Is This The Truth About Kundalini?

[Vajrahridaya]

 

Kundalini raises when the chakras are manipulated correctly, as described by Robert Bruce.

 

There are past life karmas trapped in the shashumna, and if kundalini was only opened at the base of the spine, then some wouldn't open with awareness in the hearth chakra, or from the crown down, and all sorts of other points of reference. The base chakra level awareness is just associated with the dimension of dense physicality, which is why those that awaken awareness of the shushumna there have intense physical responses.

 

P.S.

 

In Buddhism that base level stuff never happens like that, and if it does, then it's considered a deviation. That's because we awaken awareness at the heart level, or from the crown chakra moving down in a process of integration. That's why we don't have the term kundalini in our sanskrit texts. Because it's not "the coiled one" and it's not experienced in that bottom up fashion. The entire process of awakening is handled differently with a whole different lineage of deities that are not long lived "god" realm deities, but specifically Buddhist ones.

 

It's complicated when put into words... anyway, I have to go shopping for food.

 

Have fun!!

Edited December 5, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[RongzomFan]

 

Yes, all paths that mention that phenomena as Kundalini suggest that it's an independently intelligent force. It's in all the texts that mention it through that term.

 

Chakras are just a spin polarization of karmic energy visualized as wheels or inter-dimensional vortexes. They are manipulated through awareness.

 

 

Chakras are not visualized. When you feel in an emotion you will FEEL them in your body's chakras. There is nothing imaginary about it.

[RongzomFan]

In Buddhism that base level stuff never happens like that

 

 

My understanding is the Mahasiddhas, who are famed for attaining enlightenment the quickest used kundalini. Yes kundalini. In buddhism.

Edited December 5, 2010 by alwayson

[Vajrahridaya]

Chakras are not visualized. When you feel in an emotion you will FEEL them in your body's chakras. There is nothing imaginary about it.

 

Alright, I have to wait for my wife to get ready.

 

Yes, they are felt... I didn't mean they did not have relative existence.

[Vajrahridaya]

My understanding is the Mahasiddhas, who are famed for attaining enlightenment the quickest used all sorts of things especially kundalini. Yes kundalini. In buddhism.

 

The ancient Buddhist Masters never called it kundalini like the Hindu yogis did. It's mentioned later on by later interpreters, mostly in modern times. But, the light of awareness is treated with an entirely different interpretation in Buddhism than it is in Hindu or Theistic based paths. The phenomena is mentioned in a Buddhist texts as Chundali or something relating to the moon. But, it's a different phenomena and not that wild base level stuff. When that crazy stuff happens a Buddhist master will recommend some asanas or diet change and it's not treated as, "The will of God." But rather with a more practical understanding of karma.

Edited December 5, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[Vajrahridaya]

The Buddhist Mahasiddhas did not awaken awareness from the base chakra up, so they did not experience that wild uncoiling of dense karmas. So they did not name the phenomena of awakening higher levels of awareness as kundalini from the almighty like the theists did.

 

The Kundalini tradition of India is specifically a Theistic interpretation of everything.

 

I'm not saying the phenomena is not real, all I'm saying is that it's just awareness and karma.

Edited December 5, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[RongzomFan]

The ancient masters never called it kundalini like the Hindu yogis did. It's mentioned later on by later interpreters. But, the light of awareness is treated with an entirely different interpretation in Buddhism than it is in Hindu or Theistic based paths. The phenomena is mentioned in a Buddhist texts as Chundali or something relating to the moon. But, it's a different phenomena and not that wild base level stuff. When that crazy stuff happens a Buddhist master will recommend some asanas or diet change and it's not treated as, "The will of God." But rather with a more practical understanding of karma.

 

Buddhists and Hindus share the same 84 Mahasiddhas. Shit, some of them like Gorakshanath and Matsyendranath are veritable kundalini masters

[fiveelementtao]

I am in contact with ACADEMICS (Ph.D's in eastern studies) who have written about what traditional kundalini is all about using the oldest texts we have available in critical translation. Robert Bruce's account is the closest by far to what the traditional understanding of kundalini is.

 

Now what YOU are describing is based on Carl Jung's nonsense theories. Hardly traditional.....

 

Whao ATTITUDE ALERT! Crank it back a few notches Hoss. I'm sorry if a differing perspective threatens you...

 

First, I do not appreciate your tone. I am speaking honestly with no disrespect to anyone. I do not call anyone's experience "nonsense." AS YOU DO. My understandings come from my direct experience training with tantric Yogi masters. It is deeply traditional. If you have trained with other actual masters with a different perspective that is also traditional. There is always debate among traditions. If you have a different perspective. That is fine. Share that understanding. I will respect it. You tone and attitude and calling anyone's perspective nonsense is however very untraditional and honors no one. If you have masters you have trained with disrespecting others' experience brings your teachers dishonor...

 

Secondly ACADEMICS read books. Acedemicians have their place in the discussion to be sure. However, Most texts that these academics are reading have within them hidden messages and codes that cannot be understood completely without the teaching of a master who has been taught in the oral tradition. So, as interesting as academic sources are, they have never been accepted by actual tradition holders as being authentic sources for esoteric learning. (except of course in academic circles)

 

In the interests of free discussion and sharing of knowledge, I urge you not make this personal.

[RongzomFan]

Whao ATTITUDE ALERT! Crank it back a few notches Hoss. I'm sorry if a differing perspective threatens you...

 

First, I do not appreciate your tone. I am speaking honestly with no disrespect to anyone. I do not call anyone's experience "nonsense." AS YOU DO. My understandings come from my direct experience training with tantric Yogi masters. It is deeply traditional. If you have trained with other actual masters with a different perspective that is also traditional. There is always debate among traditions. If you have a different perspective. That is fine. Share that understanding. I will respect it. You tone and attitude and calling anyone's perspective nonsense is however very untraditional and honors no one. If you have masters you have trained with disrespecting others' experience brings your teachers dishonor...

 

Secondly ACADEMICS read books. Acedemicians have their place in the discussion to be sure. However, Most texts that these academics are reading have within them hidden messages and codes that cannot be understood completely without the teaching of a master who has been taught in the oral tradition. So, as interesting as academic sources are, they have never been accepted by actual tradition holders as being authentic sources for esoteric learning. (except of course in academic circles)

 

In the interests of free discussion and sharing of knowledge, I urge you not make this personal.

 

 

 

Wow you really need to look yourself in the mirror. You should take your own advice.

[fiveelementtao]

Wow you really need to look yourself in the mirror. You should take your own advice.

And if I'm not mistaken, didn't you ask a question? if you already knew the answer, why bother asking? Why not just state your opinion?

[fiveelementtao]

 

By the way, who is suggesting kundalini is an intelligent force?

 

Kundalini raises when the chakras are manipulated correctly, as described by Robert Bruce.

My friend, if you want to raise the "traditional" argument. Your academic friends can verify that Kundalini is worshipped as a goddess. She is referred to as a goddess countless times in countless texts. She is always connected to awareness and consciousness. There is no tradition that claims kundalini is not an intelligent force. If you are talking about a force of energy that has no consciousness, then you are talking about Prana not kundalini. Physical sensations are more connected to prana than kundalini.... Vajrahridaya though coming from a buddhist perpective is also in line with Hindu tanrics in his understanding that Kundalini is directly connected to Karma and awareness.

 

As to your second statement, according to most traditional yogic masters, you cannot manipulate the chakras. By placing your attention on any energy point will result in any number of physical/mental/emotional experiences. This is not manipulating chakras nor is it kundalini. Vajrahridaya has the traditional understanding. According to yogic masters, the only way to open chakras, is to stimulate kundalini through spiritual awareness. This is why yogis teach Bhakti (devotional) yoga, Karma yoga (good deeds) and Hatha (physical) yoga which would include any physical exercises that manipulate prana. (which is what you are refferring to). traditionally one cannot truly practice yoga (raising kundalini) without all of these aspects. When this unified approach is successful, the individual grows in awareness, the kundalini is drawn upward to the closest unopened chakra up the spine. When the individual releases karmic blockages through better understanding of the relationship of the self to the Divine, Then the chakra opens and Kundalini is attracted to it.

 

With this understanding, what you are talking about, although a very wonderful, respectable and beautiful experience, is a physical practice stimulating prana, not kundalini....

Edited December 5, 2010 by fiveelementtao

[RongzomFan]

nice stuff there, except none of that is true. You should read Khecarividya of Adinatha by James Mallinson.

Edited December 5, 2010 by alwayson

[Vajrahridaya]

Buddhists and Hindus share the same 84 Mahasiddhas. Shit, some of them like Gorakshanath and Matsyendranath are veritable kundalini masters

 

Some of the 84 Mahasiddhas have the complete mundane siddhis and others have that and Buddhahood. Being a Mahasiddha does not necessarily mean you are a Buddha. It just means you have Maha (Great) Siddhi (Power).

 

From Wikipedia... "By convention there are 84 Mahasiddhas in both Hindu and Tibetan Buddhist traditions (Edit VH: Actually they are all Indian Tantric Buddhists and none are Tibetan), with some overlap between the two lists. The number is congruent with the number of siddhi or occult powers held in the Indian Religions."

 

The list has nothing to do necessarily with liberation, just "great powers."

 

Besides, Hindus and Buddhists define liberation differently but don't define the Siddhi's differently.

Edited December 6, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[Aetherous]

Alwayson,

 

You should read Khecarividya of Adinatha by James Mallinson.

 

Is that book worth it? I like khechari, but I'm not sure if I should spend the money.

[RongzomFan]

Alwayson,

 

 

 

Is that book worth it? I like khechari, but I'm not sure if I should spend the money.

 

 

It is a very good book

 

It covers kundalini in addition to kechari

Edited December 6, 2010 by alwayson

[fiveelementtao]

nice stuff there, except none of that is true. You should read Kecharividya of Adinatha by James Mallinson.

Really? Its' not "True?" You mean Mata Kundalini is not a goddess worshipped in India?

 

Listen, we are on the wrong footing here....I am not trying to state it's objective "truthfullness". You asked a question about the validity of someone's idea of Kundalini, then proceeded to shoot down every opinion that you didn't like regardless of the evidence. If you had simply stated what you FELT to be true FOR YOU based on your experience, I would have said nothing. But you asked a question about the truthfullness ( which I interpreted to mean "traditionalness") of someone's post (Who admitted they had no traditional experience in Yoga or traditional Hindu practices) In the link you posted in your question it says,

Keep in mind that my answers come from personal

experience and observations, not from books. I've read very little about

kundalini.

I have no problem with his experiences. Everyone'e experience is "true" including yours and mine. I have not stated my personal opinion (which is different than traditional Yogic teaching) nor have I denied the "truthfullness" of your experiences or opinions. I have only stated the majority opinion of many traditional Indian Yogic masters.

 

Listen, you probably had a really wonderful spiritual experience similar to the ones written by the person in the link you posted. and it sounds very important to you to refer to it as kundalini. So, go ahead.

 

I have no need to read the book you mentioned. I'm sure it is a wonderful book. But when it comes to traditional Indian beliefs, I prefer to stick to the sources like the vedas, the tantras, the Gita, the ramayana etc...

 

I think you will find it is much more enjoyable to simply enjoy your spiritual practices and experiences rather than try to prove their "truthfullness." Because when you do so, you are forced then to try and disporove every other belief that is different than yours... IME, whenever someone tries to prove their experiences as "TRUE" or best etc... it always ends up in pointless argument.

My friend, I heartily accept your experiences as True and if you want to call it kundalini, then by all means go ahead. My opinion or the opinions of any one of the book authors you mention mean very little...

 

Anyway, I've had enough of this thread... Good luck...

Mike

[RongzomFan]

Really? Its' not "True?" You mean Mata Kundalini is not a goddess worshipped in India?

 

 

 

I have never seen kundalini worshiped. Even most priests have never heard of kundalini.

 

I am Indian by the way.

Edited December 6, 2010 by alwayson

[Vajrahridaya]

Vajrahridaya though coming from a buddhist perpective is also in line with Hindu tanrics in his understanding that Kundalini is directly connected to Karma and awareness.

 

Samkhya: Purusha (light of awareness) Prakriti (Karma or from a more Shaivite perspective, coagulated awareness activity)

 

 

Vajrahridaya has the traditional understanding. According to yogic masters, the only way to open chakras, is to stimulate kundalini through spiritual awareness.

 

Prana is also karma (which means action), just the energy of awareness. There is no kundalini as a separate individual being, it's just awareness, it's just light.

 

What I'm saying is that the tradition of Kundalini revolves around a mis-understanding of the nature of experience and comes from a deep attachment to a self/Self or "the divine" as a ground of being. Because Buddhists don't see experience as coming from that as a perspective, there is an entirely different goal in mind as well as an entirely different understanding of the process that is not merely conceptual, but deeply intuitive.

Edited December 6, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[Vajrahridaya]

I have never seen kundalini worshiped. Even most priests have never heard of kundalini.

 

I am Indian by the way.

 

Most Indians have no connection to the really esoteric forms of Hinduism. But, if you get into contact with a real school of Tantric Shaivism, you will see that it is worshiped. It's in all the Tantric Shaivite texts that talk about Kundalini.

[fiveelementtao]

I have never seen kundalini worshiped. Even most priests have never heard of kundalini.

"most"? so some have then...

 

OK gotta call you on this. If you are indian and have spent any time in India, you know there are multiple sects of hinduism and you know very well that there are tantric skakti worshippers and you know then that they consider Kundalini to be a form of Mata Shakti.

So, now, I know you are just trying to be contrary...

 

Time to go... bye...

[RongzomFan]

Most Indians have no connection to the really esoteric forms of Hinduism. But, if you get into contact with a real school of Tantric Shaivism, you will see that it is worshiped. It's in all the Tantric Shaivite texts that talk about Kundalini.

 

 

Anyway real kundalini is something that spirals up from the perineum till it hits the crown.

 

Even the ancient texts talk about perineum specifically.

Edited December 6, 2010 by alwayson

[RongzomFan]

"most"? so some have then...

 

OK gotta call you on this. If you are indian and have spent any time in India, you know there are multiple sects of hinduism and you know very well that there are tantric skakti worshippers and you know then that they consider Kundalini to be a form of Mata Shakti.

So, now, I know you are just trying to be contrary...

 

Time to go... bye...

 

 

Only one priest knew about kundalini, and he was a young guy like me. I asked about 7.

[Vajrahridaya]

Anyway real kundalini is something that spirals up from the perineum till it hits the crown.

 

Even the ancient texts talk about perineum specifically.

 

What I'm saying is that it's just awareness, there really is no kundalini. But, this perspective will slap a lot of faces and conceptions as well as attachments. I'm just sharing my opinion is all.

 

There is no real kundalini, and there is no spiraling either. Sometimes your body will rock or kind of spin, but that's just karmas being brought out of the unconscious due to awareness illuminating that.

 

Have you even had what is called, "kundalini awakening?" Have you received Shaktipat?

 

(Yes, I use the perineum to ground high vibration into my body)

Edited December 6, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[RongzomFan]

I don't believe in shaktipat.

 

Where did this stuff come from?

 

I have never come across it in the texts I read.

Edited December 6, 2010 by alwayson

[RongzomFan]

What I'm saying is that it's just awareness, there really is no kundalini. But, this perspective will slap a lot of faces and conceptions as well as attachments. I'm just sharing my opinion is all.

 

There is no real kundalini, and there is no spiraling either. Sometimes your body will rock or kind of spin, but that's just karmas being brought out of the unconscious due to awareness illuminating that.

 

Have you even had what is called, "kundalini awakening?" Have you received Shaktipat?

 

(Yes, I use the perineum to ground high vibration into my body)

 

 

Yes I understand your position. I just don't believe in it.

 

Why?

 

Because in the buddhist texts, even those that have experienced rigpa may not become liberated. They all say the best is to achieve Buddhahood while alive.