Is This The Truth About Kundalini?

[Mandrake]

 

As you know the math for reincarnation for the world population just doesn't add up, unless something else is happening. I take it that the Buddhist view is based on independent origin, and that view is the right way to view it, a person may not necessarily get to the end of the view to see what's happening, but that's the view they should maintain(am I right so far??)?

 

Sorry to chime in:

The buddhist view is based on DEPendent origination, not INDependent origination (the difference is significant).

 

Also, buddhist cosmology incorporates endless universes, different planes (astral, whatever), planets, different types of beings (insects, humanoids, ethereal beings...), so there is no shortage of beings reincarnating or shortage of possibilities for reincarnation.

 

In maths there is the example of a hotel with infinite number of rooms, each single one reserved for a charter trip with infinitely many travelers. Suddenly the manager gets a call from the tour-booker: We have to change, our travelers have doubled - can you accommodate that? The hotel manager just assigns each of the previous guests the room number that is equal to their previous number times two (so if you had room number 1, you will have number 2 instead; if you had room 9 you will receive number 18 instead, and so on). Now there is room for the additional - infinite - guests.

 

Georg Cantor spawned some intriguing mathematics about infinities. Infinities can have quite strange behaviours.

 

Mandrake

[C T]

Is this life-affirming...?:

Life-affirming could sometimes mean 'do not ignore the manure'... plants thrive when manure is used intelligently. You seem to want to paint the picture that the DL is teaching 'just focus on the manure', which, in this case, is a complete veering off of the intended meaning.

 

"We have a saying about the virtue of being able to 'see life whole," for all meaning is in wholeness. There could be no golden eggs without the goose, and however tiresome, slow, and stupid the goose might be, she resembled life in that she was an interplay of opposites: she was slow, but her eggs were gold, and if you cut her up to pieces to gather the gold and discard the slowness you would be left with nothing but a carcass. This will also happen if you carve up the human body to find the mysterious source of its vitality or if you separate the flower of a plant from its muddied (well-manured) roots. Something very similar happens in a much more important way when men love life and hate death or cling to youth and reject old age, which is like expecting a mountain to have only one slope - that which goes up, whereas to be a mountain it must have a side that goes up and one that goes down. For the meaning is in the whole, and not only the meaning but the very existence of the thing. Indeed, we are only aware of life and life is only able to manifest itself because it is divided into innumerable pairs of opposites - we know motion by contrast with stillness, long by short, light by darkness, heat by cold, and joy by sorrow.

 

Therefore to see life whole is to understand these opposing qualities as essential to its existence, without trying to interfere, without dissecting the body of the universe so that the pleasant portions may be preserved and its unpleasant one cast aside."

-- Alan Watts

Edited December 10, 2010 by CowTao

[Birch]

Who is blaming the abused? At the same time, if I don't understand the continuum of life, than I wouldn't see how the outer world and it's circumstances that I've experienced and come into direct contact with are reflections of my own previous actions and intentions as life is a bank where I get 100 percent what I put into it. Shit doesn't just happen without causes, and that goes with personal experiences have personal causes.

 

Funnily enough (although this is no laughing matter) the abused tend to blame themselves because there is NO plausible explanation at hand to them. Indeed, the abuse is perpetuated by the abused (the "continuum" but not of life, of abuse, very specifically).

 

I suggest you read this http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php

 

I would also argue that yes, sometimes "shit" just happens and misplacing your responsibility (for actions that are not your own) and taking responsibility where none is offered is somewhat pathological IMO.

 

I am sorry you were abused and suffered so much VJ.

[Vajrahridaya]

Funnily enough (although this is no laughing matter) the abused tend to blame themselves because there is NO plausible explanation at hand to them. Indeed, the abuse is perpetuated by the abused (the "continuum" but not of life, of abuse, very specifically).

 

I suggest you read this http://www.alice-mil...om/index_en.php

 

I would also argue that yes, sometimes "shit" just happens and misplacing your responsibility (for actions that are not your own) and taking responsibility where none is offered is somewhat pathological IMO.

 

I am sorry you were abused and suffered so much VJ.

 

Thank you Kate!

 

This is not the kind of self blame I am referring to, but rather a super-normal recognition of cause and effect transcending this life. There is an order to chaos, and it can be recognized. It was a recognition that released me from so much despair and blame of any sort, even towards me really! It granted me so much forgiveness as well, deep sobbing forgiveness. This recognition was not that of an intellectual excuse, but rather a deep recognition of the nature of the universe, through various visions, it is experiential. No Kate, shit doesn't just happen. There is no effect without a cause, and both sides always play some sort of part in it, even if the child is indeed innocent, which is the case in a sense, even if that child was lets say a crook in a past life or even just a violent wolf, this does not excuse the parent or older person from their actions, I'm just saying that cause and effect is a mess but real.

 

The good thing is in my case, is that the major players in my abuse, including my parents have contemplated and apologized as well as made amends for their actions or in my mothers case, non-action. Even one of the kids who really layed into me in Elementary school has since apologized, actually just this year! I found him on FB. Some of the things he said to me in Elementary school as well as did to me really screwed my self esteem up for many years. Anyway... it's all been forgiven, to whatever degree that it has, as it's still a work in progress. But, I'm not a victim of chaos. I am also not condoning the actions of the abusers who all the around the world need to nullify the karma through meditation on their inner causes for acting out in this way.

 

P.S. Oh yes... by the way, I did enjoy the link.

Edited December 10, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

 

 

First I'll just throw out a correction, because there is a huge difference between the intent and meaning of independent origination and dependent origination. So, the Buddhist view is dependent origination, the Theist view is independent origination. These contemplations lead to entirely different understandings of the nature of things. Independent origination proposes a universe that is originated by an independent source, endowed with creative will as the one behind the many. Dependent origination reveals infinite regress and endless differences without beginning or end, and this is the Buddhist view.

 

Ok, moving on...

 

 

Ok, got it....well, kind of. I'll probably ask you the same thing again in a few months, but be patient with me it takes my brain a bit of getting around. In any case I've realized this has nothing to do with what I'm gonna' talk about(my fault, not yours)

 

 

As far as the math for reincarnation. Do you see how many people act like animals? Well, plenty of people were animals. Also beings are being born here from other dimensions all the time, lower dimensions, higher dimensions, alien worlds. I've met some straight up aliens, first time humans. Sometimes very, very strange who admit to having been alien in their immediate past life. Anyway... it's not so linear as you are considering.

 

 

Agreed, my view is also the same. I also see the word 'reincarnation' as a misnomer due to the prefix 're'in the English language suggesting time. From my own experience I have see what is apparently myself.... or some form of myself... as a big oval 'thing' with consciousness and some forms of tentacles(no better word, sorry) protruding and on each end a kind of globe containing one of my/its lifetimes..... happening at that very same one time(seriously, if anyone else has had this let me know, I dont wanna be the only nutter in the room).

 

 

What you are asking when you say... "a person may not necessarily get to the end of the view to see what's happening" A person won't get to the first cause of themself, if that's what your asking, as there isn't one. But, you can get to the personal cause of Samsaric experience. That is found by delving into your own mind and removing all illusions of self attachment and clinging on an experiential level, first philosophically, then meditatively, then through self liberation in activity.

 

But if you are looking for the beginning of your personal mind stream? That is an attachment that will never be fulfilled, as long as it remains an attachment, or desire. That is part of the craving of grasping at a self. To try and find a primordial Self is considered impossible by Buddhist standards. Because Buddhism doesn't consider the big bang the beginning, but merely an aspect of a never ending cycle of infinite potential, the ever many. Which is why Buddhists don't go for the concept of universal oneness, or get lost in an experience of "oneness" as that experience has a tendency to overwhelm subtle discernment with an attachment to bliss as an absolute Self.

 

 

Now, this is the part I wanna talk about. A person won't get to their first cause. I disagree... but then again you may have a difference of opinion than I do as to what 'first cause' means.

 

My meaning is this, I totally agree that there are people knocking about that are not essentially 'human', or from the 'norm', if there is a 'norm'. There are some strange things that incarnate and pass themselves off as ...er....human...for want of a better term. Bearing in mind they are not on the 'up and up' if you know what I mean, their evolution is totally different, in fact it may be fair to say Buddhism, or any other kind of spirituality would be totally inappropriate for them. Who knows, perhaps Daoists are all a particular kind of evolution seeking to stay within the physical plane and dimensions close to it, never wanting to leave, as this is their absolute home(if that's possible). Not to say that they couldn't choose to become liberated mind you if they wanted to.

 

Anyway, back to lust and friction which is my main thrust(no pun intended...I didn't intend a Freudian slip either, but that's par for the course...nothing like a good long club by the way), so.... Vaj you seem like a man of the dimensions, so would you not agree that there are ...hmmm...terminology is getting problematic...there are 'souls'(just cant find a better term)that are created through two....er....souls, merging their energy in a beautiful synergy...candle lights and all that too if you fancy...bit of Barry White also.....of energy, for the specific purpose of creating a 'baby', not a physical one(you know what I mean).

 

If that is so(which it is)surely it's not too hard to look up your first cause, it's a piece of cake in fact when you've passed on. Not everyone has some kind of deeper mysterious unknowable first cause, actually many beings beginning is rather dull really. No mystery at all. Oh I know everyone would like to think so though. Just, here's your father and here's your mother would do in many cases. Spirits, or whatever one may call them, are getting up to the same old rubbish on the planes close to the physical as they do here!

 

Anyway, I'm not sure I have a final point here Vaj, simply I'm not sure that everyone is suitable for Buddhism due to their own 'home' dimension, and also there are many souls/spirits or whatever one may call them....who's origin is quite basic and simple actually. Why would they need to go anywhere if they are already 'home'.

 

Lets talk dimensional beings Vaj, 'cos that subject rocks in my opinion!

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

Sorry to chime in:

The buddhist view is based on DEPendent origination, not INDependent origination (the difference is significant).

 

 

Ya, sorry, my bad. It's always confusing me to be frank.

 

 

In maths there is the example of a hotel with infinite number of rooms, each single one reserved for a charter trip with infinitely many travelers. Suddenly the manager gets a call from the tour-booker: We have to change, our travelers have doubled - can you accommodate that? The hotel manager just assigns each of the previous guests the room number that is equal to their previous number times two (so if you had room number 1, you will have number 2 instead; if you had room 9 you will receive number 18 instead, and so on). Now there is room for the additional - infinite - guests.

 

Georg Cantor spawned some intriguing mathematics about infinities. Infinities can have quite strange behaviours.

 

Mandrake

 

Very interesting, it reminded me to steer clear of the subject of Math!

 

Not sure I get where the infinite number of rooms is coming from on Earth. As in bodies. I've probably missed the point Mandrake, it's not your fault though. Perhaps my problem is surely it should be a steady number over time. Perhaps my question should be why so many now? Actually I would suggest it may be because all the 'humans' who then die and end up knocking about on the inner planes then keep spawning 'energy babies' which have nowhere else to go except down/in in order to gain enough velocity to go 'out'. It supports my theory as stated in my response to Vaj anyway. What do you think?

[Vajrahridaya]

Ok, got it....well, kind of. I'll probably ask you the same thing again in a few months, but be patient with me it takes my brain a bit of getting around. In any case I've realized this has nothing to do with what I'm gonna' talk about(my fault, not yours)

 

Ok... no problem.

 

 

Agreed, my view is also the same. I also see the word 'reincarnation' as a misnomer due to the prefix 're'in the English language suggesting time. From my own experience I have see what is apparently myself.... or some form of myself... as a big oval 'thing' with consciousness and some forms of tentacles(no better word, sorry) protruding and on each end a kind of globe containing one of my/its lifetimes..... happening at that very same one time(seriously, if anyone else has had this let me know, I dont wanna be the only nutter in the room).

 

I understand this perspective and it's nice. Not too practical, but it helps as a different perspective. I've also had it, so no, you're not a nutter.

 

It's more practical to think in terms of progress of process, though recognizing internally that it's all equally empty, right now. If you don't recognize the process of progress, you might get caught up in all sorts of intellectual and emotional excuses to just not put in the work that's necessary to participate on a spiritual journey!

 

I want to reiterate the fact that really does make Buddhism different. For us, we don't take the timeless, non-linear, silence, or the non-conceptual as any more ultimate than the paradigm of progression of time, or noise, or the realm of concepts. They are both relative, dependently originated and empty of inherent existence, they are connected, but not one, they are empty, but not of one inherent substance or even one inherent non-substance.

 

Now, this is the part I wanna talk about. A person won't get to their first cause. I disagree... but then again you may have a difference of opinion than I do as to what 'first cause' means.

 

My meaning is this, I totally agree that there are people knocking about that are not essentially 'human', or from the 'norm', if there is a 'norm'. There are some strange things that incarnate and pass themselves off as ...er....human...for want of a better term. Bearing in mind they are not on the 'up and up' if you know what I mean, their evolution is totally different, in fact it may be fair to say Buddhism, or any other kind of spirituality would be totally inappropriate for them. Who knows, perhaps Daoists are all a particular kind of evolution seeking to stay within the physical plane and dimensions close to it, never wanting to leave, as this is their absolute home(if that's possible). Not to say that they couldn't choose to become liberated mind you if they wanted to.

 

I understand, the variables are endless.

Anyway, back to lust and friction which is my main thrust(no pun intended...I didn't intend a Freudian slip either, but that's par for the course...nothing like a good long club by the way), so.... Vaj you seem like a man of the dimensions, so would you not agree that there are ...hmmm...terminology is getting problematic...there are 'souls'(just cant find a better term)that are created through two....er....souls, merging their energy in a beautiful synergy...candle lights and all that too if you fancy...bit of Barry White also.....of energy, for the specific purpose of creating a 'baby', not a physical one(you know what I mean).

 

Well sure, this happens in higher realms, even before this Earth dimension universe came into being. But the information or mind stream of the new offspring still had a past life. That wasn't the beginning of that individual mind stream. All infinite mind streams have an infinite beginning, not one beginning, but an endless beginning... all equally empty now, but still, progression is endless for all endless mind-streams. No way to count how many.

If that is so(which it is)surely it's not too hard to look up your first cause, it's a piece of cake in fact when you've passed on. Not everyone has some kind of deeper mysterious unknowable first cause, actually many beings beginning is rather dull really. No mystery at all. Oh I know everyone would like to think so though. Just, here's your father and here's your mother would do in many cases. Spirits, or whatever one may call them, are getting up to the same old rubbish on the planes close to the physical as they do here!

 

It's true, and just like how a mind stream is born here from a previous life, so are they also born in higher or lower realms from a previous life, and a previous life before that, without beginning.

 

Anyway, I'm not sure I have a final point here Vaj, simply I'm not sure that everyone is suitable for Buddhism due to their own 'home' dimension, and also there are many souls/spirits or whatever one may call them....who's origin is quite basic and simple actually. Why would they need to go anywhere if they are already 'home'.

 

Lets talk dimensional beings Vaj, 'cos that subject rocks in my opinion!

 

I agree, it does rock! But, I do have a disagreement with you here, no one dimension is a home for someone, in the absolute sense, because no one dimension is absolute by itself. Because your memory only goes so far as having been born in one dimension or another, doesn't mean this is so, as the beings of those other more refined level dimensions or alien dimensions also had past lives of having been of another dimension, or similar dimension... to whatever degree the attachment is for that individual mind stream. For instance, the Earth came from this sun, which came from this galaxy which came from this universe, and where did this universe come from? Well it came from another previous universe or connected older universe, as well as all the inhabitants here came from somewhere, before... in the most linear sense of things.

Edited December 10, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[Vajrahridaya]

Edited December 10, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[KoolAid900]

Ya, sorry, my bad. It's always confusing me to be frank.

 

 

 

Could be b/c sometimes it is called dependent origination and sometimes interdependent origination. I got confused about that at first.

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

 

Well sure, this happens in higher realms, even before this Earth dimension universe came into being. But the information or mind stream of the new offspring still had a past life.

 

It's true, and just like how a mind stream is born here from a previous life, so are they also born in higher or lower realms from a previous life, and a previous life before that, without beginning.

 

 

 

But, I do have a disagreement with you here, no one dimension is a home for someone, in the absolute sense, because no one dimension is absolute by itself. Because your memory only goes so far as having been born in one dimension or another, doesn't mean this is so, as the beings of those other more refined level dimensions or alien dimensions also had past lives of having been of another dimension, or similar dimension... to whatever degree the attachment is for that individual mind stream.

 

Ok, so I've highlighted the main points of my next question.

 

Now, if two energies merge to create a new one then they are creating a new one...not a previous one surely. Or you mean, in the same way that the sexual act creates an energy signature on earth which attracts a soul/spirit into the physical then in the other dimensions it's the same?

 

Is that what you mean? I always assumed that a spirit can simply reduce their vibration to a certain degree in order to inhabit that plane for a time. It may be a bit wobbly, but it's still possible without losing your memory. This brings me to a next question. Exactly what is the point to be born into a possibly slower dimension? Why would any soul be re-born then re-born again and again, gradually moving away from 'the good stuff' as I call it. General degeneration? Wrong action? Choice or not?

 

As far as I can make out Vaj (and you can correct me if I'm way wrong) Buddhism is a practice of expanding the mind (poor term I know) in order to be aware of all the possible views and dimensions where one has existed and perhaps even not existed, onwards and upwards/inwards. This expansion reduces suffering in some way, as being able to view a situation from 'above' gives true perspective, which then reduces suffering due to understanding. And so on ad-infinitum.

 

And then what happens? What was the point? I don't mean to sound trite by the way, I'm just really wondering what was the whole point in the first place....ya, I know there wasn't exactly a 'first place'....but seriously, what was the point?

[Vajrahridaya]

Ok, so I've highlighted the main points of my next question.

 

Now, if two energies merge to create a new one then they are creating a new one...not a previous one surely. Or you mean, in the same way that the sexual act creates an energy signature on earth which attracts a soul/spirit into the physical then in the other dimensions it's the same? Is that what you mean?

 

Yes.

 

I always assumed that a spirit can simply reduce their vibration to a certain degree in order to inhabit that plane for a time. It may be a bit wobbly, but it's still possible without losing your memory. This brings me to a next question. Exactly what is the point to be born into a possibly slower dimension? Why would any soul be re-born then re-born again and again, gradually moving away from 'the good stuff' as I call it. General degeneration? Wrong action? Choice or not?

 

All three, depending on the person. A Buddha at one point went through the first two to the 3rd. Most of us revolve around the first 2. But, plenty can do the 3rd without being a Buddha out of some sort of personal attachment or another.

As far as I can make out Vaj (and you can correct me if I'm way wrong) Buddhism is a practice of expanding the mind (poor term I know) in order to be aware of all the possible views and dimensions where one has existed and perhaps even not existed, onwards and upwards/inwards. This expansion reduces suffering in some way, as being able to view a situation from 'above' gives true perspective, which then reduces suffering due to understanding. And so on ad-infinitum.

 

Yes! But, that doesn't mean that a Buddha will remember all infinite past lives, just enough to learn the lessons necessary to see through the mass of Samsara and turn it into the inner experience of Nirvana.

 

And then what happens? What was the point? I don't mean to sound trite by the way, I'm just really wondering what was the whole point in the first place....ya, I know there wasn't exactly a 'first place'....but seriously, what was the point?

 

It has to be realized deep within that the point is just to live the rest of Eternity in freedom and service, that is the only point. Before Buddhahood we go through all sorts of points to life, we live for some sort of personal achievement, we live for our family, we live to accumulate pleasures. That's why generally when one meets the spiritual path, one is excited at first, then troubled, then as Jesus say's in the Gospel of Thomas, you rule over the all! Not in that I'm the king sense, but just that you are not at the mercy of Samsara anymore. Basically when you go through the troubled part, all your previous ideas of purpose that seemed satisfying just seem totally pointless now, and this realization releases lots of trapped pain, and one might experience a sense of depression, apathy for a time being, or overwhelming empathy as well, the type that just incapacitates you. Anyway, I think it's all just part of the process. This question you ask is very good and a good sign, though it can bring up lots of stuff. This is why Buddhism is so ordered, not ambiguous, and very clear. It is not like other religions in the "organized" sense. It is conceptually organized, and the Buddha did that on purpose, because people need these kinds of supports. The 8 fold path is that kind of support, that support that gives a person who is having the realizations that you are having, a purpose. What's the purpose?

 

1. Right view

2. Right intention

3. Right speech

4. Right action

5. Right livelihood

6. Right effort

7. Right mindfulness

8. Right concentration

 

Leading too,

 

9. Superior right knowledge

10. Superior right liberation

 

And as they say, "before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water, and after enlightenment, chop wood, carry water."

 

So even after enlightenment, after one has 9. and 10. One still does 1 through 8, forever. The 8 fold path are both the path to enlightenment, and a reflection of enlightened conduct and purpose.

 

The specifics of how that will manifest for you as your personal purpose, is really up to you to find out. No one can tell you this but you. But, it should all reflect the 8 fold path, both before enlightenment and after enlightenment.

Edited December 11, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[三江源]

ha.

 

I always start laughing when the question about what the ultimate point of it all is, unless I'm looking through a blue mood lense, in which case the world drains of colour, and it is seriously not funny any more...

 

It's time to start laughing, and crying at the beauty of it all.

 

I have to recommend the Tarthang Tulku books about Time Space and Knowledge, for the perspective which answers this.

 

(am working on getting rid of blue lensed glasses..)

[Vajrahridaya]

ha.

 

I always start laughing when the question about what the ultimate point of it all is, unless I'm looking through a blue mood lense, in which case the world drains of colour, and it is seriously not funny any more...

 

It's time to start laughing, and crying at the beauty of it all.

 

I have to recommend the Tarthang Tulku books about Time Space and Knowledge, for the perspective which answers this.

 

(am working on getting rid of blue lensed glasses..)

 

Yes, I get both still, the blue and the red. Both can be incapacitating in one way or another, one is just too much bliss and the other is just too much "what the heck is the point?" The extremes of Eternalism and Nihilism still play themselves out in my trapped psyche.

 

The glimpses of the middle way are both grounding and thirst quenching.

 

 

Tarthang Tulku is a prolific writer! An even more prolific Dzogchen master and an example of the richness of the enlightened side of Tibetan culture.

 

P.S. The book you are talking about is on the second page, right?

 

Tarthang Tulku books... lots of them.

 

See, now this is a person who's found his purpose in life! Man, that's awesome!

Edited December 11, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[Vajrahridaya]

I guess this is what you're talking about Cat?

 

Time, Space & Knowledge: A New Vision of Reality (Nyingma Psychology Series)

 

and I guess this is his commentary on this book?

 

Sacred Dimensions of Time & Space (Perspectives on Time, Space & Knowledge)

Edited December 11, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

 

 

1. Right view

2. Right intention

3. Right speech

4. Right action

5. Right livelihood

6. Right effort

7. Right mindfulness

8. Right concentration

 

 

Thanks for all you have written so far Vaj, it's been most informative. I think I just have one more question for the time being, although your answer may illicit another question from me

 

Can you define 'right' for me?. In my view that's a bit difficult. I have no interest in morals...although I understand why society created them, but as far as I personally experience there is a period of time where morals go out the window due to a breaking down of the ego and a rising of the inner darkness. I realize that after this stage the person has somewhat reduced themselves to some kind of zero state, degree by degree more than in one fell swoop, and that after this time a gradual building of the connection to the source/light...hmmm, not sure what to call it, kind of gives a person a 'leaning' shall we say to 'right action', as opposed to societies structure that says 'if you're a good boy I'll like you', which then follows onto into adulthood and the socially conditioned self.

 

I think I've partially answered my own question Vaj, but give it a crack anyway.

 

 

@Cat: The rose tinted ones are the best. For those who enjoy rude awakenings when they slip off it's especially so.

[Vajrahridaya]

Thanks for all you have written so far Vaj, it's been most informative. I think I just have one more question for the time being, although your answer may illicit another question from me

 

Can you define 'right' for me?. In my view that's a bit difficult. I have no interest in morals...although I understand why society created them, but as far as I personally experience there is a period of time where morals go out the window due to a breaking down of the ego and a rising of the inner darkness. I realize that after this stage the person has somewhat reduced themselves to some kind of zero state, degree by degree more than in one fell swoop, and that after this time a gradual building of the connection to the source/light...hmmm, not sure what to call it, kind of gives a person a 'leaning' shall we say to 'right action', as opposed to societies structure that says 'if you're a good boy I'll like you', which then follows onto into adulthood and the socially conditioned self.

 

I think I've partially answered my own question Vaj, but give it a crack anyway.

 

Yes, you absolutely did answer your own question. Basically, "right" evolves... Like right view goes from intellectual, to experiential, from mental consideration to intuition.

 

Right livelihood also goes from a sense of conformity to to an ideal of good, to just spontaneous expression, either artistically, or some sort of positive activity... it will all be beneficial though, for you and those around you, even if it's not seen as such on the surface as it might be breaking social norms that have arisen based upon ignorance or limited views. But, the Buddha explains the tenets of "right" for hinayana, which changes for mahayana and again changes for vajrayana reflective of different stages of personal development. Then what you are talking about more lies within dzogchen, when "right" is just a spontaneous reflection of primordial awareness in the non-dualistic sense, but with a wide scope of understanding the nature of cause and effect with deep respect for it's reality.

 

Basically, right in this sense reflects how wide ones intuitive scope of dependent origination is. But, it's good to have some basics, like the Buddha taught Ahimsa... "Do no harm." That is pretty basic. Don't do harm in any of your actions and you'll be fine.

[RongzomFan]

I don't know why Vaj focuses on elementary Buddhist teachings.

 

Understanding Dzogchen is the best, and supersedes any other teaching.

[Vajrahridaya]

I don't know why Vaj focuses on elementary Buddhist teachings.

 

Understanding Dzogchen is the best, and supersedes any other teaching.

 

I'm not qualified to teach the profundity of Dzogchen, so it's recommended that someone like me should just talk and discuss sutra.

 

Also, Dzogchen doesn't supersede, but rather completes all the different yanas. It doesn't really subvert any of the yanas, just realizes their importance and their essential meaning perfectly.

 

Read Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoches Precious Vase and that becomes clear.

[Vajrahridaya]

Training in all the yanas is essential to understanding the "actualized" meaning of the Dzogchen teaching, otherwise the Buddha wouldn't have even taught the first turning of the wheel.

[dwai]

According to Robert Bruce, unless one has experienced a fist sized very physical "thing" go up your perineum, sloshing your internal organs around, experience the brow strobe flash etc., you have NOT experienced kundalini.

 

Not every energy movement is kundalini.

 

So called "masters" don't know shit about kundalini.

 

kundalini can be experienced as the most painful, harrowing flow of energy or a gentle, soothing breeze. It depends on the subject and the "condition" of his/her nadis. If one has purified the nadis sufficiently and cleared up blockages, the flow is soft and easy. If one is forcing the energy to rise it is going to be an intense feeling.

 

There is no single "right" way. Many don't even realize the energy has risen till it rises to a region where there are more blockages. Sometimes the signs of kundalini activity is simply a throbbing/vibration in the chakra where it is passing through. After it has passed through the region it has just crossed will feel cold.

[Vajrahridaya]

kundalini can be experienced as the most painful, harrowing flow of energy or a gentle, soothing breeze. It depends on the subject and the "condition" of his/her nadis. If one has purified the nadis sufficiently and cleared up blockages, the flow is soft and easy. If one is forcing the energy to rise it is going to be an intense feeling.

 

There is no single "right" way. Many don't even realize the energy has risen till it rises to a region where there are more blockages. Sometimes the signs of kundalini activity is simply a throbbing/vibration in the chakra where it is passing through. After it has passed through the region it has just crossed will feel cold.

 

I do agree.

[dwai]

My friend, if you want to raise the "traditional" argument. Your academic friends can verify that Kundalini is worshipped as a goddess. She is referred to as a goddess countless times in countless texts. She is always connected to awareness and consciousness. There is no tradition that claims kundalini is not an intelligent force. If you are talking about a force of energy that has no consciousness, then you are talking about Prana not kundalini. Physical sensations are more connected to prana than kundalini.... Vajrahridaya though coming from a buddhist perpective is also in line with Hindu tanrics in his understanding that Kundalini is directly connected to Karma and awareness.

 

actually that depends on which darshana (or traditional school of thought) you are viewing it from. In a dualistic form of Sankhya, Shakti (Kundalini) is the creative energy but not intelligent. The intelligence is consciousness (so Shakti and Shiva, Prakriti and Purusha). In non-dualistic traditions like Advaita Vedanta, there is no difference between shakti and consciousness (I guess for sake of simplicity we could call that intelligence) since there is none other than that one (Tad Ekam).

[三江源]

I guess this is what you're talking about Cat?

 

Time, Space & Knowledge: A New Vision of Reality (Nyingma Psychology Series)

 

and I guess this is his commentary on this book?

 

Sacred Dimensions of Time & Space (Perspectives on Time, Space & Knowledge)

 

Yes, he's flowing on the topic, which isnt really a topic.. it's the very stuff of existence, which doesnt really exist.. etc etc etc.

 

Liberating. Ultimate Liberation.

 

He is able to penetrate and elucidate that which is apparent when one disapears and there is an illumined no time panoply of all there is will be and ever was.

 

as it were, in brief, so to speak...

[三江源]

kundalini can be experienced as the most painful, harrowing flow of energy or a gentle, soothing breeze. It depends on the subject and the "condition" of his/her nadis. If one has purified the nadis sufficiently and cleared up blockages, the flow is soft and easy. If one is forcing the energy to rise it is going to be an intense feeling.

 

There is no single "right" way. Many don't even realize the energy has risen till it rises to a region where there are more blockages. Sometimes the signs of kundalini activity is simply a throbbing/vibration in the chakra where it is passing through. After it has passed through the region it has just crossed will feel cold.

 

I also have been taught that how one experiences K is entirely due to one's state of virtue. The more blocked , the more force experienced.

[RongzomFan]

I'm not qualified to teach the profundity of Dzogchen, so it's recommended that someone like me should just talk and discuss sutra.

 

Also, Dzogchen doesn't supersede, but rather completes all the different yanas. It doesn't really subvert any of the yanas, just realizes their importance and their essential meaning perfectly.

 

Read Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoches Precious Vase and that becomes clear.

 

 

Jigme Lingpa and the omniscient ones says that it is an error to correlate the lower yanas with Dzogchen.

 

It is definitely an error trying to bring lower yana understanding into Dzogchen.

 

Dzogchen supersedes any other understanding, as it is an independent vehicle but can also be used as completion stage.

Edited December 11, 2010 by alwayson