Is This The Truth About Kundalini?

[Vajrahridaya]

I'm explaining the relevance of moods to ornaments. I'm not talking about liberation. People are interested in both. People want to be free and they want their lives to be beautiful.

I was not disagreeing with that. Of course they are ornaments.

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

 

Right livelihood also goes from a sense of conformity to to an ideal of good, to just spontaneous expression, either artistically, or some sort of positive activity... it will all be beneficial though, for you and those around you, even if it's not seen as such on the surface as it might be breaking social norms that have arisen based upon ignorance or limited views. But, the Buddha explains the tenets of "right" for hinayana, which changes for mahayana and again changes for vajrayana reflective of different stages of personal development. Then what you are talking about more lies within dzogchen, when "right" is just a spontaneous reflection of primordial awareness in the non-dualistic sense, but with a wide scope of understanding the nature of cause and effect with deep respect for it's reality.

 

 

Thanks.

 

 

Basically, right in this sense reflects how wide ones intuitive scope of dependent origination is.

 

 

I particularly liked this sentence above. There's a lot in that one sentence.

[ralis]

 

 

 

Theories of karma deal with the mental, physical and emotional, they also deal with intention. They deal with all aspects of action, as that is what karma means.

 

When you experience it's wisdom directly, you break down and sob out lifetimes of karmic blockage, which then turns to blissful tears, then clarity in action.

 

Ralis, I think by your revelation, that you are too caught up in your lower 3 chakras, and are very physical, maybe even overly grounded. When you shared your experiences with Vipassana, I think this reflects this overly physical aspect of your experience. You are very much locked in body consciousness. You don't really reveal much of the heart chakra or ajna chakra experiences. Much less crown chakra experiences. I think when you experience someone as being, "not in their body"... they are just not in the body on your level. Your level of body seems very dense to me. This I can feel, not so much in my body at first moment, but in my auric field, my mental or emotional level of energy, as well as in my ajna... then it is experienced in my body, the slowest and most dense level of consciousness, in the linear time sense of dimensional experience at least.

 

I think based upon everything that you have shared, which has revealed plenty about where you are at, that you do not understand Dzogchen and that you should get some more transmissions and read some more books on the subject.

 

This is my personal opinion, and you can take it or leave it.

 

 

I am not interested in your opinion or advice. Especially, after what you wrote about yourself over on the 12 step AA thread.

[Birch]

You are thinking to emotionally and not going deep into the rational, which transcends the emotion and should temper the emotional. Really, they should join hips as twins.

 

What needs to be understood, is that the child wasn't just born, the child had past lives, shit doesn't just happen. If you haven't seen your past lives, then of course you would have doubts. I have no doubts. It's something that strikes at the very heart of the ignorance of chaos. By your response, you think Chaos is absolute and real by itself. Chaos is order misunderstood and order is chaos seen clearly. even in Chaos theory, what seems chaotic reveals a pattern as you see more deeply into it.

 

This in no way justifies violent behavior or justifies abuse. That is not what I'm saying. What I'm doing is revealing that everything has causes that extend even past this life. No one is truly innocent, unless you are realizing the nature of emptiness directly. A baby still has beginningless lifetimes of karma to play out, unless they are coming to the spiritual path and emptying all those impressions or transforming them into conditions for enlightened expression.

 

What I'm saying is a very profound realization and understanding, that hits like a ton of bricks. It doesn't excuse the abuser from responsibility, it just reveals why a particular person was there to experience that, not as a justification, but as an effect of previous causes that most people can't see because mostly we are so caught up on the surface of things. This understanding of karma, in no way justifies apathy though, as it should bring up a deeper experience of compassion and the desire to reach out and help both people involved.

 

 

 

 

You're thinking in terms of your Christian upbringing. It's not punishment, it's simply cause and effect. Who knows, the abused child could grow up to go through heartache and pain, only to turn it around into conditions for deep compassion and the will to help hundreds of abused children do the same. A person, if interested in going past the surface of things, should contemplate deeper ramifications of things.

 

 

 

It doesn't, but Christian upbringing and the strong desire to run away from these concepts of punishment, might project that.

 

It's not a "Buddhist" model, it's actually a deep realization of what is. Well, in that sense it is a Buddhist model in the sense that Buddha merely means "awake."

 

No one is innocent, but everyone and anyone can essentially realize their primordial freedom and experience the clarity of innocence. Even Buddhas did horrible things in past lives, and we are lucky to have some living examples who actually have shared these experiences with us. They are far beyond these horrible things that they have done in past lives, and they now live from the lessons learned concerning the nature of these horrible actions committed by them, even maybe in this life! There is for instance Angulimala who murdered hundreds of people and robbed hundreds of people, but became a disciple of the Buddha in that lifetime 2,500 years ago and was a very deeply realized disciple of the Buddha by the end of his life.

 

Kate... no one is justifying anything, and no one is saying that they are being punished for something. It's just cause and effect, there is no effect, without causes, coming from both sides... it's a continuum. This has to be realized, not thought about per say, as the thinking of it will get in the way. It has to be seen directly.

 

This realization healed lifetimes of pain and helped me experience deep forgiveness for both my parents and the kids involved in my abuse as a youth.

 

There is no underestimating the power of the realization of past lives to clear away so many misunderstandings about the nature of things, and this seeming chaos called "The Universe."

 

P.S. Goldisheavy explains what I was trying to say very well. I just read his post after I wrote this one.

 

 

Um, VJ, how on earth would you know what my upbringing was?

And how on earth would you know what my thought process was when reaching the understanding I did?

 

I guess you might say "Kate, it seems like you're XYZ to me but I'm not sure if that's a reflection of my upbringing or yours" or something along those lines. It seems you're stuck in some kind of clinging to Buddhist explanations of things without realising you're stuck on a concept that, if you're going to go all out with on your path, you have to let go of too.

[三江源]

 

 

When you experience it's wisdom directly, you break down and sob out lifetimes of karmic blockage, which then turns to blissful tears,

 

 

 

 

This is true.

[三江源]

No "right" to make that judgment? Amusing choice of verbiage. Of course he has the right to do so - or has free speech been banished while I wasn't looking? If you honestly and sincerely self-reflected on the words instead of immediately trying to figure out in what way they were meant to demean you, then you might take a step forward - this is looking more and more like trying to tell a toddler to stop throwing tantrums and having them yell back at you that they are NOT throwing a tantrum!

 

We all assess each other through our words here, unfortunately we have little else to go by. One can certainly look at the focus and quality of another's posts and make certain educated guesses. Whether they are completely correct or not is aside the point. If somebody make an observation of me, it is up to me to conclude for myself where it is coming from, is it valid, and then assail myself with those very criticisms and decide honestly for myself if the criticisms hold or fail in the court of my own mindground. If that person is correct, am I to reflect upon myself for the opening for the criticism, or simply be critical of where it seemingly came from? Lashing out at "the source of the criticism" is most certainly not looking at the root.

 

The minutiae of your relationship with Norbu's teachings is yours - but those of us walking the ground around the tree do not see those roots - what is seen is the quality of the fruit, the health of the leaves and branches.

 

 

Joeblast said it.

 

Ralis, I sympathise with your wish to be discreet about yourself on a public forum. The thing is, we cant hide from one another. It isnt possible.

[ralis]

Um, VJ, how on earth would you know what my upbringing was?

And how on earth would you know what my thought process was when reaching the understanding I did?

 

I guess you might say "Kate, it seems like you're XYZ to me but I'm not sure if that's a reflection of my upbringing or yours" or something along those lines. It seems you're stuck in some kind of clinging to Buddhist explanations of things without realising you're stuck on a concept that, if you're going to go all out with on your path, you have to let go of too.

 

He fancies himself as a mind reader. That he is not.

[Vajrahridaya]

I am not interested in your opinion or advice. Especially, after what you wrote about yourself over on the 12 step AA thread.

 

Oh, what happened in my life up to 15 years ago before I came to spirituality? Wow, this more deeply reflects your state of mind than anything you've ever said.

 

This shows how little you understand of dependent origination/emptiness on an experiential level. Your sense of judgment and damnation is pretty strong in you ralis.

 

As if people can't completely change? Anyway, the story of Angulimala was really life affirming for me!

[ralis]

Oh, what happened in my life up to 15 years ago before I came to spirituality? Wow, this more deeply reflects your state of mind than anything you've ever said.

 

This shows how little you understand of dependent origination/emptiness on an experiential level. Your sense of judgment and damnation is pretty strong in you ralis.

 

As if people can't completely change? Anyway, the story of Angulimala was really life affirming for me!

 

 

 

You admitted a few days ago that you still had problems. I am just reading what you admitted in that thread. The problem is that you admit openly to having a problem, then you deny it.

 

I am sorry you had problems. I grew up around alcoholics and dry drunks. I avoid them like the plaque. Denial was their main mode of behavior.

 

My point is that it is difficult to take you seriously. Sorry, but that is the way it is.

 

Here is what you said:

 

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/16563-any-12-steppers-in-the-room/page__view__findpost__p__227775

Edited December 12, 2010 by ralis

[Vajrahridaya]

Um, VJ, how on earth would you know what my upbringing was?

And how on earth would you know what my thought process was when reaching the understanding I did?

 

I guess you might say "Kate, it seems like you're XYZ to me but I'm not sure if that's a reflection of my upbringing or yours" or something along those lines. It seems you're stuck in some kind of clinging to Buddhist explanations of things without realising you're stuck on a concept that, if you're going to go all out with on your path, you have to let go of too.

 

I had a feeling you'd react in this way. Kate... your view is reflective of many people who take the Christian bypass concerning all religions, putting them all in the same pocket with subconscious referencing. You are from the West? No? You have been surrounded by Christian views then. Everyone who comes to an alternate view of spirituality has this view of Christianity. That I've met at least. This view of the mainstream Christian view of punishment and the disgust of it. I've experienced this projection of punishment on the theory of Karma of Hindu and Buddhist schools by so many Westerners because of their proximity with Christianity has created this fear of the idea of "retribution." Not to say you were once a Christian, but having proximity to it and your projection of the ideas of "punishment" are quite reflective of my experience with Westerners concerning the Hindu or Buddhist theories of karma. Ralis also shares your view. He also projects his experience of it all over me whenever he has a chance, calling my view akin to a Catholic Priest preaching hellfire and damnation?

 

I'm saying it's coming from a misunderstanding of the delicateness and subtlety of the view expressed by Buddhist masters.

 

The thing about Buddhism which makes it different, is that even in Buddhahood, one still practices Buddhism and merely experiences the body of Buddhism as the expression of enlightenment.

 

If you understand dependent origination, you see that there is nothing to attach to in Buddhism, that it is merely an explanation and methodology of the very state of liberation that the Buddha realized and that every Buddha has realized.

 

There is no non-conceptual ground that one transcends to in Buddhism. This is an Eternalist view and not the view of the middle way.

[RongzomFan]

Yes, Buddhism can be very boring for the ego, especially Hinayana. Vajrayana and Dzogchen have a tendency to appeal to the exciting emotional side of people. They tend to spark more vigor. It's there nature, they are less external and less conceptual and more experiential forms of Buddhism. I do understand where you're coming from. There has to be a deep sense of inspiration to even read and get through the Pali Canon.

 

Ralis does not even nominally take refuge in the triple gem. He missed that part about Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoches teachings and practice, how each and every practice starts with taking refuge in the triple gem, and most of the things he says reflects his deep misunderstanding of Dzogchen and it's intention, as well as even what the experience of Rigpa means. He reads Dzogchen as "intrinsic awareness" or "primordial awareness" and has this idea about what that means which is really pretty far from what it's intention is within the context of Dzogchen... he has monist ideas about the experience and concept, revolving around attachment to inherent existence. He doesn't even realize it.

 

 

I am sorry, but you are wrong here.

 

All wrong views get self-liberated into the natural state.

 

If ralis knows rigpa, you can't really judge him.

[Vajrahridaya]

You admitted a few days ago that you still had problems. I am just reading what you admitted in that thread. The problem is that you admit openly to having a problem, then you deny it.

 

I am sorry you had problems. I grew up around alcoholics and dry drunks. I avoid them like the plaque. Denial was their main mode of behavior.

 

Yes, I have problems. I have very particular issues, as you have your particular issues that are different from my issues. When did I deny having an issue with alcohol? This is not a solid issue. Trungpa had an issue with it as well, this was reflective of body chemistry, even so, he was still an accomplished master in many ways. All beings on Earth have character flaws in one way or another, it's just that Buddhas see past them even if they still manifest. There are different levels of Buddhahood too, as Shakyamuni was a wheel turning Buddha, he would have spent lifetimes working out these character flaws in order to manifest a body that was more clearly reflective of his teachings.

 

It is clear by your judgment of me as well as your other statements towards me for over a year and a half that you do not understand the experience of Rigpa or Dzogchen. You will use anything as an excuse to discredit anything and everything I have to say.

[ralis]

My apologies for getting this thread off track!

[Vajrahridaya]

I am sorry, but you are wrong here.

 

All wrong views get self-liberated into the natural state.

 

If ralis knows rigpa, you can't really judge him.

 

There is no way that this understanding is reflective of Dzogchen. Dzogchen still upholds "right view" just on an experiential level and it's expressions will be in clear conceptual reflection.

 

You really should study more and get some good reference for your understanding of Dzogchen.

[RongzomFan]

There is no way that this understanding is reflective of Dzogchen. Dzogchen still upholds "right view" just on an experiential level and it's expressions will be in clear conceptual reflection.

 

You really should study more and get some good reference for your understanding of Dzogchen.

 

 

No I am pretty sure I am correct. It says it explicitly in several places.

 

If ralis has experience with the natural state and continues in it, thats the only thing that matters.

[Vajrahridaya]

No I am pretty sure I am correct. It says it explicitly in several places.

 

If ralis has experience with the natural state and continues in it, thats the only thing that matters.

 

I know you are misunderstanding what you have read. If you were correct, than the Dzogchen masters wouldn't teach "the view" in accordance with Dzogchen tenets. For instance, views of Eternalism, view's of inherent existence, views like this are not reflective of the experience of Rigpa. The natural state is not an Eternal catch all, that would make Dzogchen no different from Advaita Vedanta.

 

If you were right, than why would Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche say that understanding "emptiness" from the point of view of Madhymaka was paramount to understanding the view of Dzogchen?

 

Dzogchen is the experience of right view, which is the view-less view as exposed by the Buddha. Ralis has a view and is really sticking with it. This is not reflective of the natural state and is more reflective of a formless jhana.

 

p.s. It is true that anyone in any religion can realize Dzogchen, but that means that they are transcending the view of their religion and taking up the view of primordial awareness of the ever empty nature of everything.

 

Just as Dzogchen view transcends the 2 truth view of lower vehicles in Buddhism which make up the corpus of sutra explanation. Thus of course transcending the meditative state of emptiness, and the explanation of emptiness as it's going right for the luminous nature of awareness, which is only clear if one has emptied it.

 

p.p.s. By your explanation, a serial killer could go on with his view as long as he maintains the natural state, as all views are liberated in the natural state?

 

Alwayson... the natural state IS a view, a liberated view filled with compassion and direct understanding of dependent origination.

Edited December 12, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[RongzomFan]

If you were right, than why would Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche say that understanding "emptiness" from the point of view of Madhymaka was paramount to understanding the view of Dzogchen?

 

 

When did he say this?

 

Jigme Lingpa absolutely ridicules Mādhyamaka.

[Vajrahridaya]

When did he say this?

 

Jigme Lingpa absolutely ridicules Mādhyamaka.

 

He's said it at talks and in different books. I think he says it in Crystal and the Way of Light? I remember him saying this at a retreat in NY though specifically.

 

The thing is, is that Madhyamaka can be an obstacle too if it's used as merely an intellectual exercise. I'd have to see your reference for this ridiculing of Madhyamaka though as that would be very un-Mahayana of him.

[RongzomFan]

He's said it at talks and in different books. I think he says it in Crystal and the Way of Light? I remember him saying this at a retreat in NY though specifically.

 

The thing is, is that Madhyamaka can be an obstacle too if it's used as merely an intellectual exercise. I'd have to see your reference for this ridiculing of Madhyamaka though as that would be very un-Mahayana of him.

 

 

Approaching the Great Perfection by Sam van Schaik

[Guest sykkelpump]

Yes, I have problems. I have very particular issues, as you have your particular issues that are different from my issues. When did I deny having an issue with alcohol? This is not a solid issue. Trungpa had an issue with it as well, this was reflective of body chemistry, even so, he was still an accomplished master in many ways. All beings on Earth have character flaws in one way or another, it's just that Buddhas see past them even if they still manifest. There are different levels of Buddhahood too, as Shakyamuni was a wheel turning Buddha, he would have spent lifetimes working out these character flaws in order to manifest a body that was more clearly reflective of his teachings.

 

It is clear by your judgment of me as well as your other statements towards me for over a year and a half that you do not understand the experience of Rigpa or Dzogchen. You will use anything as an excuse to discredit anything and everything I have to say.

 

I have read a lot of your post now and it seems like you try to impress with very complicated writings,whats impress me is to explain complicated things in an easy way.not the other way around.I absolutley get the impression that you are mostly a reader and not so very high on the spiritual ladder.I now have many years experience with meditation,and I can tell you if you poison your body regulary with alcohol you will never open up the channels and reach high spiritual level

[Guest sykkelpump]

Yes, I have problems. I have very particular issues, as you have your particular issues that are different from my issues. When did I deny having an issue with alcohol? This is not a solid issue. Trungpa had an issue with it as well, this was reflective of body chemistry, even so, he was still an accomplished master in many ways. All beings on Earth have character flaws in one way or another, it's just that Buddhas see past them even if they still manifest. There are different levels of Buddhahood too, as Shakyamuni was a wheel turning Buddha, he would have spent lifetimes working out these character flaws in order to manifest a body that was more clearly reflective of his teachings.

 

It is clear by your judgment of me as well as your other statements towards me for over a year and a half that you do not understand the experience of Rigpa or Dzogchen. You will use anything as an excuse to discredit anything and everything I have to say.

 

I have read a lot of your post now and it seems like you try to impress with very complicated writings,whats impress me is to explain complicated things in an easy way.not the other way around.I absolutley get the impression that you are mostly a reader and not so very high on the spiritual ladder.I now have many years experience with meditation,and I can tell you if you poison your body regulary with alcohol you will never open up the channels and reach high spiritual level

[Vajrahridaya]

I have read a lot of your post now and it seems like you try to impress with very complicated writings,whats impress me is to explain complicated things in an easy way.not the other way around.I absolutley get the impression that you are mostly a reader and not so very high on the spiritual ladder.I now have many years experience with meditation,and I can tell you if you poison your body regulary with alcohol you will never open up the channels and reach high spiritual level

 

I don't poison my body regularly with alcohol. I've lived a very pure life for many years of my life and sometimes go out and end up drinking too much with friends and I've noticed that it effects my body and brain chemistry differently than it does with other people. I've lived many different lifestyles, including living in an Ashram meditating 4 to 6 hours a day and chanting 4 to 6 hours a day, as well as doing selfless service 6 days a week and on my day off doing even more sitting practice, and lived in this ashram in this way for 5 years. I also took care of a man with muscular dystrophy for 2 of those years as a personal attendant. This man is a great yogi and was a good mentor. I've opened and experienced every chakra to one degree or another and I have experienced the different realms associated with those chakras as well as all 8 of the jhana states at one point or another, though I've not mastered them.

 

I'm no master, but I've experienced rigpa and the power of Dzogchen transmission directly over the last 6 years, as well as shaktipat through a Shaivite lineage 21 years ago.

 

So, I really am not concerned with your opinion as it has no baring on my reality.

 

From your post above, and it's structure, it doesn't seem like English is your first language. Is it, or not?

[Vajrahridaya]

Approaching the Great Perfection by Sam van Schaik

 

I'm not really interested in reading an entire book to find a couple of quotes. Since I have the book on google books, as I just did a search and found that. Can you just point me to the particular passages on what page and what paragraph?

 

I will also have to run this by Namdrol because as you know he can read Tibetan.

[Guest sykkelpump]

I don't poison my body regularly with alcohol. I've lived a very pure life for many years of my life and sometimes go out and end up drinking too much with friends and I've noticed that it effects my body and brain chemistry differently than it does with other people. I've lived many different lifestyles, including living in an Ashram meditating 4 to 6 hours a day and chanting 4 to 6 hours a day, as well as doing selfless service 6 days a week and on my day off doing even more sitting practice, and lived in this ashram in this way for 5 years. I also took care of a man with muscular dystrophy for 2 of those years as a personal attendant. This man is a great yogi and was a good mentor. I've opened and experienced every chakra to one degree or another and I have experienced the different realms associated with those chakras as well as all 8 of the jhana states at one point or another, though I've not mastered them.

 

I'm no master, but I've experienced rigpa and the power of Dzogchen transmission directly over the last 6 years, as well as shaktipat through a Shaivite lineage 21 years ago.

 

So, I really am not concerned with your opinion as it has no baring on my reality.

 

From your post above, and it's structure, it doesn't seem like English is your first language. Is it, or not?

 

no,i am not good in english

[RongzomFan]

I'm not really interested in reading an entire book to find a couple of quotes. Since I have the book on google books, as I just did a search and found that. Can you just point me to the particular passages on what page and what paragraph?

 

I will also have to run this by Namdrol because as you know he can read Tibetan.

 

 

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