorry to have harshed your buzz...

Wow FET, I'm surprised at you... tsk, tsk...

 

Seeing that you were referencing my post I can only assume your denigration was aimed at myself ... so please explain how my expressed view was either:

 

* Sticking my head in the sand

* Depending on others for spiritual validation

 

???

[fiveelementtao]

Wow FET, I'm surprised at you... tsk, tsk...

 

Seeing that you were referencing my post I can only assume your denigration was aimed at myself ... so please explain how my expressed view was either:

 

* Sticking my head in the sand

* Depending on others for spiritual validation

 

???

Nope stiggie that wasn't aimed at you...My apologies... The context of that statement in your post was clear to me and was not offensive. It was repeated a couple of times by others which I felt might have been aimed at me.. Listen we all know I'm a hothead... my post was not aimed at anyone in particular...It was my ineffectual attempt to express my frustration that some who had expressed resistance to even the idea of objectively investigating the facts meant that their experiences from reading the material would somehow be invalidated if they learned that Castaneda was not who they thought he was. I have a personal issue when it comes to (what I perceive as) worshipping sacred cows without critical thinking skills. I also need to continue working on patience and allow people to have their issues and work through them at their schedule, not mine... My apologies... I've beaten this horse to death, so I shall take my leave of this thread...

Mike

Edited December 14, 2010 by fiveelementtao

[Stigweard]

Nope stiggie that wasn't aimed at you...My apologies... The context of that statement in your post was clear to me and was not offensive. It was repeated a couple of times by others which I felt might have been aimed at me.. Listen we all know I'm a hothead... my post was not aimed at anyone in particular...It was my ineffectual attempt to express my frustration that some who had expressed resistance to even the idea of objectively investigating the facts meant that their experiences from reading the material would somehow be invalidated if they learned that Castaneda was not who they thought he was. I have a personal issue when it comes to (what I perceive as) worshipping sacred cows without critical thinking skills. I also need to continue working on patience and allow people to have their issues and work through them at their schedule, not mine... My apologies... I've beaten this horse to death, so I shall take my leave of this thread...

Mike

 

No need to apologize at all ... I agree completely that objective investigation into the history and validity of any path is a must. I also recognize that, in your efforts to reveal a broader picture, you slanted to the left to try and "balance out" those leaning to the right -- which on the surface made you look like you were taking the negative view.

 

You have presented your case perfunctorily and accurately in my opinion.

 

I know that when I discovered the bare facts of CC, I myself had to go through the passage of shock, denial, anger, bargaining, depression, testing, and acceptance. During the anger phase I was decidedly anti-Casteneda with the same passion of a reformed smoker who took every chance to take pot-shots at the "delusional believers".

 

Now I see CC's works for what they really are ... tales of power to be neither believed nor disbelieved. To believe them at face value is to fall into the trap of blind, ignorant faith, and to disbelieve them out of hand is to fall into the trap of closed-minded bigotry. Neither of these options serves any benefit to one's development.

 

Carlos' works fall into the Coyote teaching category for me. I remember my first meeting with a native Lakota man, Micheal Redshirt, a self-professed coyote teacher. I had to take a big wad of tobacco with me and keep rolling big fat chunky cigarettes for him. He told me that whenever he was smoking tobacco he couldn't lie, but if he wasn't then he could lie to me and tell me any untruth he liked. I lapsed a few times and later had to try and piece back together the meeting and sort the lies out from the truths. Very interesting.

 

I am certainly not trying to justify CC's obvious fraudulent propositions and despicable behavior. But I do know that, with the same objective approach you are suggesting, many and great riches can be found amongst his legacy.

 

[三江源]

 

 

You have presented your case perfunctorily and accurately in my opinion.

 

 

 

 

I dont think 5elTao has been perfunctory.

 

Being objective is all well and good, but the fact is, either Castaneda doesnt smell right to you, or he does.

 

I like a coyote as much as the next adaptable student, but CC to me smells all wrong, so I wont eat his food.

 

This is not very nice to hear for those that revere him, but this is a reality. Logic only gets you so far.

 

Some people feel their deeper intelligence says 'yes' to CC and some people say 'nope'.

 

To me he reeks of bad attitude. Idk if this is partly something to do with my brand of femininity and his brand of attitude to women. I dont like the way he lies, the energy behind it. I dont neccesarily have an issue with lying per se.

 

 

Ultimately, the Shen decides who we receive into ourselves as teacher. In this way, no right, no wrong.

 

Either way, nice thread, interesting for lots of reasons.

[Apech]

I dont think 5elTao has been perfunctory.

 

Being objective is all well and good, but the fact is, either Castaneda doesnt smell right to you, or he does.

 

I like a coyote as much as the next adaptable student, but CC to me smells all wrong, so I wont eat his food.

 

This is not very nice to hear for those that revere him, but this is a reality. Logic only gets you so far.

 

Some people feel their deeper intelligence says 'yes' to CC and some people say 'nope'.

 

To me he reeks of bad attitude. Idk if this is partly something to do with my brand of femininity and his brand of attitude to women. I dont like the way he lies, the energy behind it. I dont neccesarily have an issue with lying per se.

 

 

Ultimately, the Shen decides who we receive into ourselves as teacher. In this way, no right, no wrong.

 

Either way, nice thread, interesting for lots of reasons.

 

Cat,

 

That's interesting. In fact I would say I don't like or feel right about CC himself and specially 'the witches' and all that - seen them on youtube doing magical passes ... er ... no thanks ....I've read the Amy Wallace kiss and tell ... which I thought was a stupid book but doubtless factually accurate. He seems sexually jealous and obsessed by his own semen ... which doesn't impress.

 

But I get a completely different reaction to the books. This is why I am drawn to think that someone else was involved. Can't prove it but I think there was a DJ or someone at some point in his life. I have found a lot of the insights useful. I read them all when they came out ... they get worse towards the end ... so by the time all the debunking started I wasn't unprepared ... it didn't really bother me and I didn't feel angry/betrayed the way some people do. He opened up shamanism in a way that no one else did. If he borrowed all the ideas from here and there ... then he did ... but I still don't know how he managed those books ... its an extraordinary literary feat if that's what it was. I'd challenge anyone else to do the same and be as effective.

[Jetsun]

What I always thought was strange was that I didn't think the first two books were that good, the first being more about drugs and not all that interesting so I couldn't understand all the fuss, but then I read the third book "Journey to Ixtlan" and it blew me away. Perhaps it was just my perception but it seemed to be written in a completely different way than the earlier ones.

[Stigweard]

I dont think 5elTao has been perfunctory.

 

Oh yes you are right ... perfunctory is the wrong word. How careless of me, sincere apologies.

 

Correction:

 

fiveelementtao, in my opinion, has presented his case diligently and accurately in my opinion.

 

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

 

its an extraordinary literary feat if that's what it was. I'd challenge anyone else to do the same and be as effective.

 

 

Challenge accepted!! Obviously I'm not gonna' write a whole book to prove my point, but I think you'll agree by the end of my passages that it's entirely possible!

 

Here we go!

 

 

One day, I, the artist formerly known as Apech7, was walking in the desert, somewhere in South America. The sand was warm under my feet even though I was wearing my favorite pair of Dr. Martins. Why was I in the desert you may ask? Well, here's the thing; I had been majoring in Engineering at university for some years by that point, and had gotten really bored with spanners and grease and the like, and that day, as if out of nowhere, my classmate Bob, had suddenly started speaking in comprehensible tongues, "blur bloo bluurrr ioooo eeee uurrggg go to south america to seek your spiritual destiny poooo eeee errrrr doooooo", It was barely understandable, but I knew it was a sign from the heavens! I rushed out of the workshop, leaving Bod frothing at the mouth shaking on the floor, and hailed a taxi. Due to my overexcitement I failed, at that time, to notice something very strange, the taxi was in fact from the 1800's and was being pulled along by a horse, with a man in a top hat and rather nice pair of shiny boots. I like boots, and still now to this day, this it what stands out in my mind.

 

Inside, the taxi seemed unproportionately larger than the outside appearance, I found this curious, as I was an expert in all forms of transport, such as cars, buses and tricycles. Cut a long story short, I fell asleep and woke what seemed like many hours later, the scene outside the carriage had changed considerably, no more was I viewing medeival England, my native time zone, but now, everywhere around me was desert, and not the attractive kind either. Suddenly the carriage stopped with a start. I realized I had reached my destination and with some trepidation I flung open the door with brazen wantoness in order to give a grand entrance in case anyone was waiting for me outside. Sadly, no one was there, and it was all in vain, looking up at the taxi I noticed that the driver had changed into a Cheshire cat with a huge grin, I tipped him with 4 talons of gold, I had always been a generous tipper, this was simply because after having worked in TGI Fridays one summer, I realized people in the service industries were greatly under appreciated.

 

I began to wander in the desert, as you do, as the taxi stampeded into the distance. It was then I had a thought which was to change my life forever! It wasn't a normal kind of thought such as 'where did I leave my keys', no, this thought was truly epic in it's magnitude, the kind of thought normal people, except the gifted and deep, don't think, and it was this.....'what is the meaning of life?'. Frankly I had no idea, but I knew it was a question I would have all sown up very soon. In the distance I saw a lone hut, as I drew closer I read a sign atop, it read 'meaningful wife - Native Dating service', I realized this was quite literally...a sign, meaningful wife rhymed with 'meaningful life', I had been brought here for a reason! I decided to take destiny by the scruff of the neck and enter this establishment, I was also incredibly thirsty by that point so I had little choice, and with any luck I would achieve enlightenment and find a wife, the kind that does what she's told and cooks me a nice dinner.

 

I entered the shop to find it bare except for a dusty old counter and a dog eared edition of Playboy Christmas edition 1965, thumbing through the magazine, as I had little else to do, I was shocked when, as if by magic, the shopkeeper appeared. He was a nondescript man with shockingly bad taste in fashion! On top of his head he wore a native American Indian Yaqui Fess, bright red with an extra long tassle that rolled over his shoulder, the rest of his clothing I forget at this time, he may have been naked for all I can remember. The strangely wise looking old man then spoke "I am Don corlioni huan quixote Yaqui Indian, it's a bit of a mouthful I know, but blame my mother' he said, with a shrug; he continued "..I am here to teach you the meaning of life and teach you all kinds of spiritual stuff besides.", with some nervousness I replied "OK.". "We have no time to waste, you must go to the back room now and choose an outfit!", his voice had so much authority, how could I deny this man? So I went through the back door and noticed many hangers with costumes, dusty and old, yet not unattractive to me. Most of the costumes looked like they were from a 1980's Village People music video revival, and I chose the one that had appealed to me most as a lad, yes, who wouldn't choose the costume of the police officer, luckily there was also a stick on moustache to go with it. Carefully putting the cap on my head, with a jaunty angle, and attaching the moustache I exited the back passage.

 

Mr Don (as he will be now known as)started, surprised to see me dressed up to the nines so quick, he had been looking through Playboy, obviously seeking spiritual inspiration. "WE HAVE NO TIME TO WASTE!", he shouted, rather pointlessly in my view as I was not two feet away from him. He whisked the both of us away by a means that was strangely magical and beyond description so I'll not bother trying. We arrived, somehow, at a car factory. Mr. Don explained to me that all native Yaqui worked here, and if I was to find a wife, and enlightenment, this was the place to be! Entering the factory I saw a plethora of bare breasted natives, messy with grease and spanners. I felt nervous as all this native stuff was beyond my civilized upbringing, Mr. Don noticed my shame and said "don't worry, they can't even see you, they're all off their faces on peyote!". "Why have you really brought me here?", Mr. Don realized I was not your usual type of spiritual seeker that would get his camera out and start taking photos, I didn't realize it then, but I had past a test. This was why he had brought me to the 'Car Assembly Point'!

 

 

Ok, I'm done, some of us have to go to work. I think you'll agree that it's entirely possible to create an authentic spiritual work based on true Indian, whatever kind, beliefs and traditions.

[Mark Foote]

I know people do amazing things with practicing aspects of dreaming, do they mix sleeping and waking?

 

For the most part I believe waking and sleeping is the same effort, so I confuse myself by asking about mixing sleeping and waking. Thought I was talking nonsense as I wrote it, and I still think so, but they were the words I wanted to write!

 

As I reflect on this, I realize that maybe the same effort that's involved in waking and sleeping can be a part of dreaming. We realize the place as the place is what is, single-pointed yet inclusive past what can be known. If we see our hands, or travel out of body, the effort is still only this?- my guess, since I can't claim to have done either. Just the occasional lucid dream. Sweet dreams!

Edited December 15, 2010 by Mark Foote

[RiverSnake]

I have a personal issue when it comes to (what I perceive as) worshipping sacred cows without critical thinking skills.

 

Indeed, i think it is important to have a balance between faith and logic. I think when you become invested in any spiritual ideology it is tempting to put all of ones eggs in the "F" basket. However, IMO this is not a wise or balanced area of thought to be in.

[Apech]

 

.....

 

Ok, I'm done, some of us have to go to work. I think you'll agree that it's entirely possible to create an authentic spiritual work based on true Indian, whatever kind, beliefs and traditions.

 

I found your story compelling and yet at the same time deeply moving ... so deeply in fact that I had to rush to the bathroom ... you may well have proved a point ... CC was in truth a genius.

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

I found your story compelling and yet at the same time deeply moving ... so deeply in fact that I had to rush to the bathroom ... you may well have proved a point ... CC was in truth a genius.

 

You missed 'Charm 101' at school didn't you!

 

It's not nearly as good/bad(take your pick)as a painting I once did. I showed my girlfriend at the time my painting and asked her what she thought about it, it was a geometric abstract, she said "it makes me sick!", I actually thought she meant 'makes me sick' as in she disliked it intensely, but she then told me "no, I mean when I look at it I physically want to vomit! It makes me feel like vomiting!". Needless to say that was one of the highest compliments I've ever gotten for one of my creative works, still today I swell with pride every time I think of it. Your bowel movement is just another string in my bow.

[Apech]

You missed 'Charm 101' at school didn't you!

 

It's not nearly as good/bad(take your pick)as a painting I once did. I showed my girlfriend at the time my painting and asked her what she thought about it, it was a geometric abstract, she said "it makes me sick!", I actually thought she meant 'makes me sick' as in she disliked it intensely, but she then told me "no, I mean when I look at it I physically want to vomit! It makes me feel like vomiting!". Needless to say that was one of the highest compliments I've ever gotten for one of my creative works, still today I swell with pride every time I think of it. Your bowel movement is just another string in my bow.

 

Was it an ordinary painting or a nagual painting? The ability to produce violent physical reactions at a distance is an impressive siddhi. Much better than those distant orgasms that Drew used to go on about. You could market this nausea gong and make a small fortune not to mention the carrot recycling potential (why is it always carrots that are left over ... perhaps the TTC has the answer I must check).